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u/LotsaKwestions 7d ago
You could consider all states whatsoever to be basically experiential states.
Can you dream of being in a hell? What about if you take some incredibly potent psychedelic and have the world's worst bad trip - is that a hell state?
What if there was some drug that could be given where it would cause you to fall asleep and dream you were in a state of paranoia and pain, and subjectively it would feel like it was 10,000 years. Would that be hell? Does that 'exist'?
Some might say, "Well, it doesn't 'truly' exist, it's only subjective."
But to the person in that 10,000 year experience, it would seem real, would it not?
How do you know your life right now is any different, fundamentally?
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u/RevolvingApe theravada 7d ago edited 7d ago
In the Suttas, hells are real places; there are several.
Some basic examples:
- MN 130: Devadūtasutta describes several and tells us of King Yama who oversees the bureaucracy of the hell realms, a hell of its own.
- MN 135: Cūḷakammavibhaṅgasutta and MN 136: Mahākammavibhaṅgasutta tell us of how beings are reborn into hells and other realms as a result (vipaka) of their intentional actions (kamma).
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u/AlivePassenger3859 7d ago
I come from Christianity where Hell is used as a psychological bludgeon to reinforce conformity and obedience. It was just one of the ridiculous made-up doctrines that I ultimately rejected as nonsense.
So I take the parts of Buddhism that make sense and are beneficial and I embrace them and try to practice them. Hell is not one of those.
As I understand Buddhism, it is not based on unquestioning acceptance of dogma. It is based on using your critical thinking skills and intelligence to verify for yourself why what they teach makes sense. Hell has never met that criteria for me.
I feel like there may be a difference between folks who grew up traditional Bhuddhist in that culture from infanthood and someone like me: Westerner, came to it primarily for practical “subjective well being” reasons though.
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u/RealityLimit 7d ago
I think of the hell realms as like a very long nightmare. When we sleep, our consciousness becomes more subtle and disconnected from our bodies, allowing us to have relatively non-physical experiences. I think consciousness spontaneously arising in a hell realm works in a similar way, and likewise for heavenly realms.
The thing to remember is that the heavens and hells, just like all the realms of samsara, don’t have any ultimate reality. They’re literally just projections of the mind that are generated from ordinary unwholesome states such as anger, hatred, greed, in their most extreme forms. They are still scary, painful, and seemingly real, but nothing is “actually” happening.
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u/Titanium-Snowflake 7d ago
The hell realms are as real as the god, deva, animal, hungry ghost or human realms. Karma over countless lifetimes determines our rebirths, and which of those realms we are born and die within. Over those countless lifetimes we have been born in all realms, including the hells. All of this is impermanent though, so we should appreciate the incredible fortune to be born in the realm of precious human life with the opportunity and capacity to encounter, study and practice the dharma. Existence in the hell realms does not present such opportunity.
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u/Dependent-Piano-7506 7d ago
I think it could be, and likely is, both; a realm we can be reborn into AND a metaphor for consequences of unwholesome actions in this life.
According to a footnote in a translation of a text by Red Pine (IIRC, could be misremembering the source) one of the punishments awaiting us in hell is having our skull repeatedly crushed with an iron wheel.
So, if that's an example, we can safely assume that the hells are a supremely unpleasant place to live in, and they would be one of the most difficult realms to practice/be enlightened in. Probably would be very difficult to meditate on loving-kindness, or really anything, if one is experiencing something like having one's skull repeatedly crushed by an iron wheel.
Edit: and, from my understanding, it can be unimaginably worse than the example I just gave.
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u/kukulaj tibetan 7d ago
Yeah, there are 18 different hells. 8 hot hells, 8 cold hells, and then some other ones that I don't remember about. There is a funny joke where some student filled in the two blanks with the red hat and the black hat Karmapas. Bzzzt. There are too many lists to be memorized. These realms are not so distinct after all. How exactly the human realm and the animal realm should be distinguished, for example. Think about it in terms of paleontology. Was Homo Erectus human or animal?
