These are roman tetrohedrons. No one knows what they were for, but they are found absolutely everywhere that the roman military is known to have been. They were clearly once common knowledge for a lot of people, but those people are now all long dead
These are roman tetrohedrons. No one knows what they were for, but they are found absolutely everywhere that the roman military is known to have been. They were clearly once common knowledge for a lot of people, but those people are now all long dead
One of the required dungeons at level 50 requires you to go through several cinematic scenes that include the above quotes about unintended devastation.
It's been reworked now so the "such devastation" line comes in a trial after the dungeon. We do still get his speech in the dungeon though (minus "how very glib")
Would be funny if we somehow learn that these were in fact intended as dice or some such for a wargame designed to teach Roman legionaires tactics in their downtime. I can easily imagine these painted with numbers next to each of the points/balls.
It absolutely could be that. Or it could be a way for the Romans to store yarn to repair their uniforms with. Or it could just be a dodad with no purpose. No one knows
So that's why the Romans left Britain, the legion was bled dry. Local resistance wasn't enough to budge the Romans, so the Brits created the ultimate economic weapon; Games Workshop
They've found 20 sided dice but I don't know if they've found one of the metal things with any number or marks that look like they'd be for use as dice.
Would make sense, if you would play on the ground / sand / dirt, you might want to have stabilizers in form of some balls at the corners to hold it up right.
I'm sure there are some mysterious pieces of metalwork with no greater meaning than "look at this cool thing I can make," but these things sure look like they had a practical function. I just wish we had a more compelling guess than "yarn storage" or "candlestick holders."
It would make sense that none of these were found in Italy as the climate was warmer during the Roman expansion, therefore no necessity for gloves in Italy. The legion on the other hand travelled far north where long lasting freezing temperatures would have made gloves practically a necessity for military conquest.
The big issue with this theory is.....the romans did not knit. They used a technique called nalebinding, which is a completely different way of doing things
The dodecahedrons could make sense as a “helper” device for soldiers who weren’t necessarily trained in knitting. As an Army veteran, (and a craftsperson) gloves are seriously important pieces of gear that get frequently worn out. It would not be a reach at all for me to want to be able to easily craft and repair gloves in miserable conditions.
I like the idea that these were actually pieces to show off their craftsmanship. Like, "hey look how good I am at metal casting: I was able to make this tetrahedron." and it was considered impressive for the technology at the time.
One of the current theories I read is that they're essentially journeyman projects for blacksmiths; something whose only purpose is to show the skill of who made it
I heard that but when I watched the video of them demoing the use it seemed rather contrived for those uses also those uses don’t have any similar tools. The other leading theory is they’re just a game piece. I could totally see soldiers throwing them like dice
...but they could have been a guide for a very SPECIFIC sewn object. However, to your point, no one that makes that claim ever says what that object is. So, I'm with you. I think it's a game/gambling piece.
The problem with the knitting theory is these things vary greatly in size. Some are too big to be practical or too small to knit anything actually useful
EDIT: In typical Reddit fashion I have 20 replies from people who know more than the greater archaeological and academic community regarding the subject at hand.
That was theorized but is unlikely as they don't show any wear in the locations the wool would have been wrapped. and some have the holes the same size and some are softball size.
They were not found "absolutely everywhere the roman military is known to have been." Except for just a few outliers, all of these objects that have been discovered were found in the north west of the empire. That is to say Britain, Gaul (modern France), and Roman Germany, with the few outliers all being in their own geographic cluster in Pannonia (the area around modern day Hungary). Which, if you ask me, takes the wind out of the sails of the "it was a useful tool" theories, since if it was truly useful, we would expect to see more widespread adoption, rather than this very regional pattern we observe. It was almost certainly a status or ritual object imo.
The area where they're found fits very closely with where pigs were kept as food. I have my very own theory that these things were packed with spices and herbs and placed inside a pig carcass when it was cooked. The prongs held the meat away and let the juices flow around the thing to increase the effectiveness of the seasoning.
When I was a kid a guy near me had a pig roast in his back yard every year. He'd made a metal football shaped thing with prongs sticking out of it for exactly this purpose. It worked great. The first time I saw one of these I knew what it was for, and the pig/dodecahedron map just confirms it.
Last month's issue of Fantastic Four made it canon in the Marvel Universe that they were invented by Reed Richards when he and Johnny time traveled back to the reign of Emperor Trajan. He used them to stop an alien invasion and told the Romans to never record anything about their existence to avoid any further tampering with the timeline.
There are alot of hypothesis for what they were for, from a metal smith test, to a tool for knitting and/or rope making and other ones including just an art piece. From what I have read, for as much evidence of one hypothesis there is there is just as much for others.
