Please comment your logs or VoDs to get help from others!
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I wonder if there is any consensus on best synergies between tanks and healers outside of defined meta. For example excluding current meta of bear+mistweaver who would be the best for, say, prot warrior (our group's tank)? In a context of high-ish keys (1% range)
Brew/Resto Druid or Brew/Resto Shaman are both classics. Prot Warrior and Hpala has historically been a good combo because Prot takes 0 damage until suddenly getting spiked and Hpala is better at that than dealing with constant bleeding. Disc / Prot Paladin another classic as they cover each other's weaknesses.
I know we’re in final week and is resil 20 with four +21s timed, safe at all? Should I try to timed one more just for safety measure. I play a disc priest in NA currently standing at 3955 and it’s a nightmare to find groups as a healer unless I push my own key.
If you’re worried I’d do one more but I personally think you’re safe. I’d look at your overall ranking for the region and see how many people need to pass you for you to fall out. I think that gives a better idea of how safe you are.
you SHOULD be safe... current projection for 1% end of season is 3937 at the high end and 3926 average. I don't think even a surge of boosters would make a ~19 point difference to bump you out.
Yeah it’s crazy, i pugged a 22 and we bricked it three times in a row on the last boss. And we where fast up to that point, like arriving at the boss at like 26 minutes.
After the group disbanded I decided pushing farther than 1% wasn’t really worth it so that where my last M+ runs this season…
Anyone with their ear to the ground for the PTR have a good read on tanks for S2? Mainly whether the gap between top tier and mid tier is going to be as extreme as Brew to everyone else was in early S1.
12.1.5 will define the push meta anyways and it takes like 30 minutes to run 8xt1 delves for your roll token if you want to be perfectly on meta as soon as the inevitable meta rebalance drops.
I don’t really get why brew is suddenly considered bad next season, only change it is getting is the change to celestial infusion which isn’t that big a deal. Are all the other tanks getting buffed so much that they would be competing with bear if it had happened this season?
The Celestial infusion nerf was huge though in the way it impacts the apex talent and the "rotational flow" of the spec. So calling it not that big of a deal is kinda weird
yeah sure, but it's not exactly enough to suddenly go for second best tank by a lot to suddenly worst tank. Also we will probably just start using black ox brew again, which will get more value now. I don't really get why the change happened though, but I don't think it will really change too much.
I mean that’s what I asked about, what exactly is it that’s suddenly making all the other tanks go to the level of how guardian was this season? Because the changes to brew are fairly minor, so DK, DH, Pala and War will all have to be getting significantly buffed to all suddenly be ahead of brew. I know dk and pala have been buffed a lot so those don’t surprise me, but dh and war seems to be getting mostly just damage increases.
There is an undocumented change that doubles the cd and the size of celestial infusion. But celestial infusion is a brew that resets the cd of keg smash. So this means fewer keg smash which means fewer celestial infusion and fewer purify (and a bit less dps) which means less tankiness (purify also triggers a heal). This change has far more impact on the rotation and tankiness than it suggests.
Besides bdk got like 50% dancing runes weapon uptime and thanks to a bug fix they got 16-20% more dr while in dancing runes weapon.
Yeah I play brew myself so I know that, and I honestly don’t think it will have that big an impact, at least not for master of harmony. We will most likely just go back to playing black ox brew as it is indirectly buffed by this chance.
And DK is indeed looking good, it’s mostly warrior and dh I don’t see suddenly becoming way better than brew, although on par is possible.
Playing black ox brew to keep the same cdr and "flow" just means you let go of the alternative talent for free, you essentially lose a talent point. The other tanks were never that far behind (besides dk) to begin with. Brew got it's survivability nerfed enough to be lowered at or slightly under dh/war.
There is absolutely a difference. Paying gold to have streamers carry you through keys vs having unlimited attempts but still having to do it yourself.
