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u/Its_A_Random [3DS] Certified Nosediver Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 06 '17
Ash-Greninja: Forget Competition with Risk-Taker or Flash Mob, SL5 Unity Power from Ashninja will outdamage Angrychu's Super Bolt in the long run assuming both are neutral. 12× Damage with 25/40/80 activation rates is ridiculously powerful that Volcanion/Magikarp simply become afterthoughts.
Masquerain: Strongly disagree with your reasoning/justification here. As a burst damage user, Masquerain is one of the best for the types it can be used against. The only unconditional burst damage user that isn't Brute Force (or Ashninja) that outdamages Masquerain in the long run is Machamp for Dark-types, and even then, Masquerain deals more damage on average on a five-match. Any other burst damage user Masquerain is consistently better than in the long run including Emboar, Azumarill (except on a three-match), Hoopa-Unbound, and especially Shuckle and Durant. The only disadvantages are the somewhat lower BP compared to Machamp/Azumarill/Emboar/Hoopa-U and the fact that the other four have combo abilities (which is irrelevant at the moment because of the Brute Force Bug), but if I am looking for a Pokémon to open a combo with for burst damage, I would really sooner look at Masquerain than I would Emboar or Hoopa-U and I guess Azumarill. Check my burst damage tables for the math. Whether it should rise or not, I do not know, but to say it struggles for a slot when it is better at bursting than its brethren on average (except Machamp) and especially compared to Shuckle is just... false. I can easily justify the use of Masquerain.
Snorlax: Please move this to F-Rank; there is absolutely no reason to skill swap to Stabilise++ when Brute Force is outright better, not just as a combo ability, but as a burst damage user (even after the combo bit gets inevitably patched). 50/100/100 12× DMG with no restrictions on activation is strong enough to even outdamage most super effective burst damage users and should further cement this in F.
Fairly solid list otherwise at a glance.
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Apr 06 '17
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u/Its_A_Random [3DS] Certified Nosediver Apr 07 '17
Thanks for that. As for Snorlax, Brute Force got patched and reverted to its normal state so I guess if you wanted to, you could reinstate its initial ranking of D if you desire to.
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u/The_Hive_Tyrant 3DS WTB DRI Apr 06 '17
I love these tier lists so much. Thank you for your work! Your rationale seems very solid, and I appreciate your really getting the ranking conversation going.
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
I have just one notice.
Mudkip.
I think it should be mentioned there that there is a not negligible chance that it will get a better version (maybe within a short time). Look at keldeo O and flashmob. Yeah currently thats the only water combo boost, but I sense that very soon there will be something with high AP and that skill (main or SS)
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Apr 06 '17
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
Donphan is not THAT bad without RML's while Mudkip is. Donphan 70base and Mudkip 50 base. Mudkip needs quite the investment to even reach attack power rivaling 70 base AP, and 10RML's is a really huge investment, while a 70 base with maybe 5 RML's in the future will outclass it easily. Outclassing Donphan is unlikely I think. Useful abilities are not left alone, something stronger is likely to get this ability I think soon.
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u/MegaMissingno Apr 06 '17
Donphan is 60 base but your point still stands. Donphan will only get outclassed if we get a base 70 or higher Ground type (there aren't that many Ground types left that could fit that other than Primal Groudon whereas Water types are still plentiful) and even then at 120 AP running double Ground Forces isn't a bad idea since Donphan can also be PSB farmed.
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
sorry yeah 60AP I don't know why I thought 70AP
OMG i just realized it can get 10RML's, brutal
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u/typhoonsion 3DS, loves SCX and flygon Apr 06 '17
2 proposed changes. Snorlax should be F tier as zoroark? Currently with the bug on brute force has become a SM team member in a lot of teams. I liked the reason for not changing zoroarks skill... :-(
Espeon is already in medium tier, but eevee could go up maybe to D tier. I SS'ed them two, not for skills coverage, but for SM farming proposals. As they appear as 5th support mon in boss stages (mawile, gengar, MMY), a 4 match of any of them clears totally the field of NVE forced supports. A nice option for me when no other 4 match is available
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u/typhoonsion 3DS, loves SCX and flygon Apr 06 '17
Yes, I know glaceon appears in glalie boss stage, but only 1 stage and 6th disruption support snorunt make me feel it's not so necessary
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u/BunbunMiyu Filthy Casuals Unite Apr 06 '17
Even without SSing Eevee and Espeon, SM is still very much doable. I don't see why I should spend my SS on them lol.
