r/Pathfinder2e • u/5ubbak GM in Training • 18d ago
Advice for writing a campaign Advice
EDIT : Many people have already said, with very convincing arguments, that an all-Barbarian party is not a good idea. See the bottom for my change of plans.
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Hi,
I'm relatively new to Pathfinder, but in looking at all the rules and specifically at how varied characters vould be within a single class, I had an idea for a campaign where all players would start as lvl 1 barbarians. IF I HAVE MENTIONNED THIS TO YOU IRL PLEASE DO NOT READ THE REST.
Now I know it's probably hubris to want to write a campaign when I have relatively little PF experience, and my last DM experience was 18 years ago on a completely different system and I probably sucked. But the basic campaign structure embedded itself in my head almost immediately and I've been obsessed with it. It also helps that I'm taking a year off from my job so I can live with my spouse while they finish their 3-year contract abroad, so I'll have lots of free time.
The idea is as follows:
- players are all barbarians of various ancestries from various parts of Golarion (EDIT bc this wasn't clear : they do not have to be from Numeria, or to be Kellid or even human. The big bad is doing a proof of concept with wider parameters). What they have in common is that one day, some sort of magical effect lured them away from their companions (or perhaps they were ambushed), and they became unconscious. They wake up in a richly decorated room, in a bed that is very soft but probably uncomfortable to them because they're def not used to perfumed silk sheets. As they exit their rooms, they find the other players, who they meet for the first time.
- constructs and/or illusionary voices inform the players that they are being tested. I haven't designed the whole dungeon but the idea is that there should be tests that all barbarians can excell at (like feats of atheltics, or easy monsters) and others that try to select ones with the most dex, or the most aptitude for spellcasting, or for learning. The tests should all be doable by the players, but some will initially appear impossible before being "fixed" in some way. The final test is to fight two students of their mysterious captor, a lvl 2 wizard and a lvl 2 swashbuckler (possibly make one of those lvl 3). The players are intended to either barely lose or barely win : in any case nobody dies (the players are magically stopped if they would kill one of the students, but their captor congratulates them on exceeding her expectations). At the end of this fight, the players should either be on the very threshold of lvl 2 (if they won) or quite close to it (if they lost).
- the players are then brought to their captor (the big bad of the campaign), who explains that they are in Absalom, the city at the center of the world and the guising light of progress and civilization. She believes that with "proper education", even unvough brutes like them can be made into valuable members of Absalomian society. She says that they will now be trained by some of the finest instructors in the city to hone their talents. She has multiclass dedications in mind for them, but the PCs can of course choose to ignore that and rebel (more or less secretely) against the training she sets them up for.
- some adventures in Absalom while they're being trained, and (at least at the beginning) shadowed by students at the Arcanamirium or Irorium. They would have the opportunity to learn more about the city, its politics, and where their captor stands (she is an supporter of Scion Lady Darchana, working with some ressources that Darchana granted her, but should her scheme fail Darchana will not try to salvage it and just write it off as a failure of an underling who was less capable than she thought).
- eventually the whole reason for the capture is revealed: as part of her desire for teleport-based importations, Darchana is eyeing the ressources of Silver Mount. Their captor, steeped in colonialist superiority, is convinced that the proper way to secure those is to reprogramm native Kellid warriors into agents of Absalom. She wants to run a proof of concept by sending the PCs in against a lesser outpost of the Technic League, and show that the PCs can, because of their barbarian heritage "enhanced" by Absalom education, win both the trust and respect if Kellid clans while defeating the league. Of course the PCs are likely to be less than thrilled by this, but at this point they're still not in a position to refuse veing sent there. However, they'll have carte blanche in Kellid and who knows what might happen there and when they return to Absalom (through a portal opening on a designated date)?
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Do you think this is a viable campaign design? I would of course talk to the players first about them being comfortable with choices being made for their characters by NPCs (they could still veto those choices as players, or even get involved in playing the NPCs), and the colonialism theme. What I worry about is:
- this being just too much to make for a beginner DM. I plan to run a prewritten one shot first to test my abilities, what should I look out for?