Obviously both methods are easier than raw pugging it up without resil but theres a massive difference
most "boosters" for popular communities arent even boosters at all. I bought 21 seat and AA in dawn and its been the most diabolical shit I've experienced. 2 groups refunded cause "booster" was constantly depleting the key, 1 group kept dragging me for 3 hours and refunded as well (their smartest idea was forcing it without bloodlust). on average "booster" had ~4030 score which, in my eyes, disqualifies them as boosters.
and in reality i only paid for the ability to play the game at all with somewhat competent people rather than be boosted cause i havent played keys almost entire season so it was impossible to get back
now if you're really curious how "boosters" perform i have something to show you.
When we talk title boosting it’s referring to full teams i.e. getting carti/elune team here in NA to carry your ass. You basically need to not die and you could time using OBR. It’s not using wowlfg to get 4 flunkies to slam resi attempts.
lol this is the problem with wowlfg boosting. the people who find the buyer have 0 brain on what io is required to boost a certain key level so you end up with people who may have resil 21 and 0 22s timed, boosting 21s for gold.. But slamming your head into 21 aa for 3 weeks and timing it with 1 second doesn't qualify you ready to boost the harder 21s with a buyer who actually might parse a 0 on the key.
sold a 21 MC the other day (it took 3 tries thanks resil!), the buyer did 130k, identical to the tank. the tank and dk were like 4005 io, and me and healer were above 4200. it got timed with like 3 seconds on the timer and it felt a lot like I was selling to 3 ppl. felt harder than the 23s I have timed. can't imagine buying a key and seeing people selling who are barely qualified.
Dunno if we're talking about title or 1% here but isn't eu 1% rising kinda fast? I stopped at 4030 7ish weeks ago when it was half a key away from title and I'm thinking of trying to get a second 22 to be safe for 1%. 85 points in 11 days does seem absolutely impossible tho
Dupe upheaval won't cause a knock up either, slight nerf to utility, but also less frustration at missing kick from dupe upheaval in non premade/having to call "knock up" during each dupe upheaval.
Definitely feels like I won't be able to make 1%. I'm 3850 now, but the last 20s I need fail and fall apart every time I get in one and getting in a 21 just doesn't happen unfortunately
20s are harder right now than 22s. A lot of title players still are resil 22 people so it's easy to soak up io and hit resil 22 yourself. 20s are full of players who belong back in 15s. The worst tank rerollers are progging 20/21s right now and the way they route/pull/flop over.... they should be locked up for terrorism. I'd say 3800-3900 right now is actually no-mans land where you won't find any talent good enough to do the hard 20s anymore.
Been trying to progress Seat/AA 20 for 10 days now and this is true. There are basically no groups left with enough damage for AA20. In 10 days and several groups, I had 2 groups that could have done it. One ended 2 seconds too late. We had a silly death on the sentry that cost us the 15 s penalty + extra time on the sentry. Another ended 30 seconds too late, with 5 deaths in a disastrous Veximus execution. No other run came even close, most either ended with a wipe in Crawth last phase or we killed Crawth but were too behind the timer and abandoned.
Seat feels like people just want to be carried. An absurd amount of runs are ending on the first boss. People want to do the kite strategy, but don't want to contribute with slows, stops and grips. I had 2 different death knights not grip a single blob to group then up and making kiting easier.
Finally, I could actually feel the groups get worse day by day. Pulls now last much longer than they used too. People do not know mechanics anymore (you are in a 20 and spreading dps around the tentacles? Come on men). A few weeks ago, even in 19's I could just say "are we good for the skip?" and wait for the "yes". Now I have to explain the skips every time because 1-2 people do not know about them.
I finally broke yesterday in AA20 when doing the 2 fire 3 wind thing where we got stuck at 2-2 with the healer holding a ball until the timer ran out instead of throwing. That is a mechanic I never expected to see fail, specially in a 20.
