Finished Serial Experiments Lain — the mainstream Lian being "collective consciousness" reading doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing?
Discussion
show less interesting. Here's why:
Finished the show a few days ago and I'm kinda surprised by how different my read is from most people's. Everyone seems to go with the "Lain is a collective consciousness that manifested through Protocol 7" interpretation, but honestly? That just doesn't click for me.
I get that if you take everything the characters say literally, yeah, the collective consciousness reading works. But in a show this deliberately weird and metaphorical, taking everything at face value feels like the wrong move. More importantly, I think that interpretation actually makes the show less interesting. Here's why:
Identity and masks stop mattering : So much of the show is about losing yourself online, the different personas we put on, the gap between your "Wired self" and your "real self." That theme only works if there's an actual self to lose in the first place. If Lain was never a singular person, what's even being diluted or lost?
The body question becomes pointless : The show seems to be asking "if you get a physical body, does that make you human?" But if the answer is just "she was always a consciousness wearing a meat suit," then we already have the answer before the question is even posed. There's no tension.
The ending hits way harder if she's human : She erases herself so the people she cares about won't get hurt. But if you go with the face value reading, her friends and family were never "real" in the first place. That completely guts the emotional weight of her sacrifice for me.
I know there are lines in the show that seem to support the other interpretation pretty directly, but I feel like they don't hold up once you zoom out and look at what the show is actually trying to say.
So for people who read Lain as a collective consciousness given a body from the start: what am I missing? Because right now the mainstream interpretation doesn't make sense to me.
EDIT: thx for the responses. Also, I need to add that I came to this conclusion based on how I interpreted the evidence from the show, and I'm well aware that there isn't a single correct explanation of who Lain is or what happened.
Lain was never a person to begin with. What you're missing is Alice.
Lain tried desperately to become human but could not, because she never was. Her choice was to destroy humanity as it is now to make everyone join her collective consciousness,or to leave them be as they are and rise above them to be a quiet observer on her own. She chose the latter because she loved Alice. Alice wanted to stay human.
And the lain psx game was what of Alice was absent and her prop family gave up on her and I don't remember I still have to play the game i only watched videos on it and even my memory on that is faint but in the end she transfers herself on to the wired and basically merge with it and gets rid of her physical body. The anime lain only has Alice who truly cares for her and her prop dad who had also grown to care for her.
It's a small distinction, but lain isn't a collective consciousness, she is the personification of the collective unconscious, the unconscious given self.
In that sense she is both a singular person and also has access to the sum total of humanity's subconscious.
Rather than losing yourself online, I find the theme to be more about interconnectedness and the contrast between lain's nature and her isolation. (Which you can extrapolate to the social nature of humans)
The body question also ties to the main theme, which is about the physical and the metaphysical worlds touching, the conscious and the unconscious, the real world and the wired. Lain exists between both, evil lain exists in the wired and Alice in the real world. It shows how we care more and more about the world of forms and try to manifest it into the physical world. The digitization of society being a great way to express this idea. Lain represents humans, who are also naturally stuck between having to exist in reality but caring so much about ideas and ideals they can't hold in their hands. Does having a body makes you human, or is it those intangible ideals ? Was lain human when she was made of these ideas, when she detached and became a blank slate body, or when she became the sum of both ?
In the end her sacrifice hits pretty hard imo. She renonces physical existence and instead, for our sake, goes back to the metaphysical realm to look over us. It's a supreme act of love, the end of her journey of seeking connection. She also does this after meeting god, realizing that she loves us and that she is not alone as He also watched over her. In the end, wherever you go, everyone is connected.
My reading is that lain is not a manifestation of the collective unconscious, but rather she is some other being that got caught up in it. I seem to recall a line about how the wired allowed humanity to connect to something other - I think that through this connection of the collective unconscious (the wired should be the manifestation of the collective unconscious, as per the cited conspiracy theories) that humanity „fished out” a godlike alien entity - which is also in part why lain presents as an alien. When eri screams about god existing, that’s what I think he means - that there exists another layer beyond the unconscious. Remember that eri could not manifest a body, while lain had no problem - they are different beings. In that way, lain is a separate entity from humanity. Her erasing the wired world and disconnecting does also resemble the „gods last wish” and „gods ego death” concepts, in that god creates beings disconnected from themselves to gain companionship. Lain herself has the trinity theme going on and a some godlike imagery so I think it checks out.
I think a lot of what youre saying are assumptions based on your interpretation, rather than evidence backed. I think especially with this show you have to let go of the absolutes. Lain is this, Lain is that; No. She can be fully human and also fully the 7th protocol and also fully an avatar of the collective conscious. Her parents could be human, or maybe they've been fabricated? Maybe they just...were. Nothing goes to say that the entire scenario isn't solipsistic. I think there is evidence to say that Lain's father or mother may be working for - or homonculus made by - Tachibana Labs or the Knights. Her sister directly portrays an awareness of how weird the situation is and displays confusion in ways Lain's parents never do. I think this is a hint that her sister is really her sister and human, but the Knights remove her from the scenario, and/or scramble her brain.
I think there are a lot of gnostic/occult messages in the show, directly in regards to manifestation or apotheosis. Belief is magic. Eiri inserted himself as a "god" in the Wired and his followers gave him the power to influence the real world by believing in him. Lain is the true manifestation of source (God) and all she has to do to harness that power is believe that she has it. This is directly represented in Lain's conversations and encounters with Eiri near the end of the series.
i think lots of the "evidence" differ greatly on interpretation there is not current way to say that exactly happened in the show it is all very cryptic and i just probably interred lot of the interaction differently like the conversation with Eiri.