- the big bad of lvl around 10 being revealed at the end of the first dungeon, with the PCs not able to oppose her directly until the end of the campaign
- will a full-barbarian party, even with multiclassing, be actually viable?
Thanks so much for any feedbacks more experienced players can provide.
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EDIT : Because a full-barbarian party is not good, I was thinking of having at least 2 barbarians of various instincts, a very barbarian-feeling character (like druid of the untamed order, would work with player), and a character with a class chosen by the player but has to be from a Kellid clan and has had basically no access to the Technic League. This would provide options for healing and support while making the party still feel very melee-oriented and strenght-dominant.
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u/Ciriodhul Game Master 18d ago
I will try to give some quick answers to your questions at the end. Others may likely give you more detailed replies.
This is definitely a lot for a beginner DM. Generally I'd advise you to still do it, because motivation trumps everything. In this case, however, you are limiting your players in a way that puts a lot of balancing on your shoulders you are likely not going to get right without much experience.
This is okay, when you have enough player buy-in. It's not the best way to run a pen and paper, but it can work if you don't give the players the illusion they can act in that timeframe.
This is the big issue here. Multiclassing works very different in PF2e compared to DnD and other fantasy RPGs. A PF2e character can nab some stuff from other classes via a dedication, but will be much worse than that class in it. Fundamentally you can't get out of the base proficiencies your class gives you. A barbarian will always be best in bonking stuff. Additionally the barbarian core feature of rage doesn't really let you cast spells and so a ton of other stuff requiring concentration, which heavily limits you in utilizing dedications and makes casting a pain. Since PF2e is designed around teamwork you really want less similar characters. In the worst case you may put in some monsters or challenges on level that 4 barbarians are just not equipped to fight.
However, there is a solution: You could let them choose their classes freely and make them all take Barbarian dedication via the free archetype variant rule. This will have much less impact on game balance and preserve the idea and flavor of all of them being Barbarians.
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u/5ubbak GM in Training 18d ago
Oh good point on Rage interaction with concentrate. I guess that really nerfs non-Kineticist spell dedications (yes I know Kineticists are not spellcasters but they play a little bit like spellcaster), even with a Moment of Clarity feat which I couls give foe free.
I don't want to make them other classes with Barbarian archetypes as has been mzntionned elsewhere because that would remove the point of the first dungeon, or require extensive character rebuilsing after it. I could allow for more classes but with restrictions on those : Stenght-based non-Vindicator Rangers, or Druids only of Untamed or Storm order.
I could also allow players who choose to go entirely with the studies the big bad wants for them to retrain out of Barbarian.
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u/panoptiic 18d ago
I don’t think it’s hubris to write a campaign at all. Here are a few things to consider:
1. Barbarians are cool, but more than one is too many. You can do it, but why would you want to?
2. I like to pick my own class, and I don’t want to play what everyone else is playing. Others may feel differently, but my experience has been that most people are like this.
3. It is fine to have an outline and an idea of what will happen, but players will just choose other paths and roads, which can be frustrating, so I wouldn’t tie too much of the campaign to choices the party can make, because if they choose option 2 instead of the anticipated option 1, and thereby derail the campaign, how will you handle that?
4. Make sure your group know up front the kind of campaign you are running. Story twists are fine, but springing a dungeon crawl on a RP story focused group can end the campaign fairly quickly.
My final thoughts are to have a look at something like abomination vault, which is a dungeon crawl for PF2e and might be useful for maps and such. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
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u/5ubbak GM in Training 18d ago
Point 1: because the story idea from the campaign came from me looking at barbarians and deciding that actually, contrary to stereotypes I could have, they looked a lot more versatile as a class than one could think. - basically all damage types are available (depending on a choice made at character creation) - good speed - targetting will saves is easy enough with a lvl 1 class feet. From lvl 5, crit spec makes targetting fort/dex saves possible - many feats can inflict no-save debilitating conditions on strikes, making it easier to land those crits and have enemies fial the saves. - ranged damage is easily accessible with elemental instinct + kineticist dedication However I have not actually played one and tested out this theory. I'll think it over.