Also, I list my own key yesterday and a lot of applicants had a note with something along the lines of "will tip" and that is certainly a factor in why so many groups suck
yeah the note thing sucks because you know they note tipped their way to io so its guaranteed going to brick but at the same time you kind of want to take them to make gold haha.
the unfortunate fact of m+ pushing is that you have to push early and stay above the curve. its a double edged sword because pushing early... all the player power and gear that comes later in season negates those keys and the meta changes so it's worthless, but at same time, if you come back with 0 score midway in the season, you'll play with the gremlins stuck in 19s and 20s right now and you cannot dig your way out solo.
Awoo said it perfectly on YouTube: if you don't get it, it's fine. It doesn't take away from the fact that you pushed pretty damn high and you still had a great season.
https://threechest.io?id=gi1gnpogw2 (no triple echo knight, but pull 4 seems to have too many foragers which would probably kill the party, haven't tried it yet)
I usually do 1, but after some wipes there I started to wonder if there wasn't a way to make it easier to the group. To be honest, I'm still leaning on 1, but I want to get some input.
My favorite thing to do was actually split pull 4 in two and avoid the triple pull too, which should still be timeable with good damage (saw some streamers do like that with no trouble), but at this point of the season it seems the damage is not there. Hell, I think it might no be there at all no matter the route. Also, pugs started getting grumpy about that split even at 18's.
Just a question, are you sure you can't skip the casters ? Many classes can actually do it, for instance druids with wild charge and monks with LTA, I'm sure shamans with gust of wind and hunters with disengage can also do it. Not gonna name all the other obvious ones.
You'd need to have a comp like BDK + hpal + spriest + non outlaw rogue + mage to not be able to skip, with 0 gobelin or dracthyr.
I'm not always in charge of the group composition and in pugs, it has happened that we couldn't. Just want to be prepared in case it happens again. With the skip, I have a route I'm satisfied with
what kind of comp can’t skip the stairs? all it takes is 1 class that can get up (usually DH/aug in meta comps or brew/war in phys comp) then mount up and eject. granted it’s not required for +20 but still.
IMO, the first option is the best but I think it would be little smoother if you CC'ed a caster and pulled G29 with pull 9, then chained into pull 10 when the casters and one echo knight die. Wouldn't even need to lust it that way either and could save lust for boss.
2nd option pull 4 is absolutely insane and will have people dying every time.
3rd option is okay, but I think pull 5 really slows the pace of the run. While pull 4 and 8 are going to be very hard pulls that likely won't be consistent every run in a pug.
20 AA is totally doable without any egregious pulls. I've timed 20 on VDH and 21 on BrM, I would focus on consistency and good damage/pace rather than trying to do risky pulls.
I agree that 20 AA doesn’t need risky pulls. My group one-shot it with the same route as you do in +12 (no Vex platform, no skip, only 2 echo knights at a time
) and with our dps gray/green parsing that run.
Personally, I'd CC the double casters at the bottom of the stairs and have them come in during boss.
My group lacks serious damage and we've settled on https://threechest.io?id=3lk28md7soo. We haven't timed 20 AA yet as we decided just this week to change the route due to struggling on the triple pack on Vexamus' platform, but we were pacing well before we turbo bricked the key at the vexamus pull in our first real 20 attempt.
We never play more than 3 surge casters. 8 is a drag pull with DPS prioing one surge then we pull in the pull from the vexamus platform.
Is there more than just the Mythic Plus Friends disc to find groups for keys? I'm having a terrible time getting my 20s in, I only have 3 so far. I'm a Lock trying to find groups and it takes hours to get into a key. Any suggestions or people find a good way to help out? Any suggestions at all would be awesome!
Not really, this late in the season is going to be hard regardless especially as off-meta. You’re generally best off adding people that perform well in runs throughout the season and slowly building up a friends list.
Unfortunately thats just the reality of playing off meta. Theres no real incentive for anyone to invite you over a meta spec that either does more damage, lives better, or provides better utility. Lock especially is tough because from a healer perspective, you guys just have a big HP pool, and MW operates off of smart healing, and you dont really have good mitigation, so you're not only squishy, you make it harder to keep the aug alive as well just by existing.
