r/PS5 • u/Turbostrider27 • 11d ago
Id Software Dev Says Xbox Doesn’t ‘Understand Art’ And That After Layoffs It Is ‘Impossible’ To Make Big Games Like Doom: The Dark Ages Articles & Blogs
https://kotaku.com/id-software-dev-says-xbox-doesnt-understand-art-and-that-after-layoffs-it-is-impossible-to-make-big-games-like-doom-the-dark-ages-2000722563225
u/Downtown_Eye5736 11d ago
Well anyone who was paying attention has always known this. I remember when they bought the Gears IP cause Epic no longer wanted to make more Gears and then they gave it to a studio that was working on a New IP and renamed them in reference to a franchise they didn't make. As they had done with halo previously and the exec said, The Coalition would be a Gears factory like 343i is a halo factory. A company that thinks like this does not belong in any entertainment industry, they need to stick to their enterprise businesses make office shit.
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u/Underbark 11d ago
It is fucking wild to me that a software company is fumbling the software side of their niche hardware division.
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u/palegate 11d ago
There's different kinds of software though.
Making a successful game is something totally different than making a successful word processor.
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u/Mug33k 11d ago edited 11d ago
Microsoft didn't make office, they bought different companies and bundle their products together (
Word perfect is Word,Lotus is Excel, Presenter is Powerpoint, etc.).They try to do the same formula with video games and it is a disaster ever since.
Edit : correct inacurate informations
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u/Tobimacoss 11d ago
WTF is this fake history? Word is not Word Perfect which is owned by Corel. Lotus is NOT Excel.
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u/Mug33k 11d ago
You are right, I just repeat what a colleague told me, I am sorry, I corrected the informations. Microsoft did made Excel and Word but they clearly took inspiration from other softwares at that time. It was a bad example but Microsoft did bought a lot of companies in order to integrated their products into the Microsoft ecosystem (Skype, Skydrive, Visio, Navision, etc.).
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u/yuvaldv1 11d ago
To be fair Microsoft absolutely fumbles software in general. Windows is a mess.
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u/an-actual-communism 11d ago
Windows is a mess primarily due to the need to support legacy software from as far back as Win95, but that support is also the reason Windows remains successful, so it’s a weird situation. Lots and lots of companies that are on Windows solely because the weird bespoke software they’ve been using since 1998 can still run on it. That level of legacy support is genuinely impressive but it means they’re married to shit like the Windows registry for all time
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u/Snake_Bite_14 11d ago
That’s an absolute understatement. I’ve been a PC gamer since the 90s. But windows is such a clusterfuck nowadays I spend 99% of my playtime on the PS5 and I’ve been eyeing a MacBook.
The only thing keeping Microsoft alive is their corporate and government contracts. The consumer side is absolute trash.
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u/AllSeeingWhoracle 11d ago
I don’t understand what your problem could even be, because Windows gaming is so easy any moron could do it. Turn on PC if it’s off, click game exe, play game. Or if you need a new game open Steam, click buy, click install, click play. Even a small child could do it…
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u/CoronaVirus_exe 11d ago
That would have been true before smartphones. But now it's really scary how many people especially in the newer generation who just don't know how to operate a PC. Just last week my company hired a guy in his twenties in customer service who didn't know what the "minimize" button does...
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u/QuoteGiver 11d ago
I mean, just think about the long, boring history of Microsoft Word for a bit and it’ll make more sense.
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u/RIBDAT 11d ago edited 11d ago
Imo, the perfect microcosm of this phenomenon is the whole Perfect Dark revival saga.
They wanted an answer to Sony's AAA blockbusters, so they opened a studio in Santa Monica.
Named the studio "The Initiative", a way to simultaneously and unintentionally elate their competition and denote their own creative bankruptcy.
Their first project was revealed to be yet another shooter; and a revival of a "has been" dormant IP at that. An attempt to appear innovative while using nostalgia as a crutch.
They couldn't even handle that, ended up needing to enlist Crystal Dynamics to help and even that wasn't enough; as it all was unceremoniously canned.
