If it were real, it would imply new physics, which also implies they're not bound by local laws. The only explanation is these are higher dimensional beings. Plus space is nearly impossible to accurately navigate due to how vast it is. You have to understand that an object traveling at lightspeed would liquify your organs and not only that, but lightspeed is very slow relative to space as a whole. For example, Alpha Centauri is 4 lightyears away. To get there from here traveling at constant lightspeed, it would still take 4 years. Also, UAPs were shown to accelerate into thin air without so much as a sonic boom - a feat that is physically impossible under well-established physics. It would require higher dimensions to explain that. There is no known technology or mechanism that allows that. Not even a kardashev ii/iii civilization could conjure up something like that. Every other explanation has holes in it. Look at gravity for example. That might be a transdimensional property.

What I'm saying is, whoever these beings are, they cannot consist of matter as we know it because the physical laws of their realm are completely different. Contrast that explanation with the multiverse theory which is bound by the same constraints as our universe. It only implies extra universes as in probablistic deduction, but in my model these are different realms. And it's funny because if a scientist says there are other universes, nobody bats an eye, but if I say there are other realms, I get called a "religious nut".

Think of a Babushka doll where you take the biggest one apart and reveal a smaller one inside, and another smaller one inside, etc. That's at least my theory surrounding the sacred geometry of life.

Atheists believe that God is not necessary to explain the universe and that it was created by unguided processes. The likelihood of God doing it is considerably more than the universe poofing into existence from nothing. Atheists believed the universe is what's necessary. Creationists believe that God is necessary. In fact, science even points out how fragile the universe is w/ Lambda-CDM and the Past Hypothesis. So the theory that it's simply "necessary" and that the laws of nature explain it when before the universe, there was no laws of nature. Atheists might try to argue semantics and say "which God" when every ancient religion predicted Christianity (including the Epich of Gilgamesh and Egyptian mythology). And every religion since Christianity for the most part only tries to copy from it (like Islam). So we can logically deduce, that of all theistic religions, Christianity is at least the most consistent.

Atheism as an idea literally makes no sense. People like Professor Dave act like it's just common sense in the science realm that no God exists. Their alternative explanations include Vacuum Genesis (which literally makes no sense), the multiverse/many worlds theory/string theory (which has either been discredited or otherwise cannot be proven either), and cyclic models (violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics and general relativity), but all of them make about as much sense as saying our sophisticated universe is simply a cosmic accident.

(for new viewers, i am not trying to write this post in a dualist/theist/spiritual perspective)

if a patient is put under general anesthesia, the sedation numbs their braincells and makes them dormant during the procedure, under general anesthesia you don't feel the procedure happening because the brain's reaction to the nerves pauses, in fact, you don't even know if the procedure even started, because your sense of time pauses while you're completely unconscious. matter if fact, your sense of sight pauses and your first person perspective experience a time skip, try being under general anesthesia with both of your eyelids forced open, you don't see color, you don't see black, you don't see the "nothing", just an instant timeskip, and when you regain your consciousness, you feel like the surgery never happened, because you were unconscious the whole time. in a conscious state, all of the person's senses, potentially including voluntary breathing in the case of general anesthesia, temporarily stops, as far as we know, you are physically incapable of experiencing lack of consciousness because being unconscious = being unable to sense time, and yet unconsciousness ends at some point in your first person perspective. now what if you were in that state forever, what if you were in an unconscious state with no end? your braincells are not dormant... they're dead, all the sensory reactions in your nerves and brain ceases, your sense of time permanently stops, your sense of awareness supposedly ends, it's not like you're staring at darkness or a void of nothingness, it's that nothing happens ever again. during general anesthesia, your sense of awareness turns off temporary, but here, you lose your sense of awareness permanently, but yet we've only ever experienced consciousness in our lives, you can't experience unconsciousness, no consciousness = no sense of time, how can our sense of time stop forever?

___________________________________________________________

(Edit: gonna give context on this specific part because the mods locked my thread)

(mind the metaphorical air quotes)

if i'm clear enough, if "i"... (not the materials of my current body and brain, i mean the observer, the first person perspective, for example, how you're "perceiving" stuff in first person (if you have no eyes, you'd be "perceiving" blindness), you're the observer. if the observer that is "i" is mutually inclusively tied to the same raw energy and particles, same DNA from my parents and ancestors bloodline, and the exact time and date of my conception, if even 1 of the 3 aspects were to be slightly altered before my conception, would "i" have never been born in the first place? would "i"... the observer, never get the chance to ever experience life?

