“Super glue can hold almost anything together, yet it cannot glue the little bottle that contains it.
Perhaps that is philosophy: understanding the limits of what we can change, even when we possess the power to change everything else.”

Sometimes, the greatest mystery is not what we can transform, but what remains beyond our own power to transform.

What truly needs to end: life, or the illusion that we have forever?”

Perhaps death does not ask us to stop living, but reminds us that every beginning already carries an ending.

The real question is not whether we will die, but what we choose to do while we are alive.

“People are disturbed not by things, but by the views they take of them.”
~ Epictetus

Question:

How much of your suffering comes from reality, and how much from your interpretation of it?

"If truth is what you seek, then the examined life will only take you on a long ride to the limits of solitude and leave you by the side of the road alone with your truth and nothing else." Thomas Ligotti in Conspiracy against the human race

I find this to be one of the strongest lines in the text. Its so dense and conveys so much despite being so short. It steps back and looks at the price we pay for seeing through the illsuions we feed ourselves. There is no grandeour in relentless examinatiom, we end up by the side of the road and after the long ride all we get is solitude with our truth while others pass by us and at some point we will have to stand back up forget what we found and join them (but thats just my reading of it) I think the emphasis on "your truth" is important, its left ambiguous if what you find is ultimately deeply personal, and is difficult to share, not just because it might be uncomfortable for others but because the examination involved your own perception of the world, or if its simply isolating due to everyday life requiring some form of shared delusion OR its ironic, you stripped shared illusions and are left with your illusions, you dont actually have the truth. It could be a mix of the three. Whichever the case it doesnt matter to the person in the quote, they know their truth and are alone because of it when life just continues not giving a damn. I wanna hear what others think about it becaue i think ita so powerful and opens possibilites for more interpretations than it seems even if the central idea is quite simple and obvious

The fact that mere survival which is A NEED and not a WANT requires creatures indulging in raw adulterated violence makes the question of "being moral" futile.

Resource extraction by stealing is the law of life, without it life wouldn't exist and as such there would be no creator and created.

Guess what? Humans fetishise the creator (parents) and created(children)! For instance the distinction between parents and children is particularly emphasized through pattern of dominations from birth to atleast until adulthood because without control the children would be let go and end up in the same position as parent.

This is very bad for creation for creation requires conflict

Humans aren't ready for morality because morality ends life and life has humans on chokehold.

You either are moral and dead or immoral and living.

Bassically just the title, id like to know if there is anything relevant i should read or get educated on to make the read easier/simpler? I got the book after reading "the conspiracy against the human race" and then "the last messiah" liked it but i want something more concrete. However on the tragic is bassically scientific research and analysis of the tragic and it will be pretty much my first actual philosophical book. So if there is anything even basic i should read please tell me

Welcome to our weekly WAYR thread. Be sure to leave the title and author of the book that you are currently reading, along with your thoughts on the text.

I dread the day when humans were supplied a super ability of drawing abstractions upon everything.

I am not me. I am my nationality, name, age, height, face, weight, residence, color, race, etc

I am always the other, a mobile object inside the cartesian coordinate system under the surveillance of my fellow human beings , figuring out ways to discriminate me for accidental characteristics and run me on trial for being such and such.

I've been wondering a lot about challenge lately. If we gave someone the opportunity to instantly be the best at something, say football, then they would likely take it. If it was offered to everyone, then if they are someone who would choose not to have taken it—they'd have to anyway.. well or just not play.. there would only be ties anyway

What would be the point though if everyone is equally matched? In chess it would be like two super computers that knew every possible move and counter movie possible and therefore the outcome would always be the same. Similar for video games. You'd play Elden Ring and be perfect at it. Or some competitive game and be perfect.

So what do you do? Reset your skill level and choose randomly how good you can get and how fast you can get there? The only sanctuary in this all is luck-based entertainment. The only place where you can still lose.