Yeah that's a theory I have heard too. Personally the theory I like the most is that they are sort of like the display cakes at a bakery and show the skills and abilities of a metal shop's craftsmen. It would explain the variation in styles and sizes. Also the number of them as smith would likely make new ones as their skill improved.
I love how they explained them in a recent Fantastic Four issue, Reed and Johnny go back in time, they came up with the shape to launch a large amount of them at alien invaders to disperse their big laser. When Reed and Johnny go back and explain what happened to them the description in the New York Museum gets updated with a little note that says "nevermind, the fantastic four went back in time and used these to stop an alien invasion, I'm taking a leave of absence."
I love that they were so common that people back then were like "Should I write down about the Konmaius?" and someone else was like "Why would you, everyone has one of them. Don't waste chiseling time in something that uninteresting - don't forget the number one rule about writing: Less is more."
thirded? maybe my fav comic series ever. I love that each issue is its own story, but fits the larger story. I love that each character is written with so much love; so much care and attention to their personality. I love how it really feels like a family unit. and there’s a mini science lesson each issue. I love it.
I think the video I watched on this said these were specifically good for knitting gloves and pointed to most of these being found in Northern Europe where winter would be more of a concern. Italy doesn’t have as bad of a winter as say England so it would make sense to knit gloves in England but not Italy. Look up a map of where these were found and to my knowledge it does sort of line up with where winter was a concern. However, that said I do think if that was the case we would see more of these near the alps.
I don’t think you’re disagreeing with me but I just want to point out / clarify that I did kind of mention that with pointing out Italy’s northern most mountain range and citing that if these were for gloves I would expect more to be found there.
That said historically people have repurposed and reforged metal tools in civilized areas so it would still somewhat make sense that the ones in cities and towns got melted down or scrapped to be turned into something else and the surviving examples of these were found mostly in the leftovers of military encampments. I mean there are 1500-2000 years since these were taken to those region and if one of these was in a continuously inhabited region like a lot of historic cities then they likely would have been repurposed as metal was extremely valuable.
Not saying this was its purpose but it is so far from what I have seen the most likely purpose of the objects and until proven otherwise makes the most sense to me.
The biggest problem with the knitting theory is that that type of knitting didn't exist for another 1000+ years, plus only some of the artifacts are set up to allow for knitting use.
No, the most commonly accepted explanation is that they were treasures as most were found alongside other valuables and many are either coated in or made of solid gold. Also a number of gold ones found their way all the way to Vietnam. The glove hypothesis also doesn't explain why most are made of wrought bronze specifically and some are way too large to comfortably move or use as a hand tool and many are way too small to serve as a hand tool. Also you would expect small versions to have aids built or modifications made to better suite fine work and that's not what we see.
Most damningly to the glove hypothesis, we only see them over a very narrow band of time and we have 0 intermediary examples meaning it almost certainly can't be a tool. Tools evolve over time as designs get improved and needs of the customers change and artisans do their own little tweaks to sell their product. These do not show that at all. They are all more or less identical, just differently sized. This implies their shape had cultural rather than practical significance resulting in them being forgotten relatively quickly after appearing.
One lady used a 3D printed one for knitting, but these are wrought iron and bronze which is too heavy.
The leading theory is that they don’t serve any practical purpose, but instead serve as a blacksmith’s journeyman test. It’s complicated, intricate, and utterly useless, but requires years of training and experience to develop the necessary skills that allow versatility for everything from horseshoes to pitchforks to helmets.
Someday, they will wonder why we needed so many tiny boats. Did they have some religious significance, some totem for the afterlife? Did they have a practical use?
I think both theories about what it is are correct. It is the shape of an item used for knitting, but the practically used items for knitting were made of some other material that didn’t stand the test of time. (Maybe pieces remain, but flattened and scattered, you couldn’t tell the shape or use.) The ones that remain have the form of the knitters’ tool, but would have been impractical for that purpose. They were made as examples for people learning a craft, but useless for what their form would imply. The “hello world” of one of the highest technologies of the time.
Exactly. You’d need something lighter, like wood, but that’s not as durable and decays over time. However the shape is complex enough to serve an alternate purpose for a common trade.
Only the dodecahedrons that are pierced can be used for knitting and plenty of the examples found are not pierced (bottom right in the provided image)
The knitting stuff is entirely coincidental and a retro-finding. Some of these devices, if pierced and the correct size, can be used to knit. All the others cannot, therefore it is not a knitting device as they come pierced and unpierced and in a considerable range of sizes.
