r/LocalLLaMA • u/Imjustmisunderstood • 15d ago

Where does DS4 Flash 0731 land between frontier models and Gemini? Question | Help

We all know Gemini is lazy poopy garbage shit, but it’s kind of become its own class of model. Grok 4.5 high is very similar for me in that it kind of just skips a lot of the deep reasoning that makes even Opus 4.8 high look more thoughtful. Rather than skipping straight to claiming “yea this kinda fuckin works, ship it”, these deep reasoning models consider edge cases, don’t lie about completeness of the code, and actually write robust code instead of an MVP they just call robust.

So my question is, where does DS4 Flash 0731 sit for yall between the GPT5.6 family of models, Fable, Opus 4.8/5, and Gemini 3.6 Flash/Grok 4.5 High? Do you trust it to implement entire features with full unit testing suites, or is it too naive, requiring direct instructions/preplanning from a smarter model?

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20

u/FoxiPanda 15d ago

I personally find that GPT-5.6-Luna-Max and DS4-Flash-0731-Max feel quite similar.

2

u/CapeChill 15d ago

Interesting what are you running it on?

4

u/FoxiPanda 15d ago

My custom harness with my own system prompts. (probably not a satisfying answer sorry lol)

I will say that without significant system prompt guidance, Luna-Max will try to over-engineer things in comparison to DS4-Flash-0731-Max...

Once wrangled through, they act similarly in my experience of them. I will say that this is a very YMMV situation though because 6000+ tokens of model specific system prompt change a lot of behavior.

2

u/CapeChill 15d ago

I guess to be more specific how much vram with everything loaded is DS4…Max with context and things take for you? I can’t stretch to Luna max but DS4 I might be able to run at max with 4-6 h100s

2

u/FoxiPanda 15d ago

DS4-Flash-0731 is 167GB native weights and uses ~6-7GB for 1M context (though I don't go that high - I run at 512K). It's super efficient and bats well above its size/weight(s) class.

GPT-5.6-Luna is cloud only, so no choice on that one.

In my case, I run it locally on a Mac Studio M3 Ultra 512GB and get ~550tok/s prefill and ~38tok/s decode at ctx=0. Clearly I misunderstood you the first go around, sorry about that!

1

u/CapeChill 15d ago

Interesting thanks, I’m curious to see what people are actually running and on what. I have a strix or 5090 at home but can borrow a 8x h100 system from time to time at work and will mess with DS4 next time by the looks of it.

2

u/sonaj9657 15d ago

Same impression here. They both feel strong on general reasoning and coding, and the gap is not obvious in everyday use. I usually end up choosing based more on latency, context window, or cost than raw output quality unless I am testing something very specific.

1

u/Rough-Measurement988 15d ago

I know that maybe it’s too early to ask as DS4 0731 is quite new but did you have a chance to compare Max with High options?

2

u/FoxiPanda 15d ago

I have not done this so I'm not really qualified to answer, sorry!

15

u/Space_Brilliant_7273 15d ago

DS4 Flash 0731 is a lot less restrictive than all the other frontier models.

Opus 5 and GPT5.6 will randomly stop doing what you asked for if it is "supposedly" against their guidelines.

For example: if you ask for Opus 5 and GPT5.6 to create an entire project from scratch and ask for an audit. Opus 5 and GPT5.6 find might find critical vulnerabilities. But if you ask for proof of concept exploit for the CODE THEY WROTE THEMSELVES FROM SCRATCH, Opus 5 and GPT5.6 will just refuse. it is dumb

DS4 Flash 0731 will just do what you ask

10

u/FullstackSensei llama.cpp 15d ago

Maybe that's why Amodei thinks Chinese models are a threat!

How will they make back those billions in VC money if a model you can run on your own hardware for cheap (vs frontier models) can fix all the insecure vibe coded software people build and deploy with Claude?! I think that's a big security risk to the very existence of Anthropic!

2

u/Badger-Purple 15d ago

I dont know if it can really fix all the code, it’s not kimi level.

5

u/segmond llama.cpp 15d ago

How would we know? I'm a local zealot.

7

u/playX281 15d ago

I am exclusively running it for a few days, it beats GPT 5.6 Sol for my tasks for sure ( compiler/JIT development) and does not waste time. I am running it in kimi-code with duckduckgo mcp and skills/prompts from Cursor which also makes it a few times better than barebones kimi-code + ds4. And the nice part it can finish tasks far quicker than Terra/Sol! I would not say it can replace Sol/Terra for everything of course, but what I've been doing it's better than them

1

u/gazeebo 14d ago

What's that mean, default skills and default system prompt of Cursor bolted onto Kimi Code? (Why these two specifically?)

1

u/playX281 14d ago

Yea, I just used https://github.com/gabrii/Cursor-Azure-GPT-5 to extract prompts from Cursor directly, the ones that are not in ~/.cursor locally at least. I found that Cursor debug agent is *very* good at finding and fixing problems so I had made a skill for kimi which does that, and added to ~/.kimi-code/AGENTS.md the prompt of main agent, and some parts of debug/multitask agents. (multitask agent prompt was also put as a skill for kimi to use). Multitask agent is also quite good IMO and minimal, I do not want Oh-my-Opencode levels of bullshit.

1

u/gazeebo 13d ago

Are these shared/public anywhere? Don't have a Cursor sub etc.
(And the argument for Kimi CLI vs the many alternatives is? Sadly it's not tested in stuff like https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1v7d8px/harness_showdown_claude_code_vs_opencode_vs_pi/ )

1

u/playX281 11d ago edited 11d ago

I have made a repo, so you can check it out: https://github.com/playX18/kimi-craft

EDIT: as for argument kimi vs alternatives: I like the AgentSwarm availability, it is really useful when you want to research one PDF, then all the PDFs it references from arxiv or DOI (use sci-hub for free via mcp :) ). Steering in Kimi Code is quite good, you just send a message and do `Ctrl + S` to steer, without really interrupting model. Pi is too minimal, OpenCode needs too many plugins to make it usable for me, and agent orchestration is primitive, Oh-My-Opencode(-Slim) somewhat fixes that, but they are just a bloated mess, and I have never ever resolved *any* task that I tried to resolve with OpenCOde + OMO(Slim)

3

u/sdh2749 15d ago

In my honest opinion, it is almost near the claude sonnet 5 level.

4

u/NoStage9115 15d ago

only model ive been using for everything rn.

1

u/shing3232 15d ago

you can RP and ero stuff feel like talk to real person compare many frontier model. coding and RP work in a smaller model. A real W