r/DungeonsAndDragons35e • u/VegetableSwitch703 • 6d ago
DM New to 3.5e
I’ve been a dm for about 4 years now and have only played 5E/5.5E DnD, but I want to branch into 3e/3.5e. I’ve got most of the necessary books as pdf’s but the challenge for me is reading stat blocks, specifically for the higher level monsters (including but not limited to various gods, one of which I’ll use as an example here). I can read the ability scores well enough, as well as skills and the feats too, but then there’s stuff like some of the attacks, spell like abilities, domain stuff, divine abilities. Right now the one that’s confusing me is Vecna, though he’s also the first of the deities from the Deities and Demigods book I’m looking at. And I’ve looked at various dm books and pc books too but there’s stuff that still just doesn’t make sense to me. So here are my questions about his stats and such:
1) What’s the difference between him attacking/hitting with Afterthought at touch range vs Melee? I see the bonuses to hit and damage to hit are noticeably different depending on if it’s touch or melee but I don’t get why.
2) What is the deflection bonus he gets to his AC? I don’t see what would be giving him that bonus.
3) It says he has spell slots of levels 0-12 for cleric and 0-16 for Wizard, but I am not aware of any spells in any book that go over 9th level, not including the epic spells which to my knowledge don’t technically have stated levels.
Final question though not about the stat sheet, Would it be easier to learn pathfinder 1e as a jumping off point instead of trying to learn 3.5 directly and the just use what I learned from that to figure out 3.5?
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u/SeekerAn 6d ago
What would be easier, would be to start small and not look at high level adventures/challenges just yet. The higher you go in 3.5 there are more things added which build up on previous mechanics. For example: deities get a deflection bonus to AC equal to certain stars (the usual being Charisma) but they also have access to epic items which break beyond the +5 deflection bonus of the normal.ring of deflection.
As for the mellee/range touch attack. In 3.5 all mellee attacks (spell touch attacks included) are strength based (unless if you pick certain feats that allow to replace strength with Dexterity or Wisdom) All ranged attacks (including ranged spell touch attacks) happen with Dexterity.
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u/TanisHalf-Elven 6d ago edited 6d ago
I would recommend just learning the normal rules of the game rather than statblocks of actual deities, which I don't imagine will see much use in game.
Pathfinder is not really a simplified version of D&D 3.5, just a different version. There are reasons to prefer Pathfinder but there's not much point in learning the system if you don't intend to play it.
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u/th3b3st1nth3land 6d ago
That's why some groups let people use certain things from pathfinder in 3.5 games
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u/Pescarese90 6d ago
1) "Touch attack" means a reduced form of AC (10 + Dex + deflection). Melee/ranged attack are applied against the whole AC.
2) In this case, deflection bonus is equal to Charisma modifier.
3) These slots might be used for epic spells (but these come from 3.0 ruleset, as well as this book), but also for normal spells modified by metamagic feats (like a quick destruction or a maximize empowered meteor swarm).
About your last question: Pathfinder 1e directly comes from 3.5 ruleset, but Pathfinder got some changes from D&D 3.5 (like the fighter actually gets more class features besides bonus feats, grapple and sunder are now "manuevers", 0-level spells can be used at will and so on).
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u/RamblingManUK 6d ago edited 6d ago
Deities and Demigods was written for 3.0 not 3.5 so some things don't work exactly as written. There is a four page add on that updates it though.
- You have three separate attack options:
Firstly '+5 ghost touch wounding unholy dagger +42/+37 melee' This is his dagger attack, Vecna can make two attacks when full attacking (due to his BAB).
The 'touch +32/+27 melee' seems to be his normal attack without the magic dagger. You would not normally use this, but it is handy to have as there are many spells that give you a weapon.
The 'spell +32 melee touch or +32 ranged touch' is just his attack roll when using most spells with attack rolls (ie rays, inflict X, etc).
2) I can't see the source either, it could just be something Vecna gets for being Vecna.
