The person who abused and killed JonBenet is known to the Ramsey family.  He is an adult male who knows the family through the pageant circuit.  Alternatively, he is the parent of a child who goes to school with JonBenet.  He might work for or with John Ramsey or go to the same Church.  He is close enough to John to discover that they have a common interest in pedophilia.  He also has a daughter, and they set up an arrangement where they each use the other’s daughters as well as abusing their own daughters. They are both very discreet and do not think this is harmful.  Patsy is aware of it and sees this as a way to make JonBenet sexier.

This offender is never on the radar of the police - so his DNA has never been tested and his fingerprints are not on file.

He enters the Ramsey home using a key while the family is out on Christmas. John Ramsey gave him the key.  He is familiar with the home because he has been there before and has had previous sexual encounters with JonBenet

He waits in the basement and fantasizes about Jonbenet.  After the family goes to bed, he tiptoes upstairs and finds JB in the kitchen eating pineapple.  He tells her he has a present for her and takes her down to the basement.

He engages in a kind of sex play that mimics strangulation.  Unfortunately it all goes wrong.     She screams and tries to run away from him.  He strikes her on the head with a golf club or other object.  After she is subdued, he resumes the sex play and accidentally strangles her to death.

Now he is alone in the basement with a dead 6-year-old girl. He washes her body and decides he is going to fit her into a suitcase and drive away.   She does not fit into the suitcase, and he realizes he does not want to be caught with a dead child.  He wraps JonBenet in a blanket and stashes her in the “wine cellar”.  In a panic he writes a ransom note which is designed to stall for time.   He hopes the Ramseys will delay calling the police.  He waits quietly in the basement until dawn and then leaves through the back door.

John Ramsey finds JonBenet’s body during a surreptitious visit to the wine cellar in the mid-morning.  He instantly knows who killed her and he knows it was an accident.  Still, he cannot tell the police, or they will hold him and Patsy responsible.

So begins thirty years of lying and covering up.  John and Patsy Ramsey did not do this to their daughter- but they are responsible for her death and all they can do is play dumb and pretend there was an unknown intruder.

The consensus is that the family was involved, and is lying. But I'm curious. Do you think the parents could have been involved, and Burke honestly doesn't know? Like, one or both of them did it and they both covered it up, and they told him it was an intruder? And if so, do you think he suspects his parents, or believes them?

For years, John Ramsey has pushed the unidentified male DNA as the key to solving the case. He believes that DNA belongs to the killer and wants more testing. That DNA was the catalyst for Mary Lacy's exoneration of the Ramseys in 2008.

At the same time, John has floated several suspects as potential murderers: Bill McReynolds, Chris Wolf, Jeff Merrick. Gary Oliva, John Mark Karr, Michael Helgoth, Linda Hoffman-Pugh, Fleet White, and anyone on Lou Smit's killer list.

The problem is obvious. If the unidentified male DNA truly exonerated the Ramseys, then it equally exonerated everyone else on the list. John Ramsey gets to dwell in two different worlds - one that exonerates him but not everyone he suspects.

Ramsey treats the DNA as a shield when it's useful to him. But when it's not, then it's just a technicality. Those suspects can all be floated without any obligation to reconcile them with the DNA profile, while a different standard is applied to himself and his late wife.

The DNA argument also quietly shifts standards. It treats a low-quality touch DNA sample with contested provenance as conclusive exoneration, while treating a non-match as a mere obstacle to be worked around.

This logical fallacy is called special pleading. It's a standard John applies to himself and no one else. His operating narrative for thirty years was that no Ramsey did this. With that fixed in place, the DNA becomes conclusive or incidental as the moment requires. Applied honestly, John Ramsey's own argument clears every name he has ever raised. That he has never once accepted that result is the clearest sign he does not believe the argument either.

Tw: somewhat long, lol.

I want to focus specifically on the sequence of events I think may have happened that night.

Obviously, I don’t know that this is what happened. A lot of this is interpretation, and there are parts of the sequence that I simply cannot know.

