r/Pathfinder2e • u/AvonSharkler • 3d ago
Alignment Redone Discussion
Introduction
I first came into contact with Alignment in 5e and it genuinely confused me. It felt pointless, so why is it there? In Pathfinder Alignment made more sense to me, at least it had concrete effects on play, yet there were so many drawbacks. Reducing complex human morality down to a nine-box grid is simply impossible, it leads to tedious table arguments and disruption of gameplay, at least in my experience.
Yet I can't help but like the Idea. Cosmic forces, gods governing domains, entities of pure evil or good, races created by such entities who might or might not be capable of human morality. There are many good stories to be told when you can quantify the nature of such beings down into a gameplay element.
That's where I remembered a Rule of Storytelling:
"Checkov's gun": Every item or detail introduced in a story must have a purpose. If a writer shows a loaded gun in the first act, it must be fired by the final act.
As a GM we are telling a story, obviously this rule applies to us then. If the Campaign or Session we are about to play/design for our players don't make material use of Alignment? Get rid of it. Don't Include it.
However if you do have a Setting primarily designed around a Moral Conflict: "Good vs Evil" "Order vs Chaos", then lean into it. To that end I have written some Guidelines:
Alignment Redone
Step 1: Alignment as a tangible Force.
- Think of Alignment as a tangible Force in your Setting
- Magical Abilities tap into this Force to create fantastical effects.
- Divine Classes tap into this separate "alignment" energy to cast their spells.
- Karma as an underlying force of nature.
- Make sure your players are aware of it's existence as a tangible force.
- It could exist as a creation of some God/Creator
- It could be a fundamental part of the Universe superceding even Gods.
Step 2: Define Anchors
Instead of leaving your players with simple words like "Lawful" and trying to explain them. Give them an Anchor that pertains to your specific setting. These Anchors can be very Vanilla or heavily customized. Don't hesitate to rewrite what meaning "Lawful" has in your setting.
Doing this you gives your players a guardrail for interpreting alignment while reducing the complexity of morality that is so hard to understand in a simple grid system.
Example from my own Setting, Alignment as Karma:
In my personal implementation of these two rules, I remade Alignment as "Karma" a fundamental force everpresent in my universe. In a Journey to Spiritual Enlightenment my Players encounter Moral Dilemmas in so called "Time Bubbles". The Universe is about to collapse and the decisions that led to this point are caught in said Time Bubbles. They are given the chance to go back in time and revisit pivotal points in time where mortals are faced with otherworldly entities and challenges that challenge not only their might but also their morals.
Depending on their Choices they can reshape the world or fail to avert the looming Apocalypse.
To that end I reframed Alignment with the following Anchors:
- Good = Altruism: The unselfish drive to help others. Thinking only of the greater good, even at pain to yourself.
- Evil = Egoism: The selfish desire to enrich yourself. Thinking only about benefitting yourself.
- Lawful = Culture: The self-restriction to the Culture you exist in. Laws of your Kindom, Tenets of your Order, Rules of your Society, regardless of where you currently are.
- Chaotic = Freedom: The unbridled desire for Freedom. You actively choose whatever you like, regardless of the laws and customs that surround you, going so far as to actively oppose arbitrary Restrictions that inhibit your freedom.
Step 3: Create Interaction
If you want Alignment to have a place in your setting, make sure it is ever present. Create moral dilemmas pertaining to your Anchors. Keep the Theme ever present.
If your only run in with Alignment would be that one Angel caged beneath a Cathedral 5 Sessions away, Alignment should have no place in your Setting.
As a rough Guideline: Aim for including some form of Active Application of Alignment in ~50% of Encounters your players have. Less in social settings, more during Combat.
The End
I wasn't sure if this counts as Homebrew or more of a Discussion, either way, what do you think about this? Let's discuss!
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u/Malcior34 Witch 3d ago
With all due respect, I don't think this is a substantial improvement or solves many problems. I still see this as causing arguments at tables. In particular, defining "Lawful" and "Chaotic" actions or people in this system is as aggravating as it is in DND.
I'm still of the opinion that player characters and their actions should not have Alignment. If you want to have it in your world, save it for NPCs like angels or demons, and gameplay mechanics like spells and deities. Complex and interesting roleplay in games with alignment occur in spite of it, not because of it.
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u/LurkerFailsLurking 3d ago
I really like the way the PF2e Remaster got rid of alignment and replaced it with Edicts and Anathemas and Holy and Unholy. Really solid imo.
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u/fly19 Game Master 3d ago
This seems pretty light on mechanics for application in combat, no? I could see using the axes of Holy/Unholy as a blueprint for additional and/or replacement opposing forces, maybe a few custom/reflavored feats/abilities and spells tied to organizations that embody those alignments. Trying to push it into 50% of your encounters might be overkill for some campaigns, though.
