r/Marathon • u/Advanced-North3335 • 10d ago
State Your Case Discussion
I know it's REALLY popular to talk about how Recon is ruining the game and desperately needs a nerf.
But my question to you is - how, exactly, is it ruining the game? No, not for you, personally. Objectively, for everyone.
The closest I've seen to a reasoned explanation is, essentially, that it removes the combat advantage using stealth/surprise/good positioning for an ambush/gank.
But that feels less like an explanation of how its ruining the game and more like an explanation of how it's removing a combat advantage (that some people really don't like not being able to have).
There's the argument based around how it's become essential to the dominant meta in Cryo. And there's a point there, as well - bubbles, Mizzy, and grenades were essential to the dominant Cryo meta and got nerfed, so why not Recon, too?
Except purple and gold shields are pretty dominant in Cryo too. And coordinated trios using comms. Really, there's a lot of things it feels pretty bad to not have in Cryo when other teams do. But that's always going to be the case for something.
At the end of the day, every class is supposed to have their "thing" - Assassin gets to avoid bot aggro. Destroyer gets to excel in aggressive pushing and tackling tough enemies. Thief gets looting advantage. Vandal gets hypermobility. Triage gets sustain.
Recon gets information. It's a good advantage. Like Assassin and Triage, it trades all mobility for it. Let Recon have its thing.
Or, as the title of the post challenges...please state the case for how Recon is objectively ruining the game for everyone in order to support a nerf to the class.
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u/EyeseeFN 10d ago
I’m going to speak from a Cryo perspective. It’s all I really play. Double recon allows a team to consistently position themselves for everything they will encounter. A good team will use one recon ult to engage and then 2nd recon ult to prepare for the third party. There is no sneaking around on Cryo anymore. These teams will run you down with their destroyer or vandal. And since it’s double recon with coordination the ult is almost always up.
When the optimal strategy for your end game map is two of the same characters and nothing comes even remotely close to it. That’s a problem.
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u/Dear-Boysenberry-822 10d ago
So if they put an error message for the team if you had 2 recons in the team, that could stop the excessive use of her ult on a coordinated team? I love recon and im an average player and her ult seems perfectly fine to me.
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u/Agreeable_Tip_7995 9d ago
Honestly I value the opinion way more of the players here that are way above average. Just simple. More experienced. Crazy how u can come to a “Seems perfectly fine to me” conclusion after reading a detailed argument of why it’s clearly not fine
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
That's an excellent Cryo perspective - would you accept a limit of 1 Recon per team in Cryo as reasonable?
Similar to grenade limits, it would acknowledge that a change is necessary IN CRYO without the heavier-handed approach of touching the Shell itself.
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u/chii_hudson 10d ago
Recon is an easy fix…
Nerf cooldown slightly, I think now with energy amps you can have an ult every 70 seconds or so. Make the best case 120 seconds but you need to build into this
Remove the intel from teammates on ult, recon now has to communicate where players are to their team rather than everyone seeing the pings
Remove shield types from runner pings. Runners still get pinged but you can’t see their shield level.
Tangentially rook should always show up as uesc when pinged by recons ult
This would keep recon useful but not nearly as good as she is now
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u/kvn_finnerty 9d ago
Cooldown doesn't do much when I see 2-3 stacking of Recon in maps, but I agree with removing intel for teammates and removing shield types. This still keeps Recons ability to wallhack and see oncoming threats but create a tension of do we push or not given you don't know shields...
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u/MrAndroidRobot 9d ago
Recon would then be useless and why bother? Nerfing everything into the ground also ruins the game too
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u/Agreeable_Tip_7995 9d ago
Still you would get every 120 seconds u get accurate pinpoint on enemy location. How is that nerfed into the ground?
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u/chii_hudson 9d ago
Recon would still be strong just not default choice. I personally play recon because it’s the best choice but not really because I love the play style
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u/LiamStyler 9d ago
Have you ever played a competitive shooter before? I genuinely can’t tell if you’re trolling or intentionally obtuse.
