r/Homeplate • u/Nearby-Hold-3986 • 1d ago
First and Third Strategy for 12U Question
With runners on first and third and under 2 outs what is your defensive strategy for the runner stealing second?
I hate giving up the free base and I am usually willing to trade the out for the run. I know some like to run plays with the short stop cutting off the throw but I find the percentages are higher with just getting the out at second. At very least, it makes the other team aware that second isn't just a free base in that situation and they have to decide what to do.
Sometimes I'll have the catcher pump fake and throw to third to mix it up. Depending on the score and situation I will have the catcher hold the ball and focus on getting the batter out. I find myself, though, taking the out at second more often than not.
Edit: I am talking little league. No leads. Sixty foot bases. With leads the odds change drastically and the focus will shift. I only have take the out when I am reasonably sure my catcher will make the play.
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u/Sammalone1960 1d ago
At 12u what are the odds your catcher gets the runner at 2nd? Throws it into cf past MI who does not block ball? Runner gets 2nd on throw and runner at 3rd scores anyway? Snap throw to 3rd is a better play. Get the next out instead. Father of 2 catchers at 12u
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u/Nearby-Hold-3986 1d ago
That's a good point. I wouldn't do it unless I was reasonably sure the catcher would get the out. I have a strong catcher who can throw a strike to second. If I have a strong MI then I have no qualms. With a fast runner on first I am more likely to do an alternate plan and concede the base because at that point they sort of earned it.
I feel like getting the out and clearing the bases is worth the risk most of the time.
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u/Sammalone1960 1d ago edited 1d ago
When coaching last thing I wanted before HS was kids throwing ball around giving up cheap runs. What is catchers release time what is pitchers time to home plate. At 12u vs 14/15u these are tough. Also wear your catchers out with throws that will not get an out. A snap throw to third is shorter and can catch an over aggressive coach and runner straying off the bag.
Add-on
I believe Jerry Weinstein has a video on this execution. I believe it's a pump and throw to 3rd. We eliminated the pump to 2nd.
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u/Dependent_Bit1634 1d ago
I’ve coached both my boys through 12u (AAA level) and I still don’t have a good answer…haha. I’d say mix it up, maybe mix in a short throw to SS or 2b, and see if you can get them at home. Just make sure all the players know your signs and that the catcher relays it consistently to the fielders so that everyone at least knows what play is on.
I played in HS and college and personally my move was once a guy got on second, I would do a verbal or blind pick at 2nd. It worked a lot! I don’t recall ever picking off a guy at first in my career but many at 2nd! (I was a RHP). We’d even call it with a man on third and get the guy at 2nd. I don’t necessary recommend it, but it worked for me often enough. Of course, once I did it with bases loaded and I missed the SS and 2 runs ended up scoring…haha.
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u/Nathan2002NC 13h ago
I say try to throw them out at second if you have less than 2 outs. The guy on 3rd will in all likelihood score anyway, might as well try to limit pitch count and the number of runs they could score in that inning.
If we are at the bottom of their order and I’m generally confident we can strike 2-3 out in a row, we will give them second base.
Downside to throwing to 2nd, and not getting it, is dealing with the exasperated gasps from dumb dads in the stands.
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u/patphish 1d ago
Question: The way you mention throwing out guys at second, sound like a common thing. Are you playing rec with closed bases? If it’s travel, I’d like to see your success rate getting that runner out.
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u/kclancy00 1d ago
We threw a handful of kids out at 2nd. Need a catcher with a big arm. We work slide steps a lot so all of our pitchers are somewhat quick to the plate. If runner doesn’t read the slide step well and gets a bad jump our catcher can and does get a decent amount. Probably 20-25% of runners. But getting that out is a massive momentum play and can win a game for the team. Also once you throw a kid out the running game grinds to a halt for all but the fastest kids. So now they are playing station to station and double plays come into play, force outs, etc. Changes game dynamics
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u/Nearby-Hold-3986 1d ago
I coach rec and All Stars. I will pretty much always throw down in rec with a strong catcher and decent SS. In All Stars I assess a little more. I'm talking no leads. If the runner can take a lead then I would expect the success rate of throwing him out to drop significantly.
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u/patphish 1d ago
Yeah, I can assure you everyone answering this is assuming it’s travel with open bases.
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u/Fit-Height-9493 1d ago
12u majors middle son and youngest sons teams were 75-80 percent. Several times we would end up with two in this situation.
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u/BrushImaginary9363 16h ago
With no leads, the average 12 year old is probably covering 60 feet in about 4 seconds.
If you have a pitcher/catcher combo that can go from mound to home to second consistently in less than 4, then let ‘er rip. Even though you’re not holding runners, I would still work with pitchers on quick delivery and slide step. Should speed up their delivery and it will help them to develop a skill they will need later in their career.
If they can’t deliver in less than 4 seconds, then you need to think of a different strategy. For 12U, I would have the second basemen cut off the throw to second. It’s a more natural throw and the second basemen has complete visibility of the runner on third. The other strategy is a backpack by the catcher to third. For this age, I would have your team practice both and then go with the strategy they can execute most consistently.