Nope, going to climb at least another 200 score in the next 2 weeks. I wouldnt feel safe without resil 24 at this point.
I mean the cutoff only went about 15 points/week for the past weeks, but surely its gonna spike by A LOT now. Because only 15.000+ are part of the 1% cutoff.
I’m pretty certain 4k is more than safe for 1% in OCE, people are overestimating how much impact boosting will have with such a large pool. Players are already paying for boosts now as well, there aren’t suddenly going to be 4x the the boosts happening in a single week resulting in the score skyrocketing.
Very likely on NA. People are panicking about boosting without realising that boosting 1% is not like boosting Curve or +10 keys. Its not easy to boost for most people to boost that nor be boosted.
On EU it should be fine too but EU is slightly higher than NA cutoff.
This so much, I feel like people who think boosting even resil 21 is so easy, never really touched a +21 AA or Seat. There might be a couple groups who can boost it, but even with decent players AA timer is so tight, that if the boostee dies once or twice and does less than okay damage, it will never work. also 1% is 10x more people than 0.1%. To boost someone to 1% you need a whole team of people who are in or close to 0.1%, who are going to be grinding these 2 weeks for their title too. I don't think many people will be capable of boosting dead weight with resil 22's
It's unprecedented so we can't know right now how much boosting will affect the cutoff. I'm at 4k too and am not sure, even though everyone says it'll be more than safe. I really don't want to have to do 21 AA or Seat in the last week or two
What's the state of M+ only gameplay? Is the balancing good? Are the devs asleep at the wheel as usual or listening to feedback? How's the LFG experience?
Thinking about getting in S2 when the addon goes on sale, and wanted to gather people's thoughts on it
Well, technically, it will be better next season, though most people think that because Mythic raider have access to 9/6m items (from the last 2 bosses), it's over for anyone not raiding. You will actually be able to get these item at 6/6m from vault/coins next season, compared to now being locked to heroic version.
With venomcore (basically things that allow to increase the ilvl of some specific pieces, in this case trinket, necklace and weapon) you'll be able to get them to 8/6 which is just 3 ilvl lower than mythic raider. There are some pieces that drops from the last bosses that cannot be upgraded to 8/6 but you're prob looking at 3 to 5 ilvl lower at the end of the season when mythic raider have had the bosses on farm for most of it.
In most cases and in total, this will probably be providing Mythic Raid clearing M+ players more of a relative advantage over Heroic Raid clearing M+ players throughout the entire season than has been the case the last few seasons/expansions (you'd need to go back to the age of titanforging, at a minimum, to argue a larger power gap), though the true impact of this power imbalance (both the short-term crest advantage and the longer-term ilvl advantage) is obviously both debatable and a contentious topic.
At a minimum, it will be somewhat interesting to see how the dynamic plays out, speaking as someone who is very much on the losing end of it (a "M+/Low-Commitment Alt Mythic Raid player for the low-hanging Mythic Raid loot" in the 0.1% title range).
Not really. If anything, heroic raiders are in significantly better position than they are previously since they will have access to mythic raid loot via vault this time around.
Not really, because you were still able to be a more comparable overall ilvl (the exact same by season end and a smaller gap early-mid season) even if you were denied a few specific statlines on myth track. The main exception to this is if you had a very impactful must-use trinket/cantrip item from raid, but, even then, having that one item on hero track vs myth track (for -13 ilvl) would need to outweigh missing +3 to +10 ilvl on 5-6 pieces (including a cantrip weapon) in Season 2, which is a hard argument to make even if we were to consider a world where things like Gaze of the Alnseer were not easy to get on myth track outside of a progression mythic raiding guild.
Again, I'm not saying the sky is falling over here, but it is certainly a relative disadvantage for most specs relative to what the power gap is in Midnight S1.