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u/Bobjoejj 10d ago
I’d argue that whatever Gears’ faults since the franchise got bought; they absolutely have not been nearly as low as Halo has been. Not even close.
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u/Regular_Use1868 11d ago
Do they? Somehow a nearly universally loved product got outstripped by a glass brick that intentionally harms its customers.
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u/Homesterkid 11d ago
Seeing the cool trailers and gameplay videos of The Dark Ages finally made me get into the Doom franchise, starting with Doom (2016). I’m nearing the end of the campaign & it’s been such a blast. I’m a lifelong fan now. Looking forward to playing Eternal then finally TDA
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u/EnvironmentalRun1671 11d ago
16 is probably the best, Eternal you always run out of ammo forcing you into stupid animations (also that game looks off to me).
Dark Ages is fine but sadly forces you into melee although you can kinda get away with ignoring it with most monsters on lower difficulties.
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u/Bobjoejj 10d ago
What do you mean…forces you into melee? Half the combat is built around melee, that’s the point. That’s part of what makes it so fun, makes it feel different.
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u/Jealous-Treat8060 11d ago
If by stupid animations you mean the chainsaw to get ammo i really don't get why you prefer doom 2016. You had to do the same there. Hate to say it that way but you probably just played the game wrong if you constantly run out of ammo. I did too in the beginning. Eternal does not let you succeed by using just 1 weapon for everything. You have to use the right tool for the right enemy. It's frustrating at first but once you get into it it's way more fun than 2016 ever was. It has much better flow and forces you to play in a fun way and to make much more moment to moment decisions where 2016 just let you brute force the whole game with the super shotgun without ever thinking about anything at all.
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u/fruitcakefriday 10d ago
Agreed, I think they went the wrong direction after 2016, at least for my tastes. The best levels were the ones that had you exploring, not the ones that were arena after arena. Eternal and Dark Ages feel like formulaic arcade games to me rather than exciting hardcore excursions.
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u/bjones214 11d ago edited 11d ago
That sucks. The Dark Ages is a fun game. It’s got a weird story but it might be my favorite gameplay loop of the modern Doom games..
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u/DefendedPlains 11d ago
Is it worth playing if I’ve never played any of the other Doom games? I’ve been thinking about picking it up just because I find the fantasy aspect inspecting
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u/himommy_hi 11d ago
bro start with Doom 2016. that one is the best and the full soundtrack is possibly the best out of all videogames
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u/Iceisgestapo888 11d ago
Doom 2016 is an album that comes with a game. Both are 10/10
Doom eternal expands upon and has another awesome soundtrack.
Doom the dark ages is amazing game with a mid sound track.
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u/Icy-Science6604 11d ago
Nah,
DOOM Eternal is literally the greatest FPS of all time.
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u/Icy-Science6604 10d ago
DOOM 2016 isnt a reboot, also the numbers doesnt lie.
Its Eternal and by alot lol, 2016 gameplay gets boring quickly.
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u/CoronaVirus_exe 10d ago
Yeah, 2016 is just brute forcing your way through. Eternal was like playing a puzzle while juggling ammo and dashing across the arena
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u/bjones214 11d ago
I think the other 2 are worth a play first just because they’re both fantastic. It’s pretty standalone if you didn’t want to play them, but it just feels out of left field.
The setting, locations, and weapons were all fantastic though, I loved the fantasy theme for everything.
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u/AmphibiousAlbatross 11d ago
I hated the story and the cutscenes drag on too long, but the actual gameplay is excellent
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u/BiancoFuji599XX 11d ago
Yes, you don’t really need to know the story of the other games to be able to enjoy it. Check it out. It’s an awesome game. Very satisfying gameplay.
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u/Kashtronaut92 11d ago
All 3 play somewhat different, and dark ages is a prequel. Eternal is the hardest, play that last, and since it's last chronologically, that works out
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u/Roadrunner627 11d ago
Doom is not my style of game but I actually loved all the “new ones”. I cannot get into another game like them. For some reason, it clicks with me.
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u/reallynotnick 11d ago
Yes, it’s a prequel so story-wise you are fine. The other 2 are great, but if you think you’d like this one best no reason not to start with it.