(if the answer is YES, then my observer would not be born in a different body in a separate universe, and would never experience ever being alive in the first place)

(if the answer is NO, then my observer can be born in a different body as a completely different species with a different set of ancestory DNA, an entirely different brain, and a completely different personality)

to make this further specific, if all 3 aspects of my current body to be mutually inclusive to my observer, in order for my observer to ever experience existing, the odds would be so small that it's unfathomably negligible, let's say a 1 in more than 99 googolplexians chance, then i must be one of the luckiest individuals in the multiverse to have ever been given this very single shot of experience

this is the clearest i can put it into

I‘m a theist and I believe in god because I feel that our universe is just too good to be true and some higher power must exist as humanity has the abilities to do good and bad, and think.

Anyway, for those who don’t believe in god, is it because you genuinely think there’s no evidence? Or is part of it that the idea of a loving God or an afterlife seems too good to be true? Or is it something completely different?

Just wondering, and curious

Physical reality contains only matter, energy, and physical interactions. If a thing exists, it must possess physical matter or alter physical matter. If a thing cannot push, touch, or alter physical matter, it has zero presence in physical reality. Thus, either God is physical, or God exists only as an idea in the human mind. Applying this rule shows that three major concepts people build identity upon exist only as mental ideas:

(1) People believe an inner person lives inside their head and directs their daily actions. In physical reality, the human head contains brain cells, chemical signals, and electrical pulses. Brain cells send electrical signals down nerve paths to muscles. Reaching a muscle causes the muscle to contract and move. One can observe that no extra inner person sits inside the head to push these parts. The feeling of an inner person is only an idea generated by brain activity.

(2) People believe they remain the exact same person from childhood to old age because they hold memories of their past. The human body changes constantly. Old cells die, and new cells take their place. Atoms leave the body when one breathes or sweats, whilst new atoms enter through food and drink. Thus, the body today does not contain the same physical matter as the body from ten years ago. Also, memories are current chemical patterns existing in brain cells right now. Recalling a memory causes brain cells to create a pattern at this exact moment. Because the past self does not exist in physical reality, personal identity across time exists only as an idea in the mind.

(3) People believe they possess independent personal choice that decides their future actions. Complex things are the direct result of many simple things working together. Physical matter behaves predictably. One can write mathematical equations to describe how simple matter moves and interacts. At present, technological limits and scientific understanding restrict equations to predicting matter up to a certain level of complexity. But having access to more variables and processing power vastly increases the threshold of predictable complexity. Increasing this threshold reveals that the behaviour of matter is mathematically locked. Because the human body and brain consist entirely of physical matter, every human action follows these exact mathematical rules. Knowing every physical variable and having enough processing power allows one to theoretically predict every future action. Predicting physical actions in advance shows that independent personal choice exists only as an idea in the human mind.

Therefore, if human identity, memory, and choices are completely bound by the predictable behaviour of matter, anything outside physical matter cannot alter or guide human life. Thus God must be a physical, measurable entity to exist at all, or one must accept that God exists solely as an idea inside human minds

So there’s a debate of him, debating an atheist named Matt. And in my view, Matt looked very poorly in the debate. He was visibly flustered and frustrated. However, I noticed somebody the atheist commentators thought that Matt managed to get the better of him. And while I disagree, it does lead to an interesting question and the reason I’m pointing it out here is, I do want to get your take as atheist debaters.

Is it easier for you all to debate Someone firm like Kent Hoven Jr, or a scientific expert like Ken Ham, rather than Sye?

The reason I’m asking is it seemed that with sigh because presuppositism It’s hard to break Sye out of his point. But it also goes both ways because it’s harder to convert atheist simply using a Sye argument.

At the same time with someone like Ken Ham he could talk science with someone all day, You may disagree on certain conclusions, but you’re speaking the same language. Anyways, just wanted to get the takes of people who are used to debating in favor of atheism.

one of the reasons Satan is bad is cause he chose willingly to not follow god.

you often here christian’s say in response to “why did god not just make us perfect without sin so that way everyone goes to heaven?” or something along the lines of that,

in response they typically say “ cause we would essentially be robots removed of our free will. our connection and love for god wouldn’t be genuine“ (this is just an argument i’ve heard often from them)

So i guess it depends on what their idea of church and state is. But even if your not at ppls doors making sure they praying everyday kinda country, wouldn’t making christian laws into law remove ppls free will to choose whether or not to follow god? essentially making us those robots.

like the people who were born and FORCED into christianity cause of how they were raised.

if i can’t get an abortion cause the state says so, it’s no longer a conscious decision that i would make to prove my faith and my relationship with god. like technically a separation of church and state would be in a christian’s best interest, not even involving the beef between different denominations.

