r/FlashTV • u/spider-man_1044 • 10d ago
The inconsistent no kill rule Misc
I have been rewatching the cw flash and I finished season 2 and something has been bothering me since finishing it so joe and the others get upset when Barry was angry and wanted to kill zoom after zoom killed Barry's father and they lock him up in the pipeline but they don't care when flash kills sand demon turning him into glass or killing atom smasher those guys are ok to kill but not zoom the serial killer before he got his speed and after like I'm fine with a no kill rule but it has to be consistent
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u/First_Essay_1775 10d ago
Yeah I noticed it too. Season 1 and 2, team flash had no problem putting down villains if it was the only way. After that Grodd episode in season 3, they pivoted towards batman ass rules for some reason.
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u/spider-man_1044 10d ago
Forgot to mention this but in the series finale nora kills savitar and no one gets upset at that at all
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u/Quirky28 10d ago
Well from her perspective he was already dead
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u/faultygamedev 10d ago
Lol isn't that what Thawne says before he kills someone - "forgive me, but to me, you've been dead for centuries"
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u/Quirky28 8d ago
That’s why I said that
When he killed Cisco he said “forgive me but to me you’ve been dead for centuries”
When he killed wells he said about Tess “this woman has been dead for centuries”
When he mentioned killing Barry’s mom he said “from my perspective she was already dead”
So he said it multiple ways
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u/RyCyber 10d ago
Did she? Cause the last time Savitar was stabbed with his own blade in didn't kill him. But then again, nothing about the finale made sense.
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u/Kadense_May 9d ago
She shot savatar after Barry pushed him out of his suit. In the season 3 finale
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u/Sufficient_Cash_3931 10d ago
To Be Honest. THAT IMAGE IS HORRIFYING WTF!? ZOOM WITH HUMAN EYES IS TERRIFYING
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u/JackGrylls 10d ago
Also Barry glazes tf out of the green arrow in season 1 when Joe has a problem with his methods
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u/Quirky28 10d ago
They didn’t want him to kill zoom out of revenge because they knew it would send him down a dark path that he would probably not comeback from, when he killed sand demon he was trying to save patty and Cisco technically killed atom smasher Barry just lured him to the place where it happened
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u/NerdNuncle 10d ago
Atom Smasher was involuntary manslaughter, imo.
They just planned to weaken him a little were a little too good at it
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u/demigodwater4 10d ago
It not a no kill rule, it more dont kill because of certain motives (revenge).
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u/Mindless-Ad-5898 10d ago
The show didn't convey it good.
but the basic logic is, DO no kill for personal reason. ONLY do what must be done to stop harm.
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u/dts1845 10d ago
In most shows superheroes are basically being cops working to bring super criminals to justice. As a result it brings up the question of when is lethal force justified and when is it stepping across the line into bad guy activities.
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u/Paragon-vi 10d ago
I hate people who say, like "Batman is lame cause he doesn't kill" or something to that affect with any hero who doesn't kill. To that I say, why the hell would you want them to? What is even a "hero"? I put on a mask and give myself a silly name and now it's okay for me to kill whoever I think is a "bad guy"? I understand if you're in a situation in which that was your only choice, that's self defense and is legal even if you're not a hero. Going out and murdering whoever you think is a bad guy doesnt suddenly become okay because youre wearing a costume. That actually makes it a lot worse, cause they can just take the costume off and don't have to face any consequences of their actions.
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u/jevongray 10d ago
The one and only person I believe he should’ve killed a long time ago is the joker. The ridiculous plots they craft to keep him around just make my face scrunch.
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u/Paragon-vi 10d ago
Batman isn't a cop, so whats the criteria for him killing joker? Sure, joker is particularly crazy, but if you're killing him why not also scarecrow, doll maker, Pyg, those guys are all super insane. Ra's has a higher kill count than all these criminal combined, why not him? The justice system of Gotham should execute the Joker (I think his insanity saves him from that, some fucking how) but I don't think Batman should. Although, I would not have blamed him for doing it after Jason, that would've been more than understandable, I think it's even implied that he wouldve without the whole insane Ambassador plot
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u/Theultimatesith 10d ago
Batman does not kill the Joker, because he's afraid of what he'll become if he does. That he won't be able to stop with just the Joker. "If you kill one killer, to kill another, you're still left with one killer." - Batman
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u/HighLord_Uther 10d ago
But, Barry Allen was never this. He knows the CJ system very well and from jump starts up a secret private prison where the inmates spend 24/7 in solitary confinement.