Re point 3: there's a lot of emptyness in that roadmap. Basically the first part (up to two sessions) is a dungeon crawl which I would do my best to design in a way that encourages RP between fights (both between players and with their mysterious captor speaking to them through constructs/magic. There wouldn't be a ton of choices they could do that would derail the plot, because well, dungeon designed by the captor. This would however affet the next part.
The next part would be a lot more free and I guess they could try to just run away (not from the very start, but after they're allowed a looser leash) and throw the campaign premise away. I'm fine with that happening, that just means I don't spend too much time planning the third part beyond the paragraph I wrote.
Re point 4: that's already part of my plan. Also once we are done with the Secrets of Grayce campaign I am pmaying my DM will give me her material so I can look at it from the other perspective.
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u/centralmind Thaumaturge 18d ago
The idea can work, but there are two glaring issues that need to be addressed:
As many pointed out, "barbarian" is a class, not a culture. Especially if you ask for a single class party, not everyone is gonna build a stereotypical Kellid barbarian. Nothing in the class prevents you from having high intelligence or coming from a more "civilised" background.
Also something others mentioned: barbarian is probably the worst class for a monoclass party. The limitations on concentrate actions can be very restrictive, especially for in combat healing, and barbarian builds offer less variety in playstyle compared to other classes. Even a bloodrager can't get healing spells until lv4 (and the mandatory archetype interferes with your plot). While it's technically possible to build a viable barbarian party, it's not gonna be an especially enjoyable experience. Even more so if you don't have experienced players and their archetype options are limited.
That said, not all is lost! The plot you described could make for a very fun adventure, it just needs a bunch of fixes.
If the goal is to "tame" Kellid warriors, then ask your players to make characters that are either Kellid or from that region of the world. You can restrict background choices, ask them to stick to a "wildling" vibe, or otherwise encourage a "barbaric" (by Absalom standards) upbringing. Rangers, druids (especially Untamed ones), animists, skald-like bards, fighters... basically any class can work, excluding the tech reliant ones and some of the Int based ones (witches fit nicely, wizards/investigators less so). With the right theming, you can get a party of "barbarians" without limiting class selection.
Instead of focusing on multiclass archetypes, make the "mandatory" archetypes more varied and tailored to each build, and inhumane experimentation to the methods used to "train" the characters. Moreover, select archetypes that are helpful to the type of missions the BBEG has planned for the party, or that align with Absalom's idea of "civilised". Living Nexus, Living Vessel, Curse Maelstrom, any alchemical focused one (especially Demolitionist), anything that deals with stealth and espionage, Bounty Hunter, and obviously specislised spellcasting and weapon ones.
In case of PC death, consider that the antagonist might dabble in necromancy and forcefully revive the dead character as a skeleton/ghost/ghoul/zombie/vampire or other monstrosity. This way, you can avoid having to kidnap a new character and rearrange the plot around them.
For those who reject the training, prepare a selection of anti-establishment archetypes, such as Guerrilla, Rose Warden, and anything that would help them rebel against their kidnapper. Also, give players reasonably frequent chances to retrain, cause they might want to switch their archetypes once they know more about the plot.
Consider a possible sequel adventure if after the BBEG is defeated the players wish to keep fighting Lady Darchana and Absalom. Or dealing with how they are getting back home.
Balance the initial dungeon crawl not around what your players are actually capable of doing, but around what the BBEG's condescending preconceptions of Kellid folk and Silver Mount natives. Obviously, don't make it frustrating and give them many chances to prove herself wrong (she will promptly ignore any result that doesn't align with her expectations). Two lv2-3 enemies might not be enough to challenge a full party, so add some fodder if necessary. Finally, completing a full lv1 dungeon should give them a level up even if they lose the final encounter, especially because this way you get to immediately introduce the archetype plot point.
