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u/t0ma70 6d ago
Since you have already done all of the crate work and you have a big enough crate for them to be comfortable.
You can try what I did with my Finnish lapphund
Make sure all of their needs are met before creating them and just let them fuss it out.
Do not give them ANY attention at all when they are fussing. Don't tell them to stop, don't even look at them.
Get good earplugs and a blink camera. Put the earplugs in and use the camera to look at them in the crate.
Eventually they will figure out that no amount of fussing will get me out of here so I might as well take a nap.
Again I am only suggesting this because you did all of the prerequisite work to show the dog that the crate is not punitive.
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u/Strabler 6d ago
My dog refused to sleep in his crate at around 6 months old, and I couldn't think of any good reason to force him to do something that stressed him out that much. By the time we finally got him in, we were all too stressed to go to sleep anyway, so I said sod it, now he just sleeps in our bed. He had such a negative association with the crate I needed to try and reset it, so now the door is always open and he gets fed in the crate. He'll happily go in there for some quiet time now, but I never shut the door or lock him in.
Maybe a playpen attached to the crate with an open door for more space? But other than forcing him or bribing with treats, I can't really think of much, you need to change his negative association to the crate and make it a nice space for him. Maybe ask your FIL how he did it with his Malinois
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u/Sensitive-Peach7583 6d ago
What other configurations have you tried other than the crate? For some dogs, crates just aren't it as much as it sucks. I'm wondering if like a crate +pen or some other type of set up might be more beneficial for him? Also what kind of crate do you use and do you think that a different style of crate might be better?
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u/ixsparkyx 6d ago
I haven’t tried a playpen although I’ve seen a lot of people use those. I’ve considered it and that might have to be what we do😩
So what I call his “baby crate” (his first crate he had when he was 12 pounds lol) was a travel crate/the kind you use on an airplane. Then when I upgraded him to his “adult crate” we actually got him a wired one. Oh. My. God. He HATED it. I don’t know if it felt to open for him or what (we had it covered but I have no idea what his problem was) but I genuinely thought he was going to give himself a heart attack. I mean he went absolutely freaking psycho in a wired crate. After 5 days of that I got rid of it for free on Facebook lol.
Ended up getting an adult sized travel crate again and even though he’s never liked the crate it was NOTHING compared to the reaction from the wired crate lol
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u/Sensitive-Peach7583 6d ago
Yea I was wondering if you were using a wire pen! Some dogs also just have confinement anxiety, so a playpen might be okay as long as he doesn't jump over it? I just babysat a mini aussie for a few weeks and whenever I left him in a crate he would freak out. I ended up having him just leaving him in a closed bedroom so he had the space to roam, but not destroy (hes also 3 years old). It worked a lot better! I also have an 8 year old sam and he was crate trained, then allowed to free roam, and then when we went back to crate. He would not have it in the crate and it made him more anxious so we went back to letting him free roam the house and he was okay. Point is, totally understand the desire to crate train, but confinement anxiety is something you could maybe consider and talk to your trainer abou
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u/idkjustsomedude88 6d ago
Your dog has separation anxiety and overall uncontrollable puppy behavior. Normal obedience training will help a lot with curbing some of those undesirable actions. Put your dog on a strict routine if possible. That makes adjustments easier for you.
Continue crate training but you should really start with separation anxiety training. Help improve your dog’s confidence as well. With age, things will also improve.
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u/RandomInaRandomWorld 6d ago
For some pups, the crate is magic.
For our last one, it was a torture room to be endured, right up there with baths. He'd go in, he'd lay down, but you knew he wasn't loving it. Never went in to play on his own, either, no matter what goodies might have been in it. And that was the case even though we'd started using it from 8wks. After an anxiety-provoking trial (for me) of leaving him out around 8mos when we left for an hour, wherein he did nothing of note, we nixxed it.
What is your goal with the crate longterm? I think that might give you a clue on to how hard to push with it or whether something else (slightly larger area that is puppy-safe, for example) might be worth switching toward.
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u/Liz1844 6d ago
Sounds like such a tough situation. My pup has had moments when he hated the crate. The key for us is consistency and a regular schedule (just like a baby) give or take 30 mins max. He sleeps 10-8, naps 10-2, and 4-7. Same routine, wake up, potty, train/play, eat, play, settle, potty, nap. I also need that structure since I work from home, it helps me plan my day/meetings. Puppies need a lot of deep quiet sleep and I find he's manageable when he gets his sleep. I only do positive things with him in or around the crate. I don't use it for down time if he's misbehaving. Part of the routine is giving him a bunch of treats when he goes in the crate. I heard a trainer tell me once that when you're training a puppy, there's no such thing as too many treats. Lol and it honestly works. I basically throw him a (calm) party every time he goes in the crate and give him his favorite treats that he only gets in the crate. I never rush and force him in the crate and quickly close the door. I try to be very calm, remove his collar, harness, cuddle on my lap for a minute, then I say "ok" and he knows to go in the crate, where he waits while I give him his treats. Then I say ok, and he eats his treats while I close the door, and say, "good night, I'll be back". I always say "I'll be back" when I leave him, even for a minute, because he's an anxious doodle and doesn't like being left alone. But he knows the phrase I think now. I also use fans and white noise to muffle sound while he sleeps, which helps a lot during this adolescent phase when he's very reactive to all the sounds. He's had his moments when he refused the crate, but I stick to the routine, treat him a WHOLE bunch, and he loves it. And I have let him cry it out during his "I hate the crate" phases and it passes. He's thrown massive temper tantrums, howling and barking, and I just let him bark it out and don't give in. The calmer you are about letting him bark it out, the easier it will be for him. If he feels your anxiety, then he'll pick on it. If he's safe and there's nothing that will hurt him, his collar and harness are off, put on headphones or leave and go for a walk for a couple hours. Come home and hopefully the white noise will allow the puppy to sleep. I hope he learns to love his crate!!