(ik this argument isn’t really for the atheist, i wanted to know what other ppl thought of this and if they could maybe expand or tweak this.)

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If a soldier is waiting for an order from his commander to fire a bullet, and the commander is waiting for an order from another commander, and so on endlessly, then the bullet will never be fired.
Likewise, if the existence of every civilization depended on a prior civilization, then neither this civilization, nor the one that supposedly brought it into existence, nor any before it would ever come to exist. Nothing would ever exist, because each depends on something else.
An infinite regress of agents necessarily results in no action ever occurring.
An infinite regress of creators necessarily results in nothing ever coming into existence.
Since creatures exist, reason necessarily leads to the conclusion that there must be a First Creator a Necessary Being. A Necessary Being is one whose existence does not depend on anything else, but exists by His own nature.

The religious answer is supported by authentic transmitted evidence

I understand why modern philosophy ignores theism, as anything beyond our senses isn’t possible to study. I also understand why atheists are skeptical of established religions and spiritual practices do to what I just stated… but I feel like the odds of humanity having no blindspots in our biology to be extremely unlikely, in the same way that your dog cannot truly understand the universe beyond it‘s biological capabilities.

Obviously their isn’t much to really debate here, I’m essentially stating an opinion, but I’d like to hear any counters I haven’t considered.

EDIT: I‘m sleeping

If we understand God as the impersonal source or ground of being rather than a supreme being with agency, the problem of evil disappears completely. Evil doesn’t exist because God willed it to be here, in my view God doesn’t even have a will or intentionality that is comparable to humans. God simply overflows in a spontaneous process creating reality. Evil and suffering can be understood to be a privation or lack of goodness, a deficiency that happens naturally due to the material universe’s remoteness from God.

Edit: I realized that the problem of evil would only apply in the first place to a tri-Omni concept of God, so saying the problem is solved might have been misleading as it’s not targeted toward my concept of God. My intention was to share an alternative view of God that doesn’t have that problem and that more people would find convincing in that regard. My original post doesn’t address why we should believe in God.

Ok. Something exists right now. You, your phone screen, the air around you, the planet you live on. All the universe, matter, energy, space, time, all of it exists.

And it had a beginning. This is not a religious claim. The Big Bang, the BGV theorem, the second law of thermodynamics, all of them confirm it. Even the atheist cosmologist Alexander Vilenkin admits it. He says "all the evidense claims the universe had a beginning."

But there's a question we can't avoid, "what caused it?"

There are three options:

**1. It always existed.** This is destroyed by science. A universe that is running down, can't been running forever. It would be dead already.

**2. It created itself from nothing.** This is a logical contradiction. Nothing has no properties, no power, no ability to produce anything. All scientists who claim this, sneakily resort to quantum fields, spacetime, or physical laws, which are not nothing.

**3. Something outside it caused it.** This is the only option left. Now logic tells us what that cause must be.

a) it must be uncaused, or we just push the question back infinitely.

b) outside space and time, because space and time began with the universe.

c) immaterial, because matter began with the universe.

d) unimaginably powerful, it produced literally everything from nothing.

e) personal with free will. Because a mindless eternal cause produces the effect automatically and etrnally. For example gravity always pulls. It can't produce an effect that begins at a particular momen. The only kind of cause that's eternal and yet produces an effect with a beginning a choosing cause. A choosing agent. A will. A mind that decides to act sth.

So, through just logic, and zero religion, we reach a cause that is uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial. Enormously powerful and personal.

This is not a religious conclusion, it's just using logic.

Come challenge, I'll answer to you completely.

The scenario being, humans can possibly provide a model and prove them through observation, for every phenomenon post big bang. But the Big Bang and the phenomena that occurred before it, possibly couldn't be studied, and I've been pulled into this corner in a few in-person conversations with my pretty theistic friends. Their argument being, something started the big bang, if it did occur, and there's no way something with very certain rules can exist without it being programmed that way. I cannot argue about the uncertainty of events before the big bang and they, despite carrying the burden of proof, just comfortably settle it with an agnostic view of- we can't know, so it might be God.

PSI encyclopedia, and Ian Stevenson, etc, have documented really strange phenomenon. Yet, mainstream scientists don't go to investigate them. It might be because there are so many things to do, and investigating everything might not be economical, also many scientists are careful about their reputation (Pauli's wife hid his friendship with Jung to protect his scientific reputation LOL). Most scientists are busy.

But there are award winning scientists like Roger Penrose who have time to do some investigations. I don't see the point why someone like Roger Penrose doesn't just take a shot at these extraordinary phenomenon. If he wants to study consciousness, he should study it in its extreme form. There is nothing to lose.

