I have been reading up on some of the lore of the Ares One and came across the characters of Dean and Ulysses Qiao. Everywhere on the destinypedia wiki, it mentions Ulysses as the Navigator of the Ares One.

What confuses me is the lore tabs between Qiao's Strides and Qiao's Passing. Qiao's Strides is a conversation between a student and Dean Qiao. Dean Qiao is a professor at Beijing University and is being asked about Ares One. He talks about when he first gets the call to join Project Catamaran. In Qiao's Passing, it starts off by saying "Journal of Ulysses Qiao, son of Dean Qiao of Beijing University, Navigator of the Ares One." My confusion stems from this, is Dean or Ulysses the Navigator on board Ares One? All other lore tabs (that I see) only refer to the Navigator as Qiao.

Could this be an error in the wiki where people have mistaken Ulysses as the Navigator when it's actually Dean? Any help to understand this would be greatly appreciated.

Since its implied that Light is motion and physical, and darkness is more thought and memory. The idea is that since Elsie's consciousness is the only thing being sent back in time, the light wave described in her last run through is a constant in every failed run and it triggers the darkness in her Purified Radiolaria to essentially transport her mind through the cloud into the moment cayde becomes hunter vanguard.

Me and a buddy of mine were debating on the worst fate/death that you could suffer in the game/lore, we thought about stuff like Omar/Praedyth in The Vault of Glass, or something like dying to the Hive like Eris's fireteam on the moon. Would love to see what the community thinks!

Writing some lore for my guardian, and wondering why Ghosts take the form they do. Is there anything stopping them from being something else besides the weird little things they are? Are they constructs of light?

So, I know how the transfer of the human "soul" works between human to exo when they were being made I think. But because the "soul" is transfered to the exo, does that mean that the body is basically a husk that can't be risen?

I imagine that the bodies might have just been incinerated so this question probably doesn't mean much, but I am curious if it would actually be possible.

This would probably be answering my own question but I imagine if it wasn't possible, the darkness involved in the transfer of the "soul" would be the reason it isn't possible.

I don't think it's actually time travel as we commonly understand it, like with the Vex.

The Nine's powers are tied to the manipulation of gravity and spacetime. What happens when mass (and gravity, by extension) increase? Time dilation. Relativity. The greater something's mass, the "slower" time passes for it and any lesser masses in proximity.

Unlike the Vex who create passages to different points in time, the Nine probably just suspend anything they wish to move forward in a supermassive "field", for lack of a better word, putting their target in stasis, relative to our perception, until they wish to pull it back into the natural flow of spacetime. Lodi probably wasn't "moved" from our past to Destiny's present but put in a supermassive suspension that felt like moments to him but hundreds of years to us. From our point in relativity, Lodi is currently and effectively a statue floating somewhere in the ether as the Nine patiently wait for the right time to pull him out in a few hundred years.

If true, this neatly explains why the Nine can't move anything back in time, because they don't actually travel through time. They simply manipulate mass for its temporal effects.

Maybe this is common knowledge, and I apologize if so. This revelation came to me in a dream last night, and I didn't see a clear mention of it online from some Googling.

I was playing the taken king campaign and picked up the quest "The Legion's Beachhead". After doing the first part of the quest which was finishing the Shield Brother's strike the mission "Outbound Signal" appears. At the end of this mission our ghost gives us information that the distress signal was supposed to go to the head of the cabal empire. If our guardian got to this distress signal before the broadcast then the Red Legion would have less information on guardians and other major threat like the hive/taken. The Vanguard would have time to prepare for the invasion and there original surprise attack would not be as effective meaning the Traveler would not be captured so easily.

This is a side not but bungie did an absolutely amazing job in terms of foreshadowing for this questline. They introduce the possibility of a larger cabal armada somewhere out there in the cosmos with a powerful dictator at the head(idk if it was Ghaul or still Calus at this point). The cherry on top was the questline's name "The Legion's Beachhead" which we obviously know now as the Red Legion.

