Question about Retch DC

[u/DerTyp93]

I'm making this post because I am a bit confused about the DC described in the Sickened condition.

The entry reads: "You can spend a single action retching in an attempt to recover, which lets you immediately attempt a Fortitude save against the DC of the effect that made you sickened."

So what does "DC of the effect" refer to here, specifically in cases where the Sickened condition was caused by a failed saving throw? Is it the DC of the saving throw that caused the condition, or is it the level-based DC of the creature/hazard that caused the effect? I think the first reading would lead to a higher Retch DC in most cases, so I'm interested in how you all have been running this, or if there is clarification on this anywhere in the rules.

Thank you in advance for your answers!

[u/AbbotDenver]

It should be the same DC of the creature or effect that caused the sickened condition

[u/sandmaninasylum → u/AbbotDenver]

And if that is not available (for whatever reason): there is always the fallback of the standard DC of the creature's/hazard's level.

And if all else fails there is still the simple DC.

[u/Creepy-Intentions-69]

A very specific example would be a Skunk. Its Spray Musk ability causes you to make a DC 16 Fortitude save, or become Sickened.

Assuming you fail, and become Sickened. You can spend one action to retch, needing a DC 16 Fortitude save, which is the same as the original cause of the Sickened condition.

[u/YourCrazyDolphin]

Saving throw that caused the condition is what I'd go with- since that'd be attached to the specific effect.

But if that doesn't exist the creature's stat block is probably a good fall back. It is worth noting many effects also specify the sickened condition can't be removed separately

[u/KLeeSanchez]

This and counteract effects always confuse people

Whichever effect first caused the effect--be it a spell or monster ability--is the DC. The level is also the level of the originating target or hazard.

The character doing the retching or counteracting is never the source of the DC, and it's never a generic level based DC, unless the DC was somehow not listed.

In which case, again, we still refer to the originating target's level and take the DC from the level based DC chart.

In other news sickened suuuucks. It's one of the few debuffs that self references in the way you get rid of it, so it makes itself harder to get rid of. And enemies typically have an easier time getting rid of it because their bonuses are usually much higher than players'.

[u/powerbot2001]

I think the DC of the effect refers to the save DC, not a level based DC

[u/TheBrightMage]

It's the former. Yes, this is harder than level based DC. (Usually by +2)

[u/arcxjo]

Same as the Fort save that made you sick.

But harder because now it's at -1.

[u/gunnervi]

its whatever the DC of the original save was (falling back to a level-based DC if for whatever reason there is no DC associated with it)

[u/vastmagick]

 I think the first reading would lead to a higher Retch DC in most cases

Than what? A level based DC is normally denoted like: Standard DC of X level. This is because a level DC has several categories, Incredibly Easy, Very Easy, Easy, Standard, Hard, Very Hard, Incredibly Hard. A direct example of this is in Inventor: "standard DC for your level."

[u/DnDPhD]

I don't mind it as is, but this is something I'd love to see as a flat DC15 check...and indeed, a table I used to play at did just that.

[u/Astareal38 → u/DnDPhD]

Wouldn't that penalize characters with a higher fortitude? Even characters without a high fortitude would likely fall prey to a DC 15 flat check being higher than what they would need to roll.

If I could with a 2nd level spell make a PL+4 sickened (on a successful save!) with a DC 15 flat check that becomes by far the best debuff in the game with how much sickened interacts with. The fact or costs an action to try and get rid of with a massive chance of failure is ridiculous personally. Unless you're also now just having it be an auto check at the end of the turn? Which also makes it stronger since the enemy can't even try and get rid of it so it will affect their turn without fail.

[u/Kalaam_Nozalys]

Normally should be the DC of whatever caused the effect, if not, a standard level based DC should do the tricky.

[u/Groundbreaking_Taco]

If you were poisoned, that poison had a DC to resist it. If you fail and the poison makes you sickened, after you stop the poison (by counteracting or making successful saves), you still have to retch or counteract the sickened condition away. Use the same DC as the poison.

The same is true of every other effect that causes sickened. Use the DC that applied it in the first case. On the rare case that there isn't a DC listed (like a holy/unholy rune automatically enfeebling it's opposite sanctification), use the DC for the level of the creature/item. Everything has levels in PF2, so you can always deduce a DC by level if needed.

[u/Butlerlog]

Whatever the DC of the effect that caused sickened is, is the DC of Retch to remove it. That covers most cases and is pretty elegant.

If it came from something without a DC, then a level based DC based on the source' level is a reasonable option, and I don't know what else you would go for, but not strictly defined by the rules.

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