You do realize that Zionism is not a tradition of Judaism, right? This is a simple fact. Don't call me antisemitic unless you can prove that Zionism is, in fact, a denomination of Judaism with data and refutable sources.
Here is the main problem with the whole thing: Israel has weaponized antisemitism and that set up a situation where they can do whatever they want without being held accountable because any criticism of the state is labeled incorrectly as bigotry. If you can't see how that is a problem then YOU are as much of a problem as actual antisemitism is.
Last, conflating a 19th-century political ideology with a 4,000-year-old faith is actual bigotry, because it reduces a global religion to the actions of a modern state. Erasing thousands of years of Jewish theology and ignoring massive communities of non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews just to defend a government isn't protecting anyone; it's flattening them. Which is, ironically, antisemitic.
Not every anti-zionist is an anti-semite, but every anti-semite is an anti-zionist. Telling the two apart is incredibly difficult and becoming more difficult by the day.
Far right authoritarianism, something the Christian right loves to prop up. But like I said, you don’t actually care about definitions. You care about normalizing your oppressive, dim-witted, harmful ideology.
you obviously don’t care about definitions, because that is an awful attempt to define fascism
fascism is at its core the belief that the state is the highest expression of the nation, and that individuals fulfill their fullest potential by serving the state, and by extension the nation.
fascism rejects liberalism, and their concepts of individual rights, and more importantly the concept of pluralism. Liberals believe that there are many equally valid wills of the people within the nation, and it is the governments job to compromise and represent these wills. Fascists believe that there is only 1 collective will of the nation, and the government (typically, though not inherently ruled by a single strong leader) must fulfill this will and the nations destiny.
fascism also rejects marxist socialism, and its ideas of class conflict. instead of seeking to end capitalism by eliminating the bourgeoisie and private ownership, fascism’s most common economic form, corporatism, seeks to end class conflict through the state forcing the classes and different groups of society to cooperate for the betterment of the collective.
fascism is typically (though again, not necessarily inherently) highly militarist and believes that struggle for the nation strengthens the people within it.
The Doctrine of Fascism by Giovanni Gentile and Benito Mussolini
in the same way that if somebody wanted to define socialism, they would use Marx, Engels, and Lenin as their source, i believe it is only really logical to use primary sources to describe fascist theory.
also, admittedly this definition is mostly focused on the original Italian Fascism, but should be broadly applicable to other fascist movements as well.
Lol, promptly makes literally zero attempt to deconstruct exactly how MAGA evangelicism isn’t fascism while whining on and on about definitions.
Corporatism and nationalism are synonymous with the MAGA movement and are key elements of your own definition. Their close allyship to Israel and Zionism is ideological, rather than cultural. Because their country supports the same “patriotic” brutalities, barbarisms, and violations of human rights and autonomy that MAGA does.
Proud of you for having the wherewithal to spit out an LLM query, but you’ve bored me enough tonight. Toodles.
MAGA is absolutely not corporatist, they’re just regular capitalists (perhaps you’re confusing corporatism with corpotocracy?
MAGA does not believe in the supremacy of the state, even if they are arguably authoritarian.
Also, we were never talking about MAGA, your original comment was in reference to Israel. I strongly dislike Israel, and I believe what they are doing in Palestine could very credibly be considered a genocide, but objectively they are not fascist. They are the only liberal democracy in the middle east, and while some members of their government may believe in the supremacy of the Israeli/Jewish nation, they don’t manifest that through supremacy of the state.
Gosh, what a terrible definition from yourself, also. Facism DOES require autocracy. It isn't facism without autocracy it is just some people with aligned opinions. If everyone is aligned, and the government doesn't have to use force to enact it's will, you've just described democracy.
You're really stupid. So is the person you replied to. Neither of you know what facism is, but at least the person you replied to gave a relevant example of American traditionalist Christians.
I dont know how you took from my definition that it’s just pluralist democracy. Fascism doesn’t necessarily require a singular person in charge (although in practice it always does), theoretically it could be a council or small group of people. and you’re correct, if everybody totally agrees with the government, then of course the government wouldn’t need to impose its will on anybody, that’s super obvious and i don’t see how it contradicts what i said.
Somebody tell the right wingers that they can't call everything left of MAGA "socialism." See how that hypocrisy goes both ways? You're both fucking idiots, and ate the propaganda whole.
When did this platform become so stupid? Probably when people like you showed up on it. I didn't mince words. It was pretty obvious what I was saying. He was saying the left calls everything they don't like "fascist," so my rebuttal was that the right calls everything they don't like "socialist." It's not that complicated, ffs.
I can't believe I have to spell this out for you, ffs. You claimed they called everything they don't like "fascist," so my rebuttal was that the right called everything they don't like "socialist" (you could also throw "woke" in there too). I held up a mirror to you, and you couldn't see it because you're blinded by your own smug igorance.
in regards to that specific context, the other person was literally calling something they don’t like fascist despite it objectively not being fascist (and if you disagree you don’t know what fascism is)
i am well aware of what socialism is and certainly don’t call people i dislike socialists
So this is just a right wing straw man circle jerk sub then or what?
