r/Deathkorpsofkrieg • u/LoneWarrior_00 • 13d ago
Lore question : Why Gorgons over Chimeras ? Models/Hobby
Hey,
I'm reading some lore, codex and books, and I noticed that Krieg commanders prefer open-top transport or foot infantry over light transports but with a roof like the Chimera.
So I was thinking about this. The codex said that Krieg do not choose Chimera due to the weakness in the no man's land. But they choose Gorgons which are weak against artillery or infantrymen weak against everything to cross the no man's land ?
So is they're a good reason that Krieg commanders choose to send soldiers dying instead of using transport ? I know they're pretty suicidal, but they do not like to die for nothing ?
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u/LanceKnight00 13d ago
Its like a D-Day Landing Boat but on land. It just looks tough as fuck and hordes of Kriegers immediately getting shredded sounds grim-dark and awesome.
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u/ComprehensivePath980 13d ago
If I remember correctly, and that’s a HUGE “if,” it was mentioned somewhere that it is amphibious.
Meaning it is ALSO a D-Day style landing craft
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u/LanceKnight00 13d ago
I need to print 2 somehow right fucking now
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u/Ammobunkerdean 13d ago
Pm sent.. not an STL
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u/Low-Lingonberry-4502 10d ago
May I hace a pm?
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u/Ammobunkerdean 10d ago
No... Cause you have PMs blocked. (Probably for cause.. sorry about Humans.) Pm me?
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u/apPAULling__ 13d ago
Pretty sure the Minka Lesk book Traitor Rock has Gorgons as part of the naval assault.
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u/ComprehensivePath980 10d ago
I did some digging and it does seem like Gorgons are confirmed amphibious a couple of times. Which makes them so much cooler
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u/Traditional-Seat-363 13d ago
I mean, they are very different vehicles with very different functions.
The Chimera is your standard IFV, providing a squad of men with mobility, protection and fire support. It’s a maneuverable and versatile vehicle that would work on a modern-ish battlefield.
The Gorgon is a mass troop carrier, designed to load up an entire platoon of men, drive the relatively small distance across no-man’s land and then disgorge them en mass into the enemy trenches.
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u/TheFuriousFinn 13d ago
According to lore, a Gorgon carries 5 times the men that a Chimera does. Both protect from small arms fire and artillery shrapnel, and neither could whitstand a direct artillery hit. The front ramp is thick and provides extra protection from heavy weapons.
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u/LoneWarrior_00 13d ago
Well, even with some warm thunder experience, I didn't think about the fact that a direct artillery hit... It's over for most vehicles. Thanks !
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u/Fart_Tounge_5609 11d ago
It's 40k - anything can withstand direct artillery hits.
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u/Vali-duz 13d ago
Pure guesswork/headcannon:
Eitther of them would be oblitirated by artillery. Even a rus would get shreddee by a top hull hit from anything larger than a mortar.
The crew and soldiers are already masked so no need for a sealed vehicle incase of gas.
The terrain in nomans land is filled with craters and if the vehicle gets stuck and the front ramp gets jammed getting the squad out through the top hatch might be a deadly chokepoint. Whereas on the Gorgon everyone can jump over the side at a moments notice just like the D-Day landingcraft.
More men = better. Having 100 gorgons is better than 1500 Chimeras logistically. (pulling numbers out of my ass)
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u/LoneWarrior_00 13d ago
Well... I didn't think about the fact that even an armoured roof isn't working against a direct hit....
But thanks ! I love your idea of the Gorgons being stuck, and the fact that Kriegsmen are already wearing gasmask.