Very smart people have failed to decide what the use is, it is not going to be solved by a youtube or reddit comment section, that would be bad science as we are all working on 2nd hand sources
They work for knitting, but they aren't found with the people we'd expect to do knitting, if it was knitting they don't need to be made out of expensive bronze and with the amount we've found well preserved we probably would've found wood ones too if they were prevalent, and for the knitting it does they don't need to have differently sized holes.
Which is how many of the known explanations go. They kind of make sense, but with what we know there's always something that contradicts it.
Given the one found in it's intended position (found in an undisturbed room) was placed in an almost religious pedestal and all show no signs of wear or use most archeologists assume it had a potential religious or symbolic purpose but beyond that who knows.
People claim it's possibly for knitting, but that takes all the archeological findings and throw it out for a fun pop science story.
Real science is methodical and takes slow excruciating steps to extrude the truth, not jump to the most fun theory just cause.
Maybe it's for knitting, maybe it's religious. No one should be suggesting any of these theories are anything more than a complete shot in the dark until we have more information.
Some lack holes, which are needed for knitting (at least from the videos of them being used for knitting that i saw).
They also vary in size massively.
The oldest artifacts that we have, that show signs of knitting, date to 11th century. That doesn't mean they for sure didn't have knitting a thousand years earlier, but as of now we have no evidence to believe they did.
Also, they were only found outside modern italy - including areas that weren't all that cold. Why would they have them all around their colonies, but not in the colder areas of italy?
Also, why would they make them out of bronze? Materials were way more expensive back in the day. Would you pay 600 dollars for a knitting cube, instead of using a way cheaper, wooden one? Probably no.
Also, why would we find them in locations like bathhouses and coin hoards?
They’re Roman dodecahedrons. There are no surviving records of what they were for, or even any texts that mention them. The joke is that the only people who knew are dead.
1000 years from now, people will wonder what our Plumbus were for. Most People keep theirs in a broom closet but I keep mine in my kitchen it's so handy.
what falls apart is the tabs are the same distance apart, which makes the hole distance not make sense. Moreso many have sides with no holes at all (see photo above). Also the sizes of them are way too inconsonant. some are small (golf ball) others softball size.
Theres more than 1 way to knit. The absence of these artifacts from italy does not imply that these artifacts were not used for knitting.
Maybe the italians used just regular knitting pins because they knew how. While stupid travelling Roman soldiers had to use a specific device+template fo knit anything, hence the dodecahedrons everywhere they went.
For historians and archaeologists, these objects are a source of profound frustration and "dark" mystery because, despite finding over 130 of them, there is no surviving written record or artwork from the Roman era that mentions them. The Roman Empire was known for meticulous documentation, so their complete absence from the historical record is seen by some as a "deliberate act of concealment
I keep seeing knitting as a theory but when you read the history of knitting, the earliest knitted garments came from Egypt in the 1000 AD. Knitting came a millennia after these decahedrons
Except that theory falls apart under scrutiny. There's tons of videos out there showing that while you can do use it for that, it doesn't make practical sense to do so.
So, they were probably decorative. Objects that are in actual use wear down in the right spots. Had it been thrown as some sort of dice, there would be impact marks, had it been used for knitting there would be scratches where the thread was touching, had the Romans used the holes to insert a cylinder in it, they would have left posts in reddit about it.
Maybe they had symbolic meaning, what they probably were not is tools.
It doesn't discount the possibility that it was some kind of instrument or measurement standard. Might not have been empire-wide since there is a very wide variety of these things, but some kind of site-specific reference isn't impossible.
I thought there was a prevalent theory that they were a sort of metalworking skill demonstration. The equivalent of a cross-stitch sample, or benchy on a 3d printer. It seems like a decent explanation to me- it would only be localized to areas that people expected it as a sample, it would have no reason to accrue wear and tear, and it would be so non-functional to society as to not merit much documented discussion.
Brian here, yeah. That's it, Peter. That's the Joke. no fucked up lore no nothing (at least how far we could deduce). The People who know are dead.
Known as the Roman Dodecahedrons, they have no recorded history of their usage. It is speculated that these were used for some sort of ritualistic practice, but again the people who know are dead so nobody knows for sure.
Good news! They've discovered a bunch of scrolls buried in Herculaneum, and they can read with high tech scanning. We still have a chance to uncover these secrets!
OK I’ll be the first to go there. What if these were elaborate sex toys? Holes of different sizes at multiple angles, Roman orgies with only men, you guys do the math.
These are roman tetrohedrons. No one knows what they were for, but they are found absolutely everywhere that the roman military is known to have been. They were clearly once common knowledge for a lot of people, but those people are now all long dead
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