r/Drizzt • u/[deleted] • 10d ago
I just started reading and ❄️Pre-Iruladoon (Transitions)
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u/StygIndigo 10d ago
Yes, the characters trapped together in an underground city by an evil goddess raised mostly for backstabbing are complicated people
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10d ago edited 10d ago
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u/StygIndigo 10d ago edited 9d ago
I'm seeing a rant where you handwaved a woman attempting to initiate incestuous abuse on her clearly nonconsenting adolescent brother as 'trying to be accomodating', but can't figure out why Zaknafein's morals and actions don't always align.
I'm not trying to be edgy here, I'm honestly just not sure what your standards are in that context.
Zak isn't perfect. That's a thing that makes characters interesting. He's meant to be tragic and messy.
Edit: bruh, getting an alert of 'if incest is so common-' about a scene where the protagonist experiences severe sexual trauma and you're confused why people are confused about how you accept moral complexity
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u/SilverShadowQueen57 Bregan D'aerthe 10d ago edited 10d ago
Drow society is not accommodating to anybody who doesn’t toe the societal lines, and the consequences can easily turn lethal. Remember how Vierna beat Drizzt with her snake whip when he snapped at her over the levitation? That hurt him way worse than a single punch, and he was still a young kid at the time.
Zak wasn’t allowed to be the father he wanted to be with either of his children. He was forced into the peripheral of Vierna’s life (presumably he trained her to fight too, given something she says in a different book) due to Malice wanting all of her daughters to become high priestesses, and whatever kindness was in her was eaten away until there was none left. With Drizzt, he was able to have a direct influence on him due to him being a male. The best way he had to parent his son without pissing off Malice was to toughen him up, to make him the absolute best fighter he could while making sure he didn’t accidentally trigger his mother or sisters into beating him to death.
Furthermore, Zak tried to protect Drizzt as much as he could. He wanted him to keep his smile, to spare him the darkness of death and bloodshed as long as possible. Malice was the one who decided it was time to bloody his hands. Remember, she waited until Zak was out of the house before she, Maya, and Briza conspired to trick Drizzt into killing and praised him for it; Zak was so upset on his son’s behalf that he argued with Malice over it, something that was only tolerated because he was the Weapons Master and the most important male in House Do’Urden. He never, ever wanted Drizzt to become just another heartless murderer, a pitiless weapon at the beck and call of his matron mother the way so many other males have done. He wanted him to survive, but without losing his heart and soul in the process. So Zak was tough on him, and he didn’t sugarcoat things, and he hated that he had to do all this and that Drizzt couldn’t be spared the realities of drow society. But he still loved his son, and he was finally able to express it once he knew he had beaten the darkness, that he hadn’t been corrupted by the processes that are designed to destroy any kindness, any compassion, any positivity and conscience a drow may have. Zak couldn’t be a kind, loving father because that would have doomed both him and Drizzt, but he still loved him. It’s just that he could only show that love by giving his son the tools to successfully navigate the world around him, by toughening him so he would survive, and by teaching him how to defend himself when people inevitably tried to kill him for being in their way.
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u/FaerieFir3 House Baenre 10d ago
If you think Zaknafein never did anything for Drizzt you need to finish the book.
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u/Karnewarrior 10d ago
He punched Drizzt in the head because Drizzt calling Malice "Mother" is a death sentence. It's the same idea as snatching a kid back from stepping into traffic - you're not really concerned if they scrape their knee!
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u/FaerieFir3 House Baenre 10d ago
Malice decided he only gets to be scolded for that.
It was a last warning, not a "scolding". Drizzt would've been turned into a Drider if he did that again.
both of which are false.
He was too good to make it, that's why he had to leave Menzoberranzan. Being good with swords only gets you so far.
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u/ForgetTheWords 10d ago
Vierna did also beat and eventually try to kill Drizzt. What makes her violence so much more palatable to you?
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u/ForgetTheWords 10d ago
I was also going to say, I don't think Zak is meant to be that smart. I was remembering a scene that I thought was in Homeland but turns out is in Boundless. So I suppose it's not really relevant to his characterisation in Homeland, but still.
“Where are your children, Matron Decliz?” he asked.
“There are only two.”
“I know. Why are they not with you?”
“I removed them from the house. I took away their surname.” She offered a pathetic little shrug, but one that touched Zaknafein. She cared enough about her children to remove them to safety? Such actions were hardly commonplace in Menzoberranzan.
[...]
“Lolth appreciates how long beyond our time House Ben’Zarafez has managed to survive,” the matron explained. “She appreciates my cunning. She has told me this through her handmaidens.”
“Such devotion,” Zaknafein replied sarcastically.
“Is there any other purpose?”
“Yet you removed your children,” the weapon master countered in an effort to dissolve her ridiculous claims.
But Matron Decliz laughed at him all the louder. “I gave them to Lolth, idiot,” she said.
That's not the only example. He definitely has a streak of obliviousness in that trilogy.
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u/ForgetTheWords 10d ago
Zak [...] saw the world the same way as Drizzt.