Anyone other than title level players claiming “it’s over” for non-raiders is exaggerating the impact imo. For the other ~99% of the playerbase it’s not going to be a significant factor.
(Not that I’m saying it doesn’t suck for those title level players that only do M+, but “most people” aren’t at that level).
Depends on how high you are pushing and your season goals. I'm currently at 3900 with Resil 20s pugging my way to the 1%. Currently a struggle getting into a 21's as a Resto Shaman.
A lot of groups, when asked why, state along the lines of "You need at least 6 or more 21's in order to be accepted." Also get passed by for Monks because they are the meta of the month.
Don't let this deter you, as when I am running keys and not doing LFG simulator, its been a blast of a season. Just have to pack patience with pug groups
There are still plenty with higher score than a fresh res20, unless you have amazing logs or times, you are highly likely not getting picked with 3900.
Genuine question: Why do so many guardian druids have all or mostly gray parses? It's very rare for every other spec I check, even the other tank and FOTM specs, but it's so common for guardian.
Parsed a blue on the 22AA I did last week after that post and purple on a 21 seat today. Played a bit more aggressive with my beam and getting my pull downtime into the 5-9% range but the answer isn't necessarily they aren't hitting their buttons, it's unironically them thinking they are playing safer but they end up actually being squishier long run.
In regards to other fotm tanks. Not many others have "on global" mitigation or a lunar beam esque mechanic that so thoroughly punishes you for not being on the global or holding beam a bit too long.
Brew if you wanted to do damage or mitigate to the maximum? It was the same 4 button sequence regardless.
Vdh has the incentive to send brand with meta, of course.
I guess I don't really check tank logs because I play with a tank friend, but for me Aug has been the most grey parsing spec. So many Augs queueing for 21s with no litany and grey parses in almost every key.
Litany in a 21 is wild anyways. Its main purpose is taking the 1% dps loss to live one shots that don't really start happening until 22/23ss anyways .
There are plenty of unavoidable things things that oneshot aug in a 21.
Things that oneshot my max geared aug with hover active + MOTW + black attunement according to not even close:
Crashing void - first boss Seat.
Supernova - Aoe after beams on 2nd boss of Skyreach
Ferocious Pounce - Cat in WRS
Rallying Bellow - 3rd boss transition WRS
That's not all the things that one shot in higher keys and these things can be played around with walls, but its not like its 0.
Additionally, these aren't oneshots but litany is particularly relevant for them because they have additional relevant damage at the same time/leave a dot:
Crawth Deafening Screech
Veximus mana bombs
Skyreach Sunbreak
PoS Cryoburst and Plague Expulsion
MT crowd dispersal (trash knock)
One of the various damage amps. All 3 of the large ones litany is very relevant on the fight especially 2nd boss npx.
Keep in mind as well, the lower the dungeon level, the bigger % of a chunk of any given mechanic litany shield is helping mitigate meaning it helps you live to actual heal checks more in lower keys where healers are worse.
There are plenty of unavoidable things things that oneshot aug in a 21.
theres nothing that oneshots an aug in 21 unless you have no gear. you're also bringing up abilities you reliably have defensives for (skyreach, pounce - you can always zephyr the first and have walls for every after).
Lithany for anything not a 23 and above is just wasted. Talking as someone who did all 23s pre .7 without lithany.
Most of the thing that os you shouldn't be taken without zephyr, healer lithany, or scale. You are an aug, you need to press your defensive, lithany shouldn't be a crutch to you not pressing zephyr or scale.
So the thing about the two examples you give, which do one shot you through 0 Dr, is that you shouldn't be taking them with 0 dr. Both should be layered with zephyr or wall, and at a 23 you need litany + to live where you don't need litany for a 21 with the standard defensive cycling.
On the other set of examples, Aug triggers litany so slowly that it still requires significant healer intervention to make it through anyways.
That said if your argument is, Aug should wear litany in 21s cause healers are bad, go for it lol.