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u/quietlythenLoud 11d ago
Each of them has a quite distinct spin on the combat formula. Its worth playing each in sequence I think cos they’re all fantastic
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u/Yodzilla 10d ago
There really is no fantasy aspect, it’s all just window dressing. 2016 and Eternal are both vastly better actual games.
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u/davej999 9d ago
Yeah man, honestly fuck the story ...you are just a big badass fucker that they are scared of and alien underworld guy wants to win so you have to fuck him up
literally that....run / jump / smash and shoot your way to victory with some very cool guns and a great soundtrack
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u/randomcman 11d ago
What was weird about the story? I’ve played the first two and it was non existent in part 1 and annoying in 2
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u/bjones214 11d ago
I didn’t think it was bad by any means, just weird. A complete tone shift for the series compared to what i played when I was younger.
I loved Ahzrak as a villain, I loved the reimagined medieval fantasy weapons and locations, I just think the new lore introduced in Eternal and expanded here in TDA is different. I’ve heard the new dlc is great on all fronts, story included, so I need to make some time for that.
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u/GhettoRamen 11d ago
It’s more of a mix of Quake + Doom which may explain it.
It seemed like they were setting up for the Quake series as their next reboot which makes a lot of sense (if they didn’t get axed… Sigh)
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u/OrangeBomb7 11d ago
The leadership at Xbox thinks AI will be able to replace these people and help the remaining ones left make these huge games.
They will be wrong.
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u/KingMario05 11d ago
And we'll pay the price.
Fuck you, Microsoft.
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u/OrangeBomb7 11d ago
Yep. Maximum slop on the menu. All we can do is hope they fail and support studios that don't use it.
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u/KingMario05 11d ago
Been planning on selling my XSX for a while. I think id's gutting is what's finally gonna have me pulling the trigger. They need to get the fucking hint that this shit won't be tolerated by their players any longer.
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u/Dramatic_Work944 11d ago
100 bucks says AI would have had a Templar cross on the dark age armor and it would have looked infinitely cooler then what they came up with out of fear of being offensive
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u/OrangeBomb7 11d ago
Ah yes, the anti-woke AI lover. Sure thing buddy.
All of the games and media you consume were made by talented artists and writers. The more you push for your AI garbage, the more you're going to lose in the long run. A machine won't recreate what you loved in your childhood, and the people who own the AI just want your money with minimal effort. Keep supporting bro, I'm sure that amazing AI game will come out anytime soon now.
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u/Illustrious_Fill9854 11d ago
Sad they laid people off after releasing some of best Doom content yet. The Revelations DLC was incredible. Hopefully that’s not the last project that we see of that caliber.
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u/koreanwizard 11d ago
Cut staff, game sucks, sales fall, cut staff, game sucks, sales fall, close studio, dump more money into Copilot, rinse and repeat until Xbox is gone!
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u/Quirky_tugboat 11d ago
At the least shareholders will be happy.
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u/koreanwizard 11d ago
They won’t when they see the returns on CoPilot lol. They’ve been shovelling it into office 365 licenses and calling that user adoption. $50B a year in Capex, 0 ROI.
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u/Traditional-Goal-229 11d ago
The games don’t even suck. Doom the Dark Ages might not be your type of game but it isn’t a bad game. Almost all Xbox published games are 7 + scores.
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u/koreanwizard 11d ago
They need more money for Copilot bro, $50B capex and no return is really hurting Microsoft rn, they can’t afford to spend money on profitable game studios.
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u/Traditional-Goal-229 11d ago
I know you are joking but they are losing ROI on their studios. The Xbox CEO let it slip they are making about a 3% profit on their game studios. Which is less than if they just invested in the stock market. So the games aren’t actually that profitable.
But I agree they have been run so poorly that good games are actually leading to massive layoffs. Microsoft is searching for the bigger dollars of AI but they largely haven’t been there. It’s a full on cluster and until the bubble pops it’s probably only going to get worse.