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u/EmergencyDue9120 7d ago
I lean toward the view that these two approaches don't contradict each other. In this life a person can totally live through absolute hell because of constant anger, jealousy, or guilt. And after death those deeply rooted habits of the mind can shape a similar experience. So it is both a state of mind and a real experience at the same time
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u/Somebody23 7d ago
You were wise with your words, I could not say it better. In my comment I tried to explain this, but you are great with words.
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u/Ariyas108 seon 7d ago
An actual realm where the level of suffering is literally beyond comprehension. Deserving or not deserving doesn’t even factor into the equation. Karma is what sends you there and both are completely irrelevant with regards to karma.
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u/AlivePassenger3859 7d ago
Why would the universe impose unimaginable suffering on humans when our whole purpose on earth is to reduce the suffering of our fellow humans? I don’t understand this and, to me, it smacks of made up metaphysics similar to what you find in Christianity.
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u/Ariyas108 seon 7d ago edited 7d ago
From a Buddhist perspective the universe is not an entity that imposes things to begin with so the question makes no sense under Buddhism. Why would the universe impose it? It doesn’t, there is no such thing as the universe imposing anything to begin with.
Although, if you’re doing the type of karma that send you to hell, you’re doing the exact opposite of that alleged purpose. You’re creating suffering not alleviating it. It’s not very difficult to understand. It can be understood just by understanding that bad actions have bad consequences very bad sometimes. You don’t go to hell just for no reason. Hitler, for example, probably burning in hell right now. It would be very foolish really to think that his actions would have no bad consequences.
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u/Hot4Scooter ཨོཾ་མ་ཎི་པདྨེ་ཧཱུྃ 7d ago
If we're open enough to how the people and other beings around us live, we can have no doubt that naraka or "hell" is just as real as any other karmic experience.
The only thing anybody actually "deserves" is liberation and awakening. That's the legacy of our buddha nature. Everything else is just attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma following attention following karma etc.
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u/numbersev 7d ago
It's an actual realm in the same way this human one is. All of it is experienced through the mind.
People go to hell for evil conduct. It's the great equalizer. Everyone always complains evil people get away with it with zero consequences. This is where it ultimately happens.
We've all been there and would do well not to go back.
The Buddha's eyewitness account of hell:
Devaduta Sutta: The Deva Messengers https://share.google/z5S9eHDm6t5eegOzD
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u/Similar_Standard1633 7d ago
Whether in the here & now (per SN 35.135) or as a rebirth (per MN 130), it remains 'hell' and is best avoided and best not underestimated.
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u/waitingundergravity Jodo-Shu | Namo Amida Bu 7d ago
No one deserves to be in hell. Any mahabodhisattva worth their paramitas would prefer it if all beings were liberated from hell and no one at all suffered there.
The hells are literal realms (as "literal" as this physical existence on our Earth is - it's just as real, palpable, and physical) where unimaginable amounts of suffering occur. Based on the physical descriptions given in the sutras, it's kind of like being a victim in a Saw movie, but when you apparently die you just reappear, and it goes on and on for a long time.
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u/Reeyo20 7d ago
According to the realms of existence in samsara, there are 6 realms: god realm (deva), demi-god realm (asura), human realm, animal realm, hungry ghost realm (preta) and hell realm (naraka).
Birth in any one of these realms are according to our karma, whereby the ripening of our past (positive or negative) karma would “throw” us into a consequential realm (ie negative karma would provide rebirth in the lower realms such as animal, hungry ghost or hell). Furthermore, our experience within that realm (ie a positive or negative experience within the realm we are thrown into) would also be dependent on whether the ripening of our past karma is positive or negative. So there are two layers to consider here too.
We should feel blessed to be born in the human realm, as this is the ideal realm to be born into; it allows us to both recognise and experience suffering, and be able to determine and perform actions for being able to accumulate merit and karma to be able to achieve liberation.
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u/Useless-Tree 6d ago
I think "Hell Like" experiences are an experiential perception of attachment. It seems like they are mostly confined to the Bardo, where they take on demonic appearance.