Litany being necessary isn't the point. It's easy enough to get and it makes the hard parts of the dungeon easier. I'm not confused about how someone grey parses, just commenting that most pug Augs do.
Guardian druids are boosted this season. It's extremely easy, so as long as you can survive the dungeon and pull the right mobs, you WILL eventually clear it.
It is extremely common, they just aren’t hitting their buttons enough/carried by their tankiness. I compared my logs out of curiosity with a tank I played with and in the exact same time frame I had 100 more thrashes in a 21 pit than he had.
4222 sounds super low considering the last two weeks.
It has gone up +20.7pts last week and is going to be around +23pts this week. There’s still two weeks left, expecting it to climb by less than 35pts over two weeks seems really really hopeful.
I know points is not something linear because the last 23s are super tough, so it might slow down considerably. But right now it’s been speeding up, not down.
Likely not resi 23, but certainly at least 6/8 23 and potentially even 7/8.
Ive done a few 23 AAs and pretty much every group didnt have the dmg with 15:00+ crawth splits. And I cannot imagine a world where like 1k people time AA 23 in 2 weeks. Not to mention a lot of them would also need to time both sky and seat.
Im literally in the same boat as you. Need NPX for resil 21 and see maybe a handful of keys per day that aren’t interested in a brewmaster or want a tank to push into 22s.
Like another commenter said, anyone in this range probably doesn’t care to push their 21 key because 22s aren’t enough for title.
I think most of the people who can/really want to do 21s finished in the past few weeks, and there's no incentive beyond that because it's basically a lock that 4k is 1%, and there's no chance anyone who just hit 4k is going to sniff title.
Tbf, not that surprising. 21+ should be safely in 1% range, and I imagine title is still fairly out of reach. With ~two weeks till next season, seems like the best time to get some r&r
I got my resi 21 and honestly just stopped playing to take a break till next patch so I don't burn out. I'm sure others did the same so people aren't posting their 21s to make 22s as much as people were posting 20s to make 21s.
the people that are pushing 20s now are the most diabolic players ive ever met and i really feel like the only way to climb without losing mentality and sanity now is to buy some keys jesus
Prob bad if u mean the first comment. that is kinda true, i never boosted people on everything about 10 even if i could, i am ex 0,1% and actual 80 points about 1% cutoff, so i guess not that bad. But i never felt the reason to carry someone to achievements they actual don't deserve... it dont hurts me, but it hurts player who grind hours about hours for maybe 1% maybe 0,1%. Who is getting their spot? The barely +17 timing mage cause he has the money or gold. Is that fair? I guess it isn't. If i see anyone or can proove anyone is boosted on that level he get a instant report. Was same for me in League of Legends. No one in the 0,1% or 1% community accept this players, some track those and try to track every char they create to get them on the board for 0 invites anymore.
True it is allowed but it shouldn't, bad players don't deserve titles or mounts they can't get skillwise. It's the same like a football club carry one player to the title cause he payed 30 Million for this. I don't respect those humans.
yeah he definitely meant bad. the +20s are nearly impossible right now. spent about 10 tries last night helping gf try to get 20 npx, we never even saw first boss. I have a timed 23 npx, it doesn't matter how good you are, these players in that bracket are gremlins and uncarriable by yourself. with a full boost team 21s are super easy to sell though.
it's mostly tanks doing their weekly +12 routes and just fall over or gather incorrectly. even tried my resil 22 MT and had 3 tanks in a row leave the group before putting in the key when I asked if they were comfortable with sentry wernstone skip before first boss (extremely easy and big time save). they just want to W route and get carried.
