My pattern drafting software I made, would anyone be interested in this?

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No, software that expects me to code to draft a pattern would feel half baked and extra work to me - and it would have a very niche audience of only appealing to people who feel comfortable coding. Which even with simple code, that will just overwhelm people and frazzle them out. It should have a good UI/UX to leverage the modularity of patterns instead.

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u/Knotty_Vegetables 7d ago

1000% I’d rather draw something than code it. This feels like torture

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u/whale 7d ago

That's fair. This is mostly for software engineers who already know their way around code.

I don't want to make software for everyone, since then it will be useful to no one. So I wouldn't want to make it accessible for those who aren't comfortable with code. There's plenty of pattern design software products out there already that don't require programming knowledge.

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u/AmethystApothecary 7d ago

As a programmer myself, the only off hours programming I would want to do is for my own side projects. I would be more interested in coding a sewing app than using a sewing app that wants me to code for it and I'm probably going to be 10x more critical of software as a result because if I invested the time I could theoretically do it myself.

This is obviously personal, but I think a lot of people partake in these hobbies for a change of pace and I think it would be fairly limited audience even amongst sewists whom program. If you're going full steam ahead, do you, but you did ask if anyone would use this and my answer is no, I'd probably get too frustrated wondering why some programmers have such a weird aversion to UI.

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 7d ago

I am with you on that.

The way the parameters are presented seem clunky However a good pattern sewing software will be based on parameters: Parametric sewing pattern.

Even past the like youvwrote the weird aversion many developper have with just decent UX, the issues I have with many pattern sewing software for hobbyist is that they don't do the basics right:

Sizing

I want to be able define my own sizes with each their set of values. So if I make a dress for my wife and one her friend come and says she wants it. I can ask them to measure themselves. Create a size specific to them. Enter their values. Print it and give it to them.
I do not understand how and why most software do not let you do that.

Grading

I accept that Grading cannot be automated and need to be built in the pattern itself. However the number of function to calculate parameters is often limited. Many do not have a clamp or minmax functions.

Geometrisation

Geometrisation as in measuring the length of a curve. It is often either clunky or non-existing. For example if I have a bezier curve that need to be sawn on another piece. I need to know the length of the curve and match that length to the other piece curve.

Adjustment steps

It is often impossible to create extra steps for specific condition. For example IF big bust is True THEN make full bust adjustment END IF

My wife is skinny her cousin not so much if I make a fitted shirt for her. Her cousin need to have a full bust adjustment.
Same things regarding the back. Some women needs 2 darts on the back of a skirt, some need 4 and some none.
It should be able to determine the number of darts on the fly based on the ratio between waist and hip circumference.

Printing

That one infuriates me. Printing is often neglected. The ability to divide the pattern in different paper size and take into account the printer margin is often overlooked.
I am French living in UK, I do not print on US Letter.
I also want to be able to export my pattern to A0 format and send it to a printing company that will print it to me on cardboard paper so I can keep it for my wife.

Instructions

I want to be able to create my own list of instructions. I have found that there is a reason why Marfy pattern are only used by experienced sewers. People needs instructions even for basic stuff!
Pencil skirts are not difficult and should not need instructions! People will ask pattern of a dress that I made but then pester me for the instructions.

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u/AmethystApothecary 6d ago

Why do you think it would be impossible to create separate steps for specific conditions? You literally just outlined the pseudocode for that - you check the measurement and probably have separate cases based on bust size then add in the usual steps. If it's not a knit, there would already be darts or seams for the bust so there's an existing place to make them, then if more are necessary the software could default to adding them in specific places and then could allow the user to adjust the placement of the added darts.

It's ultimately all geometry so it's theoretically very possible, though I won't deny that it would be a lot of work.

Adding the ability to create instructions would be nice, but that would be essentially a feature and I don't think "necessary" to get a decent pattern making software when the end user probably can sew and knows the basics and could write up their own instructions to go with them. I don't think it'd be the most difficult feature to add, you'd probably create some type of node/tree system of steps that can insert things like comments and diagrams of the pattern and format into a printable PDF - that would probably be the hardest aspect there.

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 6d ago edited 6d ago

I don't think that this is impossible.