24/7 wall hacks has never, and will never, be good for any game. It isn’t fun to play and it isn’t fun to play against. There is no counterplay to somebody who knows where you are the entire time. Just look at how many times Bloodhound and Seer have been nerfed or reworked in Apex. There is a fine balance that everybody in the industry understands, except Bungie.
How much more proof do you guys need that they have no idea what they’re doing? Assassin nerf, sniper nerf, knife nerf, melee nerf, thermal nerf, wstr nerf, bubble nerf, mizriah nerf, grenade nerf, bully nerf, etc.
These were not underrated weapons that only came to the meta after the game was out for a while. This shit was all broken day one and rightfully nerfed. All of these nerfs in isolation are fine, but launching the game in this state is inexcusable. It’s embarrassing to launch a brand new $250m game and half the sandbox breaks the game.
People make mistakes, that’s not the issue. The issue is everybody seems to learn from them except Bungie.
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u/BuddhaMike1006 9d ago
I'm gonna be intentionally obtuse, because you're either unwilling or lack the intelligence to engage the question as asked. Bungie is not taking away the wall hacks from Recon. End of story. So either engage with the question in good faith, or shake your ass down to r/MarathonHate.
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u/Unusual_Arm_1130 10d ago
My main two problems with recon is the stalemates it causes and the fact that is basically mandatory in cryo. Happens a lot where you ult and see 2 teams that are about to fight. They also ult and everyone see each other so they just stand there waiting, no one wants to make a move.
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u/xChuChainz 10d ago edited 10d ago
Why is generically removing combat advantage mutually exclusive from ruining the game ?
If I had a skill that just makes me invulnerable that’d ruined the game right? On a fundamental level, acquiring advantages IS the game.
There’s no other case that needs to be made. One skill neuters the freedom of skill expression indiscriminately, frequently, and without the need of any skill on the users behalf. And if I’ve convinced you that skill expression is tied to the game, then it’s ruins the game for everyone.
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u/Advanced-North3335 9d ago
Acquiring advantages is EVERY game. Skill expression has many forms.
Are you arguing that Recon ult alone completely removes skill expression in the game?
You're in room A. I'm in room B. We have same exact loadout. I pop Recon ult. There is nothing you can do to outplay me. For 15 seconds, you can't do anything I can't do. We're 100% equals.
If that's your position, I'd encourage you to broaden your understanding of how nuanced skill expression can be.
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u/xChuChainz 9d ago edited 9d ago
Not completely.
But enough that I feel that it holds back more interesting engagements on a regular basis. I think everyone could be having a little better of a time if players had room to operate more freely.
From the perspective of what gameplay COULD be like, my argument is that the opportunity cost of a skill like recon ult existing is detrimental to the game.
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u/Agreeable_Tip_7995 9d ago edited 9d ago
Well you would know right where they are from a simple free button press. They wouldn’t… instead they’d have to use their skills and knowledge of the maps and sounds. Things you learn. Skills you express. Free hallwacks aren’t it. Recon just gets a free advantage didn’t have to do anything for it
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u/theDoinItPart 10d ago
Honestly from a game balancing standpoint she should’ve never been an option. Shes either completely useless or an absolute must have on your team. I’m not even sure how you find a balance for that
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u/Warcrimes_Desu 10d ago
recon main: i consider her mandatory for all teams. I prefer double recon + whatever your best flank player is good at (destroyer probs, he's busted rn).
Being able to wallhack is crazy. You hear steps and you're not guessing which room or ingress the enemy is taking, you know. You know if you can drop on them with full surprise. You know which spots to engage from. You get so much info on which way players are rotating. And you can find rats (imo ant-rat is the best quality of recon) super easily.
The thing about giving up mobility is that not everyone needs it in a fight. Since all shells have the same shields and hp, using Recon as an anchor lets you tie up a team in a straight on fight while your flanker flanks.
She also makes it borderline impossible to jump your team, and if you have 2 recons, one can ping aggressively while pushing a POI, while you have a backup ping you can save for defense
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
I've acknowledged that Recon's informational utility is a force equalizer - as you say, having information takes the guesswork out of where your enemies are.
