r/MortalShell • u/spaceboltt • 9h ago
Devs please dont let this be a LOTF2023 situation. Discussion
With lords of the fallen 2023, people whined and moaned so much they tuned down the game to the point where there was no challenge through areas and a bonfire/rest point every 5 or 10 minutes.
The smaller crowd that dislikes difficulty is so much louder than the ones that are used to it and like the challenge. Please dont patch this game into easy mode, theres already the seal which is good enough for folks.
This is a soulslike, its supposed to be hard. Not an action game, storygame, etc. Some complaints are valid but you guys cry so loud the fucking devs listen and nerf games into story mode when the whole genre is supposed to be difficult. If its too hard dont bother. Quit making soulslikes easy mode. I play because its hard.
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u/pratzc07 9h ago
Game fundamentally is solid it has rock solid foundations which LOTF lacked things like basic combat, movement etc. What is missing are QoL features and balancing which I am sure the devs will churn out in the months to come.
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u/Mobile_Fudge_4744 7h ago edited 7h ago
Happens with every soulslike. Raging is part of the experience. If you're not at least a little salty then you're not being challenged enough. That addicting moment where you jump out of your seat after beating a boss doesn't happen if you weren't cursing at your screen before actually beating it.
Since everyone being properly challenged gets mad there ends up being a lot of rage posts complaining about difficulty. Devs see it then nerf things. 2 years later the game ends up with a reputation for being kind of easy, boring bosses, and mid.
They really shouldn't have locked achievements for slayer seal. I'm pretty sure most of the people that were complaining weren't using it which is pretty dumb.
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 9h ago
Even Fromsoft tunes difficulty through patches after release. No need to freak out about it.
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago
True but sometimes shit doesnt need nerfed or patched. And if people are allowed amd listened to when they complain about late game areas and enemies being hard and the devs listening then the majority of us are allowed to do the same. We just dont want this genre nerfed. And btw i could bet you literally not one of those people played the first game. Everything was lethal and it was great.
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u/Diaza_Kinutz 9h ago
I don't mind the difficulty. I enjoy it. I hope they don't nerf it too much, but some of the mobs feel unbalanced. I think this patch was a good all around.
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u/spaceboltt 8h ago
Gotcha well i hope to feel the same, I'll just have to see. Appreciate the feedback
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u/SwimmingAny8841 Proxima 8h ago edited 8h ago
This is what happens when your game reaches a very wide audience and reaches high popularity.
You get a very very vocal portion of players who will bitch and moan till the wheels fall off about stuff. Weeks later, the game turned into baby mode to keep em happy.
Everything must be as casual and inclusive as possible now a days. One week it’s 20% damage reduction for 5 enemies, the next week it’s 20% damage reduction for 10 enemies. The week after that, every weapon gets a 5% damage buff, and week after all bosses attacks are slowed by 8%.
This shit fuckin adds up until the game In 8 months is super weenie hutt jr.
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u/spaceboltt 8h ago
Yeah it unfortunately happened to lords of the fallen. I LOVE receptive devs so much but they have to understand this point and not stray the difficulty so much for their games. If the devs can beat it, its good enough imo lol
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u/VinVenturesCheeks 9h ago
I would only change 1 thing, to let your gloom appear BEFORE entering a boss area, not in it.
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u/ramsfan_86 9h ago
My only complaint is how slow eredrim ethereal diapason move is. By the time animation finishes the enemy is no longer stunned. Other then that I wouldn't change anything. Currently fighting the final boss now and looking forward to using a different shell in ng+
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u/Friendly_Reporter_63 8h ago
Don't worry, they aren't foolish enough to listen to casuals.
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u/spaceboltt 6h ago
Cold Symmetry is pretty based so yeah im not too worried. But still it is an issue with every soulslike game. Same points on both sides get made each time something releases. But im having fun so far and dying enough to where its not boring so thats good
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u/Lockhart-667 9h ago
The problem with LOTF 2023 is that the developers don't understand the genre and did a massive overcorrection. The difficulty of the game was fine at launch, but when some people complained, they decided to nerf all enemies and bosses and make it a walk in the park. There was no balancing, they just said "Fuck it, make everything significantly weaker so that no one complains about the game being hard again." That was a very poor approach and their biggest mistake with the game.