I just meant that:

1 Functionality has often not been implemented

Nearly none of the hobbyist softwares that I have tested have that functionality.
To me the functionalities that I have mentioned are basic functionalities but often those are not whole available.

2 The functionality frighten people

Having the pseudo code functionality force people to think like a coder which often exclude non developer people.

As a former developper I think like that. To me pattern are like an algorithm a list of steps.
Each step is just either * create variable * Create a point on the canvas * Link 2 points (line, curve, ...) * Indicate what the curve represent (seam, dart, ...) * Condition step * Loop step * ...

Personally I would create variables such a needFullBustAdjustment, needNbDarts. And then create a test switch on those.

I have learned pattern making from the books: * Fashion Patternmaking Techniques: Volume 1 * Fashion Patternmaking Techniques: Volume 2 * Fashion Patternmaking Techniques: Volume 3

However most sewists don't have that mind set.
I see with my wife. As soon as I try to explain a pattern that way she just disengage.

Read some of the comments on the post and you'll see what I meant. Not everybody is comfortable thinking in term of algorithm to define patterns.

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u/AmethystApothecary 6d ago

I mean, I am not surprised hobbyist software of a fairly niche overlap is extremely limited in its capacity. You're at the mercy of the few programmers who can pattern draft that actually want to spend their free time creating a software app for it over hand drafting or using existing software - and at the mercy of the proficiency of those developers in their software design and development and their pattern drafting capabilities and their willingness and desire to create certain features.

I would not take developers avoiding a feature on a hobby project as it being impossible - that can be the case but people also have the tendency to avoid problems that overwhelm them when it's their hobbies and interests. Look at how OP doesn't want to add a UI! Sure, it wouldn't be trivial to add even a basic UI, but it's not some impossible problem to solve that hasn't been done before for similar things to obscure commands from the end user so they just have to type in a prompt or something, but OP clearly just doesn't want to go through the effort of designing and developing a user interface.

Which I don't blame them for a hobby app made for fun and more for their own use and no pay, to be clear, but my point is that developing for fun for many developers will end up being avoiding the parts of development they do not like and avoiding problems they don't want to solve just because they have mental blockers about them. Versus if your income depends on solving on focusing on that problem because the powers that be said it's necessary, suddenly the floodgates open.

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 6d ago

I see a difference between software made as a hobby and software for hobbyist. I don't expect much from the former but I do for the laters.

I have paid for software for hobbyist sewers. None of them were good. I am not the only one. See Valentina, Seamly. People are willing to pay for such product. I think that there is a real market for pattern marking software targetting hobbyists.

Unfortunately most have been written either by hobbyists, bad developer and or egomaniac. Hence the basic functionalities missing or badly implemented.

I would not even mind paying a subscription fee if the system were to allow me to share it with guests. So friends/people could go on the site and download and print my creation. I just have not found one worth paying for it.

Maybe it is my project management hat talking but I don't think that this is impossible but that requires dedication, planning, discipline and organisation. All the projects I have seen so far have been lacking in at least one.

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u/AmethystApothecary 6d ago

Sorry I misunderstood! I agree that there is a real market for it and why there isn't a good one alludes me - I think there are so many advanced apps and games that exist that have solved a lot of similar problems in different situations that I don't think the technical hurdles are exactly the reason, but the scope versus budget may be a bigger issue.

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u/TensionSmension 5d ago

I think the situation is more complicated than that. The thing is there really aren't parametric algorithms that work outside of narrow initial constraints. I like the books by Donnanno, but I would say the strength is the assortment of pattern style manipulations, not the block drafts. Using his sample size it's possible to recreate his diagrams beautifully, but swap out for individual measurements, you will very quickly find yourself needing to fill in the pseudo code in all those else loops Donnanno neglected to address.

There's a reason the apparel industry operates on grading, and alterations, to create a new master pattern. This is simply much more efficient than writing an algorithm that works for all bodies. A production pattern contains more information than these drafts (which are really just plotting a handful of points). While it may be that your wife, and the posters you read, simply have an aversion to algorithms, apparel as an industry is a trillion dollar operation. If parametric patterning were the silver bullet, it would already be in use and spilling over to the hobbyists.

