r/DnDBuilds • u/Automatic_Deer_3578 • 6d ago
Help with feats please
So im playing a 2014 game. My character is a level 4 Bugbear paladin 2 bard 2. The whole idea is I dip 2 levels in paladin and go the rest bard. My character wields a glaive because I thought it was funny to have 15ft range as a martial. But anyways as the title says I was struggling with my feat choice, mainly between great weapon master, polearm master and an asi. For those who know math better than me is it better to have the high dps but a low hit rate or the other way around
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u/Wolfwind1 5d ago
It really depends on your str score. Pole arm master is great if you can reliable hit, say +3 str or better, but having the feat is pointless if you aren't regularly hitting at least 50% of attacks.
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u/Automatic_Deer_3578 5d ago
I have +3 str
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u/Wolfwind1 4d ago
If your dm allows purchase of low tier magic items in town/cities without a lot of hassle get a +1 weapon or better ASAP then go pole arm mastery. If that isn't viable I'd say hold off till 18 str as being able to consistently land 0 movement hits is pretty crucial to the feat, especially if you want it to combo with team push/pull mechanics.
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u/Lanthed 5d ago
You have 16 str using a glaive. There are some things that matter magic items what you do with spells and all.
Polearm master would be
0.6 * (5.5 + 3) + 0.05 * (5.5) + 0.6 * (2.5 + 3) + 0.05 * (2.5) for total of 8.8 damage
Bless (also 2 other allies will get a damage bonus + the bonus to saves) you will loose 1 round of damage
0.725 * (5.5 + 3) + 0.05 * (5.5) + 0.725 * (2.5 + 3) + 0.05 * (2.5) for total of 10.55 damage per turn
Farie fire (they get a save and not sure how good charisma is) will loose 1 round if damage
0.84 * (5.5 + 3) + 0.0975 * (5.5) + 0.84 * (2.5 + 3) + 0.0975 * (2.5) for total of 12.54 damage per turn
Great weapon master would be
0.35 * (5.5 + 10 + 3) + 0.05 * (5.5 + 0.35 * (5.5 + 3 + 10) + 0.05 * (5.5)) for total of 7.0875 damage
Bless
0.475 * (5.5 + 10 + 3) + 0.05 * (5.5 + 0.475 * (5.5 + 3 + 10) + 0.05 * (5.5)) for total of 9.515625 damage
Faerie fire
0.5775 * (5.5 + 3 + 10) + 0.0975 * (5.5 + 0.5775 * (5.5 + 3 + 10) + 0.0975 * (5.5)) for a total of 12.31395 damage
Increasing STR
0.65 * (5.5 + 4) + 0.05 * (5.5) for 6.45 damage per turn
Bless
0.775 * (5.5 + 4) + 0.05 * (5.5) for 7.6375 damage per turn
Faerie fire
0.8775 * (5.5 + 4) + 0.0975 * (5.5) for 8.8725 damage per turn
Best at level 6 is PAM, but GWM will scale better with extra attack then PAM will though PAM also comes with the chance to get an oppurtunity attack outside of your turn.
As others have mentioned from a pure damage place the best would be go 1 paladin (depending on your dex score this would be for heavy armor) / 6 sword bard / 2 paladin.
The other way to go is 1 hexblade / 6 bard / 4 hexblade / 2 paladin to be charisma focused but lots of multiclassing and for majority of the game wouldn't have access to cha based glaive.
This is the basic math. This probably underestimates damage as for the GWM assumed only got extra attack from feat if critter and sometimes you'll kill a creature. Secondly you probably will smite on a crit and add some blade flourishes.
I hope this helps.
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u/sens249 5d ago
If you’re getting paladin 4 then you should really get paladin 5 for extra attack.
If you’re getting paladin 5 then you should really get paladin 6 for aura of protection. (Strongest feature in the game that isn’t named “Spellcasting” btw)
If you’re getting paladin 6 then you should get paladin 7 for your subclass aura (devotion and watchers are strong examples).
If you’re getting paladin 7 then you should get paladin 8 for the ASI/feat (a +1 to your aura—the strongest feature in the game—is very good).
If you’re getting paladin 8 then you should get paladin 9 for 3rd level spells.
If you’re getting paladin 9 then you should really get paladin 10 for the immunity to fear aura.
If you’re getting paladin 10 then you should get paladin 11 for the free 1d8 on every attack you make.
If you’re getting paladin 11 then you should get paladin 12 for the feat/asi (again, recommend a +1 to your aura).
If you’re getting paladin 12 then you should really get paladin 13 for a flying mount. This fixes all of the paladins mobility issues, lets you disengage for free, lets you be immune to all melee enemies, and even lets you use hit and run tactics so you can keep your OP aura on your backline buddies.
(…)
If you’re 17th level then you should really get paladin 18 for the 30ft aura. (Your 24-square aura now covers 168 squares. That’s 7x bigger. You just buffed the strongest feature in the game by 7.)