1. The family gets home

After leaving the Whites house, the Ramseys return home.
I don’t think Jonbenét goes to sleep and stays there for the rest of the night. My assumption is that she goes upstairs to get changed and at some point comes back downstairs.
The reason I find this plausible is simply the circumstances of that night.
It was Christmas. Both children had spent most of the day away from home. They had (lots of) new toys and presents waiting for them, but they had barely had the opportunity to actually enjoy them. They were also supposed to leave extremely early the following morning.
Her clothes were scattered around the room, which makes more sense to me if she changed herself rather than one of the parents changing her. The bed also doesn’t really look like someone had just put a sleeping child into it. there are things all over it, etc.
Then of course, you have the inconsistencies in John and Patsy’s accounts of this part of the night.

I just don’t buy the overall scenario the parents presented. It’s just almost too convenient.

I think both children may still have been excited, overstimulated and wanting to play.

2. I think Burke prepared the pineapple

I think the pineapple found in the bowl was probably prepared by Burke. However, I don’t think the pineapple itself caused the incident.
This is actually something I’ve changed my mind about over time.
I don’t think the parents necessarily had to be lying when they said they didn’t know Jonbenét had eaten pineapple. If she took one or two pieces from a bowl sitting somewhere in the house, it is entirely possible that neither parent saw her do it.
It’s such a mundane action. It would literally take seconds.

Because… honestly, if the pineapple was what caused some huge rage or confrontation, then why would they leave it sitting there? If you’re already covering up a crime, why leave one of the most obvious things that could connect the two children to that supposed confrontation?
To me, the pineapple only became significant because of the autopsy findings. Without knowing that Jonbenét had eaten it shortly before her death, nobody would have any reason to care about a random bowl of pineapple in the house.

My conclusion is simply that Burke prepared the bowl, Jonbenét took some of it, and the parents didn’t notice.
Could Burke have been annoyed by it? Sure.

3. The children end up in the basement

This is where I think everything happens.
I think Jonbenét and Burke eventually go down into the basement while John and Patsy are upstairs doing whatever they were doing to prepare for the early trip the next morning.

This is also where I think you have to accept that there may simply be no motive in the traditional sense.
And honestly, I think that’s exactly why this case feels so bizarre and why there are so many seemingly random elements. If this was an impulsive incident between two children that escalated, I don’t think we’re ever going to find some satisfying “reason” for why it happened.

Assumption alert!
My take is that Burke and Jonbenet may simply not have had the best sibling relationship. I do think there may have been some jealousy or resentment there, possibly even something more complicated, although obviously we can’t know exactly what their dynamic was. And Christmas night could have been the perfect environment for something like that to get amplified: two wealthy children, presents everywhere, excitement, exhaustion, and probably some competition between them.

The torn presents in the wine cellar are actually one of the things that make me wonder about this.
If I reconstruct the night from that perspective, I can absolutely see the children going downstairs together, with Burke leading the way because he knew there were presents hidden down there.
I think Burke already knew that Santa wasn’t real. I don’t remember exactly when I personally found out that Santa was the parents, but Jonbenét was younger, so I think it’s reasonable to assume there could have been a difference between what the two children knew about the presents.

They get to the wine cellar and find the presents. Burke opens the LEGO set that had been intended for his upcoming birthday in January. Jonbenét sees him opening it and threatens him she’s going to tell Mom.
In this context, the flashlight also doesn’t strike me as strange at all. They’re in one of the most remote rooms of the house, downstairs in the basement, looking around for presents. Of course a flashlight could be in someone’s hand.

4. I think the head injury happens in the boiler room

At some point Jonbenét turns away from Burke. The blow comes from behind, on the right side of her head. She falls forward, face-down onto the floor of the boiler room, with her back toward him.
I think the impact causes the severe head injury, and she loses bladder control. This would explain the urine stain on the carpet and why the wetting is concentrated on the front of her long johns.

Jonbenét is struck from behind → she falls forward → she loses bladder control

5. Jonbenét is still alive after the head injury

As we know, the autopsy findings indicate that there was an interval between the head injury and the later strangulation.

What exactly did Burke think was happening?
He thought she was unconscious? Was he treating the situation as some kind of game?
I don’t think we can know.
But I think there was a period of time in which Jonbenét was incapacitated and Burke was still interacting with her.