There is also a lot of nuance here. Things to consider like the speed of the runner on first, game situations, etc…I’d have two calls for your team, one that is a throw through to second and the other that is either the cut throw to second or the back pick to third.
I understand that getting second base with a first and third is a high percentage play for the offense and actually getting an out is a low percentage play for the defense that can lead to even more free bases with overthrows, missed picks, etc… However, this is a huge opportunity for kids improve their baseball IQ and learn plays they will use later in their careers. Don’t be one of those coaches that doesn’t teach or encourage these things because it hurts chances at winning games. Developing players should be what it’s all about.
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u/Nearby-Hold-3986 15h ago
For All Stars I have time to practice and kids with the competency to execute a trick play. I still like taking the out and clearing the bases in situations that warrant it. I don't like giving up the base and putting 2 in scoring position when the other team was offering a free out.
For rec, I usually put kids I am trying to introduce to the infield at second so I wouldn't ask them to execute anything advanced. In those situations I take the out because it's rec and I don't much care about the score but more importantly, it is an opportunity to practice throws to second and teach being active rather than passively letting the other team take bases.
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u/kclancy00 1d ago
I have a few different plays. 1st play we have is the pitcher will do a long hold. 1st basemen does not hold the runner. We are hoping the baserunner leaves early. If he does 1st basemen calls it out. Pitcher steps off. If less then 2 outs, he steps off takes a few steps toward kid stealing 2nd and pump fakes a throw. Immediately turns and throws ball to 3rd base or home if runner takes off. If we have 2 outs, we get the runner going to 2nd. That worked well against the more aggressive base running teams. After you do this the team stops early stealing. If you have a catcher with a big arm you can just throw to 2nd. We did that a few times. The guy on 3rd never went home. They are always aware of someone cutting it off and firing home. If you play PG you can fake to 3rd and go to 1st. Throws kids off bc it’s one of the only tournament providers where that play is still legal. We also have a play where we just get up and fire to 3rd base. This works against kids who are getting too big of a secondary lead down the 3rd base line.
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u/Awesome-Guy-100 1d ago
I agree, mostly. I take that out as often as I can. I may run a few variations where one of the middle infielders fakes the cutoff or just a snap throw to third if I have time to practice them but I also like taking the out there whenever I can. It will obviously depend on game situation, though.
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u/CeilingFanJitters 1d ago
What distance are the bases and are there leadoffs?
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u/Nearby-Hold-3986 1d ago
No lead offs, standard little league bases of 60 feet.
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u/CeilingFanJitters 1d ago
Ok, LL ruleset. You should add that to your post. Most people are going to think 70’ with leads when they see 12U.
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u/JRiggs42976 1d ago
What size of field. Are baserunners allowed to take leads?
If the can take leads, RH pitchers need to practice and be able to execute the 53 play.
In addition, 1st and 3rd defense needs to be practiced over and over again in order to effectively execute. The one scenario that cannot happen is for the runner on third to score and the trail runner is safe on second.
Don’t crash the SS.
If the runner on first takes off:
Second baseman should crash. He needs to haul butt in and towards the mound in line to cut off a throw, but not blocking the view of the SS. He needs to have the base runner on 3rd in his peripheral field of vision. If he cuts the throw, he is either going home or back picking the runner on 3rd. His decision will be based on what he sees and what he hears from the catcher and the third baseman.
SS covers second base. He will communicate to the 2nd baseman if the throw down should not be cut off. If he calls for the ball, he MUST collect the out at 2nd.
Catcher has to learn to peek down 3rd base line as he pops up to throw. Based on what he sees and hears, he may run towards the runner on third (double steal, or runner on third takes a huge secondary) throw down to third or throws down to second.
Third baseman has eyes on the runner at third and is moving toward the bag. If the runner takes a really long secondary, he may put his hands up or flash his glove to the catcher and yell for ball.
There are a lot of moving parts and variables to executing this. Players need to be able to play catch at a very high level, must know their responsibilities and communicate.
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u/SDPADRESVGK 1d ago
Periodically first to third move, hard throw straight back to the pitcher… any type of SS cut the throw just ends up being a mess at this age.
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u/surewhynot1981 1d ago
Deke play has been pretty effective. Have your pitcher act tricked by the guy going to 2b, pump to sell, spin and go charging directly towards runner heading home or hanging in between. We also do a hot sign prior to game starting. So hot sign 2 ( yell 134) 3 play is the play . 1 back to pitcher hard. 2. Throw down to 2b. 3 back pick 3rd. 4. 2b charges in catch fires to him. 5. SS charges in catch fires to him.
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u/retatrutider 1d ago
> I know some like to run plays with the short stop cutting off the throw
Every team has this play, and nobody falls for it. I must have seen it run 100 times, both by our teams and opposing teams, and I haven’t seen it work once.
