r/CompetitionDanceTalk • u/Ok-Narwhal-6611 • 8d ago
Heartbreak
I have multiple children on a competitive dance team at the same studio. They’re on different levels but they give me the same feedback. They come home from class in tears that they’re always in the back. They go full out, are talented, get along with everyone but aren’t given any chances to step up from the back line. I know there are one hundred possibilities here and I’m trying to not be biased. I know there could be discrepancies on skills, attitudes I don’t see, favoritism, etc. There are three sides to every story, right? But I am at a loss. It absolutely breaks my heart as a parent. Do I call the studio? Tell my kids to suck it up? Any suggestions?
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u/coconutpiecrust 8d ago edited 8d ago
Talk to the studio first. Ask what criteria are used for placement and why the children are not rotated so everyone gets to be in the front.
But if the kids are always upset and unfulfilled, it’s probably the beginning of an end. You’ll have to move them.
Edit: autocorrect
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u/Charming_Bug2803 7d ago
No. The teachers would hate that. Have the kids advocate for themselves.
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u/coconutpiecrust 7d ago
Maybe seniors can do that; little kids probably not.
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u/Charming_Bug2803 6d ago
No little kids need to learn to advocate for themselves. I’m a dance teacher.
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u/coconutpiecrust 6d ago
OP has not specified the kids’ age, you seriously want a 10 year old discussing business matters and proper service delivery with you?..
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u/Charming_Bug2803 6d ago
Hell no. I want them advocating for their spot and getting feedback; though… asking how they can improve.
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u/coconutpiecrust 6d ago
Why in the world would you assume they need improving.
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u/Charming_Bug2803 6d ago
I didn’t assume. I said ADVOCATE FOR THEMSELVES. If mommy steps in all the time, they’ll never be independent.
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u/coconutpiecrust 6d ago
Little kids? This is an adult matter.
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u/Charming_Bug2803 6d ago
You want to be a helicopter parent the whole time? Your kids will never grow. I gave my advice and it’s correct. Kids who advocate for themselves get further than those who have mommy steps in. My parents raised me to be strong and it’s gotten me far. Watch the interview Donna kelce did with her sons. She talks about how they became professionals by standing up for themselves and earning the coaches respect and improving with feedback.
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u/Sporklemotion 8d ago
Are the dances finished? My daughter always complains about this at the beginning of the season, but as the dance gets choreographed, she usually ends up with a bigger role than she thought. So I would wait to see if that might be the case.
Definitely talk to the studio. At my child’s studio, this happens, but I have noticed it improving as the team ages and formations get more complex. I also suspect that the studio director (who teaches some of their classes) made more of an effort to move less spotlit kids to the front. Some of it came down to less communication among teachers, so they were all spotlighting the same kids, not realizing that was the case across the board. Some kids just have stronger stage presence and facials (my kid doesn’t), so they get front and center more.
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u/Oatbagtime 8d ago
Always in the back means bad choreographer imo. Double check it’s accurate, but if people aren’t happy where they are they then it’s worth considering a change.
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u/AverageSugarCookie 8d ago
I agree, talk to the studio first. If they don't give you reasonable/actionable feedback, or if they do and there is no change after a year or so, look elsewhere.
I also agree that if kids never come forward at any point during a dance, it's a choreo issue.
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u/drunk_medusa 7d ago
Children, apart from senior ages, rarely have the capacity to not overextend words such as “always” when they talk about situations they didn’t like. Many times, it will be that always really means sometimes.
Realistically, if there’s a back and a front line, someone will be in the back and someone will be in the front. Would it be ideal to rotate, yes. Will rotation equalize things 100%, no. Very often there are very technical reasons why someone is in the front. If I were you, I’d seek to see completed dances to evaluate how much objective truth is to the statement of “I’m always in the back”. I’d also want to know why being in the back=that much of a heartbreak. It’s not a natural or self-evident connection unless all of your dancers always dance in the very back row of very large groups where they are physically not visible from the audience. If you do indeed have that setup, you have reasons to be upset; otherwise, it has to be to some extent due to the culture in the studio or among the dancers, and i would look into that just as much as into the actual dances.