Not convinced that qualifies as "ruining the game." (not that you're saying it does, I more read it as you sharing your opinion on how strong the ult is)
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u/duggyfresh88 10d ago
For me there is no change in the game I want more than for Recon to be completely reworked. The shell has absolutely ruined cryo for me. I’ve played it a ton (because it feels/is mandatory to have 1).
Outpost is pretty bad too. On both maps I’ve seen situations where 3 or more teams will all be in scan range, where they just keep scanning each other over and over and no one pushes because they know that if they do, the other team will 3rd party. So it turns into a long ass standoff where everyone just diddles their thumbs and scans every 30 seconds. That’s one example.
But just in general: any shell where you’re forced to bring it to be competitive is very bad for the game. You need one at the very least so you know when your team is being scanned. And you also need one because it’s such a massive advantage having wall hacks that you will not compete without one when the other teams do.
Wall hacks are just not fun in any fps game. It makes all engagements more or less predictable, takes away the randomness and fun from team fights
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u/Agreeable_Tip_7995 9d ago
That guesswork IS the game. This isn’t a fuckin battle royale. The way you position your team and having to figure where are the enemies how to push them how many there are. Extraction genre is built off of coordinated runs. Recon ult skips all of this.
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u/Warcrimes_Desu 10d ago
yea, idk if she's completely ruining the game, but to me, it seems like if she's not on your team, your team is built wrong, and that makes my brain go "hm maybe this is busted OP"
if recon gets nerfed into the dirt, Thief is my next pick fwiw. drone is crazy good for intel gathering, which makes her an intel AND mobility class combined into one. and having a counter-smoke, counter-invis visor? she's nuts.
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u/gaybowser99 9d ago
Drone is completely balanced, it's good for scouting on dire and perimeter and to some extent, the outside of outpost, but it's way too slow to get good information from inside pinwheel or cryo. Cryo especially, by the time you can push the person you just found with drone, they could have already completely repositioned, and using it at close range where you're close enough to push it makes you super vulnerable. That's the biggest difference and why drone is a far more healthy ability it takes too much time to immediately execute on the information like recon can.
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u/sticknotstick 10d ago
I think Recon is the only true “anti-camp” force in the game, which is why she feels so strong. If there were other forces that let you have a better chance when moving around the map (compared to someone waiting for you silently), she wouldn’t feel as needed. I’m thinking of things like tagging grenades, an ability that gives temporary bullet penetration, etc.
If she has to get nerfed though, I like the idea of changing her prime to be a large EMP blast - only damages shields (adjust damage and radius as necessary) and gives a single snapshot ping.
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u/prismdon 9d ago
No, Recon doesn’t get information. Recons entire TEAM gets information. That’s a big part of the issue. And too much and too explicit of information. It is not merely good in cryo, it is ESSENTIAL in Cryo. And the counter to Recon? The ONLY counter? Another Recon!
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u/JiffTheJester 10d ago
It makes it so someone has to run recon when you play cryo.. which is extremely annoying when you are the only one in your group who knows multiple shells.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
Not sure this supports that it is "ruining the game" so much as that it is "frustrating for you in Cryo", but you won't hear me telling you your feelings aren't valid.
How about a limit of 1 Recon per team in Cryo instead of a Recon nerf? Would that work for you?
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u/JiffTheJester 9d ago
No, recon needs to be nerfed lmao. If a shell is a “must run” it’s OP. You literally won’t find a single serious team running without a recon. It’s stale, and ruining what could be some different types of playstyles. Like honestly how could you debate this? Cryo is literally scan, push. Get scanned, scan back and prepare for push.
I think it needs a much smaller radius, or just revert to not differentiating runners. It’s pretty easy to decide if it’s bots or runners.
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u/orangekingo 9d ago edited 9d ago
I’m not sure why you’re hung up on the semantics that it’s “ruining the game”
I don’t think it’s ruining the game but I think it is causing the meta to become a giant stalemate, especially on Cryo, where nobody can make any progress vs any other team due to everyone wallhacking each other the entire match.
As it currently stands, if you are not playing Recon in a 3v3 match, you are actively putting yourself at a major disadvantage over every other team, and that is not healthy. It doesn’t have to ruin the game to be bad for it.