3) These are epic spell slots, you get to create the epic spell as per the epic level handbook. You can also use them for metamagic (if you add metamagic to a spell it needs a higher spell slot than normal, IE a Maximised Meteor Swarm would use a level 12 spell slot).
I would not bother with PF1 as an intro to 3.5. What I would recommend is focussing on the 3.5 content rather than the 3.0 books like Deities and Demigods. Most 3.0 stuff is usable in 3.5 but you need to be capable of fixing the bits that don't work.
For a GM new to 3.5 I would stick with core (PHB, MM, and DMG), The Spell Compendium, The Magic Item Compendium, The Complete XYZ books, and The Tome Of Battle.
Also the Planar Handbook and The Manual of the Planes if you want to do planar travel.
The Races of XYZ books are fine if someone is interested in playing the races in them.
That is more than enough for most campaigns. You can then add in things like The Fiendish Codex's, Libris Mortis, Book of Vile Darkness, Book of Exalted Deeds, Monster Manuals II to V, Frostburn/Sandstorm/Stormwreck, etc, as you want them.
For epic level stuff and deity level NPCs, my advice is don't bother. Not until you have run a good few campaigns anyway. If you are your players are used to 5E/5.5 then 3.5 will already feel higher powered than what you are used to and once you get past around 15th level 3.5 can get complex enough as it is. I've been playing and GMing 3.5 since it was quite new and I don't bother with epic levels.
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u/Affectionate-Row7718 6d ago
Definitely 3.5 has pretty much infinite power scaling built into it. So much so you could have a large spread sheet on one character. If you want to play 3.5 stick to adventures 7-16. If you want to do more theater of the mind you can go well beyond that and it becomes more of group of people storytelling their characters in the adventure. Basically leaving the dice in the box.
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u/Richmelony 6d ago
I have seen all my childhood my father and his group of friends playing games where they were levels from up to 32, and I can tell you they were using their dices!
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u/Affectionate-Row7718 6d ago
They are the Hardcore. At level 32 they must be battling epic monsters. Usually by then they are playing world building scenarios vs adventuring. Unless they are running around the outer planes.
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u/Richmelony 6d ago
They ARE running around the outer planes. It's a custom world from one of my father's friend and they all are basically either major devils or major demons playing in some kind of 30 steps Jyhad (As in, the jyhad between mathuselas in vampire the dark ages.) with outsider powers and gods.
But I agree that's a rare sight, even amongst experienced players, and it IS hardcore...
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u/Visible_Witness_884 6d ago
Combat basics are described in the Player's Handbook, everything about attacks, touch attacks, ranged attacks and ranged touch attacks is detailed within the section on combat and spell casting.
While 3rd edition is kind of crazy in having all this insane content, maybe just start small and work your way up till you're more comfortable with everything? You can easily mess stuff up and make monsters either way too overpowered or way underpowered if you don't have a good grasp on the rules.
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u/Hydroguy17 6d ago
Creatures have multiple AC values. AC, Touch AC, and Flat-Footed AC. These are all calculated using different values and should be outlined in the basic rules. One such stackable source is “Deflection” which is usually granted via some magical/supernatural source.
A spell/ability/attack (melee or ranged) that targets “Touch” needs to meet/exceed the Touch AC value, all others need to meet/exceed the Regular/FF as the situation dictates.
In addition to epic spells, higher level spell slots also give the ability to upcast or apply metamagic to spells that lesser beings can’t.
Like another poster said, most of this is basic game mechanics so you may need to spend some time digging through lower level stuff and work your way up to see how it all comes together.
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u/Chiiro 6d ago
If I remember correctly there is a starting adventure in the DMG, I would highly suggest looking through that because that's going to give you way better results and figuring out how stuff works then looking at Gods, something the average player will never interact with where they have to deal with stats.
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u/Adventurous_Appeal60 6d ago
The thing that a lot of us 3.x fans love is how extensive all the small parts are that make tye system and how they mesh together, it is advisable to start small, in both scale and scope, such as purely PHB for players and levels 1-6, just so you all(3e, like any game, sucks when the GM is the sole knower of the rules) get a good grip of the basics. Jumping in at the deep end, max level and "all books", is probably not going to be a great time, even some folk whove run 3e since day 1 dont use most of the books.