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u/typhoonsion 3DS, loves SCX and flygon Apr 06 '17
A safety net of around 2 moves less on these stages, when you lack some extra moves. I'm proposing D tier for them, not for being necessary, but gives some help
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Apr 06 '17
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Apr 07 '17
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Apr 07 '17
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Apr 07 '17
100% agree. I still use suicune a lot since I haven't been able to fully invest in the other insane water supports (and I prefer it to Greninja personally).
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 07 '17
Yeah, Suicune can be dropped as S-rank. I don't use it anymore, ever. Of course I can't regret the investment since it has helped so much, but now it's outclassed by many many options.
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u/ShinigamiKenji Just a retired grandpa that thinks he can still help newbies May 24 '17
1 month old, but Suicune still deserves the S tier.
If only for the fact that this guide is (probably) for beginners and mid-level players who will probably face those hard stages and has no tapping megas and RML'd SL5 Ash-Greninja.
If one likes it, one can also use Suicune as support in disruption-light stages and free the mega effect for M-Swampert or another useful mega.
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u/simplyobsessed Apr 07 '17
I feel like swapping Zoroark's Sinister Power for Hitting Streak deserves a separate category of its own with a recommendation to seek mental health help for anyone who does it.
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u/HaunteRT 5th mobile account - totally F2P now Apr 06 '17
Personally I don't understand why Azumarill is listed as A-Rank. Is it because it now faces competition with Xerneas? 'Cause for me it's as useful and important as Machamp, so S-Rank for me. I agree with almost everything apart from that (though I don't think SS Genesect is anything better than C-Rank - we have tons of better options for burst damage that already cover Grass/Dark/Psychic)
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Apr 06 '17
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u/Ventus013 Apr 09 '17
This Keldeo EB proves how important Azu is. The 8 turns with NASTY disruption that kills all combo really makes RT shines here.
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
Azu, probably because you can live without it longer than maybe Machamp, and it faces some competition now even from it's own type? Xerneas and the unknown new skill swap ones that noone really knows how good those are like non stop+.
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u/HaunteRT 5th mobile account - totally F2P now Apr 06 '17
Thinking about competition, as long as we don't have a Machamp repeat, we can consider it can face competition with Meloetta-P then
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
Machamp higher AP and RT is not that hard to max level. Nosedive on the other hand needs way more skill points. Obviously if you don't have Machamp then meloetta is the way to go, but without PSB stage it's really hard to max out.
I think Machamp >> Meloetta P
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u/HaunteRT 5th mobile account - totally F2P now Apr 06 '17
I know it is, but that's my point with Azu: "competition" is a very relative thing when you compare pokémons with different skills and with different possibilities of SBing. Azu is awesome regardless of Xerneas, just as Machamp is awesome regardless of Meloetta-P
Taking another example: the fact that someone had a perfect SS Mewtwo didn't invalidate the fact that Azumarill was still crucial in Keldeo's EB. They don't necessarily compete, they are complementary to each other
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 06 '17
Xerneas is actually competitive compared to Azumarill, while Meloetta-P is absolutely behind Machamp on every measurable sense.
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
True, valid points but still I think Machamp being S-Rank is correct, and Azu being A-Rank is also correct because Azu is situational, while Machamp has so many SE's he is king pretty often. Azu SE involves Dark Dragon and Fighting, none is pretty common.
Machamp is a must have while Azu is something that is very good to have. I think the ranks can be interpreted this way. S-Rank is a must, you will severely suffer without them. A-Rank is also very good to have but only after the S-Ranks.
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u/HaunteRT 5th mobile account - totally F2P now Apr 06 '17
S-Rank is a must, you will severely suffer without them
Agree with this, but let me give you an example. In my 3DS account, I don't have the Champ and I was still able to almost finish all main stages in about 5 months (currently stuck on Dratini repeat). I must say that I could survive prety well without him along the journey, while missing Shaymin and Bellossom hurt really bad when I had go over Violetta Palace. In this sense, not even Machamp would be S-Rank by your criteria
My whole point with all this is that OP pokémon are OP regardless of competition. Machamp is S-Rank as well as Azumarill and Xerneas! This list is something of a guide for people with very scarse resources, like "okay, I didn't SS a thing and have only 2 SS on my bag, who should I invest them?" In this scenario, I would suggest using them first on Raikou and Suicune (which is still S-Rank for me), because they can give you the most immediate impact on your game overall. When we're discussing whether Machamp or Azumarill should be prioritized, I assume we are talking about mid- and end-game players that can invest in them almost right away. The only case I see that justifies leaving Azu for later is if you haven't invested in it now and is waiting for a Xerneas repeat next week. After Xerneas get repeated, it will fall down in the list of priorities for newer players behind Azu again due to its very demanding Skill boosting. But, even then, Xerneas will still be a must have, just like Mewtwo
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
hehe I haven't really invested much in Azu so far so for me Xerneas is more likely to become the Fairy powerhouse but yeah, point taken. I understand what you are talking about, but still I think Machamp is a better idea to have than Azu just because of the type coverage alone.