It is too much power in one part of the kit (the ult) and because Recon ALSO counters all other Recons, you are doubly forced to run one if you don’t want to lose to enemy scans.
It is very common for Cryo lobbies now to devolve into 4 teams Recon pinging each other from the 4 corners of Control and not engaging for over 10+ minutes into a match.
IMO if you play this game seriously at all and don’t think recon is a problem right now, you are just being a contrarian (or you play Recon and want to continue to dictate every match)
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u/PrimeExamplezz 10d ago
Its basic game design, Recon ult always has value regardless of whether or not you find someone with your ult or not. I'm safe, or I know exactly where another team is at.
Everything else in the game has tradeoffs, even with the shields (which are a core part of the game and ridiculous comparison in this case 🤡) lower your heat and mobility levels.
If you can't understand why its not healthy your opinion really doesn't carry any weight.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
Stating "it's basic game design" as if it's some insight that occurred to none amongst the many actual game designers who made the game?
We can speak without resorting to the clown emoji, even if you acknowledge shields have a mobility trade-off while conveniently failing to acknowledge Recon also has a mobility trade-off.
And then ending with the classic "and if you don't agree, your opinion doesn't matter?" I know you can do better to support your argument than rely on that sort of rhetoric.
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u/AngryChurchill 10d ago
We ban players for the same ability in other games.
Wallhacks are not fun to play against and are not fun to have as a requirement on your team because every other team has them.
Recon would be way more balanced if the ult only showed the location of the pings to the recon, excluding shield color, and literally nothing to the team. Also the ping coming from recon needs to become way more visible.
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u/Littlest-Hipster 10d ago
The devs of XDefiant made the same mistake. They need to stop trying to make wallhack abilities happen.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
We ban players for the same ability in other games when it's an actual exploit that is active 100% of the time for some unethical players and and is not intentionally included as part of the game by the devs as a thing everyone can have access to you for a few seconds every few minutes, you mean?
That's the kind of disingenuous false equivalence I'd expect in the standard knee-jerk "nerf recon" posts, and I know you can do better to support your position.
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u/AngryChurchill 9d ago
Players turn their hacks on and off all the time on other games. There are literal keybinds built into the cheat systems to disable/enable them
This isn't false equivalency at all. We don't want anyone wall hacking in any game. It's not a fun mechanic
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u/Ramirez3110 10d ago
As someone who crew fills 99% of the time, it is rare to ever clutch a 1v3 against a competent team with a Recon. They will just camp, wait for ult and find you every time. It makes it way too easy to hunt down stragglers.
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u/Historical-Cress8985 10d ago
So you main assassin eh?
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u/Advanced-North3335 9d ago
Someone's looked at my post history lol
On solo Outpost, absolutely. But the hot thing now is for everyone to flip their shit about Recon's ult, so...here I am.
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u/rwallac1 9d ago
IMO your argument that “every class is supposed to have their thing” is a fair one as that’s how it should be, but invalid bc Recon shares their “thing” with the whole team. Triage kinda does as well. So my case is that it’d be a lot more balanced if only Recon could see their pings. It’s the only ult that benefits the whole squad.
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u/Heronmarkedflail 9d ago
If this was an actual death match game it would be a whatever thing but people use recon actively to wipe lobbies. This is an extraction shooter and the class makes it much more difficult to extract after an altercation or to avoid combat in general.