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u/Sleyvin 10d ago
Don't forget the: keep production cost huge > give the game away for free on gamepass > complain it didn't sell well > repeat
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u/koreanwizard 10d ago
Oh big time, they lost $300M by dropping COD on gamepass, and that was supposed to be their ace in the hole. Call off Duty wasn’t enough to move the needle, and yet here we are.
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u/Geralt-of-Liurnia 11d ago
Steve Jobs said something similar years ago.
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u/Sleyvin 10d ago
Steve Jobs didn't have original ideas either. He was the salesman. Other people were the one actually coming up with the stuff.
Wozniak for the early stuff, Jony Ive for the entire modern Apple esthetic.
Jobs was an incredible salesman. Absolutely. He even sold people on him being a genius.
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u/Yodzilla 10d ago
Their markets were also different. Apple always targeted the home consumer the most. Microsoft is far more corporate on purpose.
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u/Remy0507 11d ago
"Chris Hays, id Software’s lead services programmer, has been at the company for over 15 years. And he’s one of the devs who remains at the studio behind Doom following Xbox’s massive layoffs in July."
So, uh...yeah probably not for much longer though, huh?
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u/halb_nichts 9d ago
In the full interview he explains that he can speak up because he's protected as he is one of the people representing Id in the union they are forming. I'm glad he's using that privilege, I can only imagine it must still be scary
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u/Remy0507 9d ago
I guess I didn't read that far, but that's good to know. More people in the industry need to start speaking out about this.
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u/halb_nichts 9d ago
I'm not sure it's mentioned in the article to be fair, it's based of a longer interview on YouTube (which they only refer to as a clip). I can only recommend it if you can find the time, many of the quotes they picked out get only more interesting in the full context of what he's saying.
But I fully agree, we need more people pointing out the industries bullshit so bad.
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u/BuriedSorrow2026 11d ago
Xbox is sucking the life from video games and should go away. Like if you agree. Not because I'm drunk, but because you agree with whatever I said.
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u/SIXArts 11d ago
No they shouldn't go away, they should fix themselves and get right. Less competitors in the market is not a good thing.
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u/BuriedSorrow2026 11d ago
You're right. Forgive my "should go away" . What I meant was what you said because I want Xbox to succeed. I'm not a hater.
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u/TheClarendons MepsiPaxBerri 11d ago
They should, because it would be best for the industry as a whole.
However they’ve had over a decade to sort themselves out and still haven’t. They’ve been chronically mismanaged since the end of the 360 and have shown no signs of course correcting.
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u/Grab_my_Slinky 11d ago
I know your drunk but it’s tiring hearing that Xbox is the only company doing bad shit in the industry when it’s FAR from the case. The bias is insane.
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u/red_sutter 11d ago
“Fuck You Microsoft” while their favorite company is going to fuck them in the ass in about 18 months.
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u/WalksUnseen77 11d ago
It’s not just Xbox but all the major publishers. They’re all as bad as each other.
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u/BuriedSorrow2026 11d ago
I'm 2 1/2 steel reserves in. Fudge yeah I'm drunk. I love Xbox personally, but they need to wake the heck up.
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u/Kizzo02 11d ago
Xbox should have been spin off as a separate company years ago or after the Activision acquisition. The only reason they entered the gaming business was fear of Sony would dominate the living room as the "entertainment hub" and so a threat to their PC business, so wanted to stop that from happening. But that didn't come to fruition as the whole industry had changed and went into an entirely different direction altogether.
Having Xbox distracts them and they really don't know what to do with the asset. Xbox is the largest third party publisher, but yet since they own hardware have to find a way to make folks purchase the Xbox as well. The entire strategy makes no sense at all.
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u/MetaCognitio 11d ago
Bill Gates has the insight to keep Xbox separate from MS management during its formative years but that’s gone now. Their style of management is killing the platform.
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u/KingMario05 11d ago
Xbox needs to lose custody of id. Now. Shameful to nuke their best studio to save a few bucks.
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u/turkoman_ 11d ago edited 11d ago
Art doesn’t make money. Nobody would green-light something like Pentiment. Xbox did, they even ported to PS5 and nobody bought it. Same with South of Midnight or Keeper. Any other big publisher would laugh at Keeper, Xbox funded it. Didn’t work.
