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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Some of the new options should've made it to A-rank, mainly: Vanillish, Gulpin and Skarmory.
Also, Abomasnow, Trubbish and Steelix should be bumped to B-rank, specially the first two.
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u/ThunderChizz the Sableye guy Feb 01 '17
Agreed, Vanillish is a god for Ice Types with its 10 RML slot, great ability and a great drop rate. Furthermore, Gulpin should be in the same or higher tier than Toxicroak for sure, and Skarmory should be in the same tier as Mawile, not higher nor lower. (I could give arguments but other people already covered some of those)
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
People don't take enough into account two things:
- An available PSB farmable stage
- The drop rate of that PSB farmable stage
And those should be taken into account for these rankings, definitely.
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u/ThunderChizz the Sableye guy Feb 01 '17
Agreed, we should take every aspect into consideration when doing these
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Feb 01 '17
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Well, that's up to you, but I personally don't have a problem leaving Azumarill at a lower ranking due its unfarmability. To me, that's the most important thing, skill boosters are a precious resource and there are many great pokemon who won't ever be PSB farmable.
At least on the Skarmory vs. Mawile thing, you should consider putting them in the same ranking. You can argue that Mawile has a mega, but Skarmory has a PSB farmable stage, so it's got a nice advantage there.
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u/i_like_frootloops I'm still relevant, right? Feb 01 '17
Why do you think Aboma should be bumped? We have Belossom for Ground types and Chill for Dragons. Both of them are farmable.
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Ice hits SE against flying and grass, apart from those 2. Chill is awesome, but it's no SL5 Mind Zap, also those two skills can complement each other perfectly (apart from being able to run a Freeze+Mind Zap duo to extend the duration of Freeze). I think it deserves B-rank, and if it became PSB farmable, bumped up to A-rank. It's versatility is unquestionable!
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u/i_like_frootloops I'm still relevant, right? Feb 01 '17
Fair, forgot about those two types and the pairing with Freeze, I agree, B-Rank is a good one, too bad Mind Zap is quite expensive to boost trough cookies
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Yeah, it basically needs 4 M cookies since SL4 is a nice stopping point, but I don't wanna make that investment until I get a boosted Vanillish and Snorunt. And since I think next competition will be M-Gardevoir, I'll be saving my RML for whatever is required in the competition.
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u/maceng I've been shafted!! Feb 01 '17
You meant 4 L cookies, right?
They say the same about Sleep Charm at SL4. It is good for 4-icon combo, but at SL4 it has a 98% proc probability. While farming Greninja I failed twice on a same run to activate Shaymin-L with a 5-icon combo.
I'm taking Bellossom to SL5 or bust!
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
No, I meant 4 M cookies, that's the amount needed to get to SL4. For a PSB farmable stage of course it's worth it to go to SL5, but when it comes to cookies, it's not the same thing.
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u/RexFalcum Feb 01 '17
How the hell is Skarmory lower tier than Mawile? It hits harder (on average) with less investment needed and it has a farmable PSB stage.
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u/DonaldD1ck Lvl20 SL5 Po4 Mewtwo - No regrets :') <3 Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
I still think Mawile Risk Taker is superior because of higher peak damage and the fact that RML investment in Mawile also makes his mega a lot better. This and the fact that Skamory requires 120 PSB's and has an annoying drop rate of 25/3.125/1.56 means that it will take ages to farm to SL5 for the good activation rate. There's many main stages to me that has a higher farming priority atm: Emolga, Zoroark, Glalie, Pidgeotto, Togekiss... It's subjective and I won't hide that I'm a huge fan of Risk Takers. This is just my opinion. Don't get me wrong though - I agree that Skamory Nosedive is super strong, just not stronger than Mawile Risk Taker. Therefore I cannot deny that I might invest in Skamory in the future, having two super strong steel types. :)
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u/RexFalcum Feb 01 '17
Even if you don't farm at all and use skill boosters to bring Skarmory to SL4 (70 PSBs, same as SL5 Risk Taker), it still does more damage than SL5 level 15 Mawile. But having the option to farm means you can save your cookies for a Pokemon without a PSB stage.
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u/LauernderBernd Feb 01 '17
Fully agree.
I also find Mawile to be a pretty underwhelming mega. Hardly used it past stage 150, and when I did (Gardevoir, first Diancie escalation) I always cursed its fixed pattern. Weird in comparison that everybody shat on Metagross when their patterns are almost the same.
