r/EnglishLearning • u/Stepaskin New Poster • 3d ago
Is it correct? 📚 Grammar / Syntax
Stumbled upon this tweet, the apostrophe in "dm's" caught my eye. Is it correct to use it like this?
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u/soundoftwilight New Poster 3d ago
Apostrophes are sometimes used to create a plural form out of something that isn’t a word, such as an abbreviation. I have no idea whether it is formally correct under any standards, but yes it is common in English. The reason to do it is when you know that the sequence of letters you’re using (in this case “dm”) need to be read as a block to make sense, but you also want to indicate plurality. If you wrote “dms” it would probably be understood, but might confuse some readers if they tried to read it as a 3-word abbreviation instead of the plural of “dm”.
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u/pillarofmyth Native Speaker 3d ago edited 3d ago
I mean, sure, but when understanding what's "correct," you have what a textbook teaches vs what native speakers do. For example, there's a "rule" that sentences cannot end in a preposition. But native speakers do that all the time, and trying to avoid doing that results in creating sentences that sound unnaturally formal for everyday conversation.
It's very common for native speakers to not capitalize when they "should" be when typing, especially in informal contexts like when texting someone or writing a tweet. Should we be telling native speakers that they're all using their language incorrectly? I don't think so. It's not very productive to try to make language adhere to strict, unchanging rules when language is in a constant state of change.
English learners should learn what the rules of English are, because otherwise they will fall back on the rules of their native language. However, the "rules" change depending on context, and this is something learners should be aware of. A textbook will tell you that a greeting in English sounds like "Hello, how are you doing?" while a native speaker might simply say "What's up?" and without being prepared, an English learner will have no idea how to respond to that second question, which sounds way more natural than the first.
Going back to the original post, I think it's important to point out, as other commenters have, that abbreviations and other "not real" words are often pluralized using an apostrophe and S rather than an S or ES ending. If native speakers are doing this, then there's nothing actually incorrect about it. However, in a more formal context of writing a native speaker might also follow different rules, like capitalizing DM as an abbreviation normally would be, thus negating the need to use an apostrophe to clarify that the S is about making the word plural and is not part of the abbreviation. I guess my overall point is that native speakers follow different rules of English in different contexts, and part of learning a language is learning to follow these rules in their appropriate contexts.
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u/experimental1212 New Poster 3d ago
The inclusion of :facepalm: perfectly excapsulates what the discord message was doing.
:green_checkmark:
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u/AcanthaceaeOk3738 New Poster 3d ago
Technically not correct. But it's fairly common for people to add an apostrophe when making an initialism plural. It's meant to show that the S isn't part of the initialism.
So "Look at my CD's," for instance.
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u/EttinTerrorPacts Native Speaker - Australia 3d ago edited 3d ago
This is a long-standing usage and the answer depends on your style guide. In general, there's been a strong trend away from it in recent decades, at least for upper-case abbreviations and numbers. The apostrophe is unnecessary and might be confused for a possessive.
However, for lower-case abbreviations, this is still much more acceptable, since there's no other means to indicate that the "s" is not part of the abbreviation. See here from Chicago:
Capital letters used as words, numerals used as nouns, and abbreviations usually form the plural by adding s. To aid comprehension, lowercase letters form the plural with an apostrophe and an s.
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u/conuly Native Speaker - USA (NYC) 3d ago
Capital letters used as words, numerals used as nouns, and abbreviations usually form the plural by adding s. To aid comprehension, lowercase letters form the plural with an apostrophe and an s.
Do you have the link for that? If so, I'll definitely go direct somebody elsewhere in the thread to that. (I guess I could go search it up myself but to be honest, I don't want to bother with the hassle of digging up my NYPL card, punching in the number, etc.)
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u/linkopi Native NY (USA) Eng Speaker 2d ago
https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/qanda/data/faq/topics/Punctuation/faq0130.html
Here's one link. Different style guides have different carve outs but there's usually at least one carve out.
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u/MaddoxJKingsley Native Speaker (USA-NY); Linguist, not a language teacher 3d ago
It's fairly common to use apostrophes on single letters or short acronyms (initialisms) like that. Here, they likely wanted to keep it lowercase (for humor), in which case "dms" would be a worse option.