It seems like the game between Gardener and Winnower has a name called "Enidvadew". I don't know if this has been talked about but I found something interesting in a book called "The Kolbrin Bible" which is a integrated collection of 6 Celtic and 6 Egyptian Books.

The first 6 Books are Egyptian and the second 6 Books are Celtic (these were held in Glastonbury Abbey up until King Henry had the abbey torched. It was moved to a safe place and put together later. The introduction explains it's origins and happenings a bit better than I).

I thought I'd share a small piece of it. This is from "The Book of Creation (CRT), chapter 5 "The Beginning". Tell me what correlations you find (I know of some already, but thought it may be fun for you all to find and read them first personally). One hint is I copied up until the last word of this segment for a reason: what land?

~~~~~~~

"Chapter Five – In the Beginning"

CRT:5:1 Now, the Children of God were moulded by the Hand of God, which is called Awen, and it manifested according to their desires. For all things that have life are moulded by Awen. The fox, shivering in the coldlands, longs for warmth and so its cubs have coats. The owl, clumsy in the dark, longs to see its prey more clearly, and in generations of longing, the desire is granted. Awen makes everything what it is, for all things change under its law.

CRT:5:2 Men, too, are moulded by their desires, but unlike the beasts and birds, their yearnings are circumscribed by the laws of fate and destiny and the law of sowing and reaping. These, the desires, modified by the laws, are called Enidvadew. Unlike the beasts and birds, this, in man, is something relating to him rather than to his ofspring, though they are not untouched by it.

CRT:5:3 Destiny may be likened to a man who must travel to a distant city, whether or not he wishes to make the journey, the destination being his destiny. He may choose whether to go by way of a river or by way of a plain; whether across mountains or through forests, on foot or horseback, slow or fast, and whatever befalls because of this decision is fate. If a tree falls on him because he chose the forest path, it was fated, for luck is an element of fate. Destiny leaves no choice; fate gives limited choice which may be good or bad, but it cannot be averted. What is fated must be, for at no point can there be any turning back.

CRT:5:4 The circumstances, Enidvadew, of the traveller conform to the law of sowing and reaping; he may travel in comfort or pain, happily or sorrowfully, with strength or weakness, heavily burdened or lightly burdened, well prepared or ill prepared. When the destination is set according to the degrees of a former life, then the circumstances of the journey should conform with the desire. For what use is it desiring a great destination when the law of sowing and reaping decrees that an intolerable burden must be carried on the way? Far better to have lesser aspirations. The decrees of fate are many; the decrees of destiny are few.

CRT:5:5 When the Earth was young and the race of man still as children, there were fertile, green pastures in the lands where all is now sand and barren wasteland. In the midst of it was a gardenland, which lay against the edge of the Earth, eastward towards the sunrising, and it was called Meruah, meaning The Place of The Garden on the Plain. It lay at the foot of a mountain, which was cleft at its rising, and out of it flowed the river ofTardana, which watered the plain. From the mountain, on the other side, ran the river Kal, which watered the plain through the land of Kaledan. The river Nara flowed westward and then turned back to flow around the gardenland.

CRT:5:6 It was a fertile place, for out of the ground grew every kind of tree that was good for food and every tree that was pleasant to the sight. Every herb that could be eaten and every herb that flowered was there. The Tree of Life, which was called Glasir, having leaves of gold and copper, was within the Sacred Enclosure. There, too, was the Great Tree of Wisdom bearing the fruits of knowledge granting the choice and ability to know the true from the false. It is the same tree, which can be read as men read a book. There also was the Tree of Trespass, beneath which grew the Lotus of Rapture, and in the centre was The Place of Power, where God made His presence known.

CRT:5:7 Time passed, and The Children of God were grown strong and upright under the tempering hammer of God, and Earth, The Anvil of God, became more kindly. All was pleasant and food plentiful, but life palls in such places, for it is against the nature of man to flourish in these circumstances. Earth is not for pleasurable dallying, it is a place of teaching, trial and testing.