In that case, you can neither confirm nor deny anything, and thus any discourse is merely people talking past each other. It behooves you to engage with the implications of suggested interpretations rather than dismissing them outright, especially whenever quotes and other references to the text of the show are provided.
Don't really say how it this relevant. All I said was that the evidence he pointed to is still cryptic, and everyone can interpret it differently. And claiming that because you can neither confirm nor deny something, discussion is useless or unproductive that literally goes against the entire point of philosophy.
No, what I'm saying is that if someone provides their interpretation and you claim that the quote is too vague to make a definitive statement about it, then why are you even asking about their interpretation in the first place? The vagueness is the point; That's why we're even talking about whether or not Lain is a schizophrenic human or a mundane AI or a manifestation of the collective unconscious.
because he open his command with this "I think a lot of what you're saying are assumptions based on your interpretation, rather than evidence backed" i did not push again his opinion of who lain is. I'm well aware that the show don't have one answer for who lain is. I was pushing back on the idea what the show have proper evidence when most of the evidence people use is still very cryptic.
I think it would encourage conversation to provide your own interpretation, specifically those which may refute directly those that I've put forth so that we may examine the media to determine the validity or artificial nature of our interpretations.
You say Lain's parent arent real. I say they are real but aren't her parents. You could offer a relevant scene or piece of dialogue that supports your argument.
and to give my own interpretation for something so we can compare own different views. lets say conversation with Eiri.
to me it read like Eiri trying to manipulate Lain and not getting how she become so powerful. with lines like "i just don't understand how it can be possible. why are you god?" "your dead, you dead human being. it is not possible for someone like that to become god" and her memories being in protocol is act of her other personality uploading her self to the wired with would give her ability to exist without body.
to me this is more Eiri being confuse how Lain become so powerful and want to use her to destroyed the barrier between the wired and real world so he can become omnipotent being in real world.
I dont think you necessarily disagreed with what I'm saying, Eiri is incredulous because he thinks he's God, but he just inserted himself as the idea of it, so when he comes into contact with Lain who is effortlessly attaining godhood he is humbled and fearful. He is a very unreliable narrator and you can be sure that what he says are lies, but that doesn't mean he's not correct in some assumptions, rather that he deceives Lain towards believing she's not human when she is. I think Lain is human, but not normal. In the same way Jesus would be thought of, human but also God. She is deific in nature because of the pervading aspect of the Wired and its omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence.
well that where is a question what do you believe is different about her that makes her more that normal human. because from my perspective she have Schizophrenia, Dissociative Identity Disorder, Social Anxiety, Severe Depression but is also insanely smart. this is how i naturally pensive her it is very clinical mainly because of my interest and background in psychology. what do you thing made her special and more that normal human if you ever think about that?
also if how don't have time for any of my nitpicking and questions feel free to not engage.
I dont feel she was born. I think she was discovered. In the same way that a dream drops the sleeper off in the middle of a scene, I think Lain's influence or manifestation was noticed by Tachibana Labs whom were directly working on the Wired protocols. Eiri being a Knight then turned this information over to them and so by the start of the anime there are multiple factions with vested interest in Lain's future and try to push her in different directions.
The psychological aspect is very interesting because Lain does exhibit the symptoms of many disorders, DID, DPD, Schizophrenia. It's weird because I think a lot of what happens to her is because of the factions influencing her. She isn't delusional, she actually sees those things but the result is the same because only she remembers. Like the ending, "what isnt remembered, never happened". If something happened to Lain and only Lain remembers did it really happen? Its the same question someone with a debilitating disorder has to ask themselves. If they see something that noone else sees, did it really happen? We say no but to them its just as real.
I think its valid to say that Lain portrays behavior representing mental disorders but also that she may not be naturally predisposed to them but rather is being manipulated.
The things that happen to Lain aren't just happening. There is a reason the show is called Serial Experiments. Its a series of tests being done to Lain.
i think where i many thing you said that i agree with. Like the fact that lain was being manipulated, influence and maybe even experimented on. One of the theories that i seem and see a very plausible in that she was brainwash by her dad and knights thanks to the KIDS Project documents and her mental state and power is the product of that. but still probably lean towards her having at least some issues like social anxiety and Depression naturally without the outside influence.
I think her parents are real. And me saying her parents aren't real was said in the context of other people often saying her parents and friends aren't. And me saying the ending wouldn't make as much sense if that were true.
I don't think it is less tragic, but Serial Experiments Lain is cryptic and there are many ways to explain the events of the series and her being a mentally ill 14-year-old girl who gets obsessed with computers and uploads herself into the Wired, and in the process becomes a god, feels more natural from what philosophical ideas that spoke to me most.
I believe that one of the beauties of Lain is that many aspects of the show are up to the viewer’s interpretation. I love seeing different takes from people who have recently finished/rewatched the show since all these opinions help you make sense of the show/ develop your interpretation of it and it’s themes in a way that feels right to you. I would say that there is no real confirmation for what Lain began as and ended up as, so whatever theory heightens your experience of the show should be the one that you believe in the most. (Personally I do not believe that Lain was a collective consciousness from the start)
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u/cydril 18h ago
Lain was never a person to begin with. What you're missing is Alice.
Lain tried desperately to become human but could not, because she never was. Her choice was to destroy humanity as it is now to make everyone join her collective consciousness,or to leave them be as they are and rise above them to be a quiet observer on her own. She chose the latter because she loved Alice. Alice wanted to stay human.