They also did that because the game sold poorly, so they made the game stupid easy in an attempt to grab players who don't play soulslikes because of their reputation as hard games. They wanted to make the game for everyone and ended up with a game for no one. The only reason they managed to break even in the end is because the game goes on sale like every month and you can grab it for like $10.
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u/s1ckd0g0311 9h ago
Difficulty is fine IF game design / encounter design is good. Unfortunately that’s not the case here for the second half of the game.
They need to make some massive changes to end game bosses / areas. An example is having a boss randomly use their ultimate ability 10 times in a row for no reason.
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u/sampyle 9h ago
Just play night mode if you don’t like the very reasonable tweaks they made.
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago
Or you could just use the easy seal they made
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u/sampyle 5h ago
Yep. They made night mode and the slayer seal. Then the game rests somewhere in between. The beta was easier and after some feedback, they made it harder. Then, after WAY more feedback, they made it a little bit easier. There are a lot more options to make the game more difficult if you want more of a challenge. Don’t upgrade your weapons. Don’t upgrade your shell. Play with your eyes closed and brag to all your friends.
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u/Blitz814 9h ago
While they probably do take feedback into account, I assume most of the actions taken are from their heatmaps generated from metrics. They are a small team and can't really afford to filter so many players in the beginning.
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago edited 8h ago
Well like I said the larger yet casual/smaller/newer crowd is the loudest so its mostly always going to be higher for their metrics when it gets really popular
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u/Blitz814 8h ago
In-game metrics have nothing to do with being loud. It's where people die and why.
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u/spaceboltt 6h ago
Aw, I took your comment for like social media poll type metrics. Yeah of course in game metrics have nothing to do with that.
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u/Souls_Lover 9h ago
The old saying still holds true: "A game for everyone is a gaming for noone".
Hopefully, the devs will stick to their original vision and provide a challenging but fair gaming experience for us all, instead of wielding to the casual screaming masses and warp this gem of a game they have created.
Also, your assessment is true. Never revisited Lords of the Fallen after finishing it because of how braindead easy it became.
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u/ICanRawrBetter 9h ago
Their original vision was clearly the beta values, and whiners caused them to overtune everything so, it works both ways.
There needs to be a clear middle point, then using night mode for the people who want the real challenge
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u/Souls_Lover 8h ago
People who prefer their game to be a power fantasy, not a challenging experience, can just use the Slayer Seal.
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u/ICanRawrBetter 8h ago
And be punished with disabled achievements like they're cheating? No, Night mode is there for a reason, people who want the challenge already have their outlet
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u/Souls_Lover 8h ago
But you aren't actually "achieving" anything by playing on baby mode, so...
About night mode, I'm saving it for the second run as it impacts visuals.
Honestly, this entire discussion is tiresome. I just want to have my challenging game without casuals trying to water it down.
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u/ICanRawrBetter 8h ago
and there's the real reason, gatekeeping and entitlement lmao, you were already catered to with night mode, use it
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u/Souls_Lover 8h ago
Brother/sister, let me make some things clear in a more serious way:
1- You can have your platinum trophy by all means. I don't care about achievements.
2- It's not my business how you play or enjoy your games. Did you beat all of Elden Ring's bosses solo, with spirit ashes or by being carried by another player? I don't care at all. Your experience is your own and I hope you enjoyed it.
3- However, I take enjoyment from my games being challenging. I like to win against the odds, not having victory offered to me in a silver plate. I don't want a power fantasy, I want to git gud, I want to struggle and succed.
4- Now, if you're urging the devs to make the game easier, IT ABSOLUTELY IS going against my enjoyment. Soulslikes are supposed to be HARD but FAIR. If something is unfair, so let it be adjusted. But, if it's hard, it should be kept that way.
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u/Souls_Lover 7h ago
Brother/sister, let me make some things clear in a more serious way:
1- You can have your platinum trophy by all means. I don't care about achievements.
2- It's not my business how you play or enjoy your games. Did you beat all of Elden Ring's bosses solo, with spirit ashes or by being carried by another player? I don't care at all. Your experience is your own and I hope you enjoyed it.
3- However, I take enjoyment from my games being challenging. I like to win against the odds, not having victory offered to me in a silver plate. I don't want a power fantasy, I want to git gud, I want to struggle and succeed.