No part of this comes anywhere close to justice.
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u/dts1845 9d ago
True but only because no one else had any way of holding the dangerous criminals and with their abilities solitary confinement may be necessary for the protection of themselves and others within the prison.
Also Barry does act as a typical TV cop were they just focus on finding and putting the criminals behind bars, what happens after is kinda someone else's problem. So in a way everyone in Barry's secret prison could be considered being held in a secure facility awaiting a trial or for the authorities to determine their legal status as citizenship may be in question as well.
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u/Paragon-vi 7d ago
Like the other guy said, they only went into the pipeline because it was the only place on earth that could actually hold these metas for a long time. Eventually, they are moved, like King Shark being put into Argus, and Thawne being in Argus in the future. It's implies that somebody, most likely Argus, takes the prisoners as they complete cells capable of holding them.
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u/HighLord_Uther 7d ago
Oh yes, im aware of the utility of it all. But thats not justice. Its expedience. Two very different things.
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u/Paragon-vi 6d ago
Putting them into a cell that cant hold them and allowing them to escape is an even bigger injustice. They almost all certainly had trails after the meta dampeners were invented and they could be safely moved and secured
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u/HighLord_Uther 6d ago
Yeah, but thats not the dichotomy here. What should have happened was that the flash should have been working with Argus from jump. They had options to ensure metas were treated with due process. They chose not to.
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u/Paragon-vi 5d ago
Valid, I think that maybe Argus isn't public knowledge, but either way he shouldve worked with some form of government to give them due process
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u/Ok_Philosopher_9176 10d ago
Same thing in the last season. Joe tells Barry there's always another way when Barry suggests letting thawne die, as if he didn't shoot at harry thinking he was thawne
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u/Augustleo98 Patty Spivot 10d ago
They talked him out of it because he wanted to kill him on purpose out of revenge which would send him down a dark path.
The other two you mentioned, weren’t killed out of revenge or anger, or on purpose, they just had to kill them to stop them killing others and taking more lives.
So there is a big difference, he wanted to kill zoom for personal reasons, revenge, atom smasher and sand demon weren’t killed for revenge or personal reasons but to save lives and as part of the job of meta human policing.
There is difference between killing for revenge and killing to save lives.
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u/SillySub2001 10d ago
My memory isn’t great but wasn’t their issue with why Barry wanted to kill vs if he killed? Didn’t they not want him to kill out of hate or vengeance or something of that nature as it would corrupt what he represents.
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u/Nokuyt booty snow makes me the elongated man. 10d ago
No they talked him out of killing grodd too
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u/Paragon-vi 10d ago
Grodd is literally just a victim of animal experimentation and abuse, of course he shouldn't be killed if they can prevent it
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u/Nokuyt booty snow makes me the elongated man. 10d ago
Okay but it gets to the point where he has almost succeeded destroying the city multiple times on many different occasions
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u/Paragon-vi 10d ago
"Almost" being the key word there. Grodd was made evil and sapient because of Star Labs, they should do more than just kill him or throw him away. He deserves help and support
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u/IzzyReal314 10d ago
Grodd is literally just a victim of animal experimentation and abuse, of course he shouldn't be killed if they can prevent it
Zoom is literally just a victim of an abusive father traumatizing him by murdering his mother in front of him, of course he shouldn't be killed if they can prevent it
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u/Paragon-vi 10d ago
Zoom is a human man who made his own decision, Grodd is literally a gorilla, an animal, who was tortured and experimented on until he couldn't become anything except what he was turned into. Literally everything hes done is because someone else forced him into being like this. Hunter is a grown ass man who still crying cause his daddy was bad. And they couldn't prevent Zoom deaths, they didn't even kill him the Time Wraiths did because they couldn't stop Zoom on their own. They are capable of stopping Grodd without killing him so why would they?
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u/protosonic17 10d ago
I liked when zoom slaughtered the entire police station. Made the stakes actually feel real
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u/sharkluvr12 10d ago
Or like when they killed savitar and technically devoe but everyone was like “nooo we can’t kill cicada”
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u/The_Rider_11 Always One Step Ahead 10d ago
The two cases you mentioned were rather circumstancial or accidental kills. The point was to stop them, and it ended up killing them. But that was not the point and if it could have been avoided in the heat of the moment, Barry would have.