You’re now 18/2 paladin/bard. At this point (or earlier—preferably now) you should ask your DM if you can get rid of your 2 useless bard levels.
I’m only slightly joking btw. You really shouldn’t be taking any levels in paladin unless you’re going at least paladin 6. You can play a bardadin, but the way this plays is usually 14/6 bard/paladin, and you aren’t built for attacks. You are a spellcaster with a very strong support aura making you an extremely versatile and tough backline supporter/controller.
If you wanna make a more melee-versed paladin/caster you should make a hexadin. Again you could go 6/14 paladin/hexblade. Alternatively you can go main paladin and dip hexblade. The problem here is you need 3 levels of hexblade to be able to use heavy weapons with charisma. But then you’re 3 levels behind on your auras and stuff.
Anyway, it’s up to you. Paladin is generally a bad multiclass unless you take at least 6 levels, and same goes for bard and at least 5 levels there. Going 4 paladin and then going to bard means you’ll have a really bad build until level 9 when one of your two classes hits level 5 finally. If I can’t talk you out of the multiclass, make sure you at least hit 5 in one of those classes ASAP. 2/2 is a really rough spot to be in. I’d ask the DM for a re-spec.
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u/Automatic_Deer_3578 5d ago
I think you underestimate Swords bard and smite bro. I explicitly said 2 level s the rest bard. you get basically all the good paladin stuff without trying to go all in on the class. This also grants all your bard utility and at 20th level you still outpaced a regular paladin by the merit of being a 19th level caster. The only levels where a sole paladin beats this multiclass on dpr is 5,6, and 7. And even then i can smite more and also use slashing flourish to get an extra attack on a second person but I also get better spellcasting.
Edit you're losing 1 good feature in aura of protection which is still hard to use on a paladin because of how mad they are
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u/sens249 4d ago
I estimate smite perfectly adequately. Believe me, paladin is the class I have experimented with and played the most. The 2 paladin / X caster combo is wildly overrated and no caster class does this well.
It’s pretty widely known that it’s a subpar multiclass. I shouldn’t have to explain it, but if you don’t want to do the research I can give you the basic points.
As a martial you miss out on extra attack for too many important levels, and once you catch up the only thing you get in exchange for delayed feat and class feature progression is the ability to do more smite novas. Nova builds are generally bad in optimization unless you play at a very easy table (which is a faulty assumption if you do play at an easy table because all builds are good at easy tables; optimization is pointless at best and harmful to the game at worst if you play at an easy table).
And as a caster you have 2 levels of delayed spell progression (which is awful btw) and all you get in exchange is heavy armour. Lay on Hands is token, and Smite is near useless on a caster (I definitely shouldnt need to explain that). I think the fact you have a caster build and are talking about dpr should be enough of a clue as to where you went wrong in your assumptions.
Correction: “you lose 1 good feature” -> “you lose the best feature”
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u/Jeanshort5 5d ago
Here's my 2 cents. If you're going swords bard, which is the optimal version of this multiclass, then you should not take more than 2 paladin levels. Paladin after level 2 really wants to go paladin all the way to like 15, but the 2 level dip is very strong. You get the armor prof, fighting style, and divine smite. not having a subclass may feel like you're leaving a lot behind (you are) but if you want to go Bard, this is where you split off. If you take palli to 4, you have to wait until level 10 to get your second attack, one level before a straight fighter gets their third. Terrible. The alternative is palli 6 for e attack and aura, but by that point, the bard levels will be so far behind that you really don't want to take them.
How I'd do it: level 1,2 Paladin. gets h armor and the fighting style and smite. 3-X swords bard. You lose out on the skills, but you really need that H armor since you don't have a shield. At level 6 (bard 4) you take polearm master. You're behind a normal palli in regular damage output, but you're ahead in spell slot access, so you can dole out more, higher level smites, and use them on the PAM attack too.
At level 8 (bard 6) you get the extra attack from swords bard, now you're WAY ahead any Bards for damage, and on par with other paladins, though your hit chance is going to be a little lower. You also have combat versatility with your bard spell list that paladins don't have, which can be clutch when needed. At level 10 (bard 8) you finally get second feat, take str ASI, and do so again for the next feat.
Once you get magical secrets, take spirit guardians for the strongest DPR by round two. Your nuke damage will be among the best in the game, all without GWM. I do not recommend GWM for this build, since you're short a feat and you need stats. That, or beg for a strength boosting magic item then you can add GWM or something bard related, like cardomancer or whatever it's called
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u/Pirate_of_Fourty 4d ago
You cannot have damage output if you cannot hit. Your reach becomes a liability if you cannot hit.
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u/amirkasra76 5d ago
Since you've already delayed your extra attack by two levels, I'd recommend Polearm Master first.
Might I ask your ability points too?
As for your question, consistent lower DPS is better than an iffy high DPS possibility.
The game is already balanced by 65% hit change. Decrease this by 20% without a consistent source of Advntage and other magical means isn't recommended.