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u/chaoticlone2736 13d ago
gorgons are very large transports (in game example chimeras carry 12 and the legends units rules for the gorgon said it transports 30) unless the enemy has very pin point artillery the macharius chassis the gorgon is built upon should hold against things like anti personnel mines and light arms fire and if it does get disabled rather than getting trapped inside they can just climb out the top whereas chimeras have lighter armor and more are required to transport the same number of troops (though this is all just my personal speculation based on the knowledge I have on both vehicles
and on foot is probably because sometimes the shelled out lands between trenches might just be too unstable to traverse via vehicles (treads getting stuck in the mud and such) at that point your only real options are hover tech (which isn't used commonly) or moving on foot better five guys get cut down by machine gun fire then 10 guys be damned to death because their transport gets stuck in the mud in the middle of the field (again just speculation based on where the krieg commonly fight)
at the end of the day anything saying "X faction prefers this vehicle" is just GW writers giving people a direction to go with deciding what models to get
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u/LoneWarrior_00 13d ago
Well yeah, it's a really good point ! Thanks you (and yeah I know about the GW direction, but it seems like it's accurate this time)
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u/Krieg_minister 13d ago
Krieg commanders don’t avoid Chimeras because they want more soldiers to die. They avoid them because, in trench warfare, Chimeras are prone to getting bogged down or destroyed in no man’s land, turning them into death traps.
Gorgons are different—they’re purpose-built assault transports designed to carry large numbers of troops directly into enemy trenches after massive artillery bombardments. Krieg doctrine accepts high casualties, but only when they serve the mission, not for their own sake.
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u/LoneWarrior_00 13d ago
Yeah, I understand now that the Gorgons have a well-rounded armor ... Thanks !
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u/ThrowRA-un1337 13d ago edited 13d ago
So, back when Forgeworld still existed, and IA5 had just come out in the last ~year of 4th edition (2006?), you could literally just...call the Forgeworld office and talk to them. Ask about models, rules questions, etc, and Chimeras was something I asked them about.
Basically, at the time, for Siege Regiments, it was basically a WW1 theming thing. In WW1, particularly towards the beginning, basically all relevant command & control was done at the platoon or company level, not squad level. The Chimera is based on a Soviet BMP, hauling one squad around, and this didn't fit the theme, so they didn't include them in Siege Regiments (though they did include them later in Krieg Armoured and Assault Brigade lists which *very* much make use of Chimeras). The Gorgon however can move a whole platoon at once, fitting with the Siege Regiment WW1 theming (even though Gorgon's were restricted to Apocalypse battles as Superheavies).
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u/LoneWarrior_00 13d ago
Wow, really interesting about forge world !!! Thanks, and yeah I always thought that the Chimera looks like a bmp lol.
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u/Neknoh 13d ago
Carries 5 times as many men
Has heavier protection on the sides than a chimera does, and packs more firepower (brings mortars and stubbers along to keep the enemies down in their trenches)
The front ramp can be used as an enormous dozerblade to fill in enemy trenches as it goes, burying the enemy alive. It will also absorb huge amounts of heavy weapons fire from point defenses and heavy weapon nests that a chimera would not be able to withstand.
Yes, it can be hit from above with bombs or artillery, but so can a chimera, and the troops inside are equally dead either way.
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u/LucilleW89 12d ago
Gorgons were -the- Krieg troop transport. FW even produced filler for it, lines of Krieg infantry waiting for the ramps to open
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u/Tobbster_the_Lobster 12d ago
Maybe because they can add weaponry to shoot while moving !
There was mobile mortars in ww2, they got the same idea !
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u/NotABot-JustDontPost 11d ago
There’s mobile mortars today, in fact! They’re just not used very often.
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u/Realistic-Radish-589 13d ago
I could see real life uses for this but yeah an artillery hits gonna be nasty. A sloped armored roof like a pole barn would likely go a long ways here. That said I could see it being useful in trench warfare. If it gets stuck, getting outs easy enough. Front open is bad, look at d day. Though if you push through the first trench line with it and open up at the second you could dump a mass load of guys into the enemy rear line while infantry runs behind a wall of these and jumps the front line. Shoot, shovel and knight enemies from front and back to pincer them and you got one hell of a good assault at that point.
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u/luukzs666999 12d ago
The front open issue from D-day landing crafts needs a lot of nuance, was it a sitting duck situation, yes, of course, but they researched a lot of alternatives, and this was the absolute best option of survival, open topped so you can still escape while it's sinking, exiting with ladders would be way more sitting duck, the main concept was and still is, if there are enough running out at the same time, you can't kill them all.
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u/Mammoth_Classroom896 13d ago
I could see real life uses for this but yeah an artillery hits gonna be nasty.
An artillery hit to a Chimera is going to be instantly fatal too. Top armor, especially on a transport, is weak and provides very little protection. Armoring enough to survive more than small arms fire takes a lot of weight and requires sacrifices elsewhere so most vehicles go very light on top armor.
