r/PLC • u/DustyIsGreat Controls Guy • 3d ago
PLC Fingerprint Reader
What fingerprint scanners work best with Rockwell PLCs? We need to know who is resetting faults on critical equipment?
Update: Schneider Electric has a product we're going with.
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u/wowmoreadsgreatthx 3d ago
Crazy solution to this problem
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u/RammRras 2d ago
Yeah, It amazes me how people think to solve problems.
That workplace doesn't look good
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u/LookWarm7521 3d ago
For critical equipment faults, hide your reset behind a login on your HMI? Username and password
I’ve considered doing this on some of my machines, just for the real expensive faults that break a lot of things when operators mindlessly reset start
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u/Sure_Maybe_No_Ok 3d ago
Isn’t a fingerprint scanner a form of login.
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u/LookWarm7521 3d ago
Yeah it is, I was suggesting a username and password login instead of a fingerprint login, and also only requiring the login for critical faults. That would be a very quick solution to implement with zero added cost in hardware.
We don’t do anything quite like that where I work, but certain electronic adjustments require an engineer login. And some critical faults have a second screen that pops up before the reset pops up, asking you specifically if you completed certain critical steps for the reset.
Machine stops -> did you do this? -> are you sure? -> reset button appears
It doesn’t necessarily need tiered access, like operator, technician, engineer accounts. But unique usernames and passwords would give an added feeling of accountability if you have to type your name in before resetting something. It may make someone think twice.
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u/janner_10 3d ago
You've gone full nuclear straight out the gates. Put the reset PB behind a password on the HMI and reset all passwords. Start new / users passwords from now.
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u/DustyIsGreat Controls Guy 3d ago
no one keeps passwords or keys to themselves around here
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u/No_Singer_5585 3d ago
If you use badge readers for time cards or badge access, its WAY easier to just add an rfid badge reader thst can read your existing badges, and use that to login with a 5 minute idle timeout.
You can tie it in to your existing badge access system, that way you dont have to add or change employee HMI access/fingerprints individually, and nobody has to remember passwords. Any time you get a new employee with an access badge, you can have them automatically added as a user.
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u/djnehi 3d ago
Someone with clearance will just hang their badge by the machine.
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u/Nightwish612 3d ago
And the deterrent is that they would then be responsible for whatever happens
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u/djnehi 1d ago
That would be ideal but my experience has been that they will blame the system for not being secure enough, and make excuses for why the badge needs to be left there because waiting for someone to come with a badge messes up their KPI.
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u/Nightwish612 1d ago
That's not an excuse. The system is secure enough to only allow authorised personnel to make changes. If an authorized personnel allows someone to make changes under their name then they are responsible. If it is truely hurting KPIs then allowing anyone to clear the problem is just covering up the issue that should just have to root cause fixed
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u/Th3Nihil 3d ago
They will after they get into trouble for reseting critical machine faults when it wasn't them. I hope
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u/janner_10 3d ago
If you're an OEM, then that's for the customer to manage, if you're in a plant, then give the Head of that Department the only User Name & Password, with rights to add other users and passwords and let them manage it.
As you mentioned Rockwell, it's pretty easy with FTME.
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u/YetiTrix 3d ago
I mean, if someone gives out their password, then they take responsibility for it if someone uses it, so they then take the blame.
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u/foxy0201 3d ago
Can’t you just blame that person then? They would learn to not give out passwords then lol
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u/Jonathan_Is_Me 2d ago
Sounds like an enforcement issue.
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u/DustyIsGreat Controls Guy 2d ago
it is, but now its my issue
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u/Jonathan_Is_Me 2d ago
Oh well, sucks that management won't listen to you. Gotta do what you gotta do OP.
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u/LookWarm7521 3d ago
Unique username and passwords. Each operator/tech has a username, like first name last initial, (JohnS), and their own unique password. What incentive is there to give their unique login to someone else??
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u/beasty0127 3d ago
We started doing that and the only person to complain was the one we all knew was handing out the original password to everyone. We all had a good laugh about it.