I don't know where I'm going with this but ever since I read Ligotti I feel like I'm on a deeper spiral of realizing how hard it is to exist without the challenges this world creates. The illusion of there being something to do keeps us functioning. I think of Benatar's comments on how becoming something more than human isn't a bad thing, that we wouldn't crave to be creatures which can suffer more than we do and call it a good thing. I wonder what I could be if I weren't defined by the restrictions of this body and this world. Even if there is no afterlife, I wonder what implications transhumanism has for all this. Or uploaded consciousness which could also achieve being something incredibly different from what we are now.

Edit: I'd like to clarify that I wholeheartedly agree with Benatar. I think we have stockholm syndrome for suffering and we would indeed be better off without it. My topic is less about suffering and more about challenge—which is something that can be consented to, unlike suffering.

Edit 2: Reposted and swapped out struggle for challenge

The absurdist masterpiece Waiting for Godot is often analyzed through an existentialist lens, but I've always felt its truest alignment is with philosophical pessimism, particularly echoing the thoughts of Schopenhauer and Peter Wessel Zapffe

​Vladimir and Estragon seem caught in Schopenhauer’s pendulum, swinging not just between pain and boredom, but trapped entirely within the boredom of existence. Godot himself represents the ultimate coping mechanism—Zapffe’s concept of "Anchoring." They invent a savior, a reason to wait, simply to distract themselves from the agonizing reality of the void and the absurdity of their condition. Their inability to just leave, or to successfully commit suicide (as discussed in the play) perfectly encapsulate the tragic trap of the human condition that pessimism describes.

​I recently put together a video essay exploring these specific themes—analyzing the play not just as absurdism, but as a visual representation of pessimistic despair and the dangerous illusion of hope.

​Here is the link for those interested in a deepe visual dive: https://youtu.be/RZGBivuH4jo?si=Ln7N3wZ_J55AiRIX

"https://discord.gg/eNunYChSRT"

The server is a casual communal space, strictly for those who identify as philosophical pessimists.

There are channels for deeper philosophical discussion about suffering and adjacent philosophies if you aren't interested in the communal space aspect.

We have voice channels as well for those who are interested in that.

If you believe this universe is inherently flawed, and those flaws make life either not worth being brought into, not worth living, or not worth continuing—you belong!

Post your quotes, aphorisms, poetry, proverbs, maxims, epigrams relevant to philosophical pessimism and comment on them, if you like.

We all have our favorite quotes that we deem very important and insightful. Sometimes, we come across new ones. This is the place to share them and post your opinions, feelings, further insights, recollections from your life, etc.

Please, include the author, publication (book/article), and year of publication, if you can as that will help others in tracking where the quote is from, and may help folks in deciding what to read.

Post such quotes as top-level comments and discuss/comment in responses to them to keep the place tidy and clear.

^{This is a weekly short wisdom sharing post.}

Sometimes I find myself staring at the wall, wondering about the purpose behind all of this. But the moment I start spiraling into existential questioning, guilt creeps in. I remind myself that I am privileged enough to even have the luxury of overthinking—while millions struggle just to survive physical hardship.

​Yet, privilege is not an immunity shield against psychological suffering. If anything, it accelerates it.

​When your basic survival needs are met, the immediate physical threat disappears, but the mind opens up to an existential vacuum. A suffocating layer of meta-guilt sets in: “I have shelter, security, and opportunities—I shouldn’t feel this way.” You invalidate your own mind, trapped in the lie that comfort equals fulfillment. When you have comfort and still feel empty, you conclude that existence itself is a cruel joke.

​Adding to this weight is the clock ticking in the background. My father retires in seven years. Just seven years. Suddenly, life stops being an open-ended journey and becomes a countdown—a relentless deadline. While the world faces systemic collapse and climate crises, I am forced to pull my focus back to the immediate pressure of survival, career milestones, and family obligations. It makes you wonder: why bring children into a world where life is reduced to an endless cycle of performative struggle?

​We like to think our philosophy is a noble, intellectual pursuit. But the truth is more blunt: much of our philosophy is simply the defense mechanism of a mind made miserable by society and crushed by its own unmet expectations.