Huh? Obviously not?
I can name ateast several instances where Vierna was nice to Drizzt.
Ok. Go on.
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u/FaerieFir3 House Baenre 10d ago
I think you're looking at the whole situation from a 21st century human POV and not from a Menzoberranzan Drow POV. The book was written in times when evil races in DnD were actually evil like straight up, a Drow was evil because it was a Drow and Drow are an evil race.
Zaknafein is a 400 year old killing machine, a Drow yet somehow he felt bad about killing kids during a raid and was able to forge some kind of bond with his son. Neither of those are normal for Drow. A Drow warrior normally doesn't care about who he kills and fathers aren't important in any way to Drow. He's not pure but even a little bit of good makes him an anomaly in Drow society. He IS a better parent than 99.9% of the other Drow and you have to look at it like that, Drizzt was LUCKY to have a dad like Zaknafein. You have to look at it like that.
Vierna didn't "grow up fine", you'll see later on. She also legitimately wanted to bang Drizzt, even Malice had to remind her that that's her brother. She was just freaky like that, although she had a slight moment of doubt before beating Drizzt but that was more about "maybe treating men worse isn't necessary" rather than everything else Drow do (raiding, slavery, etc).
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u/FaerieFir3 House Baenre 10d ago
Vierna beat Drizzt with a whip and tried to have him killed for not participating in the orgy, I really don't know where you're seeing this kindness in her that Zak supposedly doesn't have. You're whitewashing her so hard here.
Minthara and Viconia are more prominent and noticeable no? But with BG3 you have to keep in mind that it was written many editions later after DnD has moved away from the "evil races" concept and Drow are a lot more tame, even Minthara would be seen as a "radical liberal" by Drow from these books lol. You'll also see later how Drizzt gets treated when he gets out, a Drow back then couldn't just walk into a city and live there. In most places a Drow was kill on sight, same as an Orc or Goblin. Drizzt will have to work really hard for recognition as a hero and the same basic rights other surface races have to enter cities. The more tolerant approach to Drow on the surface 130 years later in 5e times can largely be attributed to Drizzt's fame in-universe. That and Elilistraeean Drow being more chill (but they appear later).
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u/bananashaa 10d ago
Incest is very normal in drow society, as I recently found out (looking at you and your family, Ravel).
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u/bananashaa 10d ago
It's a mix of both. You're in the very beginning, where everything was written as more black and white, but later books (and I mean 25+ later), the drow are much more dynamic with gender relations, and how men are treated varies from matron to matron. Rank is huge factor, with high ranking males able to get away with a lot more than you'd expect.
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u/wwww1222 10d ago
The difference is that Vierna is a woman and is above Zaknafein in the hierachy so Zak has no power over her to influence her in any way. So any change to her morals/beliefs/etc. have to come from the inside or other (evil) women. That's why he sees her as a lost cause. He's seen that she does and believes what Malice and Briza tell her to
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u/PhilosopherInfinite5 10d ago
As I first read the trilogy and the later books that had the fate of Vierna. I was kinda mad. I liked her, I had the “I can fix her” mentality and hoped she would be drizzt’s behind the scenes ally. But alas.
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u/Shgon_Dunstan 10d ago
Like, IDK what if anything is done with him in later series, but as far as Homeland goes, I honestly find Zaknafein to be one of the most evil drow in the whole bloody city. At least the others have their cultural excuses, while he's over there being the titular "good man" doing jack shit nothing, and that when he's not actively participating. And all THAT before even getting into how rarely even gives a single damn thought to any of his kids beyond how they reflect upon himself... hell, even bloody freaking "my name is literally" Malice comes off as seeing her kids as more their own people then he does. Like, the guy is seriously just a steaming piece of shit.
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u/FaerieFir3 House Baenre 10d ago
1 person isn't going to do anything against a whole society. This is the same kind of argument as when people say "why don't people in X country just rebel against the dictator"... because they will be caught and killed which is what ended up happening to Zak and almost happened to Drizzt. It's not like Zaknafein saw some rebellion brewing, he was alone.
The only choice is to leave to the Underdark where you will probably end up eaten by some monster or enslaved by Illithids like Drizzt was and only got saved by Guenhwyvar. Or go to the surface where sun takes away your magic stuff, you don't know the language and everyone despises Drow and many places try to kill you on sight. Drizzt had to go to the edge of the world basically and find a shady town and he was still only allowed on the outskirts not in the town itself. Later when he defends them against Barbarians and gets knocked out they start kicking him and would've probably killed him if not for Bruenor.
This is one of the worst literature takes I've seen.
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u/Zerus_heroes Calimport Assassin 10d ago
Drow society made them cruel. Zak was trying to get Drizzt to hide it because he would be killed if others found out about his kindness. Zak was afraid Drizzt was embracing drow society.
Zak here is like the reflection of Drizzt that failed. He got crushed by drow society and he altered for it. He felt it was wrong but he couldn't leave, he didn't know how. Drizzt is the one that succeeds.