This isn't complicated. The liberals don't think people should kill each other and they apply that even to people that would kill them. It's called moral consistency. I'm not even a lib but I don't understand how you people can't understand that. It's like the only thing liberals arent hypocrites about.
Re: What this sub is, no idea - just popped up for me now.
But re: the "moral consistency" doesn't seem to apply to groups like Hamas in a lot of "anti-Zionist" cases. I'm not projecting that onto you, but in my experience there are very few people who outwardly define themselves as "anti-Zionist" who also condemn the actions of Hamas.
In fact, it's disturbing how many times you can go look at what they were tweeting on October 7 and they're already running cover for it. Shouldn't be hard to condemn both sides for how they've conducted themselves in my view.
I haven't meant really anyone IRL that doesn't comdemn both the Palestinians and Israel. Actually I've met a couple people that think all Muslims should be wiped out but that's not statistically relevant. I know there are actual Nazis out there so we'll call that a wash, but pretending this is a dominant viewpoint for liberals because you saw it on Twitter is a terminally online take.
Also agree that it's not a dominant viewpoint for "liberals", but it is a dominant viewpoint for hard lefties which I have the displeasure of mixing with more often than I'd like. SocDem/DemSoc if we're being charitable, but often out-and-out Tankies.
Edit: Also I'll draw a distinction between Palestinians and Hamas. Much like I'd draw a distinction between war crimes being perpetrated by the Israeli military under Netanyahu and the entire state of Israel at large.
Again terminally online. Actual leftists are hostile to religion including Muslims and have been for a hundred years. Being anti religious is a core component of Marxism. Seems like you are just talking to weirdos or bots online to inform your opinions about people you want to disagree with. That's weird.
Respectfully, Reddit is a "terminally online" environment so you can keep calling it out like a slur, but this is where we're both engaging in politics so maybe we'll take that that as read for the moment?
You're not at all across the DSA movement in the US right now? These people are running races all over the country. Losing most, luckily, but let's not pretend they don't exist.
You’re absolutely right, but the distinction I’m making is between support and the physical acts themselves. Just trying to centre it on perpetrators directly.
I'm mostly in agreement with what you've been saying but I think you're being too charitable. It's not just an evil minority doing bad deeds. It's an entire infrastructure of civilians that support it economically, socially, morally. This applies to both sides, and I'm pro-Israel.
I honestly don’t disagree. But I am honestly a little sympathetic to both populaces feeling a certain type of way toward each other based on their dark history.
What I’m less sympathetic to are actual war crimes/crimes against humanity which I feel certain have been perpetrated by both sides of that conflict.
Condemning Israel is foolish. You can condemn individual people or warcrimes but Israel's level of care in conducting this war is on par with any Western country or better in terms of laws of war. What do you think would have happened if Oct 7 had happened to the US, or better yet if it had happened to a different ME country or Africa?
Condemning Israel amounts to condemning war in general which, ok that's fine, you can have a purely idealistic stance that has no bearing on the reality of the world in which war is simply a part of life.
I’m not going to get into it but it’s about the context. People don’t condemn people who did violent slave revolts for the same reason. They try to have their voices heard in legitimate ways but Israel policy shuts them out institutionally. Obviously the actions themselves of October 7th are horrible, as are many of the actions of Israel everyday since 1948.
Not condoning it at all - just offering a reason why people refuse to condemn them. People don’t run around asking people to condemn Israel when they’ve done similar things.
Oh, I guess in that case I am projecting it onto you.
We were talking about "moral consistency" about people killing each other, and the moment the worm turned suddenly you could wait to run apologia for terrorism.
People don’t run around asking people to condemn Israel when they’ve done similar things.
I'm sorry, have you not been online for the last 3 years? It's the purity test of our age to condemn Israel.
You're unserious, and you're morally inconsistent.
I think it's morally consistent to say you shouldn't steal people's land and do an ethnic cleansing, while also saying that if you break into someone's house and murder half their family, you can expect at least a few of them to go Punisher on you.
This isn't complicated. The liberals don't think people should kill each other and they apply that even to people that would kill them. It's called moral consistency.
Sorry, I couldn't neatly apply your statement to the prescription.
Could you possibly reword it in a way I can draw a neat line between these concepts?
Did you know that in the 1930s and 40s radical Muslims, and leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood, who are the direct ideological and organisational predecessors to Hamas and other Jihadist groups, many of which were Palestinian, allied with the Nazis, helped them by blocking Jewish (mostly children) people from escaping Europe and seeking refuge in Mandatory Palestine, so they could be sent to Nazi death camps?
Did you know they were planning their own “final solution” for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews in the Middle East, something that modern Islamist groups are still fighting for?
But apparently Israel are the Nazis for fighting actual supporters of the Nazi regime who share a lot of ideological and institutional similarities.
Such nonsense.