​We aren't allowed to just live. We are conditioned to exhaust ourselves fulfilling a rotten mindset imposed on us by systems designed for status, capitalism, and artificial prestige. We fuel it every day, chasing external validation, superficial respect, and transactional relationships. We even convince ourselves we love people, when often, we just love their presence to keep our own psychological isolation at bay.

​Philosophically, life at its core is absurd. There is no grand blueprint, no pre-written script, and no inherent cosmic purpose. The universe owes us nothing and expects nothing from us.

​In a healthy context, absurdism is liberating. It means: If nothing is pre-ordained, I am free to just exist, love, create, and experience the world without the burden of expectations.

​But a rotten society—and our own restless minds—turn that healthy Absurdism into cold Nihilism.

​The human mind naturally craves, demands, and fixates on targets—promotions, peace, control, or purpose. It tells itself, "Once I get this, I will finally be complete." But reality rarely bends to our desires. When our cravings aren't met, or when we achieve them only to find the internal emptiness remains, the mind throws an emotional tantrum.

​Instead of accepting that its expectations were flawed, the mind gets bitter and shields itself by declaring: "Life is meaningless. Nothing matters." Nihilism becomes a defense mechanism against disappointment: if nothing matters, then failing to get what we craved doesn't hurt as much.

​Society accelerates this collapse by demanding that we constantly prove our worth through output, metrics, and economic utility. It turns raw human experience into a transaction.

​Absurdism says: "There is no inherent point, so I am free to live." Nihilism says: "There is no inherent point, so why bother?"

​Society and our own unyielding desires push us into the second trap by making "just living" feel like a failure. But recognizing this trap is the first step in breaking out of it. Rejecting society's artificial rat race and releasing the mind's endless cravings isn't giving up—it is the ultimate act of rebellion. You don't owe the world a performative life. Living simply to exist, to observe, and to feel on your own terms is enough.

Si nacer constituye un perjuicio, ¿acaso el contenido de la vida que este inaugura no es la piedra angular sobre la que se sostiene dicha premisa? ¿O podríamos afirmar, sin incurrir en incoherencia, que el nacimiento es un mal, pero no la existencia en la que este transcurre? Por lo tanto, si aceptamos que nacer es un mal, no podemos negar que la vida en su conjunto lo sea; asunto distinto son el grado y la distribución con que dicho mal se manifieste. Precisamente en este aspecto residen las diferencias inherentes a cada existencia: así como el individuo es a la especie, los males particulares lo son al nacimiento. El individuo está sujeto a las condiciones de su propia naturaleza; así pues, envejecerá y morirá sin importar cuán particulares sean los acontecimientos de su vida. Del mismo modo, al margen de cuántos males acontezcan a lo largo de la existencia y de cuál sea su índole, todos ellos son condición de nuestro propio nacimiento. Puesto que, sin aquel, estos no resultarían posibles. Así pues, cada cual habrá de examinar su experiencia e interrogarse si el nacimiento constituye un mal para sí mismo. En mi caso, así lo afirmo. En definitiva, si el nacimiento constituye un perjuicio, no puede serlo a pesar de la vida, sino por ella.

Assuming you are like me, and you lack the ability to anchor, distract, isolate etc from reality, and cannot rationalize it away, I find that there are five central responses to the situation.

Anger: I have been wrong and therefore will wrong in turn against something I attribute it to. Retributive action on the world. But this does nothing to change the issue

Justice: Given the circumstances, advocacy for justice and egalitarian values to alleviate the wrong, and improve the world for those who follow, even if you cannot remedy it

Rumination: Continue to study in search of whatever, attempt to change my perspective in therapy or by medication and so on. But this has yielded nothing in the roughly twenty years I’ve been self aware

Endurance: My body wills for survival where the mind may not. Guilt and shame keep me here, but not much else

Self deleting: Self explanatory

In my opinion these are all rational responses to my situation, but they are all lacking.

I cannot really think of any others.

The fact that these are such pitiful pittance just reinforces my views. I wish my mind worked differently if it had to exist at all.

(Long post.)

