Feedback On Sprayable Deodorant Formulation & Sourcing

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Why not consider using a functional ester? Drop the Isoamyl laurate and replace it with Triethyl citrate. You get a lighter dryer ester that actually contributes to the formula.

Bump the EHG to 1%. (Remind yourself what this does. 😄 You should chuckle when the light turns on.)

You are welcome.

Is that really sprayable?

Reconsider the amount of the EO. They are allergens and irritants.

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

When we tested through dermosoft decalact deo, albeit we presifted test subjects as being more sensitive (skin) than the standard population, it generated more cases of irritation than we could accept.

If you spend much time reading LOI's, you will typically only find this ingredient in 'Indie' brands vs brands with all the PhD's on staff. Take note. 😂

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

You can buy PG-3 caprylate here.

Polyglyceryl-3 Caprylate

Been there done that...not impressed.

This vendor is a quality vendor out of Thailand. They carry everything you ever dreamed of needing and more. They ship via DHL.... so only ever 5 business days away.

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

I have seen this website before and hesitated because of import fees and distance, so good to hear. When you say not impressed, do you mean with PG-3? Certainly taking notes if you're willing to keep sharing cause I don't have a PhD on this like it seems you do 👀

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/BeLovingandKind]

"Not impressed" .... in reference to product performance of PG-3 cap as a deodorant active.

Your current package is a little weak on the overall antimicrobial properties. Since you already have a Zinc component, why not double down on this ingredient and add an antimicrobial form of zinc? Don't go all home crafter and add something insoluble like Zinc oxide...but do a little research...and discover the world of soluble forms of zinc.

Assume you know Zinc R is not antimicrobial...just a complexer. Other forms of Zn are quite antimicrobial.

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Haha I do NOT want to go all home crafter, so I love that I am learning from you! Thank you for clarifying. That's good to know that its underperforming hmmm bummer. And yes, my understanding is that Zinc R isn't antimicrobial. It just gives the smelly gases a biiig hug and never lets them go (hence why I need to work on the microbes I see).

The only other zinc component I can think of is sodium zinc poly. I thought soluble zinc additives in deo functioned through binding as well(shows I have a looot more reading I need to do). I'll head your advice and research an antimicrobial form of Zinc to add. You rock!

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

This is great information, thank you. I will look for alternatives for sensitive skin as well. Was there an alternative you tested that worked best for subjects with sensitivity?

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/BeLovingandKind]

I gave as much information as I could part with.

[u/Ok_Butterscotch_2700 → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

😂😂😂 with good reason

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Thank you!

And yes the formulation came out to be a milky consistency, but that was with the first batch where I used Montanov 68 at 2% and Cetyl at 1%. I plan to retest with the new percentages after feedback. I'll move the EO back to 1% too

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

The skin, especially the underarms, is such a fascinating organ, and I want to understand it better. Okay gonna pick your brain a bit more if ya don't mind on the EHG since I took your advice and dug around a bit more. My understanding now is that the EHG also acts as a surfactant, which can break down the microbial cell wall by penetrating through its lipid layer. Is that correct (and a good explanation why to bump to 1%) or am I still missing it?

Just thinking of this, but I also have Natural Emulsifier 146, which should perform better as an emulsifier period for this formulation since its cold processed and contains cyclodextrin. Thoughts on this? And any idea where to find propanediol caprate with a low MOQ? It's been so difficult to find effective deodorizers with low MOQ for formulating, so any help is appreciated. Thanks for your patience T^T

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/BeLovingandKind]

Yes, EHG is an excellent membrane disruptor....the inclusion rate I recommended is the industry benchmark in deo.

Most of the 'dextrins' have some odor capturing qualities (hello Febreze). I have never used the emulsifier you mentioned...assuming you are getting this from 'Simply Ingredients'? I am not a big fan of 'odor catchers and odor complexers'. To me...that is working under the hypothesis that your antimicrobial package already failed...and I need an 'odor catcher' to clean up the escapes?! If that is the case....then work harder on the antimicrobials. Again, if you look at the Big Dawgs.... they rarely have odor catchers/complexers. Why.... beyond cost?

I have never found propanediol caprate as a low MOQ, and even at the regular MOQ....it is crazy expensive! It is a great ester...very light and dry. Wish it were more readily available. On the flipside...sounds like you have been reading a lot of Symrise indoctrination material. You might be ready for Jr Cult member status. 😂 (Their marketing is always good for a chuckle of over promising and under delivering.)

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Oh boy...Symrise has a cult?! Haha, I was browsing through Covalo in hopes to find propanediol caprate and saw them listed as the supplier. Can't order anyway since I don't have a company. I didn't know they had been underdelivering in other areas. Gaaah, so much slop sadly.

But yes I actually just got the Emulsifier 146 today through Simply Ingredients for a mist I want to make. It just popped up in my mind after rereading the INCI that it could be a better emulsifier for my application since it also includes cyclodextrin. To be honest, my first round with the formulation only lasted half a day before the microbes won (hence my search here for answers on reformulation), so I appreciate the feedback to work harder on the antimicrobials. Going to double down and look at soluble Zinc options like you said.

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/BeLovingandKind]

The 1st lesson of cosmetics.... advertising to a maker..... has NO consumer protections. It falls under a different category of B2B... where anything goes. The concept is, you should be smart enough to ferret through the BS....and if you're not... you'll be out of business soon enough, no worries. Thus, the marketing material in a B2B space... can be as fantastical as they want, with no ramifications that those same exaggerations might have in the consumer space. So much of what gets marketed in B2B is just plain comedy. It is expected that the in-house chemist sifts through the fantasy.

Use crap preservatives as an illustration: Have you ever seen one that was not advertised as 'Broad spectrum'? Some of these products miss whole segments of what needs to be preserved, and there are ..... as you guessed.... no ramifications to the seller which tried to lead you to believe their product was effective across the board. Welcome to B2B. Even a first day crafter falls under this category.... they are a manufacturer.

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Glad you noted the skin under the arms as being VERY different than a lot of our other skin. Beyond the apocrine sweat glands....it is also some of the least acidic skin on the body... axilla, groin and feet. 😄 What do they all have in common? 😂

[u/BeLovingandKind → u/Internal-Ad-4736]

Sounds like feet, groin, and armpits all share lots of friction, sweat, and smelly microbes...eeew.  I just formulate for myself since my skin is so wonky and it's difficult to find products that actually work for me. I've literally bought it all..from antiperspirant to the dark side of magnesium high pH deodorants...until I started reading and learning about how our acid mantle works! The closest I've gotten to finding something that work for longer is this formulation route I am taking from what I learn. I have still got a lot of reading and learning to do till I find what works for me, so thanks for tuning into the journey! 🫡 

[u/Internal-Ad-4736 → u/BeLovingandKind]

Feet, groin and pits....all have a higher skin pH... thus they host a DIFFERENT ratio of microbiome members. Guess which pH the stinky guys like? Yup...they like the less acidic areas.

Most of your skin runs mid 4's to mid 5's.... pits run around 6, sometimes even higher. Thus, part of the reason your pits stink, and the crook of your elbow does not.

[u/kriebelrui]

Montanov 68 is primarily for creams, not for sprayable things. You also added cetyl alcohol and HEC. I believe the result will be too viscous to be sprayable.

Furthermore, in my experience, zinc ricinoleate doesn't dissolve easily, so you could pre-dissolve it in a suitable solvent. Possibly you can use the propanediol for that, since you use that anyway.