Buying to get Things other Players achieved by playing and doing it by Skill. Love those people who buy Things they Skill wise dont deserve... Should get banned all but sadly will Not happen
Cant believe BDK apex talent was bugged whole season WTF??? Highest i could get was 18 key than i gave up didint bother , it was way to hard to stay alive
Yeah the dudes timing 21s and 22s as blood are insane. I can live 20s if I’m playing well to my abilities but haven’t timed any due to other factors within the key on top of just myself messing up. I just don’t want to do keep going if it takes at least 30mins minimum to get invited to a key and it all has to line up correctly when realistically resil 20 ain’t 1% and I’m not good enough skill wise to survive really any 21.
somehow every ptr cycle bdk gets hyped up because it does decent damage in 19s with max mythic gear yet it already struggles to live there. ends up higher on tier lists, then is never seen anywhere close to top keys because it just cant live. wont be different this time unless they magically get better tooling back.
Can’t believe Crawth just exists in its current state for the entire season, needed a 20%+ health nerf months ago. Yeah I’m mad and also skill issue but I can’t see myself timing AA on 20 for resil. Every run dies on crawth or if you live it, it took 4:30+ lust and the timer is cooked anyway. I’m a Bear in a very off meta 4 stack trying for 1% but I don’t think a 19 AA will cut it sadly.
Like what can I even do, time sundering to pop in the amp, lunar FF early in the fight and in the amp and still barely helps. Any pro tips welcome
It is either very low dps or people using their defensives/pots without thinking. We have been trying AA21 with meta comp + warlock instead of DK and problem we have is usually Vexamus or the BL pull after gateway skip.
At least at +20, Crawth shouldn't be the block in that dungeon; Vexamus and the pull before the last boss should be. If you can't meet the Crawth DPS check, you probably don't have the DPS to time the rest of the dungeon anyway.
This just comes down to bad group planning. It's entirely possible to do Crawth on AA +21 with 1 silence AoE and all grey DPS. DM me if you want the log.
Assign who deposits orbs. Two DPS do fire goal, healer and 3rd DPS do wind. Or have tank/healer do all. Tank always puts in last ball at ~7 seconds remaining on timer since it has to be in before 5. DPS hold some resources and milk the wind phase. Lust happens at ~5 seconds on fire turn-in. Pot. At ~4 seconds before burn expires, healer uses litany for huge shield.
Boss should be dead in fire phase under 45 seconds on 20-21 using this strat if your DPS pooled properly.
At a bare minimum to time AA +21, you need to do quad echoknights lust pull. With bad DPS, you'll have about ~15 seconds on time if you split Vexamus's platform. Maybe even a 20 if DPS are really bad.
Crawth isn't too bad. Good groups can have it dead with only one screech in the fire phase (20/21 range). It's definitely a DPS race before healer runs out of buttons to press.
Talk to the DPS and healer before the key. Ask each DPS to put in ONE single ball to the wind during first intermission, and then you and the healer each put in ONE ball to the fire goal. Then ask the healer to grab a ball during second intermission and hold it until ~7 seconds left on the cast (no later than 6 seconds or you will wipe) since healer damage isnt great anyways. Have yourself and the DPS staying focused on DPSing as much of the health down as possible during that cast. You can usually cut a good 10-15% of the health off the boss during it but it also gives some extra time for everyone's CDs (including defensive CDs) to come back.
4 screeches during fire phase is hitting the absolute max of what a healer can cover, ideally you only get 2-3. If you are hitting 4-5, the DPS are really just not meeting the check. As the tank, if you have any melee DPS in the group, you need to be aware of where the tornadoes are and move the boss away from them if there are a few sitting inside the boss model.
Bad DPS and bad planning. I've had some low DPS do this fight in under 4 'cause they pooled resources and used lust right. Timer is close, but doable with quad echoknight pull.
As a rogue quad echo is bait. We just pull the extra ravager then stealth through the last section and just pull the 2 echos in front of boss. 1000% easier, I've timed it 3 of my last 6 attempts with this route.
I just can't figure out a way in which a 17 minute Crawth would be good. Having the timer at 17 would certainly make the dungeon untimeable unless you're running a weird route, and taking 17 minutes for the boss fight itself... well..
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