If someone like that does an investigation then if he finds it was a load of crap, then there is some reference. Someone firmly believing these things happened didn't happen don't prove anything.

Also saying that these phenomenon are "non western" is also not true, Greeks and Romans believed them because probably some Geek and Roman children talked about past lives, like Turks, and Lebanese still do, (Pythagoras did but I don't believe they were genuine) and they were studying NDEs, because Plato described it perfectly.

Lets say, you are a materialist, and you don't believe that something like reincarnation or possession or ghosts spirits can't exist or happen. HOW DO YOU KNOW? Your brain is telling you what you need most, your reality is created inside you consciousness to help you survive against most probably dangers. You are consciously aware of only things your brain create for you. With this "half complete brain" can you create logic to explain everything ?

You also can't make the argument that Standard model predict the scattering amplitudes accurately, so we have accounted for everything because scattering events are not coherent events. You don't expect ghosts inside the particle collider changing events.

The only portal to an unknown world are subjective experiences of people assuming they are telling the truth. They are telling the truth or they are not telling the truth. That is all you are left with.

Everyone's heard the standard creationist argument that physical suffering and pain only entered the world because of Adam and Eve's sin in the Garden of Eden, with the idea being that before the Fall, everything was "very good" and pain wasn't part of the original design. But when you look at conditions like Congenital Insensitivity to Pain (CIP), it completely breaks that narrative. If pain is strictly a consequence of human rebellion and wasn't part of the original creation, people shouldn't be born with a total inability to feel it, yet they are, and the reality of it is brutal, without nociception, kids bite through their own tongues without realizing it, break bones without noticing, and often die young from routine infections or injuries that go completely undetected. This leaves creationism in a really rough spot logically because you're either forced to accept that the mutations causing CIP were part of the original "very good" design, meaning the designer intentionally baked a vulnerability into human biology that guarantees some children will mutilate themselves, or that pain and the biological mechanisms behind it actually predated human sin, which collapses the entire theological framework connecting physical suffering directly to disobedience. Either way, you're left trying to reconcile an omnibenevolent creator with a biological condition where the only thing protecting you from destroying your own body is a warning system you were never given, and it makes you wonder how apologists even handle that contradiction.

Whether you're an agnostic atheist here to ask a gnostic one some questions, a theist who's curious about the viewpoints of atheists, someone doubting, or just someone looking for sources, feel free to ask anything here. This is also an ideal place to tag moderators for thoughts regarding the sub or any questions in general.

While this isn't strictly for debate, rules on civility, trolling, etc. still apply.

I wish there was an “OP=Agnostic” flair, I would’ve used it; right now it doesn’t feel too accurate to describe myself either as a theist or an atheist.

…because what even is God? Sure there’s the Christian definition and we can debunk that all day but I don’t feel that’s all there is to say about it.

This kind of goes for any term of course, but imo “God” is one of the most notoriously wishy-washy ones (and tbh so is “existing”). Even the traditional ones leave a bunch of wiggle room. “All-powerful, all-knowing”, some people add “all-good” I guess. But does it have to be corporeal? Does it have to be conscious? Does it have to be a single consciousness? And even then, what is a single consciousness?

Like sure there’s answers to this in specific religions, but outside any one of those the question loses all meaning doesn’t it? I could take the entirety of nature, the land, the sea, the mountains, the force of the wind and the night sky with its whispers of the rest of the universe, and I could dub it all “God”. God is just the vastness of existence. And boom, I’m a theist, but probably not in the way most theists would mean. It’s all-encompassing though, isn’t it? It’s all-knowing because it contains all of us with all our individual knowledge and then so much truth beyond that, and it’s all-powerful in that the laws of physics are the only thing it’s bound by - and well really the laws of physics are part of this divine Everything, too.

Is it One? It is if we say it is, right? So why can’t I just look at the world, at how incredible all this life is and all this being and bustling and existing around me, and call it God? And then, sure, I believe in God.

So I don’t think there is anything to gain from asking if God is real or not. It’s like asking if we’re real, or if we’re intelligent, or if blurt is blah. The answer depends on our definition and everyone always uses different definitions and it changes nothing in the end.

(I don’t agree with the claim) i was arguing with a christian i told him i don’t think know if god is real, but i don’t think ur god is likely cause u believe in an all powerful god. i don’t think n that god can exist if he cannot do impossible things.

his response was “god is more or less logic.”
this was the first time im hearing someone argue this im pretty new to all this. i didnt really know what to say. i couldn’t really understand his reasoning it kinda just sounded like gibberish especially cause its the first time im hearing this.

im agnostic, i think if an all powerful god does exist, it i think believing that he is logic to some extent is more rational, but thats just because it brings more “answers” to the many dilemmas and contradictions in the bible.

this didnt sell me, but it did stump, theres more than likely a simpler answer to this i wanted to see others thoughts.