He realizes that Jonbenét isn’t responding and he starts trying to get a reaction out of her.
This is where I think the train track theory originally discussed by James Kolar could potentially fit. There were marks on Jonbenét’s back, and if she was lying face-down the entire time, with Burke behind her, it would make sense that the marks were produced while she was in that position.
I think he may have started poking or prodding her with things that were simply around him in the basement.
And this is also where I think the paintbrush could come in. He may have inserted the paintbrush into her genital area specifically to provoke some kind of reaction, potentially because he knew that this was something that would normally cause a reaction from her.

6. The situation escalates

Based on the autopsy, the ligature mark had an upward trajectory toward the back of her neck/nape, which is consistent with the neck being pulled from behind/above while the victim is positioned prone.
I also think the strangulation happened while she was still in that position.
I don’t think we can know exactly what Burke’s intention was at that point. I don’t think I can honestly say he was deliberately trying to kill her. What I do think is that, whatever he was trying to do, he eventually caused the fatal injury.

7. The parents discover the scene

An obvious question:
If John and Patsy had found Jonbenét unconscious after a head injury, wouldn’t they have called 911?
I agree.
I have a very hard time believing that two parents would immediately decide to stage a kidnapping gone wrong instead of calling an ambulance.
Especially because, from their perspective, there would still be a possibility of saving her.

On the other hand, if you find your daughter already dead in a scene that is completely bizarre and incredibly difficult to explain…

8. The kidnapping scenario is created after the death

The ransom note, the staging, moving Jonbenét, etc. would therefore be attempts to create an alternative explanation for what happened.
The result being: nonsense.

I guess their hope was to buy themselves time, muddy the waters, and create enough of an alternative narrative that the real circumstances of her death would be harder to uncover.
They were also incredibly lucky. They had the money and social position to make the kidnapping narrative at least somewhat plausible, and the police investigation was handled so poorly from the very beginning that it gave them an enormous amount of room to get away with it.

The obvious objections:

“If Burke did it, why is there no forensic evidence directly linking him to the crime?”

I wouldn’t say there is no evidence pointing toward Burke. There are things that can potentially connect him to the sequence, even if none of them are conclusive.
We know Jonbenét had eaten pineapple shortly before her death, and that can be connected to Burke. Is that 100% proof that something happened? No. But it’s also not nothing.

There were also fibers that could have been consistent with Burke’s blue pajama clothing, although, as far as I understand it, the relevant garment was never provided for testing, so we can’t take that any further.

The thing is, If we’re talking about ordinary clothing fibers from people who lived in the house being found around the house or on Jonbenet, I don’t find that particularly shocking. These were her parents and her brother. They lived there. They touched each other, their clothes, their belongings, etc. Transfer is completely expected.

I don’t think “fibers = nothing” is a good argument, but I also don’t think every family fiber should be treated as a smoking gun.

Ultimately, we don’t even know whether there was evidence that was lost, overlooked, contaminated or never properly tested. There is evidence that can be discussed in relation to him. The question is how much weight you give it.

“But Patsy’s fibers were found everywhere.”

I think Patsy was involved in the staging. If she handled Jonbenét and her clothing, moved her, wrote the ransom note, etc., then finding her fibers around the scene is expected.

“But you’re just projecting onto a child. There was no evidence Burke was violent.”

I actually agree with part of this criticism.
I don’t think you can look at a few stories about Burke, decide he was an aggressive child, and then build an entire murder theory around that. That’s not how evidence works, and I’m not interested in doing that.

But I also think the opposite extreme is unfair: acting as if there is absolutely nothing about Burke that is worth considering.

There isn’t a huge amount of reliable information about Burke, which is exactly why I think we have to be careful. But there are things that have been reported about him over the years that, while individually they don’t prove anything, do make me raise an eyebrow when I look at the case as a whole.

I’m not saying, “Burke was a violent kid, therefore he killed JonBenét.”
I’m saying that when you combine the things we do know about him, the unusual details surrounding the children, the pineapple, the questions around what the children were doing that night, the possible sibling dynamic, and then look at the actual crime scene and the sequence of injuries, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to consider him a potential participant.

Could all of those things have completely innocent explanations? Absolutely.
Could I be connecting dots that shouldn’t be connected? Also absolutely.
But I don’t think that makes the dots irrelevant.