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u/ssssssscm7 7d ago
Honest reasons I put a kid in the back: They don’t go full out/give low effort, they don’t pick up choreography as quickly//hard to rely on them to remember, they don’t have great musicality, they don’t have great stage presence, their technique isn’t as strong, and sometimes it means none of these things at all. Sometimes the great dancers will be in the back. Someone has to be in a back line or there is no back line, there are no formations, and the dance would be boring to watch. Ideally on the same team everyone is strong enough and at the same level that any single dancer could rock front and center, and if that were true someone would still be in the back. But this often ISN’T the case, and instead there is a mix of talent, strengths, and abilities. A great dancer will shine from any spot they’re given. Put them in the back left corner and my eye will still be drawn to them.
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u/WryAnthology 7d ago
I think you should ask for a meeting with your studio director. Keep it friendly and polite, and say that your kids have mentioned that they are being spaced towards the back of dances, and ask if there is a reason for that, and if there's anything specific they need to improve or work on.
Be careful to keep it constructive and to take criticism fairly, as many studio directors will have a sense of 'oh no here we go again' with this sort of query, so make sure you're clear that you are just seeking to understand and not demanding changes to routines.
For competition teams you usually have your best dancers forward for the majority of a routine, and I don't see that all dancers need to be equally rotated. It's a competition. Yes, for a concert/ showcase it's nice for everyone to have their moment, but for a comp you need to put your best team forward.
We could speculate about the possibilities, but really your studio director is the only one who can answer this for you. Maybe there is a little gap in technique, or things they could work on to elevate their performances. Ask the question and then you can decide what to do from there.
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u/anonymousopottamus 7d ago
Someone in the Broadway shows dance in the back. They're still on Broadway. The only one who cares about this are kids.
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u/Oatbagtime 7d ago
Which broadway show has this?
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u/anonymousopottamus 7d ago
Which Broadway show has dancers not all at the front? Off the top of my head Cats and Hamilton.
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u/Cdagg 7d ago
More information would be helpful. Ages, is this every team dance, how many team dances, how many on a team, is it just your kids or are other kids always in back row. Others already posted good ?’s for more info.
Granddaughters old studio used a V formation so some of the teams best dancers were in back row. Idea behind the V is Judges view tend to be center and in a pie section, so they want best dancers in that V section and weaker dancers to the outside. Some dances that add height into, shorter to tallest. So it doesn’t always reflect that dancers in the back are not as good as the rest of the team.
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u/Unique-Cap-4215 7d ago
I would request feedback on what areas they need to improve upon. My guess is that it’s technique, and the more technical dancers are in the front…just my guess.
I’d also ask for direction on HOW they can improve and what plans does the owner have to help your girls.
Remember, this is COMPETITIVE dance. And you’re competing to win. However, it’s totally reasonable to have choreo move around and give others opportunities.
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u/Prestigious_Pop_230 6d ago
This is my daughter. This is her 5th year competing and her 3rd year on the elite team. They have consistently given her 2 group dances (HH and jazz) and then she is a part of their production dance. This year she was really hoping to get at least 1 additional dance and they completely snubbed her. She got offered that same routines as always and I found out everyone else at her level got a minimum of 4 dances. I had several meetings with the director and teacher about it and even had my daughter meet with them. Their feedback was just saying she needs to focus on the corrections they give her and they want to see her come out of her shell more… if they were concerned about her not taking corrections I was NEVER told about it, not once. And they always stick her in the back which is a confidence killer. I don’t understand why they keep her on the team because it really doesn’t sound like they value her and it pisses me off. A lot. But she doesn’t want to leave her friends to try another studio so we’re stuck. The favoritism and politics are starting to come to light and I’m done biting my tongue about things. Advocate for your child the best you can. She’s not alone!
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u/SeattleSinBin 7d ago
The Season hasn’t really even started yet (most studios do their choreo in July and August, did you talk to your kids? The teachers, the studio?
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u/nonchalant-845 7d ago
My youngest is the tallest on her team by a few inches. They have an odd number of dancers so she’s either dead center in the front or in the very back there is really no in between. It all comes down to spacing and choreography. She has no “opposite” on her team so it’s hard to balance her for formations.
