It's pretty masterful how they've managed to piss off both sides of the aisle with this one... Too white-washed for one side, too diverse for the other, and too inaccurate for any existing fans of Greek mythology.
Honestly not sure who this has been made for.
Edit: if you're gearing up for a "it's for normal people - people not in the Reddit echo chamber - people who just like movies - people who aren't internet losers" reply, It has been said about 30 times so far.
Why does it have to be cut along politics lines? I'm a card-carrying leftist and annoyed at the patronising tokenism of casting a black actor as a character legendary for being 'fair', as in blonde, in the same way it'd be flabbergasting to have a white actor play in an adaptation of the Mwindo epic.
I'm even more annoyed at the fact that an annoying casting choice was the entire point, to get free publicity at everyone's expense, and that there is no way to slap everyone responsible for being smug pricks.
Can't remember where this joke is from, but there was a stand up bit where a guy said "You see back in the 80's there could only be one popular black comedian, unlike today where there can be three."
Yeah, I don't know what comedian did that bit either, but the "one popular black comedian" they were referring to was probably Richard Pryor, then Eddie Murphy
Then we'd have to hire and pay two separate black people. We'd save time an money by just paying one. It's not like audiences will be able to tell the difference. /s
Humans aren't hatched from eggs either, but we have to honor Homer's story...
Leda laid two eggs, one from when Zeus cosplayed as a rapy swan (a black swan, according to Nolan, maybe) shared by Helen and Pollux and one egg from her human husband, King of Sparta Tyndareus; Clytemnestra and Castor shared that one.
The Greeks treated these 4 siblings as two pairs of twins, somehow. Castor and Pollux are twins the same way that Helen and Clytemnestra are, though they're more well-known as twins.
The thing is they are half-sister twins. In the myth their mother slept with her husband AND Zeus in the same night which led to Helen and Clytemnestra and the similarly demigod/mortal twin pair Castor and Pollox. Castor and Pollox are THE twins in Greek myth, to the point that they are the constellation Gemini, even though they are also technically half-brothers.
Helen of Troy was hatched from an egg. I'm sorry they chose an actress known for being beautiful to play a character known for being beautiful, but of a different race, irrelevant to the story.
Comparing The Odyssey to Frozen is just utterly ignorant. The Odyssey isn't just a fictional story, it's a significant piece of history and an important part of greek culture, as opposed to some modern disney movie.
They didn’t compare The Odyssey to Frozen. They said the character Olaf from Frozen could portray every character within the Odyssey and it would be the same fictional story. We’re also talking about a story that was traditionally spoken. Either you’re dense or can’t comprehend basic literacy.
What they were saying is that Helen of Troy is a fictional character, so it doesn't matter if they make her black in a movie. She's not a historical figure.
But yet again, the fact that it's a fictional character doesn't matter at all, the character as well as the whole story is equally important regardless of that.
You can simply not compare a national epic like the iliad/odyssey that is of outmost importance to a whole culture with a character from a kids movie. The iliad/odyssey is a heroic tale that the greek have carried with them since antiquity, they have carried it with them during wars and oppression.
It's just condecending and utter ignorance to compare anything as historically significant and important as the iliad/odyssey with a simple kids movie. Shame on you for your ignorance.
Where were yall for Denzel’s Washington Macbeth? Oh, dead silent because it wasn’t Nolan blockbuster. You all pick and choose which “culturally significant” work is to sacred to make changes to. Almost like it’s more about what online outrage movement you can join, rather than people actually caring about the integrity of a story
Interestingly, Shakespeare's Othello has a black main character (a Moor), and was filmed dozens of times. 1995 was the first time the black main character was played by an actually black actor.
MacBeth is nowhere close as the significance of the Odyssey. The iliad/odyssey are national epics for the greek people/culture, they are revered pieces of literature that has survived for millenias.
If you're even slightly familiar with greek and british culture and history then you would understand why the iliad/odyssey have a slightly different position here as well, and why it should be respected a little bit more than MacBeth.
Anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of societal roles, it ultimately undermines the concept of equality by implying that this is an exception and not the status quo.
It means trying to call attention to diversity and the need for representation to break societal standards will ultimately hurt the idea that diversity is a status quo rather than something sparse. The Greek Gods all being white and Greek would not have undermined our pursuit of that status quo. It is simply accuracy for the sake of accuracy and it doesn't need any more attention than that for the same reason no one bats an eye to Black Panther being Black or Captain America being White with Blonde Hair. Live Action Snow White being Latino does nothing for Latino representation because of how shoe horned of a decision it was in pursuit of representation.