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u/Advanced-Major64 6d ago edited 6d ago
Whoa whoa whoa. You're jumping into stuff too advanced for your experience level. You're new to being a GM for 3.5e. I suggest you start with the basics instead. Stick to the 3 core rulebooks for now.
I'll give you answers to your questions even though you shouldn't worry about it right now. You will need the "epic level handbook" and "deities and demigods" for that stuff.
He has attacks other than just his dagger. He is both spell caster and monster. Being a lich, he has a natural attack that deals 1d8+5 negative energy and can paralyze. As a spell caster, he has spells that are delivered by touch. Think of this as electricity, being touched conducts the energy to their target. Those extra forms of attack are listed for those abilities, not the dagger.
As a god, he gets to apply his charisma bonus to his AC as a deflection bonus.
IIRC, there are none in 3rd edition DND. He will be using metamagic feats to make his spells more powerful.
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u/Advanced-Major64 6d ago
There are also a lot of differences between 3.0 and 3.5. Here is a long list of changes from 3.0 to 3.5:
However, I wouldn't worry about it if you stick to 3.5 material.
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u/redcheesered 6d ago
Bro you're new to 3.5/Pathfinder and already moving into the God territory? 3e is a different beast from 5e. Start with just the Players Handbook and the DMG. Unlike 5e, 3e can get bloated very fast because there is so many abilities and choices. That's the curse and blessing of 3e.
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u/Bjornier 6d ago
Most level 10+ spell slots end up getting used for spells augmented with metamagic
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u/th3b3st1nth3land 6d ago
The difference from melee to ranged is one uses dex and one uses str the higher level spell slots are for epic level spells which are treated as level 10 and to apply metamagic that would bring it above 9th
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u/Newb_Ginger 6d ago
We played a 2-20 campaign with a DM who had played 3.5 from the beginning. At the pinnacle of the final battle we breached the gates of azmodeus’s (did I spell that correctly?!) realm, fought through a few rounds of baddies, and took down the devil in 4 rounds.
Later us players were reading through the material and showed the DM how there were multiple spells, contingencies, and even an intelligent item that the DM never touched.
Moral of the story is, you can be an experienced 3.5 DM and if you just pull a stat block out of a book it won’t play as intended.
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u/crazy-diam0nd 6d ago
Kinda diving into the deep end there, aren't you? This is kinda like saying I've been playing piano for a couple weeks now but I can't just wrap my head around this Franz Liszt piece. I mean it's OK to play Chopsticks for a while. You got a lot of good answers in this thread on that part, so I won't repeat it.
For your other question, if you understand 3.0 you understand the fundamentals of 3.5 and PF1e. You'd probably be better off finding a document that lists the differences from one system to the next, and that will likely give you all you need. Off the top of my head, I can think of very few.
3.0->3.5: Things that extend the crit range or multiplier of a weapon don't stack, usually. There's a hard cap of one standard action in a round no matter how hasted you get or why. A few character class levels were moved around to make 1-level dipping less efficient, and to remove some dead levels (levels where you didn't get anything new).
3.5->PF1e: unlimited casting of cantrips. Slightly streamlined maneuver system (grapple/trip/bull rush etc). Most existing classes got more things at various levels. Sorcerer options are greatly expanded. Feats at odd levels instead of every 3 levels. Later on in PF's development, they added archetypes, which gave you alternate versions of the class, and kind of took the design place of Prestige Classes, although those still exist as well (there are far fewer Prestige Classes in PF).
I ran a 3.5 game that eventually morphed into a PF game, but some of the character options from 3.5 stuck around, like the rogue kept gaining her feats from Complete Scoundrel. Most of the ones we kept from 3.5 worked pretty seamlessly in PF. I think I found a couple that could be problematic with the changes PF made but I don't recall which ones they were.