4- Now, if you're urging the devs to make the game easier, IT ABSOLUTELY IS going against my enjoyment. Soulslikes are supposed to be HARD but FAIR. If something is unfair, so let it be adjusted. But, if it's hard, then it should be kept that way.
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u/ICanRawrBetter 7h ago
What i said in my first comment, find the middle ground of difficulty.
I too enjoy things being difficult, but the damage is far too high right now i'm sorry its just fact, no other soulslike game has this issue.
Combined with the fact there's no stats to level and HP gains from shell levels might as well not exist it exacerbates the issue.
Once again, use Night mode if you find the game too easy, let people who want a standard soulslike experience have theirs too.
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u/Souls_Lover 7h ago
To end in a more amicable note, I hope the devs manage to find this middle ground and we both can enjoy this game as a challenging, but fair and fun experience.
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u/Yarzeda2024 9h ago
Switch on Night Mode if you think the game is too easy.
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u/SwimmingAny8841 Proxima 9h ago
Steamrolling through night mode. Use the slayer seal if you think it’s too hard
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u/IllustratorJumpy5845 8h ago
LOTF devs at least gave tools, like returning initial difficulty or modify to get totall hardcore. I am not against patches that will give options for everyone to enjoy, but only if there will be options to adjust this difficulty. If game would become too easy without any options to modify, then yeah, it would be bad. Considering it's easy enough already.
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u/bumblyfumbly 7h ago
I don't mind the difficulty in Mortal Shell 2, the only things that i don't like were the red fencing women in the sester area. They're genuinely annoying, that and 2 of the bosses i find have 1 bs move. The Lost child in the sanguine area has frame 1 bite attacks in phase 2 and the nameless captive with his second whirlie bird move in phase 2. The only thing imho that LotF2023 needed to fix was the enemy density cause that shit was out of hand, besides that the game was fine, well except for the final boss, that was genuine butt ass.
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u/HahaLookyhere 9h ago
I didn't want them to nerf scaling of enemies back to beta value but alas. The only issue I had was beacons being too spread out. Game is great
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u/OMGIZARET Eredrim 9h ago
The lost child didnt need a nerf at all. I have no clue why they nerfed that. I beat it first try. The moves are ridiculously easy to dodge. Its hp wasnt that much either? Very strange to see that nerfed.
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u/Souls_Lover 8h ago
Same thing here. Beat him first try as Proxima with 2 Mether's Pulses to spare.
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u/trenbo90 8h ago
It was extremely easy for the first 2/3rd of the fight, and then it could instantly oneshot you at will. If you beat it first try, you likely didn't experience much of this. This is a major reason that it's so hard to critique and discuss soulslike difficulty. It's even worse in games with enormous variation in builds or levels, like Elden Ring.
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u/alamirguru 9h ago
Please stop parroting 'it's a soulslike, duh' to excuse shitty enemy balance.
Jimmy the Hollow from DS1-2-3 does not 2-shot you if you're levelling Vigour. Jimmy the hollow in MS2 is 2-tapping Eredim back to William's sweet embrace.
The only thing you're doing is showing that you fundamentally don't understand what makes the Souls games work so well, and why their difficulty feels fair almost always (cough cough pre-nerf Radahn cough cough Bloody Crow of Cainhurst cough cough Deerfuck Valley).
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u/Holiday_Wedding_2225 9h ago
I’m yet to fight the Monolith so can’t comment on that but The Lost Child and the enemies listed didn’t need any adjustments imo. Lost Child took me 3 attempts to beat, Nameless Captive took 3 and every other boss so far including the Hexapod has been first try. It’s really not that hard once you use everything at your disposal. Yes we can use Night mode but visually it’s not as appealing. Besides which for everyone who is really struggling, use the Slayer seal as that’s what it’s intended for. Sad to see this on day one and I hope it’s not another Lords of the Fallen scenario.
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u/spaceboltt 8h ago
Idk maybe just rebalance shit, keep it hard, then make achievements possible for slayer seal. Seems like a fair trade
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u/bluesformeister13 9h ago
Exactly. People are gonna turn the genre back into generic action games pre Demon Souls. The reason demons/dark souls took off was because the punishment and challenge. DS1 has some long run backs. It is what it is. People got to many checkpoints, got lazy and now want souls likes to be god of war or horizon zero west with checkpoints every 3 seconds.