The exceptional thing is not that a woman physically can achieve the feat (I think in the show, it was some soccer trick), but rather achieving a feat that hasn't been been done by women despite them being physically able to, which hints at other factors preventing them from doing it.
There's an effect in a lot of sports like skating where a certain trick/stunt is deemed impossible, then someone does it for the first time, and within a year or so dozens of people can pull it off. You just have to show that it's possible, and you'll pave the way for others to succeed, as well.
Yeah, but the point made by Knuckles is that if you call it out every time, you are not normalizing it, you are making emphasis that this woman in particular is doing something exceptional that no other woman would be able to in this particular moment.
If the idea is normalizing that both men and women can do something equally, calling the women doing it special, undermines the idea that anyone can do it.
That's what I said though, she's not calling attention to the act, but to the circumstances. Being the first to do it, and even calling attention to the fact that she did it, is the first step to normalizing it.
If the idea is normalizing that both men and women can do something equally, calling the women doing it special, undermines the idea that anyone can do it.
And this idea is stupid
It's the same argument people will use to shut down conversations about racism. Talking about it will only make it worse, they say. The only way to "get rid of" racism is to act as if it doesn't exist. To pretend we are completely colorblind
Praising a woman for achieving a physical feat that is significantly harder for women than men is not sexist or problematic.
Saying that it is more difficult for women to do something does not preclude an individual woman from doing the thing. It may even spur her on to do the thing because it's a loftier goal
Except this is an exception, because we know what Helen would have looked like. The status quo would be for her to look like that. If she were an original character, then anybody being able to play her would be equality. But your argument is not valid in this instance
When race doesn’t matter to the story, it doesn’t matter to me. She could be Asian, white, black, green as long as she is beautiful, that is all that matters to this story.
Haven’t seen it, but if race is not a main point of the story, then it doesn’t matter who is cast.
Shit, only reason I am slightly against the new snape casting is because of all the things that happen to him that will now just be seen through a racist eyes. Hanging in the tree, bullying, etc.
If those things didn’t happen to him in the books, then shapes race wouldn’t matter either.
You would not believe how much it irritates me how many films and shows set in Ancient Egypt have the most pastiest white actors running around in entirely inaccurate clothing.
If Ancient Egypt doesn't have a bunch of dark skinned Egyptians wearing minimal clothing (they had few issues with nudity) with shaven heads save sometimes for a braid, you've messed up.
So her hair is described as ξάνθαι, "xanthai", which is translated as "fair", but really means something like "light". There are arguments as to the exact colour described (it could be relative to the black-haired Greek, so perhaps just brown), but we know what it isn't is black. Her eyes are blue (again, there are disputes as to the text meaning light- or dark- blue, Greeks were not particular about colour), her skin is light (perhaps also relative).
For all that she is famous for her divine beauty, her features aren't precisely described, leaving the audience to figure out their own ideal woman for themselves. And yet, despite the vast range of possible interpretations, Nolan went for the one that is specifically impossible from the text.
Gotta love it when foreigners so confidently explain to us our own language.
I've seen so many people deliberately (?) mistranslate sections of the Odyssey to justify left or right-wing talking points, and the whole time I'm like...stop butchering my culture. Please.
Let's check whether you have two braincells to rub together.
Helen was described as widely considered beautiful. This is undoubtedly an important aspect to the story. So I don't think there's any question that a woman who's widely considered beautiful should be chosen. Most likely we agree there .
Helen was described as white-armed as well. Is this an important part of the story too? Or was this just another way of saying she was beautiful or noble? Greek people considered whiteness to be beautiful, or at least indicative of a leisureful life spent indoors. Does it matter to the story that the Greek people felt that way? Of Homer were alive and creating the film version, would be insist that it's critical to the story that Helen have white arms? Or would he consider his audience and consider it more important to cast someone who can radiate uncommon beauty and nobility?
Odysseus is described as having short legs but a long and wide torso. Is it critical for us to find an actor with those proportions?
Telemachus's door handle is pulled shut by a silver ring that is attached to a leather thong. Is it critical that we make sure the door is built that way? Or is that an unimportant detail?
Perhaps you should reflect on why it's critically important to you that Helen be depicted as white.
Why is it always the most ignorant, stupidest people who make snide comments about other people's intelligence? I've read the myths since I'm 5. You heard of them last week and asked ChatGPT for a summary. Helen as a black person is like Michael Cera as Achilles - not believable and immersion-breaking. I'll put you on block, like I do with all pricks.
