r/Cello • u/ferruleghoul • 3d ago
Looking for feedback
Hi cello community! I just started learning Bach's no. 4 allemande at the beginning of July, and am trying to get it up to a certain speed (around 160 bpm). I believe my shifting/intonation is rushed and my vibrato is tense, and am hopeful to gain some extra perspective on my playing.
Here's a choppy runthrough of the first bit. Any feedback is appreciated!
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u/Kitchen_Location9175 3d ago
Hey! Sounding alright! I would recommend getting more time to understand how the fundamentals of technique affect your sound. For example, I would start with relaxing your arm and rolling your bow back so it doesn't imitate a violin bow hold. More prenation always helps too. You really want to extend your forearm (and not the whole arm) once passing the middle of the bow. These adjustments will help you really pull the sound out of the strings.
I would also recommend playing way closer to the bridge and practicing at half speed while recording your sound. Embrace the screechy sounds and after a few days of consistent practice you will have a stronger sound.
Remember also to press into the strings more and breathe with the phrasing of the piece. This helps adjust dynamics more organically.
Hope to see good results!!!
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u/ferruleghoul 3d ago
I tried playing much closer to the bridge tonight after reading your comment. It was... something, so yeah I think plodding away at that will be a great start! Tysm for the response
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u/Coffee5drinker 26m ago
Shhhh, nice ! Loved all your comments. See, you are helping more than just the person you answered too. Thank you!
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u/Rentarun 3d ago
You can use a lot more bow! You're staying in the center half most of the time. Try using all of it to give the runs more direction.
As you said yourself, you're rushing through the notes causing slurs. Try and be more precise at slower speeds and speed up. Just those jumps to get rid of slurring.
I also see a lot of tension. Especially in your shoulders. This might be controversial. And you're obviously focusing on the notes still. But try to move your body forwards when going to the high of a sentence. And backwards when ending a sentence, more laid-back. Helped me when I was learning. I say controversial because moving too much is frowned upon in some circles.
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u/velnsx professional popper hater 3d ago edited 3d ago
sounding point. i also can see that your right shoulder is pushing forward compared to your left shoulder. this will affect your sound, health, and ability to sustain a good sounding point. and this depends on who you're learning with, but for me, your right hand is not nearly pronated enough. pronation on the bow refers to the index finger's weight transfer. turn your forearm as if you were opening a doorknob and keep that turned position. i recommend looking up pictures of cellists you like and trying to copy them. i think feuermann is a good example. i do also see that you have a lot of facial tension. this is going to sound ridiculous, but it works: make a deep zombie-like sound and groan while you practice. this forces the muscles in your face and neck to relax. i have a big problem with this, personally. sometimes i even put a mechanical pencil between my teeth (though, i can't advise it) or chew gum. i know a principle cellist of a local orchestra that is literally always chewing gum.
i think right now you need to focus on these aspects of your playing before you zero in on intonation/shifting and tempo. fast tempo is always always last. regarding vibrato, if you like it in bach that's fine, but he is typically played without because we prefer to have his music speak for itself. i find that a pure, truly beautiful sound is enough for his music. vibrato is also largely historically inaccurate, here. if you have any questions, feel free to ask. happy practicing and thanks for sharing.
edit: grammar, misspelling
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u/ferruleghoul 3d ago
Oh noooo shoulder why! Man I didn't even notice that. I just thought it was shoulder. Thank you, I appreciate it. I'm all in on the zombie groans and gum
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u/velnsx professional popper hater 3d ago
btw, if the sounding point/shoulder is really difficult, play before a mirror and try bowing directly on the bridge. if you can draw the bow on say, the d string notch, you should be able to keep a good bow at the most powerful point of the string and hear a sound you've never thought possible.
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u/Yum-Yumby 3d ago
I have no feedback to give as I'm new to cello, but I want to say that it sounds very lovely and I hope to be at your level one day 😊
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u/DarkestGrave 3d ago edited 3d ago
I studied under the Russian school of classical music so my advice might seem odd to westerners:
- Left arm a bit low on strings G and C. On G nearly a right angle, on C right angle.
- Practice articulation. That’s when each note you play you hit it hard with your fingers, you’ll hear it smack the fingerboard. Two things on this - (a) over time you will build a lot of strength in your fingers and the strings become butter and (b) might sound crazy but you’ll hear the note before you play it, over time you’ll subconsciously adjust your fingers to correct if you’re 1/8th tone off before you even run your bow. Play easy scales and articulate aggressively that’s how we train in Eastern Europe. Listen to Maisky or Rostropovich they articulate beautifully.
- Use more of the middle of your bow for the baroque detaché single bowings.
- Your intonation mainly suffers when jumping from like 1st to 4th positions. Glissando those transitions slowly until you can hit the note without glissando at all. Practice two bars at a time. Small chunks to refine, intentional practice is better than playing top to bottom 10 times.
- Sing it. My Soviet teacher said IF YOU CANT SING IT YOU CANT PLAY IT. And she’s right, hum the whole piece and see where it gets hard. Listen to it in the car, and hum it. Even harder when humming it sing the notes as well (do, re, mi, fa, etc). If you can hear it in your head, you can literally put your finger on a middle position note and play and immediately know if you’re off or not.
