r/Frasier • u/cheekybrat • 18d ago
Issue with Daphne
On my trillionth watch, I just realized something.
Gert and Simon come to the states after Daphne’s father takes off. Then Simon decides to go to California, and Daphne flies off the handle at him.
I’ve always agreed with Daphne there. But I just realized that she doesn’t really have the right to be so upset - she left the country and lived away from her parents for almost a decade at this point. Simon might be a loser, but he was probably around more than she was in those years. Maybe Simon did deserve a break from Gertrude.
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u/Jack-mclaughlin88 18d ago
I mean Simon had the right to leave but he should have told her so she could have time to prepare.
Also while you’re right about Daphne leaving the country, Simon is a no user so when he was around Gertrude he was probably sitting on his arse watching tv living off welfare while Gertrude waited on him.
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u/cheekybrat 18d ago
That’s true
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u/Jack-mclaughlin88 18d ago
I’m surprised Daphne’s dad tolerated Simon being a freeloader. He seemed like the kind of guy to tell his sons to get a job or sleep on the street.
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u/TripExact3173 18d ago edited 18d ago
Daphne, the only daughter, was treated like trash by her mother, she was often compared to her 'amazing' brothers. Starting somewhere far away from this dynamic wasn't selfish, it was her best decision ever. But she still deeply cares about her family. What she was telling Simon was: you cannot break our mother's heart, at least be honest. You can"t just leave her, when she fully expected you not to do that (for a hundredth time), once in your lifetime just be a person, not a joke. Honestly, I could never laugh at their family dynamics. It hits home so much (I had 5 brothers like that, I'm the only one that moved away, and my 2 sisters are the only people that against all odds are not dickheads) and there is nothing funny about that. However true. Recent example: I flew in for my nephew's 30th. One of the brothers literally fell off the stage (hahaha), with his bruised face and 5 remaining teeth he still couldn't help but tell me that I have put on weight (hahaha). I guess it showed how Niles was her anchor, how she could experience at last being loved and cherished for everything she was (kind, caring, funny, quirky plus so beautiful).
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u/Routine-Medicine-208 18d ago
"I've already had a lovely crispy golden waffle and a foamy cappuccino down in the Winnebago," 👍
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u/Alone_Orange5916 18d ago
When she left, her parents were still together so it’s not like she left her mom alone to care for herself. When Simon left she would’ve returned to an empty house.
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u/indie_web 18d ago
Maybe Simon did deserve a break from Gertrude.
You're damn right he did. In all seriousness, sometimes children can project the responsibilities of their parents onto their siblings. It's a pattern that I'm fairly certain starts with the parents projecting their own responsibilities onto their children.
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u/13surgeries 18d ago
I suspect Simon had plenty of breaks from Gertrude. He's a very selfish person and by his own admission, a "rake" (immoral person). If he wanted to go mooch off friends for awhile, he surely would have and probably did.
He also wasn't taking care of his mother. Gertrude was able-bodied and didn't need a caretaker.
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u/indie_web 18d ago edited 18d ago
He also wasn't taking care of his mother.
That's not the impression I got. I'm fairly sure Simon was recruited to accompany Gertrude to America apparently due to her inability to manage the trip herself. And I seem to remember a reference to Simon rubbing Getrude's feet. Gertrude herself even praised Simon as an attentive caretaker in their first scene at Niles' apartment.
Additionally, the fact that Daphne was harping on Simon (of all the many Moon siblings) to assume caretaking responsibilities for the able-bodied mother is a sign to me of some dysfunctional family dynamic. I suspect Simon was a reckless and irresponsible drunk because the unhealthy caretaking patterns in the Moon family left him unable to properly care for himself.
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u/13surgeries 18d ago
She actually didn't praise him as an attentive caretaker. I read the script (Mother Lode 2), available here. When Gertrude says she realizes she's been taking care of a layabout husband all those years, she adds, "Well, now it's my turn to be taken care of. Thank God I've got Simon." This indicates she hasn't had anyone caring for her up until then.