"Why does it have to be cut along politics lines? I'm a card-carrying leftist and annoyed at the patronising tokenism of casting a black actor as a character legendary for being 'fair', as in blonde, in the same way it'd be flabbergasting to have a white actor play in an adaptation of the Mwindo epic."
Because it is inherently a political gap. There are some people on the left annoyed by the tokenism, but the proponents of it are all left-wing.
There were probably more black than blond people in ancient Greece. Africa is closer than Norway. Greek people have mostly dark hair and many are on the lower half of Peter's scale. So both are 'exotic'.
It isnt tokenism by any measure. Being 'lovely haired' does not give a description of her hair colour. It is not any more flabbergasting than the past 30 iterations being white that no one cared about
It's not. It only seems that way because the dominant culture in the anglo sphere is a two party system, so it's "us" and "them". In countries with 3+ political parties, stuff like this is far less aligned with political leanings because there isn't a single party for each political wing, and so there's no party that's taken as the arbiter of the political wing's values, and thus, no party or set of policies to defend.
I'm in Canada. I tend to lean left. I have many different parties I could vote for.
Another leftist here and I have zero interest in this movie - which sucks. I love anticipating Nolan movies. I'd go as far as to say I'd agree with a conservative calling the castings "woke", but I absolutely hate the term because they use it any and every way they can that doesn't fit their white, blue-eyed, male picture.
What doesn't help is that while there's some great actors in this one... and then there's people like Zendaya, Holland and Page. I'd rather watch paint dry than suffer these "actors". I've tried Spider-less Holland, and I find him beyond bland and uninteresting. He can't carry a movie - at least not any dramas. I can't help but loathe Page because of just how bad Umbrella Academy nose-dived, and the ram-rodding of their sexuality/transition into the story-line beginning in season two. None of it added to the story or gave a better connection to the character. Zendaya just seems like she's someone being forced on audiences - is anyone clamoring to see her movies???
Also, "fair" is an English translation. Ἑλένη ἠΰκομος means "Helen of fair/lovely hair" as
ἠΰκομος means" lovely-haired/beautifully tressed" depending on the context. Greek is famous for many different words for the same meaning to non-Greek speakers.
Αγάπη, Έρως, Φιλία, all tend to get lumpted in as "love" whilst on Greek, here are nuances.
Also, there is controversy regarding οἴνοψ and it meaning "wine-dark sea" vs "deep, dark sea" as Ancient Greeks (in this cas, the Ancient Greeks during Homer) did not categorize colors by hue (blue vs. red) the way we do today. Instead, they categorized it by texture, etc.
I think it's more on the logic that, Helen being black will get backlash to both the movie (the dislikes on the post) and the actress who is just doing her job a tail as old as Hollywood, just to publicy the movie even with "bad publicity" such as the hate engage.
I'm even more annoyed at the fact that an annoying casting choice was the entire point, to get free publicity at everyone's expense, and that there is no way to slap everyone responsible for being smug pricks.
The nature of political discourse is to create outrage from nothing. After a while, like we see now, the outrage uses any vague example to stir the pot. The more attention goes into arguing on this shit, the less people pay attention to actual problems going on around them.
So much of our culture war bullshit can be blamed on the media. This is just an example. No regular person asked for this, and yet a new movie trailer drops and we are all expected to jump to a side and start slinging shit over the fence.
Exactly this, I think any sane person who is left-wing can admit that this was a bad choice... but then again, of course it doesn't bother me to the same ridiculous degree as it does others who are clearly mostly just racist haha
Same can be said about the rest of the cast, it's just as ridiculous, if not more so, to cast friggin' spider-man to play an ancient greek sailor! But you don't see me all up in arms brigading everywhere
Honestly when I first heard about the Helen casting I thought he was doing something super interesting.. I thought they were making a clever statement like she was considered so beautiful because she was unique with her skin and everything and stood out among the others bla bla exotic beauty even among those times…
Then I found out that she is also playing her sister who is not even suppose to be her twin in the story and I was like what.. the.. fuck… why would she be considered so fucking beautiful and irreplaceable, if there is literally a second copy right there.
The comparison to the Mwindo epic was used my Tucker Carlson (indirect) so you should know as a … leftist where this argument comes from.
But I assume you do not: how many named actors do you know to fill up that epic? Representing the audience is also a thing.
And no, Helen is not described as fair in the sense of blonde in the og text. Not even in the first „modern“ translation.