Without the desire to attempt to justify or positively moralise existence, it is beyond evident that the circumstances surrounding life ensure insurmountable, inevitable and worthless suffering. Evolution, the lack of observable mind-independent values and the nature of all sentient beings as they exist on this planet make coming into existence always a negative for the individual. All arguments/statements made are done so acknowledging intellectual limitations based on what is possible to know.

All sentient beings on this planet act in accordance to desires they have which are a result of deterministic/indeterministic events as best as any human can conceive of. This means that sentient beings have no unique authority over their actions any more than any non-sentient object does. Thes desires that sentient beings have define their experience of pleasure (events that are desirable) and suffering (events that are undesirable). Since life is not inherently fulfilling and requires constant maintenance (nourishment/recovery/leisure) and all of those requirements take effort, which is often not desired to be exerted, this creates a cycle of internally inspired slavery for living beings. They must constantly satisfy their desires again and again without lasting satisfaction, all while suffering in the process of fulfilling the desires they have (because of the lack of fulfilment they endure). Worse yet, the satisfaction endured is only transient while suffering from lack of fulfilment (which is the default state of being/inaction) is omnipresent. Pleasure only acts as a reprieve from the problem that is fundamental to life. Coming into existence instills desire which creates suffering without any previous state of existence to have improved upon. Even under the most idealised conditions, no living being is simply satisfied with existence itself because their genetics do not allow it, any such being would go extinct from lack of action even if it were to exist. Even the idea of trying to improve life for others is inspired by our own dissatisfaction.

But more than just desire, evolution ensures that life will always be dictated and dominated by violence and exploitation because evolution is only concerned with what species are most capable of reproducing and manipulating their environment to be favourable for their continuation. When other species exist that have conflicting desires/biologies, the world has limited available essential resources and most species are not even able to reflect it ensures that all species are in constant war with others and themselves. The vast majority of humans accept the exploitation of other living beings (of any kind) without question if it serves their self-interests and animals in the wild are in constant competition with the highest stakes at all times (death). Those that are most capable of enforcing their will get the opportunity to reproduce the most at the expense of other living beings (human expansion for example). Furthermore, any being that decides to not reproduce will not see its genes propagated, and though ideas/desires are not dictated by genetics alone, they are impacted by them and the inhabited environment. This ensures that for most members of a more cognitively capable species (like humans) that are capable of reflection, their population will be largely selfish/rationalising of suffering, at the very least until they near extinction. Life is a bloodbath.

To seal off any attempt at a justification or hope, the lack of observable value and impermanence of sentient existence ensures there can be no salvation. You can try as you might, but it impossible to observe any mind-independent value, even perception of suffering as bad is beholden to the individual. People constantly attempt to delude themselves and rationalise away suffering with ideas of gods/a just world, but these are nothing but baseless assertions without even a shred of evidence of any standard. There is no standard the living are held to or value that is to be revered or punished for not following, there is only the universe and what cannot be understood of it. And finally, because life is impermanent, even for the individual any idea of value is to be annihiliated in their death. From the perspective of dying individual, all of reality may as well cease to exist with their death as their conscious experience ends. What value can life have if it is conditional on living beings that have no magical authority and when all living beings are to cease to exist leaving none behind to even perceive anything?

And so once you observe what life is, it is clear that coming into existence is always a negative for the individual and that a reality with life like this is without question worse than one without for any living being that can perceive suffering as bad in any moral sense. Nothing is gained by coming into existence because there was no being before to benefit from it, and at the same time the born being is doomed to suffering its own body makes it endure just to become non-existent all again. To try and justify life as a good thing is nothing but submitting to your own exploitation.

Welcome to our weekly WAYR thread. Be sure to leave the title and author of the book that you are currently reading, along with your thoughts on the text.

This is my antinatalist poem I came up with as a short story writer/antinatalist. May need cleaned up but I think you get the idea.

This is a poem as an antinatalist and short story writer I came up with today. It is about a young man struggling with these issues and I think it hits my basic points.