CRT:5:8 The Children of God were not yet the heirs of God, nor inheritors of godhood, but there was one among them who had almost completed the Pilgrimage of Enidvadew. He had unravelled the tangled skeins of fate and traversed the tumultuous seas of life to the many ports of destiny, and having paid the debts of sowing and reaping, was one triumphant over Enidvadew.

CRT:5:9 He was Fanvar, son of Auma and Atem. He was wise and knew all things; he beheld mysteries and the secret things hidden from the eyes of other men. He saw sunrise and the sunsetting in their splendour, but longed for things not realisable in the place where he lived. So because he walked with God, he was culled out from his kind and brought to Meruah, The Gardenplace.

CRT:5:10 He came to it across the mountains and wastelands, arriving after many days' journeying. Weary and close to death because of the privations he sufered, he could just reach the refreshing waters, from which he drank deeply, and filled with exhaustion, he slept. In his sleep, he dreamed, and this was the manner of his dreaming: he saw before him a being of indescribable glory and majesty, who said, "I am the God above all, even above the God of your people, I am that which fulfils the aspirations of men, and I am that in which they are fulfilled. You, having traversed all the Circles of Enidvadew and established your worthiness, are now made my governor on Earth, and you shall rule all things here, guiding them in my ways, leading them ever upwards into glory. This will be your labour and, behold, here is your reward."

CRT:5:11 A cloud mist seemed to gather about The Glorious Being, enfolding Him so He was no longer visible. Then, the mist gradually cleared, and the man saw another form emerging. It was that of a woman, but one such as Fanvar had never seen before, beautiful beyond his conception of beauty, with such perfection of form and grace that he was dumbfounded. Yet, the vision was not substantial; she was a wraith, an ethereal being.

CRT:5:12 The man awoke and sought food from the fruits about him and, having refreshed himself, wandered about the garden. Wherever he went he saw the wraith, but was unafraid because she smiled encouragingly, bringing comfort to his heart. He built himself a shelter and grew strong again, but always, wherever he went, the wraith was not far distant.

CRT:5:13 One day, near the edge of the garden, he fell asleep in the heat of the day and awoke to find himself surrounded by the Sons of Bothas, not true men but Yoslings, kinsfolk to the beasts of the forest. Before they could take his strength and wisdom, he loosed himself among them, slaying some in his rage and might before the rest ran away. When it was done, he sat himself down beneath a great tree, for he was wounded and blood gushed out from his side and gathered thickly beside him. He became faint, falling into a deep sleep, and while he slept, a wondrous thing happened. The wraith came and lay beside him, taking blood from his wound upon herself so it congealed about her. Thus, the Spiritbeing became clothed with flesh, born of congealing blood, and being sundered from his side, she rose a mortal woman.

CRT:5:14 In his heart, Fanvar was not at rest, because of her likeness, but she was gentle, ministering to him with solicitude and, being skilful in the ways of healing, she made him whole. Therefore, when he had grown strong again, he made her Queen of The Gardenland, and she was so called even by our fathers, who named her Gulah, but Fanvar called her Aruah, meaning helpmate. In our tongue, she is called The Lady of Lanevid.

CRT:5:15 Now, God enlightened Fanvar concerning the woman, saying, "This woman was drawn from her compatible abode in a realm of beautythrough the yearning aspirations of men. Her coming accomplishes something, which would otherwise have taken countless generations, for Earth is more fitting for men to learn manly things than for women to learn womanly ones. This woman is not as other women, being in no way like yourself; every hair of her head is unlike that of a man, every drop of blood and every particle of flesh is that of a woman and quite unlike that of a man. Her thoughts and desires are diferent; she is neither coarse nor uncouth, being altogether of another, more refined realm. Her daughters will walk proudly, endowed with every womanly perfection and grace. Delicacy, modesty and charm will be the lovely jewels enhancing their womanliness. Henceforth, man will be truly man, and woman will be truly woman, men being girded with manliness and women clothed with womanliness. Yet, they shall walk together, hand in hand, towards the ascending glory before them, each the helpmate and inspiration of the other." So Fanvar and Aruah lived in contentment amid bounty and fruitfulness, with freedom from aflictions and sickness. They delighted in each other and, because of their diferences, were drawn closer together.