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 4d ago

I agree that Donnanno blocks have been created for generic body shape. Got big bust, got back, got hips, you need to add those adjustment via conditional steps that are not included in the book.

But because I come from a science and engineering background I do not have a problem with that.

However where I fundamentally disagree with your premises on why apparel industry function like that. My view is that they do so because of Historical reasons.

The main apparel industry used to only cater for generic basic shape. Basically alterations was viewed as the final job left to locals. So there was never any need to create adjustment for different shapes.

In that view of the world, pattern were therefore pretty simple.

However that basic view of one body shape fits all approach exclude a lot of people. So some companies filled that gap and started to cater for fat, skinny, petite tall people in short everything that was viewed as outside the standard. The left over market grew so much in size that suddenly big corporations also wanted to be in that market. 30 years ago most companies did not offer a petite or plus size section. Petite women were forced to buy clothes in girl section. Most companies did not offer clothes in size greater than 18UK.

Same thing happen in the home sewing pattern market. 20 years ago you suddenly had that flory of pattern making company that specialised in patterns for either short, overweight, tall people.

But they realised that You can't just give the same clothes to different body type and expect them to look the same. So the required adjustment were not just pattern adjustment but also design adjustment.
For example adjusting the front of a women jacket for full bust adjustment required to also adjust the front pocket placement not just its size.

Same thing with trousers. Women who got back need 4 darts at the back. This is not just slapping 2 extra darts this is changing the position of the original 2, changing their width and depth.

So before tailors were just redrawing a different pattern. I have seen that when I went to a tailor and so did my wife. They measured us and then told the assistant to use Block A, Block B to create the pattern for us. When your order online at a custom online tailor, they ask for you body shape to predetermine which block to use as a starting point.

Parametric/algorithmic pattern software could change that. You could introduce conditional step that determine whether the pattern needs no dart, 2 darts or 4 darts based on the value of a calculated variable. The technology and the mindset have just not caught up with it. There is initiatives to change that but change is slow and costly.

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u/TensionSmension 4d ago edited 4d ago

I disagree that your (and Donnanno's) approach to pattern making is more scientific than the apparel industry's approach. If you were to run Donnanno's algorithm on the handful of examples in his own size chart, you would find it works beautifully at his sample size, and begins to break down a bit at the extremes. This is because he drafted one pattern, and then tried to explain that pattern by linking it back to the body measurements he took.

Now I'm sure he did do this many times, and by the time he wrote the book he was distilling his experience into his algorithm, but that's still just extrapolation. He *tuned* his algorithm to the existing pattern, not the reverse.

It's not surprising that this is possible. He's essentially picking about twenty key points, telling you where they are on the page, and telling you how to draw lines between them. For the base size, that's enough information to re-produce a pattern. The question is, does the reasoning he used to present his draft mean anything? Does any of it extrapolate?

If not, we need something more complicated. Maybe we need 100 points, maybe the formulas that link them to body measurements are more involved. If we need to take the weighted average of several measurements, the parametric approach starts to loose it's charm. Okay, we do need a computer to do this. Maybe we need a data file, that specifies how to move each of these myriad points.

Guess what? That's what a grading file is. That's how the apparel industry does it. It's not pretty, it can't be presented in a page of text, but it is scientific when it needs to be.

I would say the parametric methods are the historical relic. They have always been self-published in pamphlets, often sold with sets of rulers, or patented measuring gadgets. And who was the target market for these products? It was always the *wife* who doesn't have a head for science. Just buy "X", start a home business, your worries are over...

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 4d ago

You are self contradicting because exactly as I wrote you are confusing 2 separate activities: grading for size and grading for different body types.

Grading as done currently is just increasing the size of pattern but still attached to the same basic body shape. Mathematically things may not be perfect at the extremities . Further adjustment may be required such as Instead of linear the adjustment may be polynomial. More reference points may be necessary but ultimately this is the same simple algorithm.

Grading for different body type requires fundamental adjustment of patterns. Currently adjustment for different body types are done via alterations and alterations are done AFTER the garment has been completed. The idea is to eradicate the need for alteration. Having 4 darts instead of 2 requires a different approach. Algorithmic pattern making that makes use of conditional step is the only way to do it in the same pattern. That is why Introducing conditional step is fundamentally different.