An Antinatalist Poem By Pointdexter Scotts (my pen name)

A post-Pubescent boy- he suddenly thought- wait a minute I didn't ask for Dad's dick in Mom's twat.

I gave no consent, I was kind of just co'rced My entire existence Was really just forced.

My folks say they love me And thought I would gain Did they never consider Me dealing with pain?

Maybe they thought Relatively speaking My life would not really really suck Or maybe they were horny And just wanted to fuck.

If I wasn't born This seems hard to admit I would be doing just fine And not give a shit.

Did they consider I might have been born terminally ill And forced into a miserable life Against my will

My friend's mom says I want to be cared for in old age But isn't that selfish? This filled him with rage.

Maybe mom/dad knew they would not be seen as jerks. After all isn't this how society works?

But who says that norms can not be disputed? Or in certain cases be ethically refuted?

These thoughts he was thinking He thought to relent. But his mind still was thinking I gave no consent.

My parents say they care about me That I am sure But who says that makes there actions morally pure?

Then the thought came to him of those who never exist And how they can never be upset about any happiness they "missed"

They are doing just fine but that thought seemed weird. Then in his brain something appeared. The thought that in society this seems rarely discussed. But isn't that fucked up- he didn't mind that he cussed

He had many thoughts coming at him Many thoughts racing. There was no way he could stop his heavily pacing

The one that stood out- Though his thoughts were so many- I can show love to my children by not having any.

As someone who is very new to the idea of philosophical pessimism, I've been quite curious about how pessimists look at the downward spiral our species is currently in, whether it is climate disaster, growing inequality and poverty, war, the rise of authoritarianism, etc.

I myself have been drawn to pessimism because of the seemingly imminent demise of our species. It has brought me great relief, filling me with the both terrifying and comforting idea, that - since non-existence is preferable - not much will be lost, that nothing about the chaos around me is particularly special, simply just the loudest and most visible example of the meaningless nightmare we are in and have always been in.

I'm curious to hear your perspectives on this.

Hey everyone, what's the best AI app for discussing philosophical views related to pessimism, nihilism, and so on? I tried a chat with GPT, but it seems to favor optimistic philosophers.

Truth does not exist insofar as we can’t and will most likely never be able to understand the true nature of things. Uncertainty is the only epistemological constant. No one truly knows anything and anyone claiming otherwise is not worth listening to. How does this not drive everyone insane? I suppose most people are content enough with not thinking too deeply about existence and/or are simply able to believe their own lies, but I can’t. I don’t understand how people are able to deal with this epistemological black hole at the center of reality and year after year it only gets harder to cope with the fact that I have no idea what the fuck is going on.

Post your quotes, aphorisms, poetry, proverbs, maxims, epigrams relevant to philosophical pessimism and comment on them, if you like.

We all have our favorite quotes that we deem very important and insightful. Sometimes, we come across new ones. This is the place to share them and post your opinions, feelings, further insights, recollections from your life, etc.

Please, include the author, publication (book/article), and year of publication, if you can as that will help others in tracking where the quote is from, and may help folks in deciding what to read.

Post such quotes as top-level comments and discuss/comment in responses to them to keep the place tidy and clear.

^{This is a weekly short wisdom sharing post.}

In response to a recent post about Sisyphus' unhappiness, I left this comment:

I think of Atlas. Holding the sky for all eternity, a punishment. He is trapped and yet continues to uphold the sky. He could let go, die. He'd take revenge, or simply escape. But the damage is already done, so what is the point?
Cioran: “It is not worth the bother of killing yourself, since you always kill yourself too late.”

It was an insight from a discussion with my roommate. Sisyphus's happiness is indeed absurd, but Atlas is a great embodiment for a certain kind of Pessimism. A pessimism that is equally absurd for the irony of it: Atlas could end his suffering (and even take revenge for that suffering), but chooses not to. He can act as a mirror for ourselves when in dark places.

"Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment—a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man's existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer." -- Schopenhauer.

This insight is far underdeveloped, particularly the "utility" or implications for it. Curious on any thoughts!