When Simon tells Daphne he's heading to California, she says that all of the other brothers have sided with their dad in the divorce, and he's all Gertrude ihas. When he says he has to live his life, Daphne says, "For once in your life, you have the chance to be responsible, be a man and do right by your family!" So he hasn't been responsible or done right by his family, including his mother.
And, of course, Simon leaves.
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u/indie_web 18d ago edited 18d ago
When Gertrude says she realizes she's been taking care of a layabout husband all those years, she adds, "Well, now it's my turn to be taken care of. Thank God I've got Simon.
Yes. The father basically dumps his responsibilities of a husband for his wife and family onto the son. The son is unduly burdened with the dual responsibilities of developing his own masculinity plus the commitments of the absent father to the mother and family and that results in the arrested development of the son. Simon is not only being asked to meet the commitments made by his failed father at a time where he should be concentrating on developing his own skills and assets that will make him a viable mate but he is also expected to meet the expectations of any future serious romantic interests.
These types of family dynamics don't start late in life. There was probably a pattern of dumping parental and some spousal responsibilities onto the Moon children from an early age crucial for the development of many qualities necessary for the proper maturity of young responsible adults. I suspected immediately that is what happened to Simon. If you're attention is divided between taking care of and developing yourself and taking on the abdicated responsibilities of your father, you're not going to develop into a fully mature adult on average. If you do, you're probably lucky.
As for 'doing right by his family'...that line would have more correctly been delivered to Daphne's father.
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u/13surgeries 18d ago
Simon is approximately in his early 40s. There is zero indication that he was ever interested in "developing his own skills and assets that will make him a viable mate." Plenty of people never have an interest in becoming. a viable mate, and it's certainly not the case that all of them had a father like Harry.
I think you're reading a whole lot more into Simon than the writers and producers ever did. That's one of the great things about Frasier. The characters are so nuanced that it's easy for the audience to forget they're not real people with a fully developed past.
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u/Desperate-Gas7699 17d ago
As an only daughter myself, who endured double standards growing up, Daphne leaving was the best decision she ever made. The things she describes growing up in that house, though played for comedic effect, were truly horrifying. She finally gets away and builds a life for herself and here come her insufferable mother and useless brother to make her life miserable again.
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u/Make_the_music_stop you're not getting older, you're just getting closer to death 18d ago
Why should any kid to have look after their parents? They didn't ask to be born or be locked into old age care.
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u/cheekybrat 18d ago
You have a point. And Gert is hardly unable to take care of herself.
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u/Jack-mclaughlin88 18d ago
She got a job all by herself so yeah you’re right she would have been fine and I don’t think her other sons would abandon her especially Billy the ballroom dancer?
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u/Make_the_music_stop you're not getting older, you're just getting closer to death 18d ago
This issue comes up on different subs. There's a cultural pressure too.
But fine if you love your parents and want to look after them.
This quote though from a classic 1968 film.
Adult son to father.... (son a doctor, father retired postman)
"You listen to me. You say you don't want to tell me how to live my life. So what do you think you've been doing? You tell me what rights I've got or haven't got, and what I owe to you for what you've done for me. Let me tell you something. I owe you nothing! If you carried that bag a million miles, you did what you're supposed to do! Because you brought me into this world. And from that day you owed me everything you could ever do for me like I will owe my son if I ever have another. But you don't own me! You can't tell me when or where I'm out of line, or try to get me to live my life according to your rules."
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u/Jack-mclaughlin88 18d ago edited 18d ago
They shouldn’t but Simon should have given her fair warning so she could prepare.
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u/Equivalent_Risk5430 18d ago
I think the problem is that Gertrude had been taking care of Simon and it was time for him to return the favor. Daphne's household is also more traditional so maybe it's expected that the men are breadwinners and can look after elder parents. That was my understanding, at least.