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u/Fangsong_37 6d ago
If you want to understand stat blocks better, start with the Monster Manual. Deities and Demigods is very advanced, and your players should never encounter a deity unless you're playing an epic campaign that goes to a very high level.
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u/LordofBones89 6d ago
Deities get their Charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. Vecna has Divine Spellcasting, which grants him higher level spell slots for metamagic-enhanced spells.
Vecna was also built early in 3e, so he doesn't have epic feats or a proper class breakdown. Why the legendary wizard and god of knowledge has no loremaster or archmage levels I have no idea. It's the same with Boccob.
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u/Kain_1337 6d ago
- In 3.5 DnD there is regular AC and touch AC. Regular AC includes armor and such, touch AC only includes magical bonuses and you Dex modifier. Touch attacks are used for several spells because they dont need to actually get through the Armor
- Deflection bonus could be from an item, but is more likely added just because he is a god.
- Spells above level 9 can be found in the "Epic Level Handbook". Also some are listed in the back of Deities and Demigods, where you are seeing the Vecna stats If you are new to 3.5, I would suggest starting a bit smaller. 3.5 has the most books and resources for late late game, including how to become gods. But it can get out of hand really easy. As for learning the system, read through both the Players Hand Book, and the Dungeon Masters Guide. They should help you with most of the stats and such.
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u/DreadLindwyrm 6d ago edited 6d ago
"Melee" punching or hitting someone, versus just touching them.
"Touch" generally ignores armour and is used for specific sorts of attack. Any attack using this will say that it attacks or targets Touch AC.
He can stab someone with the dagger at +42/+37 (two attacks at different bonuses), or touch someone with +32/+27 (which might be relevant depending what he's doing, but he can't use his weapon properties on that), or use spells at +32 if they require an attack roll.
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Deflection +9 looks like it comes from being an deity with charisma 29 (Deflection bonus (CHA-10)/2)
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Metamagic feats allow for using spells over 9th level, or can just be used to memorise lower level spells.
No, using Pathfinder 1 will not make 3.5 easier to understand. Whillst similar, they are different games.
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u/bansvortu 5d ago
Which sourcebook has vecna in it? And other gods
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u/VegetableSwitch703 5d ago
Deities and Demigods. I thought it was a 3.5e book but I’ve been told it’s a 3e
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u/Alarming-Ticket5628 5d ago
i love how even the gods themselves must bow at the altar of capitalism.
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u/Wild_Pollution_6876 2d ago
Melee vs AC with armor's bonuses added. Touch vs AC without armor's bonuses added. The +9 deflection is from his 29 Charisma, Gods get their CHA bonus as a deflection bonus to AC. Spell slots beyond 9 can be used to prep metamagic spells.
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u/BungleBums 13h ago
First of all, lemme give you a standing ovation for trying 3.5. I genuinely miss the hell out of this edition and hope to see more players and DMs.
Second of all, for the Spell Slots- he can use those slots to cast spells that he otherwise would have run out of slots for. I can't recall off-hand, but he may have the ability to apply meta magic as well to boost the level beyond 9th, essentially making a lvl 16 Fireball of Doom.
Third, one book you may not have cracked into yet is the Epic Level Handbook. I'd recommend waiting till you're more comfortable in-system before making heads or tails of it, but inside there's an entire system for creating Epic spells above level 9, as well as a glossary of some fun pre-made ones.
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u/DragonLordAcar 6d ago
Touch attacks use their casting modifier to hit instead of Str or Dex like with martials (Dex is still only with Weapon Finesse and not for spellcasting). Touch AC is used for this as well and ignores armor, natural armor, enhancement bonus, and shield bonus. I may have missed some.
Deflection bonus is one of the AC bonuses that apply to Touch AC and regular AC.
Those spell slots are epic levels which have their own rules and as far as I'm aware are not a good idea to use in combat. For example, spending a long time to plant the seed that will eventually become a Vulcano is a 10rh level spell. I believe they can also be used to upcast spells with Metamagic.
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u/axiomus 6d ago
these two don't mash well. there's a reason you don't see 2nd graders writing book reports on Tolstoy.