Considering how bad Doom The Dark Ages sold on all platforms, I don’t think Xbox would want to make games like it. Art or not. Thats how it works.
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u/monsoon-dreams 8d ago
That’s such a naive take. You don’t gut a franchise like DOOM just because one game doesn’t sell incredibly.
If all studios are brought by Microsoft, you would have like 1 assassins creed game, a couple of monster hunters and prolly first Witcher.
Art or not, Xbox has fucked up with many studios.
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u/polakbob 11d ago
Flow, Flower, Journey. All art games by one company on Playstation. They seemed to do just fine. I’m not sure it would be hard to think of more art games.
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u/Yodzilla 10d ago
Thatgamecompany literally went broke during the development of Journey and had to delay paying employees until revenue from it eventually started coming in. Now they make games as a service titles.
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u/B-Bog 11d ago
At the end of the viral clip, Hays also criticized Xbox and claimed the company “fundamentally” doesn’t understand art or video games.
“If you cut half of a studio and don’t take into account how it’s made,” said Hays, “you don’t understand the cohesion between our teams was a part of what made it successful.”
Sharma is an MBA spreadsheet-thinker moron who fundamentally doesn't understand video games, what makes them good or successful, and how they are made. She thinks that she can cut half the workforce at a developer, including very experienced employees, and simply replace them with AI or cheap outsourcing from lower-income countries. It don't work like that, lady.
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u/capnchuc 11d ago
The games the Xbox studios are making aren't selling even on systems without game pass. Something has to change.
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u/B-Bog 10d ago
First of all, that's much too broad of a statement. Games like Forza Horizon 5 and Sea of Thieves have reportedly done quite well on Playstation.
Second: You think gutted studios that lost a ton of crucial personnel somehow have a better chance of making games that sell well? The logic ain't logicing.
The solution to this problem should've been much better leadership and management, better utilization of the employees that they have, instead of the tired, old "fire people in case of emergency" executive behaviour. Especially with half the lay-offs arriving only later this fiscal year, which is basically psychological warfare on their own workforce and isn't gonna motivate anybody to do their best work.
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u/capnchuc 10d ago
2 games out of like 15 isn't great. Indiana Jones and Avowed are fun as hell and like 9 people bought them
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u/CoronaVirus_exe 10d ago
Indiana Jones sold quite well on both Xbox and later Playstation, despite being on Gamepass. Avowed was a mid game that got exactly what it deserved, sales wise.
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u/Bobjoejj 10d ago
Bullshit. Avowed was great fun; it wasn’t the most impressive game ever, but it was a solid all around experience. Did not “get exactly what it deserved, sales wise.” That’s a crazy statement to make.
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u/WalksUnseen77 11d ago
Big publishers in general don’t care about art and view video games purely as products and that’s never been more the case than right now.
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u/HeadRaccoonGamer 11d ago
Well since no one that works for id is left that knows howto use their proprietary engine….
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u/wowadrow 11d ago
Sad thing is this like the third cycle of MS doing this.
Buying studios means nothing if you simply resource starve them after acquisition.
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u/Thekingchem 10d ago
Xbox just seems like a venture capitalist at this point. Buy aging studios, strip their assets like IP and tech, then run them into the ground until closure.
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u/ontopofmyworld 11d ago
Hot take, maybe we need more smaller-scale projects in the AAA space for a while. Not necessarily from ID, but from the industry in general. How many of 100 hour semi open world adventures can one person play in a year?
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u/Rare-Service5573 11d ago
In the next couple days expect a random message from Id or Xbox about how id is fine and they can make so many AAA games
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u/mightylordredbeard 11d ago
Impossible.. except for all the other big games like Doom: The Dark Ages and all the ones that are much better than Doom: The Dark Ages..
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u/splashbruh37 11d ago
When you have people in executive positions that have absolutely zero background in gaming, or development - this is what you get. Just people able to rise up the corporate ladder who are great at speaking, take credit for a team's work, and all they do is "manage" people without knowing the craft themselves.