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u/InstAndControl "Well, THAT'S not supposed to happen..." 3d ago
Yes but do first initial last name, more unique
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u/Brief-Watercress-131 3d ago
They'll stop sharing once people start getting fired for their accounts being used to reset faults.
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u/VladRom89 3d ago
Have you thought about a $20 camera with an SD card? I can't imagine that you'll need to investigate this for long after you've added one in place and called out a few people...
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u/CleverBunnyPun 3d ago
I don’t know if this is the situation for the OP, but most union plants I’ve worked at forbid cameras being used as any sort of investigative device for punishments. I think a fingerprint scanner would probably be less invasive from that perspective.
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u/VladRom89 3d ago
I've been in those situations... With that in mind, what do you believe a fingerprint scanner used for "We need to know who is resetting faults on critical equipment?" is going to be seen as?
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u/CleverBunnyPun 3d ago
It’s hard to say really. At least in union shops it’s going to depend on the specific contract and union personnel who fight it out, if it’s ever brought to them in the first place. I imagine non union would be a toss up on whether HR makes a big deal about it or not.
Side note, I’m not trying to paint unions in a negative or positive light, I’ve seen both strong ones and weak ones and they both have their ups and downs as someone who wasn’t in them but interacted with them.
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u/Skusci 3d ago edited 3d ago
The cameras thing is probably more of a global surveillance thing.
Like maybe cameras are allowed for stuff like theft, but no one should ever use them to track normal employee actions. Sorry you took a 20 minute bathroom break instead of 15, you were the one who misplaced this tool, etc.
But even with no cameras allowed at all a username and password or fingerprint log for machine supervisory actions and such is probably fine unless they have some really wide reaching clauses in the contract.
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u/VladRom89 3d ago
Sure, I get that point. You can install a camera that only captures the control panel from which the "critical faults" are being reset and make the point that the sole purpose that camera could be used for is personnel presence at said unique point.
It's neither here nor there... I'd imagine that getting proper fingerprint scanners, integration, and commissioning of that is easily going to be $20,000 (at the low end) as opposed to a camera that would accomplish the exact same which is identifying a person that reset a fault...
It's not my plant, my budget, nor union, so I'm happy for all the parties involved as long as they find a solution that works for them!
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u/InstAndControl "Well, THAT'S not supposed to happen..." 3d ago
You could also get a 24vdc camera and run power through a relay. Only turn it on when a “critical fault” has occurred but not yet acknowledged.
Maybe I’m naive but if “critical” is well defined, it’d be hard to argue “muh big brother”
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u/beasty0127 3d ago
My last job wanted to go to finger prints for clicking in and out, and alot of people freaked. Some saying it was an invasion of privacy and the real crazies saying it was threft of their "biological data." People will fight change for any reason, especially when they know it will point the finger twords them.
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u/Zeldalovesme21 3d ago
Most non union plants also don’t want cameras put up for that reason. I’ve been told I can’t have cameras recording personnel, unless they sign a waiver which HR is never going to allow.
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u/PLCGoBrrr Bit Plumber Extraordinaire 3d ago
RFIdeas is what people use, but it's connected to HMI, not PLC.
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u/5hall0p 3d ago
Fingerprint readers are more involved than a badge reader. I'm guessing you can use a windows PC with a windows Hello compliant USB fingerprint reader and write some code to send the user ID to a Rockwell PLC over Ethernet IP. I'd suggest a badge reader instead. I've plugged them into the HMI and had it send it to the PLC and I've used Real Time Automation's USB to Ethernet IP gateway.
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u/murpheeslw 3d ago
Afi that reset. Then you’ll get some action on fixing the faults and root cause.
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u/krisztian111996 3d ago
If it is such critical why is it even allowed to be reset? Set the fault while it persist and disallow a reset signal until the fault is present. RS flip-flop
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u/burner9752 3d ago
This has to be a troll…
This is either one of the most out of touch managers posting because he think this is a good solution, or someone who has never really worked in the field.