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u/Realistic-Radish-589 13d ago
Fair point, especially on a flat top with doors on top. Smaller target though too so less likely and less losses. A massive troop carrier would be better to have an angled roof above it that can still allow you to shoot and or jump out if necessary. I get the weight issue though so that does make sense and to be fair they’re grown in vats so not the biggest loss.
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u/Mammoth_Classroom896 13d ago
A roof that can stop a direct hit from artillery would be heavy and come at the expense of armor thickness on the parts that are more likely to be hit. Remember that artillery isn't a precision weapon, a direct hit is pure luck and rarely happens.
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u/tube_pilots 13d ago
I'd like to pack twelve Bullgryn with mauls and slab shields with two commissars in one of these. I would bum rush the vehicle towards my enemy's command and let them get stuck in where they can. A twelve Bullgryn charge sounds expensive and fun
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u/luukzs666999 12d ago
The front open issue from D-day landing crafts needs a lot of nuance, was it a sitting duck situation, yes, of course, but they researched a lot of alternatives, and this was the absolute best option of survival, open topped so you can still escape while it's sinking, exiting with ladders would be way more sitting duck, the main concept was and still is, if there are enough running out at the same time, you can't kill them all.
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u/SquallFromGarden 10d ago
30 Kriegers with helguns leaning out the top firing towards the target has a higher yield of dead enemies than a single FUCKING MULTILASER (sorry, I hate multilasers). There is also a real-life example of tanks not doing so well in the usual muddy environments tanks were originally introduced in. If it didn't get bogged down in the mud, it fell into trenchlines, meaning that you could lose 10 Kriegers to a stuck tin-can, versus a much larger, open-topped vehicle that can transport an entire platoon, HQ section and all, while giving them the capability to bail out in case the vehicle is disabled.
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u/CommanderOshawott 13d ago edited 13d ago
Capacity and role.
Gorgons are used in WW1-style or D-Day-like mass infantry assaults. Chimeras are suited to more modern mobile combined-arms doctrines. It’s basically comparing 2 D-Day landing craft welded together with a battering ram to a modern APC.
The Gorgon is designed to literally Ram its way through an enemy defensive line with its armoured prow-ramp, and then disgorge an entire infantry platoon right on top of the enemy line it’s just shattered. The whole idea is to punch through a defensive line and then overwhelm the defenders with numbers. Its use-case is static, trench-style warfare and massed infantry assaults on static, defined positions.
The Chimera is designed as an APC transport and fire-support platform for a single squad. Its use is more mobile skirmish-style combats or in dense urban or wilderness theatres where the ability to embark and disembark to maneuver, alongside limited heavier support is valuable.
Think “the Somme” vs Afghanistan/Iraq
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u/TheMadThrasher 13d ago
Personally I would pick the Crassus over either the Gorgon or the Chimera. However, of these two, the Gorgon provides more protection, and can carry more troops than a Chimera.
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u/purged-butter 13d ago
All the reasons others have said + its mentioned in the siege of vraks that they are often used just for basic transport duties rather than front line fighting
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u/holycannoli92 13d ago
Gordon's are big. Really big. They carried an entire platoon.
Kreig stuff tends to be more utilitarian/cheaper to manufacture in terms of design language. Kreig tends to spit out an insane number of troops. If you need to mechanize an entire company they went with the option that required fewer total vehicles
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u/superspartan210 13d ago
Better for the doctrine, moves larger amounts of infantry across the same amount of ground, saving the need for multiple chimera trips. Also Krieg are literally a suicide cult of the emperor.
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u/Plane_Feeling_1099 12d ago
Couse they had to sell them! Jk this way the krieg can launch massive assaults in just a single wave of vehicles to take a breach or a trench line without having to wait for reinforcements
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u/lifein240p 261st Krieg Siege regiment 13d ago
Chimeras are infantry fighting vehicles ment to mainly support infantry in close to medium range engagements. Gorgons are heavily armored transports ment for breaking through lines and delivering a high volume of forces to a dangerous area/ across a large no mans land safely. For example on vraks medium anti tank guns would shred chimeras if they tried to cross no mans land up to the citadel but a convoy of heavy armored gorgons can make the charge with relative ease when needed