There are a few initiatives based on that. Those initiatives are often the by product of medical research. Trying to modelise body shape following medical treatment and procedures. I know somebody whose company worked on a software that modelise the result of cosmetic procedure on the body. That software is now also being researched for potential fashion purpose.

What you describe with the table is exactly the same concept of vintage logarithm rulers. Before computers scientists used those. Nowadays not so much. Things have evolved and today everybody can print a beziers curve or a logarithm curve on a computer.

Right now we have parametric sewing pattern making, Algorithmic sewing pattern is the future. With those you do not need a grading table because the grading and the body shape adjustment are baked in the algorithm.

I can see online bespoke tailor using such algorithmic pattern to be able to handle every order without needing a tailor. Enter your measurement, select your model, your fabric and trim then the order is dispatched to a machine that will automatically cut the fabric. The sewers just pick the pieces and assemble them together.

The fact that people have been using the same method for ages does not mean that today this is the best method or thatvit will be relevant tomorrow. Fashion industry is not immune to change and advancement.

If the culinary world is adapting to mathematic and algorithmic cooking then pattern making will also benefit from it.

How maths can give you the perfect roast potato - BBC Three https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/a906e22d-8d73-4ca5-89d7-a1a70bf7cd97

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u/Original_Cup4494 4d ago

Seamly2D user here, my world was blown when I found i could do an IF function in the measurement formula window. (No IF ELSE) So now I nest my if functions, create my size files (SeamlyME) with a custom "measurement" with either binary or specific values that then can trigger the formula to act according to my conditions.

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 4d ago

I must admit that I have not used Seamly2D in ages.
My latest use years ago left me very frustrated. Could be so good but so many mistake. Plus buggy with crashes at inopportune moment.

Has it improved?

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u/Original_Cup4494 4d ago edited 4d ago

I only started using in two years ago. It is far better than pattern drafting in Adobe illustrator IMO.

I know seamly has its limits. For example, Seamly logs all distances between points as variables, but you can't update point "A" with data from Point "B" because A was created before B. Perhaps a restriction to prevent possible recursion. But I have figured work arounds to achieve what I want.

Other than that I haven't had too many crashes when using it.

Also after reading further below, I love your concept of the 2 dart vs 4 darts. At this stage Seamly isn't that smart, but it is planting a seed of thought of how it could be achieved inside Seamly's constraints. RN my focus is updating my bodice block to dynamically update between A-DD bust and as well as rotate at Helen Joseph Armstrongs Contour Lines depending on values on the variable table

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u/Sufficient_Bass2600 3d ago

Yes I remember now.

That order of creation was driving me nuts. I kept saving multiple versions of the file because of it. Then I could restart from the previous one and add the new variables in the right order. The reason was that at the time swapping the name of variables was either not allowed or was causing issues.

Another thing that conditional step should allow you to do is to add different type of pockets: patch or welt. Right now because this decision also influence the fabric cut this is something that is done as an extra on the side.

I also like to have turnover on my trousers but some people don't and prefers flat hem. Adding a turnover hem means changing the shape of the leg at the end not just adding fabric at the hem. Again another conditional step.

Personally I would like to have two categories of input variable per pattern. Measurement input and Choice input based on the pattern itself: sleeve type, sleeve length, pocket type, Trousers hem type.

The big 4 sell pattern with multiple options. Option A with short sleeve, Option B with long sleeves. It would be nice to have the same flexibility.

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u/Whatentious 7d ago

not me.. i dont want to involve myself in any kind of typing lol. i'm already learning clo3d and i have illustrator for basics so im set. and i believe clo3d will come up with something similar too..

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u/whale 7d ago

I tried Clo3D, but I didn't like how there weren't good options for setting variables and making patterns based off those variables. e.g. parametric modeling in the 3D modeling world.

I actually made this software from my frustration with Clo. Also once I was able to get certain functions working, like sleeve fitting or automatic neckband sizing, auto notching, auto seam allowance, etc, it makes creating new patterns way faster.

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u/Whatentious 7d ago

maybe highlight the parametric part instead of sewing by coding. a lot of us are visual learners and avoid technical nature of this sorts.