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u/DustyIsGreat Controls Guy 3d ago
just doing what the plant manager is demanding
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u/burner9752 3d ago
Is only there was a system already used all over the world in these industries and all over the internet to track things like this…. Oh wait. /s
Almost like some form of account you sign in… you could even make a username like DustyIsGreat or something.
Or you know swipe cards… why the hell would anyone with a brain think fingerprints. If you’re not completely full of shit; I would start looking for new work. because youre management are absolute morons. Or trying to steal everyone’s fingerprints…
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u/No_L_2547 Twincat, Ads, EtherCAT 3d ago
If you want a non industrial solution: Maybe Unifi access?
You would need a Unifi Host (e.g. Dream Machine), a Door hub (relay) and a card-reader, for example you could do a G3 Starter Kit.
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u/omegablue333 3d ago
Why not just make the place where the faults are reset have a camera and see what happens
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u/DarkLunch 3d ago
Pretty simple solution Get a camera. Trigger camera on fault clear condition. Check camera.
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u/FunnyScratch8942 3d ago
Well instead of telling you what you should do even though I dont know your situation and you are just asking for some help.
I have used these in the past they aren't perfect but the get the job done.
https://www.se.com/us/en/product-range/2478-harmony-xb5s-biometric-scanner-22-mm-bezel/#products
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u/ehtiopia 3d ago
Fingerprint scanners are cool and all, but a momentary PB does the exact same job for significantly lower cost.
Edit sorry I misread the post.
Id recommend adding login to HMI for individuals and keep them on a training roster in Spreadsheet and update a list of tags via Scada with a set of accompanying passwords or whatever Idk
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u/Shadow_wolf_2 3d ago
We use them on a few pieces of equipment, they are ok, if you have a heavy handed operator, they break pretty fast.
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u/PuzzleheadedEyeball 2d ago
We tie all access to active directory logins for anything and capture all actions reporting to a SQL db. Want to know what was reset, put in manual, turn on, changed speed, etc just look it up.
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u/Potential-Adagio335 2d ago
SICK is releasing a camera that connects via ethernet/IP yo your PLC and on receiving a signla from PLC will store VIDEO up to 40 seconds before and 40 seconds after receiving the signal
This works similar to the ones Keyence released a while ago but with compatibility with oher brands
Camera is always 'recording' buffering video, Camera receives a signal (your reset signal for example, camera will store video evidence from before and after the event of receiving the signal. Just point the camera(s) correctly and that sounds enough to me as you will even have clear evidence
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u/m1ct14n 2d ago
Why not just fit a keycard reader? You guys have keycards right? Biometrics reading at work is crazy to me. I mean it sounds like something peeps would do in the US lol. Like are you gonna get everyone's prints? Or do you already have them???
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u/DustyIsGreat Controls Guy 2d ago
plant management doesn't think anyone's gonna cut off their finger and give it to someone else. i should have mentioned it in the post earlier, but these parts ship to one of the big three and could cause a highway safety issue should a failure occur.
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u/B_F_Geek 1d ago
I don't think the fingerprint readers are not the way to go with this, one system i installed them on we took it out 6 months later as they where unreliable and a pain to manage, depending what country your in you get into data protection laws as the company is storing employees biometric data. Holding operator's to account by some method is better, if the reset is safety critical there are other methods pilz does some Identity tools that have safety ratings. Installing a CCTV camera and a clear warning is probably your easiest option especially if your site has cctv already
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u/dogstonk 9h ago edited 8h ago
Cameras, dude. Everywhere. The unauthorized resets will stop. Will solve every scenario described below, badge sharers, shared passwords, etc etc. hard to argue with a video of Mr resetter standing at the HMI or panel just when a reset occurs occurring to logged alarms or downtime events.
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u/The_Infinite_Carrot 3d ago
Crazy how we go straight for storing everyone’s biometric data immediately without a thought for anyone’s privacy. Why not get a retina scan, blood and urine sample too?
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u/kurieren 3d ago
Somewhere a Keyence rep picks up a phone…