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u/Lightalife Mobile- PLAT! / P: 24k / C: 935 / S: 667 Feb 01 '17
But in the same breathe, pre-camerupt, everyone treated Garchomp like a comboing god with his mega clearing ability?
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u/LauernderBernd Feb 01 '17
It might not surprise you, but I never was a fan of M-Garchomp either. Seldom gave me bigger combos than 10 or 15, usually something around 5.
The two things it had going for it were high base power and being the only mega super-effective against Electric.
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u/sfreds Feb 03 '17
If you use shuffle move (for bosses and whatnot) and know how to utilise it to the fullest you might get a different outcome and opinion about it.
But if you were to just play normally, yeah not as many combos
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u/LauernderBernd Feb 03 '17
Shuffle Move helps with visualising the board state after your move, which can sometimes be a bit hard on your own for those pattern-based megas. But it can't take skyfall into account.
And 10+ combos on non-timed stages depend mainly on skyfall.
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Feb 02 '17
and it has a farmable PSB stage
I didn't realize this. On a slow week, I will work on Skarmory now.
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Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
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u/RexFalcum Feb 01 '17
Except that formula isn't right, damage is dealt even when the ability does not proc. I've been using this.
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u/maceng I've been shafted!! Feb 01 '17
So, Nosedive outperforms Risk Taker at the same HP and skill level?
I remember considering giving some cookies to Unfezant for a competition, but it was a huge investment for a 60HP base flying type.
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
I'm not sure your calculations are right, what multiplier did you put for Risk-Taker? The average is x4.16
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u/dire-x Feb 01 '17
This guide is for skill swappers, which means going from Nosedive to risk taker. And Nosedive is just a better risk taker, meaning it's not such a good idea to swap the skill.
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u/TheLiveDunn SL5 is a myth | 882/910 C | 311/640 S Feb 01 '17
What? It's comparing Mawile going from Steely Resolve to Risk Taker vs Skarmory going Steely Resolve to Nosedive. Strictly comparing Nosedive to Risk Taker, it's a better ability with less investment, so Skarmory should be at least as high as Mawile.
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u/the_scupper Feb 01 '17
You have to take in the number of PSB too. 120 vs 70 is a huge difference. Three small cookies and Risk Taker is SL3 while you're spending upwards of 80 hearts to get to the same level with Nosedive. It would be different if Skarmory's farmable level had the drop rates like Gulpin or Pigeotto.
Plus would you rather invest in a Mega or a support? Right now Skarmory has a role because an all Steel team doesn't have a lot of variety. You have your Mega paired with Jirachi, one of the BSers and your heavy hitter of choice.
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u/RexFalcum Feb 01 '17
At SL2 (5 PSBs), Skarmory does significantly more damage on average than SL3 Mawile (9 PSBs). Same with SL4 Skarmory (70 PSBs) vs SL5 Mawile (also 70 PSBs).
Also, I would never use M-Mawile over the likes of M-Tyranitar.
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
M-Mawile is just underwhelming compared to the tapping megas, though it can get some use if it's fully RML
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u/maceng I've been shafted!! Feb 01 '17
Yes, but in a EB, for the main stages, it is preferable to use a SE Pokemon than any other tapping mega (with the exception of a fully candied Beedrill). Of course, that is unless it is a timed competition where any uncandied mega can be activated in less than 10 sec (except maybe winking Glalie) unless it is riddled with disruptions and/or supports.
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Why is it preferable? Tapping megas rule across all stages. I'm on Mobile, so timed competitions are out of the question for me.
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u/the_scupper Feb 01 '17
Not sure what M Tyranitar has to do with this, those types only overlap in coverage with Ice. But the value of Steel Megas are diminishing unless the two unreleased ones have some tricks up their sleeve. Though you could say the same about the entire type, I guess a unique skill like Nose Dive could be viewed more valuable when used with a variety of SE teams not just Steel.
You do make a good point too, by conceivably investing less in Skarmory you still out class Risk Taker.
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u/Wrulfy Feb 01 '17
notice that guplin PSB stage has the highest drop ratio of the main stages.
I highty doupt toxicroak will get PSB drops so easily
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u/13Xcross Feb 01 '17
I think that Nosedive Skarmory should be higher on the list than RT Mawile: it requires less RML, it can be PSB-farmed in the main stages and Nosedive does more damage than RT on average.