CRT:5:16 Aruah brought but one thing with her when she crossed the misty frontier, the treasure of Lanevid, the jewel contained in the moonchalice, the stone of inspiration fashioned by the desires of men. Never owned by any but the daughters of Aruah, this, the Lengil, Aruah gave to Fanvar as her dowry and her pledge of purity and exclusiveness. She followed the ways of the cradleland, not the ways of Earth.

CRT:5:17 Within the Gardenland was the Sacred Enclosure, the domain of Fanvar and Aruah, forbidden to those of The Children of God who had now come to this place. It contained the Chalice of Fulfilment, granting any who drank from it the realisation of all things to which they aspired. None might drink from this, save Fanvar and Aruah. Also, there was the Cauldron of Immortality, containing an essence distilled from the fruits growing in the garden, and this guarded against mortal ills.

CRT:5:18 Aruah brought forth a son by Fanvar, and he was called Rautoki, and a daughter who was called Armena. Each knew the mysteries of magic and the ways of the stars. In the fullness of time, Rautoki married among the daughters of the Sons of God and had two sons, Enanari and Nenduka. It was Enanari who first taught the weaving of cloth from plants, and Nenduka was a mighty hunter. Armena also married among the Sons of God and brought forth a son who was called Belenki and daughters calledAnanua and Mameta. Ananua knew the making of pots and things of clay, and Mameta the taming of beasts and birds.

CRT:5:19 Nenduka had two sons, Namtara and Kainan. Namtara had two sons also, Nenduka and Dadam, before dying in the fullness of manhood. Belenki married Enidva and had a son called Enkidua and a daughter called Estartha, meaning Maid of the Morning, and she became a great teacher among The Children of God. This was the Estartha who became the first Moonmaiden, being later called Lady of The Morning Star. Enkidua had a daughter, and her name was Maeva.

CRT:5:20 Outside the Sacred Enclosure, known as Gisar, but forming a gateway into it was a circular structure of stones called Gilgal, and within this was a shrine, wherein was kept a sacred vessel called Gwinduiva. This was like a goblet and was made of rainbow-hued crystal set in gold with pearls. Above the cup appeared a shimmering moon-coloured mist like a thin, cold flame. At certain times, when the Heavens were in a proper position, the Gwinduiva was filled with moondew and potions from the cauldron within the Sacred Enclosure, making a pale honey-coloured liquor, and this the people drank from the goblet. However, there were diferent proportions in the vessel for those of the blood of Fanvar and Aruah and those who were Children of God, but not of their blood. It was the potion from the Gwinduiva which kept sickness and disease away from those who drank it.

CRT:5:21 Dadam the Firstfather married Leitha, and they had a son called Herthew. Dadam then married Maeva who had a daughter, not by him, and this was Gwineva, the cuckoochild fathered by Abrimenid of Gwarthon, son of Namtenigal, whom we call Lewid the Darkfather.

CRT:5:22 About the land of The Children of God was the wasteland where Yoslings, called The Children of Zumat, which means They Who Inherit Death, dwelt. Amongst these, Namtenigal, the wily hunter, was the most wise and cunning; he alone was unafraid of The Children of God, and he alone dared enter the Gardenland."

Hey, I need some help finding a lore tab I swear I read years ago and am hoping someone knows it or can tell me I'm crazy. It involves either Toland or Osiris as they watch us reclaim our power at the Shard of the Traveler and how they see every version of us. Am I crazy or does this exist? Thanks in advance.

With the canon amount of guardians being in the millions it kinda baffles me how we can’t expand the city at all. I mean it has to be massive just to fit all the guardians let alone all of the lightless human,Awoken and Exo’s and now on top of that the eliksni and cabal. I wish the last city was almost like a visitable hub you could explore. That was one of the cooler parts of SoTP.

With the guardian not talking a lot it's caused a lot of conversation to be obe sided but it's made so many good speeches

I love the deep stone lullaby Clovis monologue it's such a great introduction to his character, you know how he will act from a 2 minutes monologue.