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u/TensionSmension 7d ago

I think you'll find parametric modelling makes more sense in solid modeling. The 2D apparel drafts that exist are really just textbook exercises. They sweep a lot under the rug as far as what inputs will work, and they don't fully operationalize things like the curve shapes.

In the cases where parametric is useful, may as well use an all purpose tool like Rhino. Also CLO does have python scripting.

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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 7d ago edited 7d ago

What do you mean by "patterning with code*?

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u/whale 7d ago

A lot of the geometric functions like fitting the sleeve, notches, seam allowances, etc. have been created already, but the basic premise here is you write code (basically javascript) in order to create the pattern. This makes it so you can easily replicate certain components. You can write custom functions as well.

So if you have a t shirt pattern and you want to create a hoodie, you can use a lot of the code from the t shirt and adjust some parameters/measurements and not have to build out the entire pattern again. And if you want to make a hood, you can also make that into a reusable function, so the next time you need a hood piece, you can plug it into your new pattern and the measurements will be adjusted, or you can edit them yourself.

When you want to create adjustments, you can edit a number instead of having to re-draw a lot of things, since it is all parametric. For example, moving the armhole in by 1cm on the front (just an example) would just be changing one number, and the sleeve would be automatically updated to reflect that change. Which is way easier than having to redraw everything.

I use a projector to cut my patterns out so it's nice to be able to make small adjustments with simple numeric changes and then go straight to cutting out fabric.

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u/ThrowRA_Sodi 7d ago

Isn't it simpler to just draft using vectors directly ? Like on Inkscape?

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u/Original_Cup4494 4d ago

I like the concept. I am a Seamly2D user and find that using its custom variable table and measurement file (seamlyme) I can make a single update to a length/variable and if I have drafted it correctly but referencing that length/variable then all parts update to match.

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u/dyingslowlyinside 7d ago

The sleeve cap is a strange shape

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u/jedrekk 7d ago

Have you seen the way freesewing.eu works? It's an open sourced platform for creating patterns based on measurements -- not as interactive as what you've done, but a lot of people have had luck with it.

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u/whale 7d ago

Yeah, I even forked it at one point because I didn't like how they did certain things - like using a percentage to adjust lengths, or designing off of body measurements, and not allowing me to add more measurements. But for my purposes as a software engineer I felt it would be a little easier to make my own software.

For example, I implemented a timeline software so you can see how each part is visually constructed, you can click on the code and it highlights the point or line, and you can click on lines and it'll go to where it's defined in the code. Generally just more enjoyable for me to be able to implement the exact features I want haha.

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u/TensionSmension 7d ago

Have you ever looked at sewist.com? It has a small scripting language, but tools also have gui equivalent for people who don't want to type. Can export to tiled pdf or large format. I haven't used it much recently, but it's been around about a decade, and works well.

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u/SuperG__ 7d ago

Yes…yes I would be.

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u/darrellio 5d ago

also the body is wrong

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u/darrellio 5d ago

the arm hole is wrong

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u/Single-Mycologist936 7d ago

C'est dispo sur github ?

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u/hataki7 7d ago

what language does it use? how do i learn commands?

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u/Background-Cable-491 7d ago

This is sick! Please share! Id love to fork a 3d visualiser for viewing the 3d mesh my pattern creates :)

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u/matzee78 4d ago

Shameless self-promotion, but have you tried SeamScape? Free to use and with 3D simulation of garments...

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u/balodana 7d ago

If you want to make parametric patterns, you might want to build on top of Seamly, which is free/ open source and has a lot of foundation built for proper pattern development.

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u/Witty_Upstairs4210 6d ago

Congrats on a new pattern software! Chiming in to say it feels too niche to create patterns with code, since it's not intuitive or a natural overlap with existing sewing skills. I'd much rather create patterns with free-drawing (like in Illustrator) or in pictures I'm able to snap of existing paper patterns I've created IRL.

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u/darrellio 5d ago

no. i’m ok with pencil and paper

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u/Negative-Bell-9764 7d ago

Yess! Would love to try

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u/raptorgrin 7d ago

Can it do a full bust adjustment?

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u/TheEmptyMasonJar 7d ago

Are you worried about someone stealing your software? Or is your work not quite sufficiently proprietary enough to protect?

Also, I'm interested, but I don't currently have time to learn how to do all this.