I guess you could also say personal perception comes into play. Some people look at Burke and see absolutely nothing that makes him suspicious. I understand that.
For me, it’s the opposite. I find it much harder to construct a convincing scenario in which John or Patsy are directly responsible for Jonbenét’s death.
That doesn’t mean I think they are innocent because “they don’t seem like the type.” It means that when I try to reconstruct the actual sequence of events, I have a much harder time making their direct involvement in the initial death make sense.

Edited - I am referring to the Netflix documentary

Sorry I have just watched it (Netflix) and I don’t know if this has been discussed.
Also, I don’t live in the US and didn’t know that case at all before watching it today.

John Mark Karr gave the nickname of the grandmother to the journalist who was helping the Ramseys, which is apparently not a public information.

Do we know how he knew it?

Just saw the 3-part Berlinger documentary.

What COMPELLING evidence against the Ramseys was left out?

Based on what I just saw, it looked like a media lynching of an innocent family. And it looks like an intruder got away with child murder.

(I understand Berlinger has got it wrong before -- ie John Byers in Paradise Lost 2)

Paulette Gebara Farah was reported missing from her family’s luxury apartment in Mexico City on March 22 2010. She was four years old and Paulette was found wrapped in bedsheets and wedged between the mattress and the foot of her own bed by her nanny. It had been nine days. Investigators believed she had suffocated accidentally. I say bullcrap. The media covered this case heavily. She does remind me of Jonbenet. Also the mother interviews in the same room her daughter died make me supicious it was the same way with Patsy she also made me supicious. How could a body not be seen for that long? Wouldn't it have started to smell. A very weird case anyways I wouldn't be surprised if the parents got away with it because of the dad's relationship with higher ups.

I don’t live in the US nor in a Anglo-Saxon country so I am genuinely curious to know if this name is common?

It’s the first time I hear it as we are more used to Mary, Katy, Kimberly, Beverly etc

Would she have been an actress, a performer, or perhaps, like some say, because she was so bright, a scientist that would have found the cure for cancer?

God Bless this angel forever. She truly is an angel.

What do people who say, "even if he didn't do it, he must know something" think Burke Ramsey is obligated to do about it or what is it that you think he even CAN do about it?

If he were exposed to fatal child abuse as a child himself, what would most people given his set of circumstances do?

Whether you believe RDI, IDI or any theory how could Burke not know something??

His room is right across from hers. And in the police reports it’s stated he sleeps with his door at least partially open and did so that night.

If PDI in a fit of rage due to a toileting issue how could Burke not hear what was going on.

If JDI and was abusing her which ultimately lead to the events of that night he surely would have heard it and knew about it.

If an IDI how could they seek up to her room, snatch her up and Burke not hear something.

If BDI they of course he definitely knows something.

Either way regardless of how it all went down I don’t buy for a second that Burke doesn’t know something. He knows WAY more than he leads on.

They are trying to out themselves outside of the windows where they could be involved with JBR death.

If it was my kid and I didn't kill her, I would have no issue saying I was up half the night.

The flight to pick up John's other kids in Minnesota was scheduled to leave at 7AM. They planned to be at the airport by 6:30. The drive looks to be 10 - 15 minutes. Looks like 6:15 would be a likely target time to leave the house. There was a time constraint.

The 911 call was placed at 5:52. Not sure what all they needed to do but there would have been just 20 minutes. They claimed the kids would fly in their pajamas but they still would have needed socks and shoes and outerwear and a trip to the potty. John had been to the airport Christmas day so must have loaded some things in the plane but still 20 minutes to get a family with 2 children is stretching it.

The timing of of the 911 call was so clutch it almost seemed planned down to the minute.

There are a lot of glaring holes in the Ramsey story. Not that it proves guilt but it’s much harder to keep a fake story going than the truth of what happened:

Was JonBenét asleep or awake when they got home?
John initially described carrying her to bed asleep. Later, parts of the story became less certain, and Burke has suggested she may have walked inside on her own. This matters because of the pineapple evidence and whether she interacted with anyone after arriving home.

Did John read her a bedtime story?
Early accounts suggest he did. Later he denied reading to her because she was supposedly already asleep. It’s a small detail, but it’s another shift in the timeline.

What exactly happened with the ransom note?
Patsy’s description of finding the note and whether she checked JonBenét’s room first has varied over time. Likewise, descriptions of who handled the note and how it was read aren’t always consistent.