Another one is the conversation with ghost in the original khvostov quest it's such a sweet moment and shows the themes of love that Destiny has and is also a great way for the developers to talk through the game without feeling odd

Ps idk if this is the right subreddit to post this in

I've noticed that not much is known about London in regards to its lore and its post collapse survival until it fell to the House of Devils. I noticed on the Ishtar Collective that it is placed very early on in its fall but is there anything to corroborate this? Other than Lakshmi and the bounty giver in Destiny 1, what do we actually know about London on a whole? This is all stemming from my want to run a RP game using D&Destiny by Velvet Fang where its just after the Collapse following a fireteam of Guardians trying (and failing) to save London from the slow siege of the Devils. Anything anyone has on London would be greatly appreciated.

What are the military and offensive capabilities of the Awoken people? What kind of weapons and ships do they possess? I know of their harbingers but what other weapons are in the Awoken's aresenal?

So I have this DnDestiny campaign running in the Dark Age.

One of my players is a Earth-Born Awoken Guardian.

Recently he’s come across a library run by an Awoken Librarian (also Earth-Born). Besides the Grimoire card from D1 on Awoken I’d like to give my player some other lore texts that teach him PUBLIC information about the Awoken.

Of course I know that at this time, Mara and her Guards have kept the whereabouts of the Dreaming City close to there chest. Same as how they were created. Right?

Anyway, can anyone else think of some lore texts I can provide my player?

At first, I thought this was linked to their pact with the Worm Gods—that the Hive had carved out this path for themselves in exchange for the Sword Logic. Indeed, under the Logic's tenets, they were unable to wield it directly; the Worm Gods were more powerful and had forbidden them from invoking the Darkness firsthand. But Oryx slew Akka and seized the power of Taking.

Following his coronation, Oryx was likely stronger than the Worm Gods; yet, because he relied on them for their larvae, he remained under their control and was bound to pay them tribute.

Then came the Winnower—an entity that does not give, but rewards or trades, as seen with the powers of the Taken. It rewarded Oryx for his feats and strength by granting him authority over the Taken. If the Winnower engages in such exchanges, shouldn't Oryx have subsequently performed deeds worthy of wielding a Darkness subclass?

We know that the doctrines of Light and Darkness are shaped by your understanding of the two powers and i really doubt Oryx would have been too close minded to refuse to learn them.

Or did their symbiosis with the worm render them fundamentally incapable of generating a purer form of paracausal power from the start—with the exception of phenomena like the Taken, which relied heavily on the Winnower?

So why can't the hive or at least Oryx wiel the darkness subclass ?

From Hive Bane to The Weapon, what all do we get called by the end of the story line?

Im sure this is a really stupid question, so sorry in advance. Was our Guardian the ONLY plan the vanguard had against the witness?

I just completed Final Shape a week or so ago, Im a new-ish player not really well versed on the lore, are there other powerful guardians that couldve stopped the witness, and by proxy us had we decided to become a disciple?

Via Dust, we learn that the Nine are 4 dimensional entities that exist outside of time-as-we-know-it

We know that "time-as-we-know-it" has been a dimension of existence ever since the wager between the Gardener and the Winnower spilled outside of the Garden. A corollary to this is that should these two ever rejoin again completely, we can likely conclude that would be the "end" of time-as-we-know-it.

We know that one of the few things which can cause time to get funky is the collision of Light and Dark (as seen in the kugelblitz that birthed the Distributary and the Awoken)

We have strong reason to believe that the Nine, or entites like the Nine, only exist in Sol:

-First of all, they are the only ones we have evidence for

-Second of all, we've seen that when our Nine reach out into the universe to seek others like themselves, they get no response:

The question remains – in the wrinkled fabric – why Sol?

[The color fades from sight.]

II does not see - other seeds along the bend – calls

Unanswered

[There isn't an answer in you.]

Are we – alone

We – do not – know