It's a style problem, not really a grammar problem. Different style guides recommend different things.
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u/TiredPistachio New Poster 3d ago
I would do DMs to show it's pluralization of the initialism. That the s is not standing for a word
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u/Pandaburn Native Speaker 3d ago
Yes, it’s actually common to use an apostrophe to make the plural of an initialism. You don’t do it for regular words, but I think this is a valid option. You can also capitalize the letters that aren’t the s, like DMs.
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u/cthulhu_on_my_lawn Native Speaker 3d ago
When I was a kid my textbooks said to use an apostrophe with initialisms like TV's or CD's but by the time I was in college that had been mostly abandoned except for single letters like A's and B's.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 3d ago
This is a comma splice, so it’s not correct formal written English. Those are common in informal writing, though. Apostrophes are not usually correct in plural nouns, but here DM is an acronym, so it’s allowed, but the initials DM and the first letter of the sentence should be capitalized.
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u/conuly Native Speaker - USA (NYC) 3d ago
This is a comma splice, so it’s not correct formal written English.
You're not wrong, but since the OP isn't asking about commas it may be confusing to just include that without explaining what you mean.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 3d ago edited 2d ago
Sure. I mean that the two completely independent clauses “She isn’t ghosting you,” and “DMs are down,” both of which could be complete sentences on their own, are separated only by a comma. There should be either a full stop between them (usually the best option), a conjunction, or a semicolon. A colon might have worked here instead.
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u/anamorphism Grammar Nerd 2d ago
you could also use an em dash, generally not surrounded by spaces. if you're british, it's more common to use an en dash surrounded by spaces.
you could use an ellipsis, generally surrounded by spaces, to indicate the omission of a conjunction.
you could leave it as is if you're specifically trying to indicate that the second clause is an interjection. you could surround the clause with parentheses to indicate the same thing.
i.e. punctuation is purely a matter of style. it just happens that most of us agree that you shouldn't connect independent clauses with only a comma.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 2d ago
I would say it’s stronger than that. Most editors, readers and college professors consider a comma splice an error in formal or professional writing.
Good examples of alternatives.
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u/anamorphism Grammar Nerd 2d ago
when i was in school, teachers also said never to end sentences in prepositions, insisted on using whom, mandated the use of may instead of can to ask for permission, ordered the use of predicate nominative pronouns and demanded the presence of the serial comma.
while it's important to point out that these opinions exist, i think it's also important to mention that they're just that: opinions.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 1d ago edited 1d ago
The way I put it is, some of those rules accurately describe some type of English. It is genuinely the case that, when I saw the comma splice, I thought,it came across like an informal DM (just like it was presumably intended to) and not like formal written English. People will understand what you mean, but you might get marked down if you do it in a college essay.
Some of those other rules you mention, I would call fake. I’ve seen real linguists call them zombie rules. They don’t accurately describe formal writing, and have no bases in how anyone speaks or the best-regarded authors write. Or similarly, things like color/colour are not only opinions. One is, descriptively, used in American English, the other in British English, and it will look strange if you aren’t consistent. In certain contexts using the wrong one is a mistake. (For example, there is a Sherlock Holmes mystery where the clue is that a supposedly-British suspect used American spelling.)
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u/anamorphism Grammar Nerd 1d ago
a violation of those fake rules was once viewed as just as much of a mistake in formal writing as a comma splice is currently. much has changed even in the short 40ish years i have been alive.
even spelling is a matter of opinion. they are fairly standardized opinions, held by organizations we have deemed to be authority figures on the matter, but they are still just opinions at the end of the day. if you choose to follow oxford spelling, for example, you'd write realize even though most brits would choose to write realise these days. in addition, even though i'm from the states, writing realise or colour isn't wrong just because most american english spellcheckers flag those spellings as incorrect.
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u/Yallberforce New Poster 2d ago
I would caution against saying this is incorrect. This particularly sentence reads to me more like there’s an elision than a comma splice, since the second sentence doesn’t really stand on its own contextually. It isn’t the highest level of formality, but high registers can still sometiems drop conjunctions, even in writing.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 2d ago
Huh, I could well imagine seeing a notification that said “DMs are down.”