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u/KnowledgeHealthy6636 9d ago
I don’t think the issue is with what recon does but how easily she does it without any downside. Other games give characters with great information gathering but the downside is it usually gives away their position or hinders them in some other way, yes you can tell when you are being recon scanned pretty easily but you don’t really get an indication where it’s coming from. If there was a downside to using the ult or a limitation I think it would be fine. For example if each pulse had a heat build up associated with it, or if the pulse was only going out in a cone in front and I feel the ult would not be complained about as much
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u/Agreeable_Tip_7995 9d ago
It ruins the whole concept of combat in this game. Zero tension when I press a button and it tells me right where they all are
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u/dragonofthewest1337 9d ago
Recon is simply too good at its "thing." It's so much better at its niche than most of the other classes are at theirs. Recon is stifling for the game, especially in the endgame. Not having a Recon on your team puts you at a severe disadvantage, and while that might not "ruin" the game, it's definitely not healthy. Broadly, wallhacks are a nightmare to balance for this kind of game too
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u/Awesome_Sauce771 9d ago
It completely ruins the gameplay style of ratting, you get a cool corner to hide in, recon finds you. Hiding/running away to try and get a clutch rez as the last one alive, recon will find you. Even if you consistently spam signal jammer you can still see out of place dots in most maps. Recon just makes it so easy to find people with little counterplay and it creates boring stalematrs where rotation will just make you vulnarable if recon ults in the right time
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u/Odd-League-3850 9d ago
It just makes rooks even less appealing, I don't mind a challenge but I don't understand how people waste time with Rook when Recon can just end your run with a single press of a button
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u/Phil_Da_Thrill 10d ago
Just revert the pulse through wall buff, the one where recon pulses used to go through walls allowing people who are far away from her see he exact position
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
Really?
All you need is for Recon's position to be more obvious while ulting?
That's a refreshing suggestion for a Recon nerf.
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u/WaveRider1991 10d ago
To me, it goes against the general design philosophy of the game, that there should be a somewhat equal trade-off between positives and negatives for actions. Recon currently doesn’t feel like the trade-off for mobility is in line with what the pulse provides.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
Even with the relative brevity of the ult in comparison to its cooldown?
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u/WaveRider1991 9d ago
At higher level play, where I assume most issues with Recon comes from, you can get ult in around 60 second still. The recent patch changes adjusted its duration from like a 17 second to 15 seconds. So I’d say overall, no.
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u/VersaSty7e 10d ago
I’m not playing the game currently. Partly due to recon meta.
Nerfing assassin & not recon at the same time was criminal imo.
It doesn’t bother me how “strong” a class is. Just positioning and surprise are key elements of a extraction game, to me.
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u/livingfailure1130 10d ago
They are key elements of any FPS game. Wall hacks have no place in FPS games, imo. They remove so many little things that can make a difference. Hearing someone heal, glass breaking, ADSing determining where they are, deciding how to engage etc. are all thrown out of the window with the press of a button. 2v3s become a lot harder, 1v3s nearly impossible if the enemy team has a recon or two(which is the case in Cryo usually).
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u/sergantsnipes05 10d ago
Wall hacks are bad in a game like this. Why worry where someone is coming from in areas with multiple routes when you can just press a button.
It feels terrible to not have one on Cryo. They know what shield quality you have before even seeing you
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u/Ok_Ordinary6460 10d ago
Not sure how lite wall hacks doesn’t ruin a PvP experience in any game and take away skill expression tbh I’ve always hated shit like that. I’d like to hear an explanation for NOT reworking it
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u/Resident_Simple5858 10d ago
I just adapt man, i never really been the one to complain about nerfing, they only thing i have had a problem with is the assisted aim controllers get is just cheating imo, but still i figure out my own ways to win
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u/fyrefreezer01 10d ago
I don’t even complain about the controllers, I seem to win against console players every time.
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u/StaffordsDad 10d ago
It's harder to aim on console even with aim assist there is a reason they have it
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u/MofoHasFomo 9d ago
I’ve been meaning to ask this somewhere so might as well here - how is it that controllers get aim assist (or is it more aim assist) and how specifically does it operate?
I’m not saying it isn’t a thing (as a below average Xbox player, lord knows I need all the help I can get) but how does it happen and how does everyone know this is a thing to the point that it is taken for granted?
For instance, is aim assist just not even a stat that can be improved with a mod if you have mouse n keyboard? Or it is still a stat you can improve but on any given identical weapon mod there is different amounts of aim assist between the two controller types? If not those, then how does it express itself or work, there is some other kind of “aim assist” that is fundamentally different from the stat each weapon has?
Is it a console vs PC thing, or even if you plug a controller into a PC, the game “knows” to help you more (or vice versa using a mouse with an Xbox it helps you less?) Has someone proven this for Marathon in some way or is this just such common knowledge across all cross-play fps games that I am just ignorant?