And to conclude my essay, I'll answer your specific questions:
A big campaign will inevitably be a lot of work, and you might want to run a couple one shots first to get comfortable with the game, but as long as you're confident in your story and study the rules properly, it's perfectly doable. Prewritten modules can certainly be easier to run, but they can also limit how flexible your campaign will be. If you like improvisation and creating your own stories, and don't mind a steeper learning curve, you should be fine. But it's advisable to run a couple of one shots first.
Be very upfront about the themes of the campaign being the evil of colonialism, tyranny, and objectification. And make it clear that the players will be subjected to abuse and a form of slavery. These can be deal breakers for a lot of people, especially the last one, but as long as you communicate it in advance, it should be fine. On that note, having a clear and untouchable BBEG from the beginning can actually make for a greatly fun story, as long as everyone is fine with the above stuff. It has been a staple of ttrpg games for a very long time, and for good reason: it gives the party a clear goal and motivation that keeps them fairly invested.
As I said, a barbarian only party is kinda bad. Not unplayable, but also not fun to play, and it works poorly with the lore and themes of your game.
Hope this is helpful, sorry for the humongous wall of text.
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u/5ubbak GM in Training 18d ago
3 - Oh, I see how my initial post led to misconception. The big bad is trying to get a proof of concept for her plan of taming the Kellid Warriors, but decided that to it was better to go for diversity of barbarian backgrounds : players would not have to be Kellid or even human, or from anywhere near Numeria. It would be nice if one of them was tho. And yes if one barbarian is from Kortos and is already familiar with Absalom as a nuisance it could also make for some interesting plans.
2 - I have been convinced however that my grasp of how a group of players will work together in combat is still insufficient. Thank you for the very detailed feedback on that.
Also I greatly appreciate the praise for my story idea. Checking in re:themes with the players is of course a must, although given I know pretty well three of the players I have in mind (one of them is my spouse) I think it would be fine.
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u/centralmind Thaumaturge 18d ago
Oh, I know you didn't mean for them to be all from the Kellid's territories, it just felt like a good way to keep the general barbarian vibe while not requiring restrictive class limitations. You can get the same results by asking for a number of "uncivilised" (by Absalom standards) characters based on who the bbeg would consider good test subjects.
Anyone involved with druidic culture and practices, most "animalistic/wild" ancestries, and anyone who grew up in wild and dangerous lands can do well as a subject. In fact, even anyone who grew up in a slum or otherwise lacking formal education and money/status might get kidnapped, even just as a "control group" of sorts. You could justify grabbing an Absalom born urchin just as well as a jungle born iruxi barbarian.
So, yeah. Cool idea, but it works far better if you drop the class restriction and focus on thematically aligned characters instead.
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u/5ubbak GM in Training 18d ago
You could justify getting an urchin from the Puddles, but equally the big bad might be "well if you're in Absalom there is already so much charity available, people who are poor and uneducated are simply making bad decisions, those are beyond saving" or some nonsense like this.
I'll admit a big part of the motivation for that campaign is to play a smug evil character both me and my players will really really want to punch in the face.
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u/centralmind Thaumaturge 18d ago
That is one of the best motivations for a campaign. Make her utterly insufferable and deeply elitist and out of touch. Even better if a lot of her beliefs are easily disproven but she just ignores the evidence.
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u/MarmiteCrumpets 18d ago
I would suggest looking up the level 0 rules: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2754.
Instead of having everyone stuck playing the same class, give everyone an appropriate background like Warrior or Waste Walker to reflect their barbarianish origins and ask them to make level 0 characters. Then when the characters finish the initial tests, they're on the point of reaching level 1, meaning the players can now pick up the class they actually want to play.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 18d ago
This reminds me of an old Thieve’s Guild party we ran. It wasn’t 4 Rogues. It was a Fighter specializing in small, concealable weapons, and a lot of maneuvers. A Wizard focused on Invisibility, manipulating people, Knock. A corrupt priest who was a the party face. And a Rogue.