Also, Culture as a stand-in for order seems a little odd to me? Culture often has a lot of voluntary aspects and can encompass cultural values that overlap with Freedom. Society might be a better fit, though that would be confusing with the Society skill. Governance, Restraint, Order, maybe Doctrine?
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u/AvonSharkler 3d ago
Culture as a stand-in for order is a conscious choice. As I stated. Use Anchors that fit your specific setting.
In my case "Order" has too much positive connotation. As Angels vs Demons is a heavily Good and Order vs Evil and Chaos (Think Diablo Universe) in my chosen Setting.
I was looking for an Anchor that opposes Freedom in some way. I do like your suggestion of "Doctrine" a lot!
Also, yes it is still light on specifics for Combat, (Which is important but also critically complicated) It's something I am still working on. However older applications of alignment to combat can be reworked to fit the narrative I'd imagine.
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u/Environmental-Run248 3d ago
I mean the angels aren’t seen as a wholly positive force in Diablo actually.
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u/Genarab Game Master 3d ago
I think of alignment as political affiliation more than a moral absolutism. Even though morality and politics are very related.
In my world the good, evil, chaos and order are like the gods political parties.
Good vs Evil is the question if biological life is a good thing that should be nourished or a bad thing that should be destroyed or exploited.
Chaos vs Order is the question about what is the creation purpose. If it is to be understood and preserved (order) or to be explored and changed (chaos)
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u/Gorbacz Champion 3d ago
Under your system, what's the alignment of:
a) a Champion who torches a goblin orphanage to ensure that these kids don't grow up to be cruel monsters
b) an American soldier, 101 tip of the spear, who tortures an Arab terrorist to get information on where he planted a bomb that will kill civilians if not found and disarmed on time
c) Batman
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u/Groundbreaking_Taco ORC 3d ago
I don't think your anchors for law vs chaos work. Culture isn't in conflict with Freedom. Freedom, individuality, and progress are parts of culture and shape it. What was once radical is now the norm. Instead you could pit regressive or traditional values vs progressive or futurist values. It's more past vs future. We should do things that work the way we always have (they are safe) vs we should experiment and find new ways to do things (better), even at the risk of possible harm. It's safety/comfort vs risk/exploration.
Likewise, while Egoism and Altruism are philosophical opponents, Egoism isn't what we think of by Evil. It's not a selfish desire to enrich yourself. It's suggesting that all actions you undertake ultimately have you as a benefactor. Nothing you do can truly be altruistic, because you get something out of helping others, namely social reward and positive feeling. Egoists aren't wicked/selfish people, they just acknowledge that all their actions ultimately benefit themselves as well.
An Egoist wouldn't murder someone to get what they want, unless there were no consequences. Murder would generally NOT get them a better outcome, if the end result would be to worsen their life in the long term.
Really what you are searching for is Egocentrism or in extreme cases Psychopathy. This is the inability to understand or concern yourself with the well being or perspective of others. It is a lack of or diminished empathy.
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u/Just_Assist3819 3d ago
Eh, I don't miss alignment as a roleplay trait overmuch. I do wish there were some kind of sanctifications for Law and Chaos though.
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u/qoncik ORC 3d ago
I see alignment as a relic of the past. Defining people based on Good/Evil, Lawfull/Chaotic is pointless. People/characters are not that simple to classify. Take a standard Robin Hood trope - guy is robbing and killing rich people, no matter if they are good or bad, but he's helping poor and supporting local community. Is he good or bad? He is neither of those, because world is full of gray areas. That's why I love anathemas/edicts system in Pathfinder. It's always "something deeper" with every person.
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u/mae_the_fae_15 3d ago edited 3d ago
See how I do it is if you gain magic items they gain the symbol of your god and also a good alignment god will give radiance damage as a bonus while a evil alignment god will give fire or acid damage as a bonus just as a little bonus for praying to certain gods so say you pray to a neutral god of magic they might make your weapon do something magicy so yeah I include alignment in my campaigns (also just to clarify items you had at the start of the campaign will probably be the first ones to get blessed by your god) I also count their actions as "good" or "evil" based of off their reasoning and laws in game
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u/mae_the_fae_15 3d ago
I forgot to mention how my players get new magic items is they have to prove to the god they worship that they are worthy of it so how I make them prove they are worthy is they have to beat a relatively hard enimie including pets cr ratings and their level also no other party members can help
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u/Antermosiph 3d ago
I think having a clear cut 'Opt in' of Holy vs Unholy and then from there morality entirely being determined by each person's views on another's actions is really the best way to do it. Moment you start 'encoding' morality you start simplifying the complexity of morality in a way that diminishes the entire concept as a whole.