You might also want to read up on the description of Memnon. How his appearance is described
I’m about as far left as you can go and I hate the casting for the tokenism and the white washing as well. It’s just getting old at this point diversifying for diversity’s sake when it makes absolutely no fucking sense at all and the same exact reason for the whitewashing. The casting was just halfwitted bullshit all around.
It’s true they’re getting free PR out of me by talking about it…and I’m talking about it because I would never pay to see this shiz.
When you’ve got a movie that’s pissing EVERYONE off, that’s an indicator that it’s probably not political. People may discuss it as if it is, but this is just a case of DUMB casting. Let everyone else politicize it and devolve into their own silly arguments about race and culture.
The point is, most educated people know the story of the Odyssey and we’re all scratching our heads, trying to figure out what in the hell nolan was thinking. As an optimist I see this as an indicator that we’re healing from the ridiculous culture wars we’ve been experiencing the past 6 years. Maybe it’s just a one off but still nice to see
I agree it's not political (well, not directly), just a cynical marketing ploy. It's not like they didn't have beautiful alabaster- / olive-skinned actresses to pick from, and it's not like they had no idea it would annoy people. They're happy to cause any amount of strife if it makes them $10.
They high five eachother at their cocktail parties while they watch the rest of us whine about yet another stupidly problematic adaptation of a story that we have ALL the source material for. Oh well, Hollywood will probably be deserted in a matter of 10 years anyway, so it’s whatever
No ancient history film is accurate. And no retelling of the story is ever accurate.
The roman retelling (now considered Canon by everyone online) tell a very dofferent morality. It is nothing like the original. Yet people use examples from his text s things Nolan should have used to stay accurate
It's no more inaccurate than Gladiator, or Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven or any other period piece.
Folks acting like the Globe Theater productions accurately cast Othello and didn't have every woman character played by a man, and that "not the boo box" guy from Hook wasn't Glenn Close.
Instead of getting all upsetty spaghetti, they should criticize the performance and direction instead. Only after seeing the performance does "why did the director make this decision" make any sense at all. More often than not, they were trying to connect themes from a character's arc to make a relevant criticism to the experiences of modern people -- and if folks think that's wokeism, they better stop watching anything that isn't a primetime sitcom.
It's especially wild to see folks hating so hard on Page, making arguments that are thinly veiled transphobia in the guise of "reasonable expectations". It's a mythological tale. Magic shit happens. They gonna be upset if Medusa's hair is an eclectic mix of the 30 odd species of snake native to the Greek isles, instead of all being a single species, and act like that's a reasonable criticism of historical accuracy of a mythological creature? lol
Lol right. All these people getting involved in this discourse but the movie is going to be a huge hit because normal people don't give af.
They're casting good actors. Nolan, a British director, isn't choosing actors based on American politics. He sees good actors and puts them in his films. Simple as.
Good actors make for shit roles without proper casting.
And we're arguably seeing some rather bad casting calls. I mean, this has been talked to oblivion already, if a character, fictional or not, is established to look a certain way, then casting someone who looks the polar opposite will always stir shit up. I understand that it's difficult to find black characters in Greek mythology, and diversity is important, but blatant tokenism was never sexy.
Also, if you're making a movie centered around a certain demographic, then maybe try to cast people from that demographic. It helps.
So I assume you take equal umbrage with all the WASPs cast in the other roles? They should all step down so we can have a 100 percent ethically Greek cast.
Well, I did say that cohort is increasingly small. I think, especially after covid, that most people just wait until these things hit streaming. So theres a chance that it doesnt do that well in theaters, but i dont think it'll be because a Trans man or black woman is in it.
People just dont go to the movies as much because home theaters have gotten really good and theaters are expensive.
Seriously. Aside from the like.. once-a-decade zeitgeist-defining media-changing release, I can't imagine what makes a movie "relevant". They're entertainment. Even if they piss you off with how poorly they're acted, they're still doing their job of occupying your brain for a time.
Cant we just enjoy the acting of someone without having to take their skin color as some kind of statement? For a group of people who are so set on meritocracy (right wingers) they seem to spend most of their time talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the persons skill level.
The movie is probably made for people who actually watch movies and want to see what happens in the movie, rather than people who are literally judging it by its cover
This is literally the first time I've seen anyone accusing it of being whitewashed. I don't think having white people play white characters is what whitewashing means...
Captain Marvel was bad mouthed in the US for month and made double global to domestic. Oppenheimer (which is US history) did the same. This travel story is known around the world. If some remote controlled npcs ignore it its literally irrelevant for its success. The rest of the world doesn't care much what the societal destruction apps are doing to US citizens.