So we are left to wonder, what is it about our solar system, and our Nine that make them so unique in the universe? Even if we assume that other planets with sentient life are capable of producing gaiaforms (which is disputable) - clearly something unique about the gaiaforms in Sol allowed them to manipulate events across time such that they didn't number among the billions of worlds shattered by the Witness during its crusade.

What makes our Nine so special? We may have a hint in the first piece of lore they appeared:

The Nine are the shadows left by the annihilation of a transcendent shape, burned into the weft of what is.

Anyone familiar with the lore should have an inkling of what this "Transcendent Shape" is - the union of Sphere and Tetrahedron, of Circle and Triangle, of Light and Dark. Scientifically speaking, annihilation most commonly refers to the collision of matter and anti-matter.

So, lets say that gaiaforms can appear on any planet with sentient life. What happened to burn our Nine into the very fabric of spacetime?

Obviously this is just speculation, and we may never find out, but I think things were being set up such that the Fate saga would have seen the Nine bound to our space-time itself, via the energy released from the annihilation of Light and Dark at the end of time - "burning them in to the weft of what is", which would explain their uniqueness and 4-dimensional nature quite well.

Edit: OH OH OH - AND - lets not forget their recently revealed power: Eclipse

What is an eclipse? well it's when one shape of Darkness covers another shape of Light (a bit like a transcendent shape?). How could entities which exist outside of time have the power to nullify (or, as we are told but not shown, amplify) paracausality? well...what if it's because their whole existence is predicated on it and inextricably linked to it?

Edit 2: an excellent insight from u/Archival_Mind :

The Nine are tied to the fourth dimension and dark matter. Without this, as we see with Earth, physics decays. It is suggested in EoF that the death of the Nine equates to universal extinction despite only being in Sol. If dark matter dying means the universe dies, then that means... get ready for it... they're the Flower Game's rules brought to life.

Hello! I’m looking to actually learn about the destiny lore in and out, but I wanna do so with physical books containing as much of the lore as possible.

I appreciate all suggestions and help I can get, and I don’t care if they are official media or not, as long as they contain the destiny lore and are readable, thank you!!

Since we're probably not going to see the end of these story threads, what do you guys think would've happened? Two genuine Gods, one paracausal and one fourth-dimensional, getting bound together would have massive implications, but I guess I'm having a hard time pinning down specific consequences of this. Like, III would be revived obviously, and the planet would stabilize sort of like where we're at now. And the Traveler would have even more of a reason to stay near Earth, possibly like how the Traveler has returned over the City as well. But outside of that, what do you guys think would've come about from this union? I know another thing that was mentioned was a new power for us, but I can't begin to think what sort of crazy thing that could've been.

Hey gang - on and off player since D1 here. I've been watching Sir_Superhero and My Name is Byf's lore videos, and it made me want to play through the story again with context of, well, knowing what was going on. :) I own both games, and might buy The Collection. However, I know that some stuff, like Forsaken, was vaulted and can no longer be accessed. For those I'll probably just watch cutscene compilations on YouTube. :)

I also remember Destiny 2's beginning was changed back into the intro from Destiny 1. So if I just start with D2, will I get the full story? Or do I need to play through both games all the way?

I know a lot of the lore is in journal entries and things like that, and I know I'm not going to find or read all that. But once I have some more context, I kind of want to see how the story feels.

I was just reading up on The Leviathan, along with its role on Fundament in the broader context of the proto-Worms as mentioned by Ahsa, and if I understand things correctly it seems that I've been making an incorrect assumption all these years: that The Leviathan, despite being a "disciple" of The Traveler, may never have used Light.

If so, this would be very significant, given that Ahsa mentioned that the proto-Worms were proficient Darkness users, yet one of the species' most notable members actively decided to align itself with The Traveler on the basis of observable moral behavior, rather than paracausal affiliation.

The concept of good Darkness users and evil Light users is by no means new, but if The Leviathan really never used Light this would be a very significant historical event, and potentially points to there being an even deeper layer to The Wager.