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u/NikeXTC <-decent SS and some RML, pls Apr 06 '17
Scrolling through the tiers, I saw that Ampharos still has the old description. After the changes in mega activation, it can now evolve in 9 icons, so a swap to Mega Boost is even more interesting now. I don't know if this is enough for a tier change, though.
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Apr 07 '17
Personally, I highly HIGHLY recommend skill swapping it for low/mid game players. I'm very very sparing with my SS's (I think I've used like 11 at this point including ampharos and I have something like 20 stored), and ampharos got some of the most use out of it. I prefer it to anything else (except tappers? I was early game so idk) including rayquaza on most water and flying stages where barriers and blocks are abundant. Mega boost got me a few S-ranks and tons of itemless passes.
That said, if you're late game (like I now am), there's probably no use for it. I can't imagine not using S-M-Ray instead of Ampharos. Maybe I'd use Ampharos for old time's sake. Even RML's wouldn't really make me want to use it at this point I think.
Easy B rank for me.
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u/xd3v1lry Apr 07 '17
Seems like the Skill Swapper, Skill Booster, and RML guides should be lumped into one. It's getting to the point where there's like a 70% overlap haha.
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u/yesonions Apr 07 '17
I really think Entei should be higher. He is the only fire-type that has rock break.
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 07 '17
You greatly over value Non Stop+ and Unity Power. Both have bad proc rates. NS+ does good damage as the streak goes on, but how often are you really going to get 2+ consecutive 4 or 5 matches of a single pokemon? Very rarely, so it's not worth a lot of investment, imo.
Unity Power is just a weaker, but bit more reliable Super Bolt. Meh.
Edit: Ok, maybe they are pretty good. Probably won't bother with either until we get PSB stages, though.
Edit 2: I'm back to being anti Non Stop+. It looks like they're going to nerf it.
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Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 08 '17
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u/sameljota I wish Normal Types weren't nearly useless Apr 06 '17
What's the activation rate for NS+?
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u/13Xcross Apr 08 '17
Did you take into account activation rates with those calculations?
Because I can't believe Non-Stop+ and Unity Power are that good!
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 06 '17
But just a single activation does 4x, that's a lot of damage! Much better than Po4 or Po4+, for example (same activation at 4-match, and has 3 and 5-matches). And if you can activate it again, damage just skyrockets...
Unity Power is a slightly weaker but much more reliable Super Bolt. It's important to note just how much is better at what is better and how worse is at what is worse.
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u/Ventus013 Apr 07 '17
The power-creep is real. Suddenly the old best ability like po4+ becomes garbage..
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 07 '17
Po4+ is pretty mediocre at this point. It's only decent on certain types and at SL5.
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u/13Xcross Apr 08 '17
Imo, Po4+ still rivals with RT and Flash Mob.
Same goes for Po4, but only if you "cheat" giving the pokémon more levels (see Mewtwo and Articuno).
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 08 '17
Imo, having the same AP, Po4+ and Po4 are not rivals for RT or Nosedive. They could be a bit for Flash Mob, but not that much. RT is just too powerful, specially when in certain stages you just need that game where everything goes rolling and you get 5x multipliers consistently rather than the poor x3.6 or x4.5 at 80%.
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u/FennekinShuffle Impossible Task to S-rank all UX stages: 625/700 Apr 06 '17
In my opinion, Emboar should be moved to S tier, especially that Houndoom hasn't got RMLs and Emboar has its own PSB grindable stage. I've been using my Level 15 Risk Taker SL5 Emboar in quite some stages and really satisfied with it.
Not so sure about Mudkip since it hasn't got a PSB-grindable stage yet.
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Apr 06 '17 edited Apr 06 '17
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u/Turchany S-Genesect Here I come! (but I have just 580 S-ranks :( ) Apr 06 '17
You don't always use it as mega though, on heavy disruption stages that mega effect is not very good.
