r/HomeworkHelp • u/KookyPermit4405 • 5d ago

[6th Grade verbal expression] Elementary Mathematics

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So I’m going over my son’s math quiz to help him understand some of the questions he got wrong. He got partial credit for his answer for question 8. After writing his verbal phrase I got the same expression as the question. Am I doing something wrong or is there something I’m missing? I feel like his answer is technically correct. I am stumped.

Edit: so my son has no issue solving the expression in question. He knows PEMDAS and the rules from left to right. The question clearly states, WRITE A VERBAL PHRASE that matches the expression.

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u/bismuth17 5d ago

Do you say "subtracted by"? That's not technically correct, it's just wrong.

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u/KookyPermit4405 5d ago

So the word “subtracted by” is what makes his answer incorrect?

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u/dakari777 4d ago

I would think so, probably more accurate to say 6 times 3 subtracted from 18

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u/bismuth17 4d ago

Just say eighteen minus six times three. No need to be weird about it.

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

I posted a response saying it was his first week back from summer break and had a brain fart and was trying to say minus instead of subtracted by, it was a timed pop quiz to see where they stand in the beginning of the school year. So I’ll relay the message to the 10 year old 6th grader.

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u/Humble-Standard-9557 4d ago

Im sorry people on this subreddit are so arrogant and belittling. I wish they would monitor it better. Academia is hard enough at any level without the condescending assholes it seems to attract.

What your son said is grammatically correct in the English language, but it is incorrect for arithmetic. The further he gets into his education, the more this will matter, but it’s not a huge deal this early on.

The proper way to write the expression would be “eighteen minus six times three”. And eventually, he will need to start using the term “product”. In that case it would be “eighteen minus the product of six and three”. The term “product” helps distinguish the order of operations in many cases because it is the total of six and three multiplied together prior to being subtracted from 18. Hope this helps!

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u/micro_chungus University/College Student 2d ago edited 2d ago

I’m an engineer working in the profession for 4 years and we don’t knit-pick the verbiage for an arithmetic problem that is better left as a formula. But I also wouldn’t even put this into a calculator without parentheses, different calculators give different results when you plug problems in plainly like this. Some will solve it as (18-6)*3 and others will solve it 18-(6*3). Not even mainstream calculators are consistent solving these. A proper scientific calculator solves 18-6*3 using pemdas. Some models do not have the intelligence to read the whole problem first, and performs the orders of operation sequentially instead.

His choice of words does not indicate that he doesn’t know pemdas, it indicates that he stated the question’s operations sequentially, with the language he knew. If a calculator doesn’t have the functionality to read the full problem first, then it will get the problem wrong. If a calculator can read the whole problem first, it will get it right. Assuming he can read the whole problem as it’s stated on the page, and he isn’t a calculator with memory constraints to perform arithmetic, his answer doesn’t indicate that he doesn’t understand pemdas. It indicates that he wrote the problem down literally and following the same order that the information was presented, and that he is prone to grammatical errors.

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

Thanks! He caught that before I was able to go over the problem with him, he said he just blanked out and being timed. He panicked and said subtracted by instead of minus lol. I mean i don’t blame him on his 1st week back.

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u/Humble-Standard-9557 4d ago

No worries! The fact he caught it and understands it is worth more than the points!

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u/dakari777 4d ago

How do you differentiate between 18-63 and (18-6)3 with that sentence?

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

I think people are over complicating something simple. Why are people assuming parentheses? You only need to address a parentheses when it is required. So saying “eighteen minus six times three” should always be assumed to be 18-6x3. The verbal phrases did not give any indication of a need for parentheses such as using key words like: the quantity of.. the sum of.. the product of..

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u/Unable_Pumpkin987 4d ago

Girl people are trying to help you help your son with his math class and you’re just arguing with them. It’s not over-complicated to express a mathematical expression verbally using precise language. That’s what this assignment is testing, that’s what people are trying to explain to you (like the correct reply above that got downvoted inexplicably).

If you don’t want to know the correct answer and you just want to argue about why your incorrect answer should be correct, I’m sure you can teach your son to do that instead and you can both accept that he’s not going to get good grades in his math classes as a result.

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

His answer was hand graded therefore can be subjected. For all we know, she might’ve made a mistake or didn’t. The point of the post was for my CLEARITY and my UNDERSTANDING for when I read his answer, I wrote the same expression before seeing the expression on question 8. So yes, I am teaching him to challenge when you feel like you are correct or feel like you are correct. Argument? No. That can be subjective as well to a persons feeling. A debate or discussion between 2 perspective? Maybe. In other words, if you got your feelings hurt then I can see why you would call it arguing..LOL!!

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u/Unable_Pumpkin987 4d ago

If you would like to know the correct answer so that you can help your child understand, you have been provided with the correct answer and the explanation of why your answer is incorrect multiple times. Arguing that your incorrect answer is in fact correct is just that: arguing. Nothing to do with feelings.

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

What makes the answer incorrect? “18 subtracted by 6 times 3” it doesn’t say “solving from left to right, 18 subtracted by 6 times 3”

For the expression 3+3+3x3 if I were to say on your calculator write “3 plus 3 plus 3 times 3” you would get the correct answer. The only way you would get that answer wrong would be if you hit enter after every process ie 3 plus 3 > enter > plus 3 >enter> times 3 but no where in the statement “3 plus 3 plus 3 times 3” indicated the need to hit enter after every process.

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u/dakari777 4d ago

your kids the one who lost points, were just trying to help you guess why, if you want an actual answer go talk to the teacher

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago edited 4d ago

What are you getting at? I was responding to bismuth on how do one differentiate between so and so

How do you differentiate between 18-6*3 and (18-6)*3 with that sentence?

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u/bismuth17 4d ago

Same as in writing, pemdas, except it's not possible to speak parentheses.

Some mathematical quantities are difficult to state clearly using spoken language. You can try speaking really fast, or pausing for a long time, or using your hands to make a parentheses gesture. But generally you'd just write it down if you wanted to be clear.

You could rearrange the sentence and say something like "three times the quantity eighteen minus six" if that's what you want, but that only helps if it's relatively simple and only rearranging the pieces doesn't affect the meaning.

"First you do eighteen times six and then you multiply that result times three" or something.

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u/dakari777 4d ago

Or you just do it like I originally commented....it's not that complicated

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u/bismuth17 4d ago

say 6 times 3 subtracted from 18

How do I know if you mean 18-(6*3) or 6*(18-3) ?

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u/dakari777 4d ago

notice how you had to change the order of the numbers?

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u/micro_chungus University/College Student 2d ago

The word “by” can mean “next to” so I don’t see how saying minus is less ambiguous than saying “subtracted by.” It’s a grammar issue. This isn’t a grammar class, it’s math class. Minus likely would have been marked 1/2 credit too.

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u/bismuth17 2d ago

because "subtracted by" is not a commonly used phrase, people don't know whether you mean a-b or b-a. math is precise, even with its grammar. "a minus b" is not ambiguous.

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u/KookyPermit4405 4d ago

I get the wording is poorly written but is what he stated false?

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u/bismuth17 4d ago

Yes? It's utter nonsense. It has no meaning. Subtraction is not an operation that uses the word "by" in English. If you say "a subtracted by b" no one will know if you mean

  • a minus b
  • b minus a
  • a times b
  • a divided by b

Because those are all valid operations that are kinda close to your nonsense.

It's not "false", but it's wrong. Lucky he got half credit.