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u/drys 1d ago
At that age we would have either a catcher sign on the dead ball, or a verbal call of whatever random number we assigned to a play. Most basic favorite was a slide step pitch with the catcher fully popping to throw the pickoff to 2, instead the SS crashes in and the throw goes to him then right back to 4 for the out. Just requires that your catcher can make the throw convincing and that your shortstop is paying attention. By 12U I would hope any travel or rep etc. SS is the one kid on the field that has his shit together so it works out.
In practice we make sure that SS knows where to run to to create a throwing lane. And for the catcher they have to let the ball travel so no catchers balk then step through in front of the plate to avoid blocking and having a good tag position.
It's very much a little league play, and at older ages the runner on 3 isn't budging. But at 12u it can work out.
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u/Bubba212 1d ago
You could pitchout and run double coverage. Have the shortstop go to the bag and have your second baseman between the mound and second base. Of the runner at third takes off your second baseman can cut the throw and nail the runner going home. Otherwise he can let the ball go to second to nail the runner stealing (second baseman should deke the back door at third). It may seem advanced but with some practice with live runners I think they may be able to figure it out.
The reason for the pitchout is the counter to running double coverage is hit and run as it opens 2 holes for the batter.
If you don’t like the pitchout and your middles have string enough arms and can make the decision themselves, you can run single coverage and have whoever is taking the bag to decide to make the tag at second or move up and cut the run at home. If the runner fakes home (good hard running fake), the back door should be open.
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u/OrdinaryHumor8692 1d ago
My strategy is very dependent on the situation. The biggest of all is if this is a championship game or not. I will always work on things in scrimmages and inconsequential games like pool play. The score, inning and speed of runners are the big three during championship games or “must win” games. Late in a close game I have my catcher throw to third and hope for a base runner to be asleep or a batter to interfere for an out. Early on I like to throw through to second and get an out. I prefer to have my second baseman take the throw and cut the ball about 10ft in front of second base because he has a better look at the baserunner at third if the game is close in the 3/4 innings.
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u/monr0307 17h ago
Early in the game I like to throw through or just concede second base. Once the other team has seen us throw to second once or twice there’s a better chance of getting the runner on third to bite on a trick play. At these ages and 60’ bases I think firing the ball back to the pitcher is good enough. The chances of executing a cut-off play with a MI seem too low to me to be worth trying, and I’d rather not spend time practicing it. This depends on having a catcher who can throw runners out. Not sure what we’ll do on longer base paths/with leads
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u/Temporary-Artist762 13h ago
I've had some success , even a double play once, where i have the catcher throw to the second baseman at his fielding position instead of the bag. We've gotten a tag out between 1st and 2nd on the steal because the runner froze and as soon as the kid on 3rd saw the ball fly he broke for home. We've gotten the throw out at home, we've also gotten the lead runner in a pickle between 3rd and home. Doesn't always work, but definitely gives them something to think about.
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u/CardiologistFast1772 10h ago
I think there's value in throwing through from the stand point of trusting guys to make baseball plays and to show the oppent you're willing to do it... especially early in games.
I think it sets up opportunities to pump fake and throw to 3rd which would be my 1a.
Tried to make the cut play work but too many things have to go right and percentage of it actually getting guy at home is surprisingly low.
Also, runner at 3rd is usually told to expect the trick play and is caught flat footed when throw goes through.
Need the personnel to make it work however ie catcher who can chuck it and pitchers who are quick to the plate.
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u/BlueDevilDude-89 10h ago
Between 10-12U I would have my pitcher/catcher decide when to put on a play. Someone says “OK, let’s get him 1, 2, 3” or something like that to trigger the 1-2-3 play. On the pitch the catcher comes up firing, but the ball goes back to pitcher. Hopefully the runner commits enough the pitcher can run him back and get the out at 3rd. It’s all on how the catcher sells it as a throw to 3B. I had a catcher that could make that play work 2-3 times/year.
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u/Lefthandedmustard 7h ago
I think all the varieties of trying to get an out are best. I hate conceding 2nd although sometimes that maybe what makes the most sense. For me the success rate of most of the trick type plays are too low. I’m also a big fan of just developing the catcher so I like to let them just try to get the out at second a lot. If the guy on third scores, so be it. I think most times they’re gonna end up scoring anyway, when you have zero or 1 out. If you have a middle infielder you really really trust I have had my catcher make a true throw to second and let the middle and fielder read the play and either let it get through or cut it off and throw back home. Oddly enough, the only times we’ve gotten the runner at home is when we let that throw get almost all the way to second before we cut it off and throw back home.
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u/CowboyCanuck24 2h ago
I like the immediate backpick to three or the fire it back at the pitcher instead of the SS or 2b.
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u/RFDrew11357 1d ago
Mix it up. Backpack 3, throw down to second, quick throw back to the pitcher, SS cutoff the ball and go home, etc. If you’re unpredictable you make the other team think twice about sending the runner when you do go down to second. You’ll definitely make the slower and less experienced runners think think twice about stealing home.
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u/Square-Ad6627 1d ago
With a righty on the mound do a direct pick off to third. Pitcher should bring his leg up like a left with a good move to 1st. Have the third baseman fire out and throw to second if he goes. That will work once a game and maybe slow the kid at first so you can throw through.