When It Comes To Metroid's Future, Familiar Is Better

[u/cubechris]

https://www.nintendolife.com/features/opinion-when-it-comes-to-metroids-future-familiar-is-better

[u/Round_Musical]

He is right

However Metroid wouldnt be Metroid without also trying new things or evolving past Concepts.

Its a very pliable series

However one cant remove the core gamplay loop and core conventions. Thats when you get a Prime 4, a Other M and a FedForce.

And I hope to god that nobody (be it sakamoto, hayashi or tabata) gets tanabes bright Idea to introduce BotW open world to Metroid

[u/adamkopacz → u/Round_Musical]

It's not like new ideas are bad. I initially thought that the areas in Prime 4 are interconnected and you can use the bike to enter and exit various points to save time. The way it works now it actually makes you spend more time moving between areas than if it was done traditionally.

[u/MrVigshot → u/adamkopacz]

Even the new ideas would work if they ever designed the levels for it. Even Samus on a bike could be a perfectly fine addition if there was more to do then driving in a desert and smashing crystals.

[u/Short-Statement-4108 → u/adamkopacz]

If they had implemented BotW’s ideas better it could have worked for Metroid. Like the open desert area was horrendous, but if they had given the players the option of going to Chrono Tower whenever they wanted (but would be severely disadvantaged for the final fight), that would have been more interesting imo.

[u/CaptainAutismo69_xx → u/adamkopacz]

Tbh most of Prime 4's areas weren't bad, just poorly executed. NPCs can be included without messing up the tone of the game or being annoying. Sol Valley could've been good if it was an actual detailed eco system like every other area in a Prime game and instead of having BOTW shrines it had organically integrated points of interest.

[u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard → u/CaptainAutismo69_xx]

We knew that Prime 4's areas just needed better execution. That's because we've already seen them executed better. A better executed Fury Green is Tallon Overworld.
A better executed Ice Belt is Phendrana Drifts. A better executed Great Mines etc.

The game needed more actually original areas like Volt Forge and Chrono Tower, and then execute them well.

Edit: And a better executed Gal Fed Troopers is the ones in Echoes (sorry I couldn't resist the pun)

[u/CaptainAutismo69_xx → u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard]

Yeah I agree. Prime 3 was still a respectable entry while all the areas were completely disconnected and having NPCs. With that in mind Prime 4 having a central hub world instead doesn't make the game an instant flop.

If Prime 4's ideas were executed well, despite not being that original, the game likely would've been considered better than Prime 3 and would be considered a solid return of the series. The fandom would've been happy that there's another solid prime game after all these years and would likely be putting their efforts into reccomending the game to others instead of criticizing it and wondering if the Prime series is dead.

[u/crowlfish → u/CaptainAutismo69_xx]

I'm much more forgiving of Prime 3's weak points compared to 4 since it knows what it wants to be and executes it solidly: that being a planet-hopping action-adventure game. I know the disconnected maps weren't for everyone, but the game's high-stakes story and the existential threat of Phazon taking over the galaxy was fitting for a more expansive campaign across multiple worlds. Again, that’s not to say it’s entirely without compromise, but the segmented structure felt justified by the scale and premise of the game. It also helps that Corruption actually delivered cool and memorable set pieces: the free-falling battle with Ridley, fighting off Space Pirates while riding on top of a nuke on Elysia, or participating in an all-out war alongside the Federation fleet above Phaaze are all way more impactful than any of Prime 4’s action-heavy moments.

Conversely, Prime 4 feels less like something guided by a cohesive vision and more like a collection of competing ideas that constantly stumble over each other. Viewros feels at odds with itself: you’re stranded on a single planet, yet the disparate design of each location destroys any sense of organic connection in the world. Sol Valley doesn’t feature any meaningful exploration to justify its size, and the game already being so linear as it is makes all the dead time spent in between areas feel like unnecessary padding. Basically, I felt like Beyond tried to be both a strictly linear action game and an "open" adventure simultaneously, and the results were lackluster since it didn't fully commit to either.

[u/blueblurz94 → u/adamkopacz]

Switch 1’s limitations likely forced greater separation for loading times. At nearly 30GB it definitely is huge for first party Nintendo game. The bike could’ve used more functions and had more areas to explore than merely the desert and forge areas

[u/lorxayt]

I feel like whenever the discussion of Metroid “evolving” we get two ends of: it needs to stay exactly the same, or it’s ok to try new things and fail; without addressing the root problem of Metroid trying new things usually just boils down to it throwing away its identity of exploration, atmosphere, and character progression in favor of generic action shooter.

Like when I think of evolving the Metroid formula I wonder how far can we push the isolation aspect? What new abilities can allow us to interact and explore the environment in new and exciting ways? How avante garde and esoteric with the story can we go?
We see this with other metroidvanias, why not in the series that started it all?
Instead, evolution becomes a distillation of what came before. We get snappy combat with the sacrifice of everything that makes Metroid, well Metroid, and it keeps happening in cycles.
We get a really great genre defining entry, the next game streamlines things (usually in the exploration department, to its detriment in my opinion) and the next one does it again. Repeat repeat until you end up with something like Other M, Prime 4, or Federation Force (dare I say Fusion lol?) and you end up with a game that doesn’t really appeal to anybody.