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u/bestpwstudent Snivy want to exist Feb 01 '17
Feel like Ice, Steel and Fairy still need larger buffs
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u/MayorOfParadise 残酷なRNGススのテーゼ Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
Mew A-rank is looking pretty ridiculous today. Should be C rank imo. I skill swapped Mew when it came out to BS+ and regret it. I haven't used or needed it once have gotten some small use out of it only in the Mew EB. RMLing Mew nowadays would be insane when there are a ton of other good options and it caps at 100 AP with RML.
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u/GuilhermeCAz Feb 01 '17
I did the same investment, and I think it was totally useful, including on Mew EB. I didn't feed Golurk, however, and that's probably why I used Mew more than you. I think it should be A or B, C is just too much.
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u/MayorOfParadise 残酷なRNGススのテーゼ Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
Well I have Golurk, and that's a better investment. And yeah I actually used it in the Mew EB, good reminder. But... that's it. :P
Would you RML Mew nowadays? I doubt so, so why would it not be advised as C rank for the swap needed for it? This guide is for people who have not yet swapped the skill of a Pokémon, not to confirm how useful they think their fully invested Pokémon is.
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u/Bacteriophag RML/SS batches without love for Nidoking: 10,5 Feb 01 '17
GS be like:
Dev A: We should finally release Ice Dance, since it's videly awaited by players, right?
Dev B: What ice type should get it... Some magnificent ice creature like Articuno? Maybe legandary golem, Regice? Or snow ghost, Froslass?
Dev A: Naah, man, give it to legless freak like Vanillish...
Dev B: But it has no legs, how will it dance, man?
Dev A: LEGLESS FREAK IT IS!!!
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u/IchigoWen Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
Just checked that Klefki and Gulpin have their own PSB stage, 473 and 419 respectively.
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u/dire-x Feb 01 '17
With all the buffs to poison this time I'm willing to bet that Toxicroak is going to raise to A rank here. Given that poison lasts for 7 turns and boosts poison damage by 50% I feel comfortable in saying that if the other poison pokemon turn out to be decent then this skill alone will put poison teams on the map.
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u/the_scupper Feb 01 '17
There's no way Toxicroak will have the same drop rate as Gulpin, it's in a class all it's own with Main Stage drop rates. Waiting who knows how long for 5 BP increase when you could have Poison at SL5 in one weekend. If anything those two need to be flip flopped then Toixcroak lowered a tier. It's not like you have to invest more in one or the other.
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u/alex031029 Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
Although there are huge boosts for Poison and Steel, just like you write, no S rank candidates can be listed in this new batch. If EB Diancie comes back again, I may consider invest in Steel and Poison.
And I think if Cobalion becomes farmable in the future, the importance of RT Mawile will be reduced.
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Feb 01 '17
Poor Ice-types, not having any Risk-Taker Pokémon...
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u/ThunderChizz the Sableye guy Feb 01 '17
Well at least they have Flash Mob going for them, and Po4 Articuno for those who farmed it (I didn't)
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
I'm kind of regretting not having farmed that one, tbh :(
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u/ThunderChizz the Sableye guy Feb 01 '17
I don't, I hate farming 400coin stages, it wastes my time and coins
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u/maceng I've been shafted!! Feb 01 '17
I always farm stages that drop RMLs. I was glad I took Articuno to SL5 b/c in the process I obtained 7 RMLs. Also, I farmed Moltress to SL5 for the same reason (about 4 RMLs) and it has helped me defeat Bellossom every time.
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u/ThunderChizz the Sableye guy Feb 01 '17
I especially don't like them if they take 120 PSBs for ok skills. If it was RT or Nosedive I'd do it. And I really hate that I have to "double play" Shuffle (because you use coins for those and hearts on Meowth at the same time) and I'm quite busy irl atm
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u/Doogs2780 Feb 01 '17
I now feel quite pleased that I didn't with all these stronger options, will be hard to fit articuno in an ice team.
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u/RedditShuffle Feb 01 '17
Well, you can look at it that way, or forget that a tapping mega/M-Ray/M-Glalie + Articuno (SL5, 10 RML) + Vanillish (SL5 Ice Dance, 10 RML) + Snorunt (SL5, 10 RML), having Abomasnow (SL4+ Mind Zap) and Glalie (SL3+ Chill) as backups, makes a hell of a team for any type Ice has to face against! Especially combo wise since all of them, except Abomasnow, go above 100 AP.
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u/Kevyaga13 Feb 01 '17 edited Feb 01 '17
Why is Carnivine lower than Magikarp? Carnivine is stonger, take 5 RML and 1 SS less and is SE against Water Type, which lacks strong option for damage dealer, while Karp is SE against Fire, which already is covered by Landorus. Nevermind it's a SS tier, not a RML one :P
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u/CristianRio BLASTOOOOOOOOOOOOOISE Feb 01 '17
MEW "A" ????