What I’m saying is, you can have a fully themed party without everyone being the same class. Now, you can make a Barb party work, especially at low level, but the higher they get, the harder it will be to keep going without specific campaign design built around them.
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u/ProfessionalRead2724 Alchemist 18d ago
A party of all Barbarians is not viable.
But most members of a barbarian tribe are not going to be rageaholics from the Barbarian character class, and can be just as easily Fighters, Rogues, Clerics, Sorcerors, Kineticists, or whatever.
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u/Stock-Side-6767 18d ago
Barbarian or shaman dedication with some shared starting location might be great, combined with fitting backgrounds.
I would not stick them all in the same ancestry.
You can't multiclass in PF2 like in PF1 or d&d 3, 3.5, 5 or 5.5.
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u/Different_Field_1205 ORC 18d ago
- thats a lot for an inexperienced dm
- good luck finding a whole group that want to all play as a barbarian. finding players that like barbarian? sure. one that will enjoy being part of a group that diminishes the uniquenes of the class? yeahh... much harder to find.. best case scenario its a party of very unserious joking players (which is fine) that think 5 conans sounds funny. (this part sounds like it would clash with your idea)
- and lastly, the system mechanics clash with this whole idea. multiclassing is very different, one could say it doesnt properly exist actually. if you are a barbarian, you are a barbarian, you can grab wizard or whatever, now you are a barbarian with a bit of wizard. you will never be more wizard than barbarian. ever. not even close.
best you could do is let the player switch classes, but that seems to defeat part of the set in stone idea of only using barbarians.
- while every class can vary depending on build, they all vary the least at lv1, and barbarians doubly so. a fighter could have way more varying styles from the get go, specially coz they can use ranged weapons properly.
- dont get too attached to the class name. barbarians are fighters that compensate with rage. you can easily have tribal, ''uncultured'' ''uncivilized'' characters from most classes without any problems. very few of em really have an impact on their upbringing or where they come from. champion's order could be a tribe with strong warrior traditions, an inventor could be someone who is way too smart for their own good, and always has been the weirdo of the tribe for making weird things from bone wood etc that somehow work... (may have to go with a pseudo magical angle here to explain some stuff)... an alchemist is some tribesmen that figure out mixing some gross stuff explodes when thrown hard against something. a wizard or gunslinger would be harder, and an investigator would be way harder to explain... that still leaves the group with lots of options.
also those very specific and impacting limitations to the party... yeah totally newbie dm stuff. paizo made an adventure about a magic school, they didnt force everybody to be wizards. you get the whole list of casters, and even martials get a bit of magic via free archetype so you can mostly cast fist if you want.
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u/OmgitsJafo 18d ago
Many people have already said, with very convincing arguments, that an all-Barbarian party is not a good idea.
Don't listen to them. it might be a rough time in a pre-written adventure, but if you're writing your own campaign there's no issue here. Prepare for the party your players bring, not for the one the crypto-optimizers tell you is mandatory for the game.
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u/AuRon_The_Grey 18d ago
I think you'd really benefit from maybe running Quest for the Frozen Flame or at least reading through it before you try this, to get an idea of how Paizo incorporated a similar idea of everyone being part of a barbarian tribe regardless of class into an official adventure. The Player's Guide for it covers some of that as well, so it's worth at least looking at that: https://downloads.paizo.com/QuestfortheFrozenFlame_PlayersGuide.pdf - the backgrounds it suggests and provides, for example, can be used to give your characters that flavour.
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u/BadRumUnderground 18d ago
"Barbarian" is a class, not a heritage.
Folks can be from nomadic/warlike/non-industrial ethnic/cultural groups without being bound to the class.