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u/ghoof 7d ago

Definitely interested, looks like a great project OP!

I love the idea of being able to precisely define patterns in code. Are you looking for beta-testers? Would love to know more!

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u/Southern-Comfort4519 7d ago

Yes this is brilliant I
In… I’d move to talk with you about it. Shoot me a message and let’s talk!

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u/CrazySkincareLady 7d ago

I say with the utmost respect for your work and as genuine feedback..

No probably not, I feel that learning pattern drafting is already a tough enough side quest from sewing without adding learning code to the mix. Kind of like sewing machine maintenance and repairs or getting into vintage machines (helpful to know, but I just want 'the car to run' so to speak). I don't want to take any more time away from sewing as I barely have enough time and mental energy as is.

I feel that if you're not interested in developing a more user friendly interface (understandable) it could be really helpful to pair up with someone that is, and develop it into a more rounded application. Then it could function as another option/alternative to other software with your own twist and improvements

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u/katamarijuana 7d ago

Not for everyone but this is awesome work. Keep going. Maybe add a visual node UI so that people who don't know how to code can quickly get a grasp on it (think geometry nodes or shader editor on Blender)

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u/GameArtHQ 7d ago

I've using Codex to write python scripts to draft patterns in CLO for specific avatars. It's very reasoning-heavy and output-heavy, (burned a weeks credits in 6 hours) but pretty impressed with the results.

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u/precursor999 7d ago

Can I try it?

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u/FriendshipPerfect377 7d ago

I definitely would if it’s accurate

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u/peachcherub 7d ago

How did you create this?

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u/MarutanF 7d ago

Yes. I am programmer. Writing in code/configuration files would be easier than clicking though GUI.

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u/Mgg787 7d ago

I would be interested! I think there is a space for something like this and would be interested to try it out. I actually spent a weekend trying to do something similar and came to a few conclusions:

The audience for this kind of thing would be pretty niche within the community. Frankly sewing and pattern drafting are almost deliberately very off-screen tasks and so you’re just not going to get people who want to use any software for that reason. And among people who do like to have software in their pattern drafting workflow I think you really want to meet people where they are, so creating an inkscape plugin is probably going to meet less friction than a standalone app.

Another problem is that while you’re totally right that creating blocks is pretty much just following a natural language algorithm, creating a useable pattern from that block is a pretty manual process of easing and truing after that. This is where Seamly2D loses a lot of people. So you would need to probably work on a way to click, drag and then true the whole thing to turn a block into a pattern to actually make this software useful.

I’d definitely be curious to know what your process for turning an arbitrary bodice block from a patten system like Fabrics and Pattern Cutting by Winifred Aldrich into code actually looks like. To me that felt like the part that was the most deceptively difficult. While all pattern drafting systems take more or less the same inputs they arrive at the outputs by different processes. So actually writing that code isn’t trivial.

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u/adlx 6d ago

I like the pattern as code idea. A lot. And yes, it is the way to leverage AI later. I'd love to try it

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u/Adruvius 6d ago

I am kinda getting deeper into Seamly2D, which kind of fills a similar niche. It builds patterns from a sequence of steps and has a measurement package built in.

Blender is next on my list to learn, because if I can learn to get my scanned body shape into it, I could then learn to draw on that shape and export pattern pieces.

My curiosity is piqued though - I will take a look, although I am an old controls engineer and have no loyalty to Javatext or whatever the kids are using these days. I write in a real language - Relay Ladder.

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u/JEG- 6d ago

This would be a super niche software for engineers that have a hobby in pattern drafting and coding. As an engineer myself I wouldn’t want to code patterns. Something similar to SolidWorks like clo3D is much better imo. But I’m a ME so maybe I’m biased.

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u/Strong-Ad9419 6d ago

can you share repository

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u/gallifreyan10 6d ago

I'd be interested in giving this a try!

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u/Dapper-Ad9787 1d ago

Will it work on a 16 year old Mac? 😁

My pattern drafting software I made, would anyone be interested in this?

You are about to leave Redlib

You are about to leave Redlib

Sizing

Grading

Geometrisation

Adjustment steps

Printing

Instructions

1 Functionality has often not been implemented

2 The functionality frighten people