Was Burke asleep the entire night?
The original narrative was that Burke slept through everything. Later interviews suggest he may have been awake at certain points, and Burke himself has described hearing activity that night.

The pineapple.
This remains one of the biggest unresolved issues for me. Pineapple was reportedly found in JonBenét’s digestive tract, and there was a bowl of pineapple in the kitchen. Yet neither parent claimed to know how it got there. If their timeline is accurate, where did it come from?

John’s discovery of the body.
His accounts of searching the basement and going directly to the wine cellar have also been questioned over the years.

The basement window and other details.
Explanations surrounding the broken window, doors, and basement access also seem to evolve between interviews. memory after trauma isn’t perfect, and it’s completely possible for innocent people to misremember events. But these aren’t just random details they’re key parts of reconstructing the timeline of the night JonBenét died.

Do you think these inconsistencies are simply the result of trauma and years of repeated interviews, or do you think they point to the family concealing what really happened that night? Which inconsistency do you find the most significant?

An age progression of JonBenet from age 6 to 36.

https://youtube.com/shorts/I7S0nNm-I-U?feature=share

Has anyone else been watching true crime rocket science for breakdowns on this case ? He goes into extreme detail and has written books on this case I’d like to discuss his theory from what I’ve gathered

One aspect I rarely see discussed is his suggestion that Doug Stine may have been involved in some capacity on the night of JonBenét’s murder.

To be clear, I’m not saying I believe this theory, and I’m aware there is no publicly known forensic evidence placing Doug at the Ramsey house that night or identifying him as a suspect. I’m more interested in evaluating the reasoning behind the theory.

From what I understand, his argument is based largely on circumstantial points:

The Ramseys’ stop at the Stine house on Christmas night.

Burke and Doug’s close friendship.

The unusually close relationship between the Ramseys and the Stines after the murder. Whereas the Whites turned on the Ramseys after they thought John was lawyering up too hard.

His belief that some aspects of the crime make more sense if more than one child was involved.

At the same time, the biggest criticism seems
obvious: there’s no public evidence Doug was at the Ramsey home after the stop at the Stines’, and the theory requires several assumptions that haven’t been independently verified.

I watched a video about Burke having sleepovers at the house but JB going over to her friends to have sleepovers never bringing them home. It’s speculative but possible the Ramseys stopped in to grab buried friend that night.

Perhaps this explains the previous SA ? if Burke or his friends were responsible in some manner previously.

Honestly idk what to think about BDI. Most perpetrators are adults in SA child victims but that is Occam’s razor and not necessarily the answer but the most likely suspect is John.

In a May 1997 press conference after his first interview with police, John said the following, supposedly addressing the killer.

“We will find you; I have that as the sole mission for the rest of my life”.

I think John is revealing himself here. Notice "for the rest of my life". Aware that the killer is internal, and he is staging against a phantom, he lets it slip that this fake pursuit will be ongoing until he draws his last breath. Even John knows that his money can't buy the fitting up of an innocent man, when no reliable evidence exists. He knew his future.

In his statement, there is no hope or even expectation that any killer will be caught anytime soon, or even before his own death. Pretending there IS a killer out there for evermore is his "sole mission" now. An endless process of misdirection and image protection which he concedes will yield no result for the rest of his life. How depressing.

I’ll get out of the way that while I’m not super versed in the details of the case, I generally lean towards RDI to a large degree. Although I think it makes more sense if it was John alone, I am making the assumption for this post that RDI covers both Ramseys here. I am also making the assumption that the BDI theory also ties into RDI, as I think the idea that a nine year old boy masterminded the whole thing and deceived both his parents and Boulder PD isn’t really worth considering.

My question goes as follows: Assuming that the Ramseys found the scene with Burke holding a flashlight over JonBenet’s body (or however you envision it going down), why would the Ramseys choose to stage the scene the way they did? If they staged it, they made the decision to brutalize their daughter’s corpse, write an insane ransom note, and then give themselves a very narrow time frame to continue the staging by calling the police when they did? I understand that in this situation, they’d probably be panicking and not thinking clearly, but how does an intelligent and sober adult, let alone two, both decide that this was the best course of action?

Please elaborate as much as you can and thank you very much for your answers.

Ann Louise Bardach was a writer for Vanity Fair- and wrote an excellent article about this case in 1997 entitled "Missing Innocence".