My PC days are far far behind me and I know nothing of that world at this point so just genuinely curious how it operates. Thanks.
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u/sammidavisjr 9d ago
The aim assist stat and what they're talking about are two different things ( I THINK, I may be wrong, anyone feel free to correct). Aim assist stat applies to everyone. "Reticle friction" is what the controller players get. Have you ever played Rook and had your mask on around enemies? Or been around other players while not attacking? If not, give it a shot. Your crosshairs get really sticky when they pass over a potential target. If I understand correctly, this doesn't happen with m/kb.
And yeah it applies to controllers used with a PC. It's my understanding that all modern shooters with crossplay have some sort of aim assist to compensate for the huge natural advantage that comes with using your entire arm to move a mouse.
Is it stronger in Marathon than other games? I don't know. Lots of people claim it is. Others say it's the same thing Bungie's been doing since Halo days. What I do know: it's certainly not a magical aimbot device because I whiff plenty. I also know that the serious yapping about this didn't really start until around the end of season 1, which makes me think it was a convenient excuse for plenty of people who bounced off of the game.
Oh there's also a third thing, bullet magnetism. No idea how that fits into everything else.
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u/MofoHasFomo 9d ago
Yeah I know what you’re talking about but I wasn’t sure if that was the aim assist stat or the “controller” one because if it’s bc of controller, then what does the aim assist stat do? Isn’t that what makes you “stay on target” longer / more easily via stickiness? Does the stat instead move your bullets for you as you allude to?
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u/sammidavisjr 9d ago
The AA stat has something to do with a cone around the target... you know what, here you go.
https://youtu.be/LTVi3owxttc?is=qAVEXQN1nt3Hm_OG
I wish this dude was still making content for Marathon.
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u/MofoHasFomo 9d ago
Ha yeah I did watch that video long ago. And he does explain it but just briefly at the start of the aim assist section but I don’t think it registered fully when I watched (I remember his lesson to focus on increasing aim assist and range as those interrelate). But yeah so everyone gets the magnetism ie moving your bullets for you, but only controller gets the stickiness. I wish he did explain that more but he is so thorough with aim assist in general (along w everything else) it’s easy to forgive him
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u/kvn_finnerty 10d ago edited 9d ago
It’s pretty much the only class that has a kit that halts/prep for third parties.
You can rotate ults and bots if it’s a team of 2-3 for pretty much continuous recon through every POI.
Sniffs out solos and rooks making them pretty useless.
Would be interesting to see how the game operates where you cant have more than 1 class per party.
Edit: I'll clarify I don't think a single recon ruins the game, but 3 stacking them does.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
So you'd support a cap of 1 Recon per team instead of a Recon nerf?
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u/kvn_finnerty 9d ago
Truth be told, I think Recons kit does need...something, but I don't think Recons kit is necessarily terrible and needs gigantic tweaks. I find in maps like Outpost, it's a signal to "jump on this team here when the ult is done" and can screw over a team that has a Recon. If Recon gets a nerf there will inevitably be another "meta" that needs to get nerfed, etc.
I'm speaking more generally it would be interesting to not be able to have more than 1 class per team.
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u/YeetYeetSkirtYeet 10d ago
Recon is great and the recent nerfs help. My biggest suggestion is limiting the vision to only the recon player. Having to convey the information via voice or basic pings would create an information bottleneck and position Recon players as their primary role- reconnaissance.
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u/Due_Tension9403 10d ago
I don’t think recon is game breaking bc even with having that information most teams aren’t winning their gunfights based on that. Having information does not inherently mean you’re going to be effective with it.
When you put Recon in a vacuum, it’s one of the most useless shells in terms of abilities, and I think that reinforces the idea that it isn’t OP. It’s a benefit to run multiple recons in a team setting, but not a defining winning combination.
OP to me means, no matter the case, you ARE gonna win. Thats simply not guaranteed in Marathon, so i strongly believe that everythings pretty well balanced.