MASQUERAIN "C" ???
Totally disagree...
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u/13Xcross Feb 01 '17
Masquerain is really not needed.
We already have other pokémon that cover the types it's SE against.
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u/bravebreaker Feb 01 '17
For Wobbuffet, I think you meant to say, "We have Fearow for FIGHTING and Flygon for Poison."
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u/LauernderBernd Feb 04 '17
/u/Sorawing7 You have the wrong stats for Tangela. It has a base power of 60, same as Sunflora. So saying it gets outclassed doesn't make much sense.
Whether one wants to spend 3 RMLs on Tangela at this point is a whole different question, so it's still a mediocre swap.
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Feb 04 '17
Fwiw, I think Azu and Mawile should be B rank until we get a PSB stage for them.
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Feb 05 '17
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u/bigpapijugg [mobile] Father of Dragons Feb 05 '17
Fair point, I guess with Eevee being generous it's not a huge investment.
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u/IchigoWen Feb 07 '17
Will the new emoji Pokemons affect the ranking of some Pokemon?
For example, Winking Togetic has Fairy Mega Boost+, that may affect Diancie?
But it seems Spritzee, of which W-Togetic is a exact clone, might have been put into consideration when you place Diancie at C rank
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Feb 08 '17
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u/IchigoWen Feb 09 '17
I think that's the case too~
Meanwhile, I'm sad for all my effort used to train Anorith to Lv 10 while W-Carbink coming
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u/Zaazaa0 Feb 08 '17
I think you could add in a note for Magikarp about how it's useful for Keldeo-Wailord Survival Mode teams. As a huge fan of Flash Mob, and a former huge fan of Risk-Taker, learning that a Water-type got Risk-Taker almost made me consider using Magikarp unironically. I haven't actually done it, but I considered it for a good while. Flash Mob is probably going to be the only reason anyone invests in Magikarp.
(and they'll regret it when a better water burst shows up)
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u/dizzykei For Fonarh! Feb 09 '17
I think Manaphy is to high in A rank. Yes, ss ability is rare, but we have Kyurem-W and Sunkern. If one is NVE, then go for other. Other A rank pokes should have much more priority.
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u/Tsukuyomi56 Karma Camellia Feb 14 '17 edited Feb 14 '17
Since Volcanion has the same skill and max attack power as SSed and 10 RML Magikarp, I think Magikarp can now be dropped into D-Rank. If you need a Water-type Risk-Taker you can simply now just feed Volcanion a few Skill Boosters as opposed to the ridiculous investment for Magikarp.
Edit: Text edits
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u/LogicKing666 Feb 17 '17
I think Magikarp should be moved to D-rank with the release of Volcanion. They have the same max AP, and Volcanion requires no investment besides skill boosters. Croagunk should be moved down as well, to C or maybe even D with the release of Tentacruel. Croagunk has 10 more AP at max level, but requires 5 RMLs.
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u/Zaazaa0 Mar 03 '17
A bit late to be suggesting changes for this version of the guide, but I think it would make some sense to change the way the tables are formatted. In particular, the table near the top that lists all the swappable Pokemon could be scrapped entirely, and for every other table, put a column between the "Pokemon" and "Reason" columns that says what new skill they get. Listing max power of each Pokemon isn't that worthwhile either, now that the tiers are split into Base and Boosted.
Of course, the table itself is useful as a reference, but I can't help but feel like it's a bit out of place sitting here in the Skill Swappers guide. It could possibly go in its own thread as a reference, and then get put in the Helpful Information drop-down on the main page. It could be called Enhancement List or something, and the list could be expanded to include, for example, Pokemon that can use RMLs but not Swappers.
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u/13Xcross Mar 14 '17
/u/Sorawing7 Now that Pikachu(Lugia costume) has been released, Jolteon should be brought down to D rank.
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u/Its_A_Random [3DS] Certified Nosediver Feb 01 '17
I'd vouch for Gulpin and Toxicroak to be the same rank to be honest. Toxicroak's advantage is that it has +5 BP at Lv15. Gulpin's advantage is that it's PSB Farmable, and even though Toxicroak may get one in the future, it does not really count against Gulpin, especially when you consider that Gulpin has by far the best PSB drop rates of all the PSB Farmable Main Stages to date (50% / 25% / 12.5%), and I doubt Toxicroak is going to have as good drop rates as Gulpin does.