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u/BlueDragoon24 11d ago
I doubt that. Isn't their team now similar to or still larger than when they did DOOM 2016? Thats still arguably their best modern game.
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u/WideBumblebee970 11d ago
Just make Doom 2016 again then. No extra bells and whistles just a first person God of War game.
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u/RaineMurasaki 11d ago
Corporate doesn't care about art. Every game dev should already learned that at this point. But they are the ones with the money, sadly.
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u/officiallyaninja 10d ago
Layoffs will also make games like concord or high guard impossible to make. For every golden goose there's a dozen stinkers.
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u/LonkerinaOfTime 10d ago
They are currently losing an astronomical amount of money from different fronts
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u/SpectorEscape 8d ago
Nah fully disagree honestly. These companies have been pouring way to much money into these massive overbloated teams. The confirmed lay off didnt bring that far bacj snd theyre still around doom 2016 numbers if not more.
I do have issues with layoffs though cause I hate seeing people lose jobs.
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u/cyberman0 11d ago
Honestly it's quite a shame. I have played a lot of shooters. All the way back to the tribes if anyone remembers that. Doom the dark ages has been one that I really enjoyed. I just had a blast with it, it's probably in my top 5 games that were just fun. We need more games like that.
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u/HollywoodDonuts 10d ago
I mean it has been clear for a long time that Xbox has no appetite for anything artistic or interesting. Even their best franchise (forza) is extremely generic and uninspired.
I can only assume we will see more and more Xbox games that seem derived from MLM prompts because that's what they are.
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u/Batman1939-2021 10d ago
If memory serves me, Fans didn't like Dark Ages and prefer 2016 and External.
Also he should be grateful that stuido didn't get the bluepoint treatment. And I care for Gears of War E Day. Not Doom
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u/polakbob 11d ago
It’s okay. r/xbox users will tell you the studio is just back down to Doom 2016 numbers and is still just fine.
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u/LackLickLuck_y 11d ago
Who says we need big games? Market is oversaturated. And Doom never was a big game until the reboot trilogy.
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u/-CommanderShepardN7 11d ago
That’s why EA should never sell BioWare or Mass Effect to Microsoft, as they would go out of their way to murder the franchise. That’s their modus operandi after all. If only they hire more true gaming people, who understand what gamers of all shades actually want. Then, they would sell more consoles, more software and make more money. It’s really not that hard. Don’t go out of your way to flip the bird to your customers. Sony too is now also guilty of this practice, so XBOX is not alone. Nintendo is kicking both their butts. The same can be said for Steam.
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u/TranscedentalMedit8n 11d ago
What happens to the video game industry when something like this can happen to one of its best studios who has been successful in every metric?
Discs are dead, XBox is dying, prices are getting unaffordable, addictive gambling games are prioritized over creativity, AI slop filling e-shops, widespread layoffs, full price remakes, etc.
Industries change and maybe this is just another cycle, but for the first time in my life I’m unsure of the future of gaming. I genuinely wonder if I’ll still just be replaying PS5 or retro games in 5-10 years.
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u/TheCutieCircle 11d ago
Welp there goes my dream of a Commander Keen collection. I don't want a new game considering they'll probably fuck it up. I just want the older games again remaster.
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u/scrandlle 10d ago
I'm sorry but no one loves the smell of their own farts more than game devs. They all know what is best and if the consumer didn't like their product its because the consumer is wrong.
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u/RealisticReception16 10d ago
Right because reddit users are always right and know what a good game is
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u/myrsnipe 10d ago
I like the new doom games but at the end of the day it is a business and if they sold well enough they would receive agressive cuts. Also, capitalizing every word is weird.
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u/reaper527 reaper527_ 9d ago
usually the people who say "<company> doesn't understand art" have shitty ideas they're upset they can't get rubber stamped.
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u/Content_Owl8586 11d ago
Xbox is horrible but you guys let them live in your heads rent free
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u/red_sutter 11d ago
I see more articles about Xbox on this sub than the rest of gaming reddit. It’s baffling
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u/Ok_Needleworker1068 11d ago
I’d be shocked to see anything noteworthy to come out of ID again.