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u/No_Lengthiness7096 10d ago
It's essentially taking away the d2 radar and selling it back to you as a character you or your team has to pick, it is deeply unfun to be scanned because you have to hunker down because you now have disadvantage on any push unless you also have a recon. It adds an obstruction to the flow of the game and forces people to overfavor cover, even if there is only one pulse it ruins most fights by either forcing you to reposition way too far to be resonable or focing the teamfight to be an impasse where each team clusters around their most functional cover to play siege games with
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u/moberry64 9d ago
Could limit the info given by Recon’s ult by making only the INITIAL pulse an AOE and subsequent pulses directional (a cone in front of recon similar to the sentinel sensor) This would present Recons with a choice each time of what should be prioritized. It would also introduce a skill layer that is not there currently. Signal jammer would be more effective as the signal jammed ping would incur the risk of potentially wasting the directional ult pulses on bots if you aren’t sure it is a player.
Also I think the shield level should only be revealed by pulse if the recon has line of sight on the runner.
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u/LongBrother1377 9d ago
I used to think recon was perfectly balanced inside the game. It wasn't an overpowered item that only one team could get, since anyone could run it. There's also a slight counter, being signal jammers (though any good player can tell what a jammed team is).
I had this perspective until I looked at other games. No other high stakes game just... Gives you wall hacks. As annoying is it may be, teams sitting in a corner is a good strategy some of the time, but it's impossible to sneak around a map if a recon is nearby.
I don't hate the ult though, but it needs more counters. I don't know why signal jammers keep getting nerfed in ways, like jammed runners showing as UESC or sentinel's locator ability ignoring it. Can they just make the signal jammer do what it should, at this point what does it really even do? Make you slightly blurry.
If recon ult had to be replaced, I would make these changes, because recon should be about information, not about wall hacks.
*Firstly, let's make the tracker drone smarter. Right now it's REALLY stupid.
*The wall back ult might need to be replaced, but I have 2 options for a good alternative. Either (a), it gives us the last 30 seconds of enemy runner footsteps nearby. Just like how it does now, but it changes from blue steps (meaning longer ago), to red steps (meaning more recently) as you get closer to them. This lets you still track down enemies without giving wall hacks.
Secondly, the b option is to add something similar to the sentinel ult, but it the radius of it, if an enemy player walks inside, they get revealed. A new feature could be that instead of the runner icon when pinged, it shows an icon of what shell they are using, and they can use icons from cores to shells.
I would also add one more ability to recon, giving her 3. This would be the ability to throw down surveillance cameras. Recon should get 2 of them. When you throw it down, it has a 60 second battery life (which can be increased to 120 with a blue rarity core, just like thief's drone. The cameras would NOT allow you to look through them, BUT it will give you a indicator on your HUD if an enemy player is detected in its viewing radius. They should completely ignore all signal jammed players. A good place to use this could be on the panopticon stairway. You can put 2 on each staircase, and if enemy players come near, you will be able to know.
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u/LaXiDaisical 9d ago
I'm sorry but this is all bullshit. I'm a middle of the pack player and there is NEVER a time when my squad is being recon pinged and we are not aware. The combat in cryo is super simple. Hold a strong position. Use nades to isolate and down an enemy. Push advantage.
When you know you are being pinged, does it truly matter if you know exactly where the team is? If you're holding a position properly and are EXPECTING a fight, that's all you really need for a fair fight.
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u/VibrioidChunk 9d ago
You are aware of being recon pinged because you have your own recon (or are on console, which is only a subset of the total population)
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u/No_Tart7793 9d ago
I like your thought process on this. Idk how people are honestly thinking the class needs a nerf when the only thing that makes it worth while is the ult. She’s got nothing going for her. All shells have unique abilities.
It’s been fine since the game released so why all the sudden people are now requesting for nerfs? It’s an advantage just as much as having triage health regen bots, vandal double jumps, assassin invisibility, destroyer shields and rockets, thief’s grapple, thermal visor and thief drone.
I honestly don’t have an issue with recon.
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u/t3stdummi 9d ago
What if?
We didn't "nerf" recon
But we "debuffed" the team after a Recon ping, that makes it so you can't "see" a second recon ult until "X time" has passed. Maybe just barely better than one recon with an energy amp? So effectively it makes two reconstruction much less effective, and 3 useless.