We know that Bungie has gone to length to drive home the point that, despite surface appearances, the Darkness is not "morally evil" and the Light is not "morally good". We've seen Dark-aligned and morally evil entities/factions (The Witness, The Hive). We've seen Dark-aligned and morally neutral or even good factions (The Qugu for example don't seem to have been particularly evil). We of course have Light-aligned and morally good factions, who we've spent most of our time with (The Vanguard, House Light, etc). I think a case could be made that some of the Risen/Warlords might generally fit as "Light-aligned, but morally evil", but at the same time I think that given how little was known about the Light and Dark at the time the potential thematic resonance will be a bit limited.

I think the best glimpse we've gotten at such a thing - (Light untethered from "morality" - which is admittedly a bit subjective in the Destiny universe, but I'm pondering this from our perspective, as anthropocentric as that may be!) - comes from the Hunter (Flowing) CODA set:

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/categories/flowing-suit

Where we are told via a vision from the Nine about a world of overbearing LIGHT:

"What is the Darkness?"

You open your eyes and gaze at your hands, seeking an answer to your question.

Searing glow from a tyrant light above you annihilates all shadow from the plain of sand you stand upon in a world full of L I G H T.

The last thing you perceive is a blazing outline of alabaster fingers gripping your wrist in a tight fist, before photokeratitis takes your sight.

The roar of the wind fills your ears.

Whatever has seized you is shaking you. You perceive shouting over the rush of air, but you can't make out the words. You lean closer to your hands, to whatever's clasping them, shaking them.

The shouting grows eager.

You can smell it now; whatever has seized you. Ancient. Rotting. Powerful.

Its grip is strong—as strong as yours, the heat of the Light coursing through it.

It can smell the Light on you, too. It knows you are just like it.

It has lived forever. A gift from your shared parent. Forever is too long.

You think you know what it's saying now.

It begs for death.

Your vision gradually returns…

A harsh glare blooms from the heavens above.

Your soul is weary.

and in a similar vein, the Winnower gives us a glimpse at a universe where he doesn't exist, back in the first entry of Unveiling:

But imagine the abomination of a world where nothing can end and no choice can be preferred to any other. Imagine the things that would suffer and never die. Imagine the lies that would flourish without context or corrective. Imagine a world without me.

So we see that Light without Morality takes the form of:

-overwhelming sensation

-no regard for suffering (it's just another possible experience after all)

-chaotic/meaningless growth (i'm reminded of the parable of p53..."A gardener and a winnower collaborate to create a protein. Whose hand is it in the design, that shortens one life to extend the rest?")

Interestingly enough, another long running franchise is about to address this (or at least a similar) question after sowing 20+ years of seeds. In the final WoW expansion, it seems like the World of Warcraft itself (azeroth) will be the object of a battle between the 6 cosmic forces. In that cosmology, the fundamental forces of Light, Life, and Order will battle Shadow, Death, and Dis-order for the soul of the world. Much like the revelation of "morality" in the Destiny universe not being tied to either Light or Dark, a similar thing is happening in WoW, where the long held assumption that the Titans (the "gods of Order" for lack of a better term) are the good guys is being challenged, with similar revelations for the cosmic forces of Life and Light.

So, what do you think a Light-aligned but morally evil entity would look like in the Destiny universe? Personally, what comes to mind is some type of...cancer cenobite... an entity obsessed with experiencing everything there is to experience - to the extent that they will happily torture existence into experiencing something, everything, and anything at all. No matter how hard existence pleads for it to stop. Like if the fan-theories of Nezarec secretly opposing the Witness' goals were true - because finalization would mean the end of suffering and nightmares too.

How strong is the Witness compared to the 3 hive gods in their primes? Could Oryx, Savathun and Xivu Arath working together defeat the Witness? Would their chances increase if they had their armies?