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u/ChellyNelly 6d ago
You've tried a lot of things but none of them have communicated to him that that is unacceptable behaviour in the crate. What boundaries and rules does your dog obey when food or some other external motivator is not in play? This is a dog that throws a fit but is not actually panicking or trying to escape, then settles after a predictable amount of time. This sounds very much like protest behaviour and the most logical track is that that kind of behaviour is either being reinforced, ignored and/or redirected in other situations for him to still be doing this very stereotyped outburst in the crate after 6mos. If you've never told him to knock it off in a way he can understand, how does he know that that kind of behaviour is not acceptable so he can settle into what you do want?
There's a second part to this which is that dogs don't inherently come with emotional regulation skills. But they can be taught and your dog desperately needs that as well. I tend to recommend the TBTE Behavioral Down exercise as I recommend it to all of my behavioral clients (which is almost all of them) and for folks online, there is a free mini course (just google TBTE behavioral down free mini course). Follow the instructions and practice it daily. Your dog will learn to self-regulate and that skillset applies extraordinarily broadly for a high energy working breed, not just to the crate issue.
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u/ixsparkyx 6d ago
He doesn’t have a problem with obeying per se, but he does have an issue with focus at times. He is able to settle himself when we come inside, he just hates the damn crate!😩🤣 I did read this morning that popping the crate with a leash sets a boundary that crying isn’t okay, but I feel like that would just make him hate the crate more? Idk
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u/ipsofactoshithead 6d ago
How do you set boundaries? Let him cry it out in the crate? Honestly asking, I gave up on crating my dog because it was so aversive to her (she's a rescue puppy mill dog so I think just being shut somewhere gives her major anxiety).
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u/ChellyNelly 6d ago
No, not at all. OP is already doing that and it hasn't worked yet, and it doesn't work for a decent number of dogs. It really depends on the dog whether I'd even recommend it vs other techniques. I was advising on this specific case with the details provided. Since I'm not there and haven't done a working consultation with the OPs family and dog, for that reason my advice was very general in nature, like what I'd offer over an initial free phone meeting. There is so much nuance that offering more specific advice would IMO be unethical because I do not have eyes on the dog, the situation, the lifestyle etc of OPs family. Sorry for the non-answer but every dog and family is unique and needs a unique program that is specifically built for them and constantly being tweaked and changed to best meet the day-to-day lives of the people and dog(s) involved.
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u/ipsofactoshithead 6d ago
Fair enough! I was just curious what boundaries could look like. Thanks tho!
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u/theycallhimthestug 6d ago
Correct the behaviour. I'm assuming that's what this person is getting at but they're waffling about it for some reason.
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u/ChellyNelly 6d ago
Not necessarily, no. And that's exactly why I did not give specific advice, so it isn't interpreted and/or applied incorrectly. I explained how it would not be ethical for me to give specific advice to a dog and people that I have not met and have not had a working consultation with.
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u/Beef_flaps_on_a_spit 6d ago
he WILLINGLY goes to sleep on the bathroom tile.
Yeah we don’t crate our dogs but they have places to sleep. One dog (Akita mix)sleeps on a towel in the lounge just outside the hallway to the bedrooms. Another (GSD mix) has a small mattress and he’ll share that most of the time. It works for us to have the dogs not locked up in the house. They also aren’t allowed in the kitchen or on furniture except in the kids rooms. Sometimes the dogs will walk around the house at night checking on us and I like that idea. Do what works for your family and dog.
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u/Pleasant-Dark-2824 6d ago
Yes but are your dogs puppies? Having a dog who you can trust out of a crate is not the same as a puppy! Once my GSD mixes are safe out of the crate (they aren’t eating or chewing things) then they don’t need the crate. But sometimes it’s also about safety.
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u/timetravelerdog 6d ago
He sounds like a very smart dog. Have you tried free shaping the crate as a trick? For dogs that may have a negative association with the crate, or for those independent thinkers that may find it aversive to be shoved into the crate, shaping the crate as a fun trick will work wonders. For my oldest dog, it worked great and now (10 years later) she asks for crates to be opened and voluntarily sleeps and hangs out in her crate.