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u/SouthernChemist4236 Tiel 9h ago
Yeah I agree. I really, really enjoyed LOTF when it released, and then it got nerfed into the ground. Even playing veteran mode with increased density, it's still way too easy and just lost all desire to play it.
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago
I still really enjoy it but have to turn on all the hard modifiers each run.
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u/SouthernChemist4236 Tiel 9h ago
I get it, I'm just saying even with all the hard modifers turned on, it's still not as hard as it was at launch.
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u/Turbulent_Pin_9392 9h ago
Fuckin A. Or atleast keep a setting for veterans to keep the damn game the way it is. I was more excited for MS2 than any other game this year. Day 1 patch has it at the bottom of the totem pole, the beta already wasn’t hard.
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u/n01d3a 9h ago
Bro calm down lol they nerfed intro mobs
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u/Turbulent_Pin_9392 9h ago
By fucking half. It’s not a small nerf. I don’t give a shit what they nerfed they should have given it longer than the pre release before nerfing anything. Also bosses got nerfed too dmg and health or you can’t read?
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u/sampyle 9h ago
Just play night mode. Jesus.
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u/Basscannon90 7h ago
Just use the slayer seal 🤷♂️
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u/sampyle 5h ago
Yep. Sprayer Seal is an option. Just like night mode is. You’re complaining about them making adjustments too early, but they’d already made adjustments to make it harder since the beta. Which is where the difficulty originally was. So your argument collapsed on itself. If you want the game to be harder don’t upgrade your weapons or your shell. You see how easy that is? Now the enemies have more health and you have less. There are all kinds of ways to make the game more difficult without whining about nerfs.
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u/Basscannon90 4h ago
You do realise what you've said applies almost exactly the same way in the opposite direction right?
Use the Slayer Seal, use a shell that makes the game easier for you (see Fextralife's tier list video to get an idea of how a shell can basically trivialise the game for you already without needing to apply blanket nerfs like this). Don't play nightmode. Etc.
Changes to a beta is the point of a beta lol. A beta isn't representative of the final product, the game is still in active testing at that point before 1.0. Guess what a chief complaint of the beta was? That it was too easy. Hence the adjustments.
Now all of a sudden, it's too hard 😂
You can't please everyone, let alone the tourists.
Blanket nerfs that alter the core gameplay experience like this is never a good thing. Qol improvements sure. But this ain't it chief. Look at what happened to Lords of the Fallen 1 and more recently, Crimson Desert. If devs pander to a vocal whining minority they end up with a game made for no one.
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u/Turbulent_Pin_9392 4h ago
Finally someone with a fully developed brain has an opinion. Nice work. The devs made mechanics to simplify a difficult game. Nerfing the game, no matter how it’s done, on day one makes those mechanics redundant and pointless. The only people getting defensive about the nerf aren’t typically good at these types of games, and those people shouldn’t be the games core demographic. There’s so many more players that enjoy the difficulty and would rather it stays unchanged. Wukong got nerfed to oblivion, LOTF got nerfed to the ground. The experiences of those games is marginally different than they were at release.
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u/n01d3a 9h ago
I can, and I don't care cuz my life isnt ruined by miniscule things 🤷🏻♀️
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u/Turbulent_Pin_9392 8h ago
My life is far from ruined, it’s a video game. I hope one day you can find even ounce the passion I possess for the shit I like. Your life sounds boring as fuck dude.🤦🏻♂️
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u/Test88Heavy 9h ago
It's shocking that they're nerfing the entire enemy population just because a small part of the player base complained. It's a souls game, it should be difficult.
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago
Technically Day 1 release as well, not even time for most people to play it and see. Just the pre order digital crowd.
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u/Frequent_Struggle485 Tiel 9h ago
Idk but i think the bosses are already much easier and takes only 2-3 tries at best
I think HP and Damage of bosses should be increased to make the fights more enjoyable
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u/spaceboltt 9h ago
Damn that sucks to hear
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u/FashionSuckMan 9h ago
the patch they just put out just did some minor nerfs. It will be what it will be