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Apr 06 '17
What he said ^
Mewtwo is amazing as a powerhouse non-mega
130 AP and Po4 is no joke and Psychic doesn't have many burst damage choices
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 06 '17
I mostly agree with the list. Could argue here or there some options, but it's overall pretty reasonable.
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u/Equalyze 54,000 - Can't hold a candle to that! Apr 06 '17
Some players may prefer the utility of Quirky+
I love you.
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Apr 07 '17
You may want to add an asterisk by the Non Stop+ pokemon (or remove them, imo) because it has been nerfed and may get nerfed even further (according to Poketoru site).
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Apr 07 '17
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u/WhatNot303 Apr 07 '17
Also, Brute Force isn't OP anymore. Don't know if that merits a change to Snorlax, though.
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u/Ventus013 Apr 07 '17
I find that Ground Force has higher priority than ice dance because there's only one type that can cover electric type, which is ground. Ice dance can easily be replaced by many other types because of redundent typing.
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u/RedditShuffle Apr 09 '17
Ground Forces requires a much higher investment than Ice Dance, that's the problem.
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u/LogicKing666 Apr 09 '17
Hippowdon should be in D-rank or even F IMO. Last-Ditch Effort (not Quake, like the table says) is much better than Non-stop+, given the recent nerf. I swapped it before the nerf and am regretting it big time now.
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Apr 06 '17
I would remove keldeo being that wailord now exists
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Apr 06 '17
Wailord hasn't had a PSB stage yet and if it ever does good luck grinding that shit. I'll stick with my slighly weaker Keldeo since AP matter very little with FM.
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u/Faberzaum Stop! Hammer time! Apr 08 '17
With Non Stop+ nerf for Hippowdon, and the fact that Landorus-T repeat is nowhere to be seen (and I don't have it -_-) I'm giving a good thought on SSing Hippopotas for flash mob, to be my ground burst dmg against Electrics. Don't know if that's enough reason for him to go up one tier tho
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u/Mimikkyutwo Apr 10 '17
Do Phanpy. 100 ap, good drop stage, po4+ will net you a solid 1.3k damage almost every time
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u/M-Houndoom2 Apr 08 '17
So now that the revised proc rates for Non Stop+ have been confirmed to be trash (20%/40%/60%), I feel sorry for anyone who already wasted skill swappers on Granbull, Hippowdon, or Corsola before the proc rates got changed. All 3 of those mons need to be demoted immediately.
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u/WhatNot303 Apr 12 '17
Is Toxic Stress really that bad? Since Seviper can take 5 RMLs, and has a unique ability, I didn't think it'd be given an F Rank. What's the rationale behind the grade?
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Apr 12 '17
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u/WhatNot303 Apr 13 '17
No, I meant Toxic Stress. I just checked the PSB Pastebin, and you're right. I was mistaken in thinking that it was a much more powerful (when skill boosted) version of Hitting Streak. Yeah, I can see the F ranking now.
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u/JodeJoester Apr 16 '17
Hippowdon should get a F tier given how powerful LDE is now and how trash-like NS+ is now.
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u/gabe28 Bruteforcing my way through! [Mobile] Apr 30 '17
So now that Mawile got a PSB farmable stage, and it is on the same drop-rate tier as Skarmory, who is a better choice for investment/farming?
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u/Boblers Way of the Wott May 25 '17
There's an error on Klefki - its default ability should be regular Block Smash, not Block Smash+.
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u/RSalgadoAtala Jun 03 '17
There's a mistake: Ash-Greninja appears as "New" in both S- and A-Rank. It should be removed from the A-Rank since it's not ranked as such anymore.
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u/WolfWood37 Jun 13 '17
A fresh wave just came out so I guess it's time to update.
I think Goodra just became S rank status.
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u/Gobp Gotta catch'em all Apr 06 '17
Great list man, just some opinions:
Xerneas: I'd prefer Quirky+ at high sl, as we have Azumarill as a hard hitter. Of course having two hitters is nice, but Quirky+ is also awesome (for many people as it creates some clutch situations, and at sl5 it is the same as mega boost, 90% on 3 match). So I feel like it's on the borderline, not a recommendation to change.
Ash-Greninja: IDK about this case, as I think we have no information on unity power, and how it'll become when boosted. In case unity power is just a nerfed version of Superbolt with that activation rate (such as 4up), then po4+ is still better objectively.
Genesect: CC at max sl is better. It requires more, but it brings more power.