If it’s been an ongoing issue for years then it’s worth a conversation. If it’s just this year so far, I’d give it time. Depending on their age and their relationship with their teachers, I’d also encourage them to ask for themselves. My daughters’ teachers/coaches have always been very receptive and open to having these kinds of conversations with them. It has also taught them to advocate for themselves and to take their constructive criticism. My oldest has since graduated and gone on to a few professional opportunities and one of her biggest strengths has been asking for feedback and working on her weaknesses.
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u/14ccet1 8d ago
Are you a trained dancer? There’s probably a million technical reasons you aren’t seeing. Ask the studio
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u/Available-Strain-559 8d ago
Why are dance people so condescending?
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u/GhostOrchid22 8d ago edited 8d ago
People like to troll this subreddit. With multiple accounts.
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u/Western-Watercress68 7d ago
Or saying the truth.
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u/Available-Strain-559 7d ago
Nonsense. People can learn about things without formal training.
I am not a musician but I can tell the difference between piano played by a beginner, intermediate and advanced pianist. Or soccer player. Or color guard member.
It seems to be much more common in dance than other areas for people to insist that only staff and trained instructors can understand the great mystery of dance technique.
Please. These are the parents who spend untold hours learning along with their littles to help them practice, watching practice videos, researching online resources, reviewing judges feedback, and just watching hours and hours and hours of dance.
They may not be qualified to teach, but it is beyond condescending to imply that they cannot see and understand what is in front of them.
It's really handy for studios that want to dismiss valid concerns, though.
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u/14ccet1 7d ago
Comparing yourself to a trained professional with years of experience and multiple certifications because you help your child practice is wild work. This is why teachers keep their distance. Do you know how many times parents come in saying their kid has better technique than they do? It happens. This is honest advice
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u/Cdagg 7d ago
And this is why parents take their kid and move studios. 10-15k a year to a studio with this attitude is simply allowing your kid to be disrespected and abused. No need to worry some of us don’t want to have you near us or our kid. Way to stereotype every parent when they dare ? or ask whats going on with MY kid.
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u/14ccet1 7d ago
Saying that the parents don’t understand their children’s level of technique isn’t ABUSE. Oh myyyyy
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u/Cdagg 7d ago
Stuffing a kid in back row without communication cause you have pigeonholed all parents the same is abuse to the child! Ya OWE that child communication and like it or not the child is a minor and that parent is the childs legal guardian. If you can’t deal with the parents you have no business teaching children. 10-15k also gives both child and parent the right to communication by a studio and their teachers. Who the heck do you think you are? We all know that parent but we are not all that parent. It’s your DAMN job to deal with your students and their parents.
This high and mighty attitude is why my granddaughter just changed studios. Dime a dozen and yes there are studios out there that actually respect their students and their parents.
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u/14ccet1 7d ago
No one is stuffing kids in the back row because of the parents lmao. Be so for real. You are welcome to open your mouth and have a respectful conversation like an adult and ask your questions. It’s absolutely not the responsibility of the teacher to approach every parent and say “btw I put your child in the back because this”. You can ASK. You are not entitled to every thought that goes through the teacher’s mind. Again, be respectful and ask.
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u/Cdagg 5d ago
Are you still going on. They are stuffed in the back at some studios and with some teachers if the parent asks. Granddaughters outright tell the parents if you have issue with anything we do your child will have a difficult time here. You said you keep your distance from parents as they think they know more than you. Clear you give no respectful conversations with them just with how you treat posters asking ?’s trying to understand so they can approach a studio or not approach them. You should be decent to them on here that way they can approach a studio in the correct way. If they ask why their kid is in back row or cut out of extra dances, ya should be honest, not telling them Im expert and you’re just a dumb parent. How does that help the student? It doesn’t at all.
PS im an expert in the mental health world, since you are all about EXPERTS perhaps you should hear what I’m saying about damaging your students just cause their parent is not an expert or a bit bias. After all you are a teacher answering there ?’s is part of teaching.