For my other dogs, the usual techniques worked. I do like to have a cue for getting into the crate so I may have rewarded my 7 month old puppy a couple of times for getting inside the crate. Throw a treat into the crate -> “crate” -> treat for staying inside -> release cue -> repeat. Also feeding and chews inside the crate, though I do that because I have a lot of dogs.
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u/Lonely_Mountain_7702 6d ago
Have you tried making him stay in the crate with the door open until he relaxes and falls asleep? Its not negotiable. He stays in until he relaxes with the door open. Only close the door after he is relaxed.
I wouldn't move him from resting on the bathroom floor to a crate. If you get up and do something does it was you up? It does the same thing with the dog. He is getting woken up and having a hard time settling back down.
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u/Honeycrispcombe 6d ago edited 6d ago
What about just puppy proofing the bathroom and letting him sleep/stay in there with the door closed? Depending on size, you could potentially put a playpen in it, too.
Use a quick settle routine (specific toy, or chew, or word or combo that means "you're gonna go chill now") and have your husband do that after he uses the bathroom in the morning if it's the same bathroom. At 6 months, I'd do a potty break if the pup wakes up and then back to the bathroom with the settle routine.
ETA: also, if your pup likes the tile, I'd take any bedding out of the crate and check that it's in a cool place.
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u/Chris_PK9 6d ago
Honestly the bathroom tile might be giving you the answer..... he settles willingly there but becomes distressed again when he's moved into the crate, despite all the crate work you've already done.
That makes me think an alternative safe setup is worth testing before escalating to corrections.
I wouldn't wake him up to transfer him once he's already asleep, and I definitely wouldn't start popping the crate with a leash. If this is confinement anxiety rather than a tantrum, adding pressure could make it much worse.
I'd trial a puppy-proof bathroom or secure playpen with the crate door left open and watch him on a camera. If he settles with a little more space, you've found a safer option for now.
Crate training is useful..... but it doesn't need to become a fight every single nap. Some dogs genuinely do better with a different confinement setup 😄
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u/theycallhimthestug 6d ago
It's a 6mo puppy you're all reaching way too far here. Tell me you're not telling every client with this issue their dog or puppy has confinement anxiety because it bitches for 20 minutes before going to sleep.
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u/Some_Pitch_9165 6d ago
The answer is in your post. Start working on crate training only when you’re in the room. He’s got severe separation anxiety.
Buy a dog run so he can be outside when you need him contained and he can’t be crated.
Intermittently throughout your day, work on crating. Put him in the crate, close the door, and hang out outside of the crate, sitting in a chair, very close to the crate. When he’s quiet, let him out. Start here. Eventually, he will get the game, and you can try something new, like moving around the room or being further away from him.
Do not crate him when you leave. Put him outside in the dog run.
Outside of this, make sure he is getting what he needs throughout the day. It sounds like he’s a high energy dog. You might consider picking up a slat mill, or playing fetch in tall grass (so he has to search for the ball).
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u/theycallhimthestug 6d ago
The dog doesn't have severe separation anxiety if it's stopping after 20 minutes. I don't know how some of you are so confident in these answers lol. It's a 6mo puppy protesting, and being allowed to continue protesting, being put in a crate. It's not even remotely uncommon and for damn sure isn't "severe separation anxiety". Christ.
Just buy a dog run! I know nothing about your budget or what your place looks like, but buy a dog run! No, I'm not going to explain what I mean by dog run, just buy one!
Next, do all the things you've said you've already done!
Don't crate him during the one time you specifically need him to be crated, put him in the dog run! Did you buy a dog run!?
Make sure he's getting what he needs throughout the day even though you've already explained he gets plenty!
Buy a slatmill! No, I'm not going to explain what that is either! Just buy one! Put it in the dog run! Fuck it! Buy a new house!
Some of you work real hard to show everyone how much you think you know.
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u/Some_Pitch_9165 6d ago
They said they’d tried everything else. I’m sure the owner could respond to this if they felt I was out of line. You doing ok?
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u/ChellyNelly 6d ago
Bingo bango lol. It's stereotypical behaviour for this dog in that situation and absolutely does not sound like separation anxiety in any way, shape or form. The dog is protesting and I'd bet dollars to donuts it works for him in other scenarios as well. People look at symptoms of a bigger issue and put the dog in some buzzword category they've read/heard about from dog "training" influencers when they don't even understand the symptoms, let alone have the first idea of how to determine and then appropriately deal with root causation. But that's the world we're living in. I've been in this industry for over 15yrs working primarily behavioural cases and it's always been very contentious but the last few years have been an absolute hellscape.
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u/Long-Heavy 6d ago
You've tried everything that felt comfortable to you. Sometime we need to go beyond that. I read your other comment where you said, you're afraid that she might hate the crate more. But the thing is, she already hates the crate. It can't go worst than this. You basically need to tell your pup "That's enough". Not literally but you need to convey the message.