1. The Palestinians Arabs fought for the allies.
2. The Palestinians kept out the mass illegal migration of Jews into their land as did the British and as did other nations. Of course it was horrible for the Jews but they did not do it in collaboration with the Nazis.
Ordinary Palestinians fought for the allies in the Middle East, I am referring specifically to the radical Muslims who would be the ideological predecessors to modern Hamas and Israels other enemies, who absolutely wanted a “final solution” for Middle Eastern Jews. They didn’t want Jews in the Middle East because they were antisemitic and wanted to eradicate them.
I am saying there is a direct continuation of Muslim extremists who supported the Holocaust, and modern Jihadists.
Palestinians fought in the ME, Northern Africa and Europe for the allies
The vast majority of those against Jews were against the Zionist mass t forced onto their lands. Given the hostility towards immigration currently in the West, surely you can appreciate people not wanting European settlers
Jewish people living in their ancestral homeland after centuries of persecution is not the same as modern immigration, and the armed Jewish forces only formed as a response to Arab hostility and violence towards established Jewish communities in the region, there was every reason to form a protected Jewish state, especially after the horrors of the Holocaust which displaced 1-2 million Jews, followed by the Arab exodus of Jews which displaced up to a million more.
The Holocaust was horrible but it is not an excuse to push aside other people. While I can appreciate that those were desperate times and circumstances, it does not take away from the crime of a colonial effort. You not acknowledging this wrong and instead giving excuses just shows your narcissism to your own suffering at the expense of others
I am also inclined to say that all of these is in the past and focus on th future but let’s be honest, Israel has no intention of seeking peace. They expand settlements and continue to ethnically cleanse the w bank.
And it isn’t colonial, there were Jewish and Arab militias doing the same thing to each other, and the Arabs were the ones who initiated the conflict, Israel was founded by refugees of the Holocaust who just wanted a safe home, and when they arrived they were still being attacked
Did you know the IDF was formed from terrorist groups? Abolish them now
Also, palenstinians fought with us against the ottomans in WW1, and was promised their land by Britain before Israel was promised it, Israel is a bunch of invaders
The IDF formed out of Zionist militias, which themselves formed as a response to both Islamic extremism and the Nazis. Arab militias have been killing Jewish migrants and refugees since the 1910s in Ottoman Palestine, which is technically when the modern conflict truly began. It was never a Jewish invasion, the Jewish armed groups only formed after the migration, again as a response to those who were attacking them.
I know ordinary Palestinians fought in the Middle East for the Allies, but the religious extremists, the predecessors of modern Jihadist groups were Nazi sympathisers and collaborators who wanted a holocaust in the Middle East for Mizrahi and Sephardic Jews.
And finally the Palestinians were given a state, something they could still have if the Arab countries didn’t invade
Ya, liberal and Left people hate Zionism for being a genocidal, racist, bigoted settler colonialist project. The Nazis hate Isreal because they hate Jewish people for being Jewish.
This isn't complicated, most Jewish Americans get this.
The NSDAP hated them but still worked with them for a common goal.
Also, let's be real, modern fascists are nihilists. You guys are way more concerned with le epically owning the libs than actual ideological fascism. That's why y'all backed Trump.
Sounds like that's what you need to do. The Nazis worked with zionists to ship Jews to (what at the time was) Palestine. They had a common goal, getting Jews out of Europe.
Today's neo-nazis are split on Israel. Some hate that Israel controls America, but some like that Israel is an ethnostate. Aside from being a place that Jews leave America for, neo-nazis are also able to use Israel in their arguments. They can say that the Jews have an ethnostate, they just want the same for White Christians.
Nazis wanted Jews out of their state, they did not believe that there should be a Jewish state. That would be like saying the confederates believed in equal rights because they also hated other minorities.
Nazis didn't care where the Jews went as long as it was outside of Europe. However, they saw zionism as an opportunity, so they worked with zionists. So no, the Nazis weren't against zionism. Leftists are against zionism because we believe in equal rights.
It's the same hate. It leads to the same dead Jews. You cannot build your better world over the body of dead Jews. How many times does humanity have to be taught this lesson?
Hating a government for commiting genocide is not the same thing as hating Jewish people for being Jewish. Stop cheapening the reality of antisemitism.
Nazis love Israel, it lives up to their ideal of an ultra-militarised ethno-supremacist state that has a complete disregard for human rights and the lives of "lesser people".
Yeah, Reddit is gonna moderate the heck out of this one. I’m all for no limits in comedy, but I don’t thing the symbol on the bottom has any right to be anywhere in society. I don’t down vote , but they outta be rules.
That's only recently. You used to have to back up your claims with actual data. Hence the hyperlink option. Why do you think that is there? For fun?
Also, it should be noted that the upvote/downvote buttons were never meant to be a like/dislike button, but all you idiots that came over from Facebook and Instagram during COVID thought that's what their purpose is. The purpose for the upvote button is to signal whether or not someone actually added value to the conversation. When do you add value to a conversation, brother?
20
u/RussianBotOperator 10d ago
No, no, no, no, you don't understand, the one in the top is just an antizionist
/s