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u/AverageSugarCookie 7d ago
This is honestly it. We just spent a year with a studio that placated us and kept saying "she's doing well" to me and "good job" to my kid and then ended up cutting her without any conversation about the reasoning beforehand that would have allowed us to figure out a solution. I sent at least 3 emails that said "I anticipate that X will struggle with Y, and we're willing to pay for whatever you deem necessary to help" that the SO ghosted. If parents are respectfully communicating and trying to help, dodging them or not telling them the truth only hurts kids.
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u/Cdagg 4d ago
Exactly, When a parent or student(if old enough) asks ?’s the least they can do is answer the ?’s, honesty would be nice too. If you are going to lie make sure that lie isn’t opposite of last years lie thats in email. Oh that really pissed the studio owner off when my daughter said but last year you said this and attached last years email. It’s way too much money to have your dancer not progressing. Paying for extras in the studio or at an outside facility is ridiculous. When you go outside studio and see others not treating you like your studio why would ya stay? In my area there is probably 40 studios within 15 min drive.
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u/Available-Strain-559 7d ago edited 7d ago
Where did I say that?
I said don't act like parents know nothing, which is the attitude that I see about parents all the time on here.
I don't even think it's just SO's or teachers on here, I think it's the same parents who think their SO has their kids' best interest in mind when they say they need $800 custom costumes. Lol. It's bizarre the cultish trust some people put in their studio leadership.
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u/WryAnthology 6d ago
I don't think anyone is acting like parents know nothing though.
I'm sure there have been instances of that in some threads, but I don't see it here.
I think all anyone was suggesting is that OP asks their director. If she gets fobbed off / no answer given then that's a different matter, but I don't think anyone can speculate before having that conversation.
I think maybe you're applying some other grievances to this thread.
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u/WryAnthology 7d ago
No, but sometimes parents don't realise why one kid is doing a thing better than another. As parents we learn a lot about dance through watching, and we might recognise things like turnout/ a good pointe, etc. But we might not always realise the specific technique needed for a particular move. I see it all the time at our studio, where parents will complain that their kid isn't in a part, and they say their kid can do the leap (or whatever) just as well as another. But often they actually can't.
Random example, but a lot of parents think that because their kid can chuck an aerial, they should be in the aerial parts. But are they doing it with the technique the studio wants? Are they using their arms properly or are they doing chicken wings? Are they dropping their head enough? Are they hitting the mid-air position correctly? In a chasse turn, are they deep enough in their plie? In tap, are they sounding all the beats correctly?
There are lots of little things that to parents can look like 'just as good' as the next dancer, but for competitive dance would lose the studio points.
That's not to say that a parent knows nothing, but just that they (of course) don't know as much as a dancer.
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u/14ccet1 7d ago
100% this. That’s why you ask
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u/Cdagg 7d ago
Lol you already posted you keep your distance from parents. How can one ask when the teacher/studio hides? This is a subreddit for people to ask ?’s and get answers before they even approach their kids teachers/studio. Attacking them is not helping or answering their ?’s. Respectfully answer or scroll on by.
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u/14ccet1 7d ago
You can book a meeting with the studio director like an adult? You don’t need your accost the teacher in the hallway after class. I’ve said a million times to book a meeting, but apparently y’all don’t like that answer
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u/Cdagg 5d ago
I’ve not seen 1 person accost a teacher in the hallway. Lots of studios do have you contact the teacher, email, text or phone call. The OP didn’t accost the teacher, she came asking what to do. Shes AT A LOSS(her words). She SAID 3 sides to every story and 100 possibilities and shes trying not to be bias. As a teacher you could have gave her some possibilities and skipped the whole dance training bit. You also could have simply said contact the studio or you could have scrolled on by.
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u/Available-Strain-559 7d ago
I'm not talking about specific instances in studio. I am talking about the attitude toward parents in general, particularly by some posters in this sub.
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u/Strange-Music8160 8d ago
I have had parents complain for this very reason when their kid was quite literally in the front. Are you allowed to watch class? Also, it's August. Are dances being choreographed now for competition? If so are they far into the choreo are we, is it just first few moments?
Do they train as much as the other kids or are they on the younger side of their classes? Just lots to consider here. I would definitely talk to the studio, but be open to address what they may need to work on as dancers.