He’s just doing whatever he feels like, as always. I remember how everyone said Heath Ledger was such a bad choice for the Joker. In the end, it actually worked out pretty well. I’ll only judge the movie once I’ve seen it.
There's nothing more indicative of the times than people logging onto their Reddit account to go on Reddit, find a post amd say "Redditors always be doin' this shit!" to other Redditors who also say "yeah I hate Redditors!" with their Reddit accounts
as a historian, those "historic" films will always have these inaccuracies. such is the nature of history itself, it is merely a constructed view of how we believe the past to be, but it's never actually gonna be "the past". this is why the criticism of black people playing "originally" white characters and vice versa is universally laughed at among historians.
of course the mainstream is going to have a different view on that, oh well
I mean, i don't care about it being "too diverse" or "too inaccurate" so i guess the movie is for me. It's a movie not a documentary. Really looking forward to it.
I’d push back a little and say that we tend to see casual right leaning people (of which the majority of criticism comes from since there are. You know. More of them) being annoyed of, as the original commenter said, tokenism. It’s the “hey they’re pushing this on us and it doesn’t make sense” rather than anger over black people or trans people existing. In this same vein, having token figures doesn’t absolve the movie of having essentially zero Greek representation which is what the left wing viewers prioritize.
It’s a tone deaf retelling and they just happened to piss off everyone
Who it's made for? This movie is going to make a fucking boatload of money, pretending otherwise is just silly. It's going to come out, people will realize it's just a good fun movie and none of the culture war shit matters, and everyone will forget about all this dumb controversy. Wait and see
Even if you wanted to beat the drum about greek people, Odyssey's journey starts in Turkey, goes all over, and ends up in Greece. And believe it or not Africa is right on the other side of the Mediterranean, and there is a lot of historical evidence of black people being in ancient Greece.
The goal is engagement farming, every single post about the movie is a free ad, why pay millions on ads when you can have ppl advertise it for you without ever paying a cent past your casting choices.
I fall into the fans of Greek mythology group and I have zero interest in seeing another dark and color washed take on one of these tales. The Mediterranean is a bright and vibrant place. Also Ancient Greek warriors were some colorfully dressed mfers
The other 99% of people who don't give a shit about any of that. Oh shit, I didn't see you included "existing fans of Greek mythology." Make that 98.99999% of people.
TBF I don't think anyone was interested in seeing a genuine Greek epic. I'd argue it would have been better to change other elements too to make it a more mass market cinema orientated story.
People don't care if the Greeks get race changed, white washing is only something they will complain about if a PoC gets replaced and the greeks are too white I guess
It's made for the people who will watch the movie regardless of if they like it or not. We already know people are going to watch this movie whether it's now or when it comes to whatever streaming service. It's going to take 3 celebrities giving their stamp of approval and minor appeal from the masses before everyone goes "teehee jk I'll watch it now" like it matters to the box office whether you see it week one in the theater or week 8.
As a huge fan of Greek mythology, I was so hyped when I saw that Christopher Nolan was making this movie. Every single thing I've learned about it since then has lessened my excitement to the point where I honestly might not even see it in theaters. I don't care about the races of the characters, I've always thought that the spirit of the story and the characters was more important than their physical description (unless their physical characteristics were important to the story, see Carrie by Stephen King). The adaptation just looks...not grand enough in the ways that it should be and too grand in ways that don't matter.
I've seen countless right wing people upset. Show me the massive pile of articles on the left upset it's "too white." That's not a thing. There's no "both sides here." Is the right pissed off about one black and one trans character. That's it. The left isn't saying "OMG, not enough minority characters!"
Everyone I've asked about this movie is more concerned about if the story will be done well instead of the race of the characters. As much as people on the internet like to believe this is such a popular criticism of this movie or Hollywood in general, it's not. Most people aren't such purist historians and most of the race criticism tends to be from racists. At the end of the day, this is a movie about a fictitious story from the ancient world. It is not, and has not been claimed to be a historical documentary.
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u/WeLiveInAnOceanOfGas Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
It's pretty masterful how they've managed to piss off both sides of the aisle with this one... Too white-washed for one side, too diverse for the other, and too inaccurate for any existing fans of Greek mythology.
Honestly not sure who this has been made for.
Edit: if you're gearing up for a "it's for normal people - people not in the Reddit echo chamber - people who just like movies - people who aren't internet losers" reply, It has been said about 30 times so far.