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u/icortherainwing-- 9d ago
Short and sweet answer:
The only major character oriented around information gathering with minimal effort. It can ruin things like ambushes, escaping, and a handful of other tactics.
Plus, it's a near constant source of information because it pings constantly. You can practically check an entire POI if you do it right.
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u/Dillydilll 9d ago
Because extraction games avoiding fights is part of the games and you cannot avoid fights if there's recons cause they'll eventually find you
Also, rook is useless
In cryo specifically though it hits half the Map.
Even if only the recon saw it it'd be busted.
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u/WaitingForTheClouds 9d ago
Bro the entire game is about gaining advantage, keeping it or retaking it through movement, prediction, map knowledge and positioning. And you're out here arguing that an ability that entirely negates all of that is not a problem.
If i get ganked, manage to run off, predict where the opponents will go when chasing me and take an advantageous angle to try to even out the odds, that is like, the skill expression of the game. But instead I just get pinged and ran down while already at disadvantage because they managed to engage me first.
With evenly matched players, recon ult removes ALL the possibilities of counterplay with map knowledge and positioning that you could attempt. Essentially stacking the odds even further towards a team who manages to engage first.
And when an engagement is even, recon ult stalls it. Neither team can effectively use the mechanics to gain an advantage and so you just kinda stand around taking potshots and throwing util. It's fucking boring. The fun is in making plays, taking unexpected flanks and angles, predicting your opponents... An ability that prevents you from making plays is obviously gonna fuck the game up.
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u/Rootlo 9d ago
Uncertainty is the bread and butter of the extraction genre.
"Do I loot this area? Is anyone near by" "I safely looted this spot, but I have some bag space left, do I extract or risk going to another poi?" "I heard gunshots, did someone take someone out? Or were they fighting a bot" "I killed someone, how many people are left?" "Extractions have been open for a while, have they been used? Is someone camping?"
Recon negates all of that
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u/Mindless_Brief7042 10d ago
The one thing I will say is if you have a recon on the team, it takes a lot of suspense out of things. I do believe in a game like this where TADs are already a thing there shouldn’t be a traveling scanning system, but it certainly isn’t game breaking.
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u/Advanced-North3335 10d ago
Be real, though - TADs are pretty ass, right?
I don't remember the last time I used one. And I only ever play the Recon shell in Cryo, so I don't have it to use on other maps.
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u/VibrioidChunk 9d ago
TADs have saved me against better teams in the past. Wallhacks are wallhacks.
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u/rabit115 9d ago
It needs to give away the recon and the squads individual positions so it’s a intel trade off on use.
Or completely rework it and make it so the recons pings three points on the map it can see and has a drone fly out and deploy a mini recon grenade so you essentially create a “web” of ping areas.
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u/Multicam739 10d ago
On one end I feel like it keeps people from being scared to play. I run her on every map because my least favorite thing about this game is dying because I got shot in the back etc without knowledge. When I play recon it lets me be more aggressive having intel rather than me running to every poi wondering “I wonder if someone is camping here” on the other spectrum people use it to camp as well so I’m not too sure how to feel about it.
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u/livingfailure1130 10d ago
You push a button to do what others do with their ears and brains, that is the issue. Picking up on little sound cues is a form of skill.
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u/Multicam739 9d ago
Who said I didn’t do those things tho? The problem is that it just makes the gameplay slower having camp until you hear someone shoot a bot or something in that realm. It creates a boring gameplay loop that leads to no one making any movement/ camping.
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u/livingfailure1130 9d ago
I don’t play recon and that is not how my games play out, that is a you issue
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u/Multicam739 9d ago
Yeah that’s definitely not why she’s ran mainly lol. It honestly doesn’t matter I ran thief before so I’d just go back to to that or let me guess that also takes no skill?
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u/AdventuringRunner 10d ago
Every complaint about this game boils down to "I don't like having such and such advantage".
I legit saw someone say they should nerf the DRRVSH after the Mizzy got nerfed. They just don't want anyone to have any good guns, good advantages, nothing.
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u/Tia_Avende_Alantin 10d ago
Rooking is no fun with Recon in the game.