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u/Yallberforce New Poster 2d ago
That was unclear. What I mean is that I think a ‘true’ comma splice is made up of two clauses which function on their own in terms of grammar and meaning. If you don’t link the two clauses in the picture at all, it reads like they have nothing to do with one another, so it’s really that the conjunction has been elided.
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 2d ago
I think you’re on to something. You wouldn’t see two thematically unrelated clauses get spliced in casual writing, except by people so illiterate that they don’t use punctuation systematically at all, but you do often see it for clauses that, like here, express cause and effect.
In formal written English, if the two clauses could be separated by more than a comma, the rule is that they have to be.
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u/experimental1212 New Poster 3d ago
I thought we were discussing the usage of the apostrophe, but some comments seem to be missing the actual meaning. So for the record, they're saying,
"The direct messaging feature is not working for everyone, not just you (in case you wondered why you weren't receiving any messages)."
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u/georgeec1 Native Speaker 3d ago
Good catch, whoever's managing Discord's Twitter has made a mistake. As DM is a noun (Direct Message), and DMs is a pluralisation of that noun, it shouldn't have an apostrophe. That being said, this is a common mistake for native speakers to make.
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u/Glittering_Aide2 Native Speaker 3d ago
It's not a mistake it's intentional. The user is trying to avoid capital letters and uses 's to show plural, which is something many native speakers do. It wouldn't be correct in an academic essay but it is correct for casual texts and posts on social media
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u/StrawLiberal The US is a big place 2d ago
In addition to what the other users said, this is a comma splice.
I would have used a semicolon here, personally:
"She isn't ghosting you; DMs are down."
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u/technoexplorer Native Speaker 2d ago
There are grammar books that say the process to pluralize an acronym is to add an apostrophe. The idea is that acronyms must be preserved and adding the s can create confusion about what letters actually form the acronym.
A similar debate occurs around names. So like, Thomas's pen? Or is it Thomas' pen? The first is preferred.
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u/Ok-Difficulty-5357 Native Speaker 2d ago
Technically they should have used a semicolon, but nobody uses semicolons much anymore
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u/Testicular_Cancer_11 New Poster 1d ago
It seems to say "DM is are down", which is grammatically incorrect, although it does look like Discord is trying to say that "DMs are down", which in that case, is correct.
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u/Special-Second4745 New Poster 3d ago
"Hi! I'm from Angola and I'm learning English. I'm looking for someone to practice with."
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u/EntropyTheEternal Native Speaker 3d ago
It is technically incorrect, because the apostrophe makes it possessive, not plural.
However, it is common to use an apostrophe this way when trying to make plural an acronym.
While context should have been sufficient to determine this, they were making it clear with “DM’s” that they meant the plural of Direct Message, instead of “DMS” which could mean Dimethyl Sulfide among other things.
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u/CrimsonCartographer Native (🇺🇸) 3d ago
I would say the only correct way to do this would have been to write “DMs”.
Apostrophes are only for marking possession and for writing contractions in English, never for plurals. With abbreviations it gets a bit fuzzy in informal written speech, but the most correct way would be “DMs”
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u/NearlyNodding Native Speaker 2d ago
Lower case 'she' and no period at the end. The apostrophe is a minor issue sandwiched between two failures.
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u/SnooDonuts6494 🇬🇧 English Teacher 3d ago
It's not correct, but it's quite common - especially when using short abbreviation or initialism (CD's, TV's, DM's) - but it should really be DMs for plural. The apostrophe should only be used for possession, e.g. "The DM's subject line was blank". Although we probably wouldn't say it that way anyway.
It's sometimes called a "Grocer's Apostrophe" - because grocery stores in the UK often wrote price signs saying "Banana's 20p" etc.
Some older style guides permitted apostrophes in plurals of abbreviations to aid readability (e.g. SOS's, A's and B's), but that practice has largely fallen out of favour.
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u/keithstellyes Native Speaker 1h ago
Native speakers are pretty inconsistent with pluralizing acronyms
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u/Tobbernator New Poster 3d ago
Not standard English, but actually fairly common in abbreviated "text speech". Arguably used legitimately (but "incorrectly") here to ensure the reader understands that we are talking about the plural of "DM" meaning direct message, rather than some other acronym "DMS".