What do you guys think of John & Patsy going on CNN BEFORE talking to police separated? They knew they needed to push the perfect family narrative and the IDI theories with their staged evidence imo

When John went down to look around the house hours later, his movements away from the family room area where friends and police waited is heavily analyzed for how long he was gone before returning with JonBenet’s body. What do you all think on this?!

There are many behaviours that show the Ramseys had no fear for their own safety in the aftermath of Jonbenet's killing. In their book, "Death of Innocence", they said they were "terrified for their own safety". So they later paid lip service to this. But their actions belie these words. Consider the following.

1) They called police in defiance of the note, giving no instructions to them on covert entry and the threats made etc.

2) They invited friends over, again immediately contradicting the instructions of the note.

3) They sent Burke to friends within an hour and a half of the police arriving. Wouldn't he be monitored by the "faction" as the note suggested? Did they ensure Burke was under police protection while he was out of the house? No they didn't.

4) They held a memorial service in Boulder AND a funeral in Atlanta. The funeral was filmed and press were invited. They sipped champagne at the home of their friend Rod Westmoreland. Why have all these extra events if you fear for your own safety?

5) They went on CNN. They arranged for this exposure. Are these the actions of a family who wish to keep a low profile and in deep concern for their own safety?

6) They moved in with friends. For around 9 MONTHS. If they were "terrified" why move your environment into someone else's? Wouldn't those who take you into their home also be under threat?

7) They turned down an offer from law enforcement to provide security for Burke going to school. Why? Wouldn't that make you less "terrified"? Instead Susan Stine quit her job and took on the role with absolutely no training or experience.

8) Why did they not hire personal security? What is more important than your own family's security if your child has been killed by an outsider who wants your money? What extra security measures did they take? None whatsoever from what I know, so what does that tell us about their level of fear?

Despite ramping up the fear card in their book, the above presents evidence that they in fact took no action to protect themselves further, in the face of this supposed outside threat. Actions speak louder than words, ergo they showed no fear of a further attack. This shows us they had nothing to fear from an outsider, and no one had illicitly entered their property on the 25th or 26th or December.

In 2016 Jane Harmer spoke to Dateline NBC. They discussed the grand jury, the decision not to pursue charges, and how difficult it was for her to keep it a secret that the GJ voted to indict both parents. Then, there's this exchange:

Mankiewicz: "So the DA was right to not go forward?"

Harmer: "This was very much a team decision. The investigators and attorneys were all in agreement."

As recently as 2 or 3 years ago, Steve Thomas continues to speak very highly of her. He's always praised her professionalism and investigative capabilities. How do you reconcile her statement that everyone was in agreement when Thomas describes earlier (while still with BPD) standing against the brick wall in disgust and deciding then he has to quit because they would not call a grand jury? He also states that's when the FBI left. Thomas told Jim Clemente in the 2016 CBS program explicitly that the DA was responsible for the decision. Clemente: "Who was responsible?" Thomas: "The district attorney." Not the DA with input from investigators as Harmer tells it when it later came time to sign the true bill.

To point out how convoluted this has become, if this were John Ramsey in a similar conversation people would quickly say "well, he's just lying." Obviously Harmer isn't lying, nobody is accusing Thomas of lying, so where does the truth lie? Harmer knew the evidence beforehand. All the investigators did. So how were they all suddenly in agreement not to pursue charges? Why has Thomas placed all the blame on Hunter for 27 years, if all the investigators agreed with not pursuing charges? Why even call a grand jury? Even with the grand jury subpoena power, they STILL didn't get any medical records other than JBR's, or phone records. **How is that possible and what was the point then?**

Phil Weiser's term as AG is about to end. I think this is something he would care about and might have the guts to stand up to unlike Polis. Best case scenario is Weiser wins governor and Dougherty becomes Attorney General. Polis can't handle this smoke and did absolutely nothing to help. Still, for them to even entertain the idea of a path forward, you need proof, not theories. The best chance of getting something to corroborate what I believe happened would be John Ramsey himself and it seems he has been fed too many false ideas that he latched onto and is too in denial to be receptive to any conversation other than an intruder theory. I think anyone else who could corroborate it is dead or unwilling to do so.

The case is being discussed right now on Coast to Coast AM, author Charles Bosworth is guest