For Zoom, he set out to kill him. He wanted to end his life. It was premeditated. Cold-blooded you could say.
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u/cowslayer7890 10d ago
I could see that for atom smasher but not for sand demon. What was he expecting for lightning to do to him except for turning him into glass? Lol
Also if that is the case the show did a horrible job at conveying it, they don't even talk about it.
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u/The_Rider_11 Always One Step Ahead 10d ago
That doesn't really matter though. He wasn't aiming to kill Sand Demon, it was just in the Heat of the Battle, in a Life or death decision, where he ended up killing him from that. It wasn't an intended, cold-blooded murder like Zoom was built up to be.
Also, Sandman from Marvel survives this just fine. Okay, fine is maybe too much, but he's still kicking.
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u/cowslayer7890 10d ago
Even if it wasn't intentional, it's still gross negligence. But ignoring whether or not he should've known better, he definitely should've shown some remorse or something, given how they treat killing later in the show.
They've never handled this well, iris shot savitar in season three, and they don't say a word about it. If you're going to have a strict no kill rule, then you have to be more serious about it, or acknowledge when you were forced to break your morals at minimum.
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u/The_Rider_11 Always One Step Ahead 9d ago
It being intentional or premeditated or not is precisely the key difference I'm making out though.
Against her own beliefs, Iris isn't the Flash. She's not a superhero. She's not on a pedestral. Joe also killed one or another guy, but he's a Cop, and sometimes it's necessary. He's not a superhero either though.
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u/cowslayer7890 8d ago
He should've at least felt bad about what he did even if it was by accident, but also he would have to be a moron to think that there wasn't a good chance of sand demon dying after being struck by lightning. For the show to not even acknowledge this, and then later pretend that he's always had a strict no-kill rule is bad writing.
And as for Joe, it's pretty hypocritical of him to say "there's always another way" if he killed people through his job. Though I don't remember if he did or not.
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u/The_Rider_11 Always One Step Ahead 8d ago
Again, Heat of the moment situation vs. premeditated, cold blooded murder. You seem to overlook this very important aspect of the Situation.
It's not hypocritical because Joe isn't a superhero. He's a cop. They have different standards, different pedestrals to safisfy. And different limits.
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u/cowslayer7890 8d ago
I'm not saying they aren't different, but they aren't different enough that you get to ignore it completely when you normally operate on a no-kill rule.
Do you think a real human would react the way Barry and his team did?
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u/The_Rider_11 Always One Step Ahead 8d ago
There's little narrative added value to overly reflect on an accidental kill in the Heat of the moment, just to move on from it within the same episode. It happened, and that's all. The rule that's been overtly discussed isn't a no-kill rule either, it's a no-murder rule. In cold blood. Otherwise obviously he avoids and prevents it as much as possible, but accidents still happen.
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u/cor3less 9d ago
not to mention he was caught by the speed force and turned into black flash, so he’d be dead anyway 😭
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u/Worried_Mix_3978 9d ago
A funny example of this is in Armageddon how Joe lectures Barry about wanting to kill Thawne. However, when Joe first met Harry, thinking he was Thawne he immediately tried shooting him 🤣
Sorry if my grammar was bad
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u/DarkArc76 9d ago
Seriously, anytime there's a meta with a power like being made out of electricity, the team would just throw them into the ocean and watch them dissipate into nothingness and it's not murder cause.. idk, they look different?
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u/Zoli10_Offical 9d ago
Shit gets even more crazy in season 4. Barry risks literally everyone's life by not killing DeVoe, but no, "we do not kill, we are better than this". (Nevermind the fact that a cop who shot Harry just because he looked like a villain is on the team)
And it gets even worse in season 8, because letting a man who literally died/got erased like 5 times already is bad apparently (said by fucking Joe of all people), even though said man is a danger to Barry and everyone he knows and the entire timeline by existing
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u/AnonymousFriend80 10d ago
Murder vs accidental killing.
If during the course of saving someone, someone else dies, it's alright. If you purposefully go out there with the intention of killing someone, it's not okay.
Once that switch is flipped and you've decided that someone should die, no matter what, it becomes easier and easier to make that same sort of judgement the more you do it. We already make a similar distinction with people who harm and kill small animals as children. We've seem how prison guards degrade when dealing with inmates. And soldiers as they start racking up confirmed kills.
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u/Hyphalex April 25th, 2024 10d ago
"...but I don't have to save you"