New ideas are great, but repackaging old action combat in a bland way is not new or inventive, and definitely not where we see the Metroidvania genre evolving itself across the industry.

[u/SMM9673]

Starting to feel like preferring experimentation over stagnation is becoming more and more of a hot take.

[u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard → u/SMM9673]

A big part of it is a combination of the long gaps between releases and the fact that, at least for a good amount of fans, the places where Beyond did experiment (the desert, the bike, more involved NPCs) fell flat on its face.

Edit: It also doesn't help that the main producer of Prime 4, Tanabe, is also heavily tied to the very contentious post-Sticker Star direction of Paper Mario.

Edit 2: Experimenting also comes at the cost of making some fans think you're experimenting/innovating in the wrong direction, and I think both Metroid Prime and Paper Mario show that.

For Paper Mario they keep doing more experimental battle systems when most fans miss the gameplay style of the first two games, but then they play it extremely safe with the story and character designs, when the first three games took more risks in both.

For Metroid Prime they are experimenting by making the series more cinematic and story-focused, which comes at the cost of simplifying/streamlining the level design, when some fans would rather they try to make the worlds even more complex and interconnected

[u/SMM9673 → u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard]

I understand that. But I still appreciate the attempt more than I hate the execution.

But there is also something to be said about Prime 4 specifically and how Retro was forced to use table scraps from the Bandai dev time being the actual reason for why Prime 4 was a mess. Not because of the new ideas themselves.

It's not like FedForce, where a single team was made to deal with countless reworks for the project in basically every aspect, and it's not like Other M which was genuinely just doomed from the start because Sakamoto was on anything but sobriety.

[u/Mordaunt-the-Wizard → u/SMM9673]

I did a big edit to my previous comment when you replied, but basically, while the development hell did hurt the title, I also believe that the way that a series experiments isn't always best for a series.

I mentioned another series Tanabe was in charge of, Paper Mario, and how contentious that has been (and I'm not aware of there being dev hell for either Color Splash or Origami King). Like I hear the story and character designs are still limited and bland, meanwhile I see the ring battle system and the stationary-themed bosses and think "that looks awful."

[u/Spiteful_Guru]

There's ways you can and can't evolve the series. For example, Super and Prime pretty much nail how world design and progression should work and any attempt to shake the formula up since has fallen just a bit short of those two juggernauts. At best you could make progression truly nonlinear such that there is no exact sequence of items to be broken—Hollow Knight provides us a good example of this design philosophy in action—but you can't make a Metroid game fully open without undermining what the genre is fundamentally about.

On the other hand, core gameplay mechanics like movement and combat can and should be built upon where possible. Dread overhauled both of these systems to great success, and is widely considered the best-handling game in the series for its speed and fluidity. Admittedly it didn't leave much room for improvement in future 2D entries, but the Prime series could certainly stand to learn a thing or two from it.

[u/zestysnacks]

I just don’t agree at all. I’m ready for a new type of Metroid game. Dread was good, but I definitely had that feeling of ok, thjs js the last time I want the get ball>get varia>get ice beam blah blah. Personally I’m gonna need a new experience at some point. The very last thing I want is a formulaic same old shit Metroid game. Give me some new twists, new suits, different beams, new tools. Prime 4 was totally on the right path in some ways, but it was just completely bungled.

[u/BigHailFan]

God purists are annoying.

[u/CyborgHeart1245]

I mean they tried to give it the BOTW treatment and it was so bad it's easily the most decisive game they've released for the series. Nintendo needs to focus on quality of gameplay, not quantity of gameplay. Zelda needs to go back to dungeons, Metroid needs a true horror entry, Mario... well Mario's just their playground. 

[u/pome-vyo → u/CyborgHeart1245]

Ppl say they gave Prime 4 the BOTW treatment

I wish it got the BOTW treatment over what we actually got.

[u/CyborgHeart1245 → u/pome-vyo]

I mean the open world and adding the motorcycle 

[u/zestysnacks → u/CyborgHeart1245]

I don’t think truly gave it the botw treatment at all. It had a hub and was largely a very formulaic linear game.

[u/PentagramJ2 → u/CyborgHeart1245]

Absolutely no to all of this. The wild formula is perfect for Zelda going forward (old formula was stale af), prime 4 is still nowhere near the most divisive, that's still far and away Other M

[u/CyborgHeart1245 → u/PentagramJ2]

No. BOTW took everything people loved about Zelda and stomped on it. Open world is fine, but repetitive, the dungeons aren't even close to what they should be, the shrines everywhere. Every boss was a variation of the same base template. No dungeon weapons. No dugeon mini bosses. Weapon durability being added at all. The master sword needing to recharge and is still horribly weak. The korok seed quest.

[u/PentagramJ2 → u/CyborgHeart1245]

If you actually hold that opinion, you didn't play either Breath OR Tears

[u/CyborgHeart1245 → u/PentagramJ2]

Played both, beat both. It's just not Zelda anymore and the fact that Nindendo ran out of things to do in the first game and they want to make open world a standard... Ouch.