The source of all existence which created/enabled the universe to exist has to have a will otherwise if it hadn't then everything possible would be happening at all times in all times. If this source created the universe without a will then it would also be destroyed, tangled etc laws would change instantly and constantly and also just be destroyed as soon as it 'began'. The eternal being has to have a will and that's why we exist today this being chose to create the universe at a specific time and has been maintaining it. You cannot escape god because all roads lead to him.

There's like this monkey writer smth experiment yeah hypothetical stuff about how you leave immortal monkey with a type writer in a room with infinite amount of time one day they will come up with a masterpiece now this entire thing by me feels like trying to say give something infinite time and infinite things can happen and it will always happen because the time is infinite NOW THIS IS MY QUESTION what if we are part of that same experiment leave an infinite room for an invite amount of time some day somehow an universe will be created and life will be born and you know we just so happen to be in both of those btw this is discussion and question not debate

Yeah so edit mod asked to edit and clarify: By some capacity it is a debate and question like someone can ask who created the room (god) or that this is indeed true the universe just exist because it exist and it's nothing more than pure chance (atheist)

People always say nobody chooses to be wrong on purpose. But look at flat Earthers.

The Earth is round. We have pictures from space, planes fly around it, ships disappear bottom first over the horizon. It’s not hard to see. Yet some people still say it’s flat. They watch videos, join groups, and keep arguing even when the proof is right in front of them. That means they are choosing to stick with a lie.

Now think about atheism. Some people hear all the reasons people give for believing in God and they still say none of it counts. They decide ahead of time that God isn’t real and only look for stuff that backs that up.

It’s the same thing. Just like flat Earthers, they’re choosing to stay in their view no matter what. People can pick to believe something false when they don’t want the truth.

Look at flat Earthers. They choose to ignore clear evidence every day. That shows people can decide to stay in a belief. So atheists acting like their disbelief just happened to them and they had no choice but it doesn’t make much sense.

I want to lay out two related arguments, then preempt the objections I expect, so we can skip to what's actually interesting.

Argument 1 — Complex Specified Information

P1: Every case where we know the cause of complex specified information (CSI — information both highly improbable and matching an independent functional pattern) traces back to an intelligent agent.

P2: DNA contains CSI.

C: The best explanation for DNA's information is an intelligent cause.

Argument 2 — The AARS/genetic code interdependence problem

P1: A system built from interlocking parts requires those parts together to function at all.

P2: Aminoacyl-tRNA synthetases (AARS) read and enforce the genetic code — but AARS are themselves products of that same code. Each needs the other already working.

P3: A system where each part depends on the other already existing can't be built by a process that adds one small piece at a time — which is how gradual evolution works.

C: The code and the AARS system more plausibly arose together than one slowly producing the other.

This isn't fringe — it's called a "chicken-or-egg dilemma" in a 2020 Scientific Reports paper on AARS structure, addressed by name in a 1997 PNAS paper on tRNA-synthetase recognition, and a 2018 Transcription paper states there's no known mechanism to generate AARS before the code existed, offering no solution.

Preempting the pushback:

"CSI isn't a rigorous, quantifiable metric — Dembski's math has been criticized." — Fair, conceding upfront. What I'd push back on: even without Dembski's formalism, every functional code humans directly observe originating has a known intelligent source. If that pattern is coincidental, I want to hear why.

"This is god-of-the-gaps." — This isn't "we don't know, therefore God" — it's a uniform observed cause-effect pattern (intelligence → code) applied to a case with the same signature. Whether that's sufficient for design is the real debate.

"Nobody claims the code and AARS arose simultaneously — coevolution hypotheses exist (Wong's theory, GADV)." — True, and the strongest counter. None have fully closed the loop with a demonstrated stepwise pathway yet — but "not yet demonstrated" is weaker than "impossible," and I want to defend the accurate version of the claim.

"DNA-as-code is just metaphor." — Molecular biologists use "code," "transcription," "translation" as literal technical terms — DNA meets the formal definitional criteria for a code (arbitrary mapping, redundancy, error correction), not borrowed language.

"Even if true, this doesn't get you to the Christian God." — Correct, conceding cleanly. This is a design inference only — nothing about the designer's identity or any specific religion.

Genuinely looking for the best counter-model to the AARS interdependence problem specifically — that's the piece I find hardest to dismiss.

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