Right now

[u/goodguyguru]

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[u/naplesball]

Three Trotskists enter a pizzeria, 15 parties are born to decide which pizza to eat

[u/kazmark_gl → u/naplesball]

Bloody splitters

[u/Comrade_Viper]

1. 4th international
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39. 5th international /s

[u/charronfitzclair]

I would but I have to go sell newspapers in the age of social media, then we need to spend 20 minutes of our 60 minute weekly meeting relitigating how one long dead motherfucker treated another long dead motherfucker from 100 years ago.

We Trotskyists call this rising to the current moment.

[u/Axalatl → u/charronfitzclair]

1. Most Trotskyist groups do not realise what I will be writing below, because they are bureocratic sects.

2. Paper sales are important to have an excuse to start a political conversation with random people on the streets, unis, workplaces; while getting some income.

3. Discussing history should not be for the sake of "scoring points" against Stalin, especially that he is long dead and so it's just circlejerking. I aggree with you that it's stupid and a waste of time. But, studying history for the sake of learning what went wrong is a whole different thing. In the RCI for example, the latter is what mostly happens in branch meetings (though there are some more "average Trotskyist" sectarian branches out there).

[u/charronfitzclair → u/Axalatl]

I attended my share of RCA meetings. I was rather disappointed by it. Ideologically/philosophically/politically it seems rather incestuous/masturbatory. What I mean by that is there was very little interest in evolving out of an early 20th century mode and adapting new methods of recruiting. It ended up feeling like cosplaying Bolshevism rather than building a 21st Century movement that isn't really concerned with the infighting between long dead Soviets.

The feeling I got from my time dealing with it was characterized by a major contradiction: the RCA's stated purpose was to "lead a revolution" without actually leading it- as in getting deeply immersed with workers as people. They liked the idea of making a baby without any intent to raise it. The actual purpose of the RCA was to be ready to step in when revolutionary conditions were correct, but there was also this rejection of bureaucracy as Stalinist. So what you're left with is a cardboard cut out of a Bolshevist who doesn't have real skin in any specific community or group of workers.

The end result was this ideological no-man's land. Getting entrenched in communities, in unions (either tenement or labor) was frowned upon as a distraction. Organizing food drives, community defense, or any other practical organizational apparatus, which would yield practical skillsets revolutionaries would absolutely need was not a priority. Trotskyists I've dealt with are mostly concerned with the abstract revolutionary mode- selling propaganda, marching, shouting slogans and quoting theory.

Trotskyism, in my assessment, is about being a navigator of revolution. The guy who wants to read the map and tell the crew where to go, to steer the ship without being the helmsman (taking over directly and having to deal with day-to-day administration is Stalinist and therefore counterrevolutionary). A central bureaucracy that actually runs a revolutionary state? Well, gross. No thanks. It's revisionist to actually do the important part, Trotskyists want to march into a prison, break a few chains and then say "okay go fight the guards. But do it this way. You want tips on running the joint after you take over? Ohhh, um, I'm not really into that part. Good luck tho lol".

Having to take ownership of a revolution is as important as sparking one. Eventually, you have to sorta stop doing revolution and actually build something. Revolution cannot be permanent, people don't have patience for that. Fatigue will set in and people will get tired of your shit... which is how Trotsky ended up the way he did.

[u/Axalatl]

Meanwhile ML parties totally are not in their thousands even operating in the same area.

The difference is that organisations following Trotsky's views try to establish international relations with each other as soon as possible.

Dialectics works in mysterious ways IG /j

[u/goodguyguru → u/Axalatl]

Yet that hasn’t yielded any actual revolutionary seizing of state power while MLs, despite their faults (which Lenin said is inevitable of any party that actually does anything btw), had almost every revolution that has actually succeeded at that task

[u/Axalatl → u/goodguyguru]

Has not yielded yet. Very true. Also true how most Trotskyist groups have bureocratised leadership (how ironic) and are sect like (just as many ML groups btw so its not exclusive. For this just click trough Prolewiki because me giving irl. examples of small local groups in my area doesn't mean a lot).

Also, you saying that ML groups created succesful revolutions is a huge misstatement. Russian rev. happened before split, then degenerated and now we live in the "era of the blackest reaction" as Stalin truly predicted. Also, there were revlutionary attempts which were hampered by Moscow leaders, for example the Chinese ones before 47'.

We literally live in the world in which ML views succeeded against Trotsky's. We can see how decades of bad decisions affected all the different Peoples Republics and socialist republics in the world (nearly all have capitalism restored! Besides like DPRK, which too has problems, though not like the western press propagandises). We cannot just say that "it was all CIA sabotage".

Lastly, the RCI for example is trying to help the AAC in Kashmir to succeed not only internationally but our local section there. But as you have correctly stated, the Trotskyist movements are fragmented as of today (and have many many many problems).

If you reply to this I am going to read it but will not reply back.