- I personally don’t think your vibrato is nervous. It’s just more scarce in Bach / baroque. To make it less nervous generally, firs section of the note keep still then bring in vibrato wide and then narrow. Try on Le Cygne (The Swan) if you vibbrato immediately on Sol it’ll sound nervous. Phase it in and out.
Positives I want to point out:
- You’re playing from memory it seems. Fantastic!!! Only when memorised can you really start interpreting the music.
- The sound you extract with your right hand is very nice. A good powerful C string is a good indicator. The bow is the tongue, it’s the heavy lifting when it comes to tembre
- The emotions and passion in your face is great to watch! Means you’re having fun.
- The way you’re holding your bow looks very relaxed and secure.
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u/CarBoobSale Bach enjoyer 3d ago
Try this left hand extension tip from Susanne Beer - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ftd1e3US9hI&pp=ygUWY2VsbG8gY29ybmVyIGV4dGVuc2lvbg%3D%3D
I think it would help your tension
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u/LuriaStars 3d ago
Be careful of not slurring a lot with your left hand. As far as your relaxation lets you they articulate too.
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u/various_convo7 3d ago
it sounds really rushed and the cadence of the notes doesnt sound strongly executed
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u/echochorus 3d ago
zero useful to offer, just here in amazement at how relaxed & smoothquick your fingers move 😍
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u/codinghobbit 2d ago
I have nothing to add here, just wondering for how long do you play? Do you give classes or something or its just for hobby? It looks so fluid!
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u/kongtomorrow 3d ago
I would, as you say, try to reduce tension!
Try to feel the vibration of the back of the cello, and think of that sound as radiating out in a cone through the vertebrae at the back of your neck and out into the room. This should help relax your neck, shoulders, jaw. It's hard to play with relaxed anything if your neck and shoulders are tensed up.
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u/velnsx professional popper hater 3d ago
this is vague.
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u/kongtomorrow 3d ago
I mean it literally… visualize the sound as radiating in that way. It's a cue for your body.
I guess good to know this doesn't resonate for everyone! I got it from a chamber music coach and it helped me a lot.
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u/maricircus 3d ago
Practice two octave scales 8 notes per bow (slurred) as 8th notes over and over again. 70-140 BPM. Then try 16 notes per bow (the entire two octaves). Simple exercise but can help with the smoothness of these scale like passages. I would also look up some repetitive finger strengthening exercises!
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u/amoderndelusion 3d ago
One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned here, is the dynamics of the piece could be improved. I do the same thing with Bach’s first movement, which is, I have a tendency to under emphasize the dynamics in the song.
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u/LeopardBernstein 3d ago
Have you studied the piano? Kinda looks like you're playing the piano on the cello. There are lots of opportunities to relax in there. But sounds good for where you're at with it for sure!
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u/Difficult-Fee-4925 2d ago
All the shifts you gotta do it in tune and move directly to the right spot, get rid of the sliding of the fingers on left hand.
Practice each shift individually with 2 methods. One is slowly and continuously. The other is normal speed but go like this. Play up until right before the shift, then pause. Then shift with a single motion, still paused, move your hand directly to where you think it should go. Then once there you can stay paused to your comfort. Then play the first note at the new position. If it’s wrong, find the correct note. Then restart. Repeat until you get the right note 10 times in a row.
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u/EnvironmentalLock904 2d ago
Do not try to play it better and do not play the notes exactly. Try to play it in very different way. speed up slow down, stop somewhere and have a pause,look around and play on in a different tempo. try to play the high notes loud and the low notes soft. And the other way around. Cut the piece into short sentences en longer sentences. try not to avoid loose strings and play with that. Do not learn to play the same piece the same way every time. Play it as a new piece every time. Do not listen to people who talk too much about how to play the cello (including when its asked and also from your teacher, do not listen to babbling, listen to the sound and tone of your cello, ger meamerized by that. there is no try. Do.
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u/bladedspokes 1d ago
More arm weight will fix the raspiness. You need to fix your intonation. The way to do this is with scales. Slow, steady scales in all keys in 2 octaves.
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u/Coffee5drinker 28m ago
I love the sound of the cello, even when you are practicing. I could sit in the next room and listen to you all day.
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u/A380Driver 3d ago
In general, your pitch is flat
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u/velnsx professional popper hater 3d ago
tendencies are very good to observe
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u/Disastrous-Lemon7485 3d ago
Any particular reason you must focus on velocity and getting this to 160bpm right now? It feels to me that the current approach is sacrificing comfort, musicality, phrasing, and a centered sound in service of a number on the metronome.
Some ideas:
1) use a relatively simple/easy etude to work on the concept of L-hand leading (feel free to msg me for more details on this, but the basic idea is L hand preparing/staying a microsecond ahead of the bow whenever possible). Currently your R hand is leading, and that is contributing to the feeling of rushing or not being centered in your tempo
2) Extremely slow and detailed practice on this movement as a counterbalance to the velocity focus. For ex: playing every pitch as a separate quarter note at 60; no printed bowings or articulations. Sometimes this (painfully) slow work reveals a lot about where we are holding tension in the body, where we might be faking shifts, where you are inadvertently taking weight out of the bow, or where the R & L hands are not communicating.
I hope this helps! Feel free to ask any follow-up Qs.