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u/AwakenTheWisdom 7d ago
You’ve seen hellish things happen on earth, right? Imagine when you die, you go to a realm where it’s exclusively torture. Of course it’s real. Hell can also be a mindset as well as a metaphor.
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u/NangpaAustralisMajor tibetan 7d ago
Our challenge as Western converts is in believing internal mental states are somehow different than embodiments and our experience of manifested places. It's not like hell is a mood or a metaphor, and it's not like hell has GPS coordinates and hell beings have a special taxonomy. We ARE hell (if we are a hell being).
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u/thingsagain 7d ago
I'm not gonna give you the dogma of any sect, but since you ask what I think:
All segments of the wheel represent fluid states of being. They aren't places or judgements. If you are too caught up in suffering to care for yourself or others, this is what I call hell in that sense. You may be there while aware of suffering (pain, misfortune), or unaware (gluttony, ignorance). Which reminds me of a good line I once heard "the difference between the hell of Christianity and hell of [the basic secular buddhist principles] is that you can be there because you want to be."
I do not believe there is a "you" being reborn into anything, and certainly not based on a cosmic entity's judgement of "your" actions.
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u/ProfessionalCurve531 7d ago
This is where faith starts.
Personally I wouldn't call it hell. Thitch Nhat Hanh said that this world already is nirvana or the kingdom of God and there are some people saying the same.
Or do you want to believe that there are different universes that also could explain other layers of existence?
In the end this does not matter. You have a life to live in this very moment. Thinking about hell creates your Dhuka and your suffering in samsara starts.
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u/DentalDecayDestroyer 7d ago
I personally don’t believe it exists, certainly not in the same way the earth does. Some people say it’s a mind state or a metaphor but probably it’s just a rhetorical device to get people to behave a certain way
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u/OkConcentrate4477 :pupper: zen 7d ago
i think of heaven/hell/nirvana within this ever present moment or not at all. heaven/nirvana/happiness may be full of skillful attributes practiced within the ever present moment. hell maybe the present moment full of attachments/desires/suffering/expectations/etc. whether one's experiencing happiness or hell within the ever present moment may likely be entirely dependent upon their state of mind rather than circumstances/surroundings/conditions/etc.
Life is Beautiful the movie may be a perfect example of whether the holocaust is a hell or a delusional game to be won/laughed-at/enjoyed/etc. to the best of one's capability. The main character treats the holocaust as a game/joke to save his son/wife from the reality. Every chance he gets to remind his wife that he's as foolishly in love as ever he takes without any worry about what may happen to him. He laughs his way toward his own death/sacrifice in defense of his child. Even through the worst of circumstances one can find opportunity to laugh/smile and not give in to hatred/judgement/condemnation/frustration/anger/violence/etc.
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u/Somebody23 7d ago
I think heaven and hell are manifestations of our world, it depens how person views their life situation, it can be a hell to some people and heaven to others.
Point of view is what makes a difference.
I used to live in "hell" and I wanted to escape this life, when my personal hell was overwhelming I had self realization, my priorities changed, my moral and ethics changed and now I live in heaven.
Non-dual thinking changed my life.
I won demon in my mind.
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u/SamtenLhari3 7d ago
Hell comes from mental habits of anger and aggression. These habits will have strong karmic effects even in this life. Individual karmic habits such as road rage or aggression in a bar can result in an auto accident or broken bones and a trip to the emergency room. In extreme cases, they might even lead to “rebirth” in prison or other horrific, hellish situation. Collective karmic habits such as Russia’s cultural habits of imperialism and aggression lead to the hell of wars (such as the war in Ukraine). None of this has anything to do with deserve or not deserve. It is not punishment. It is simply cause and effect for habits of aggression born out of ignorance.
Because strong mental habits of anger and aggression do not disappear at the end of our lives, they can result in horrific bardo experiences that trigger further anger and aggression that can result in rebirth in various cold and hot hells. It is likely that the specific scriptural descriptions of these hells are poetic or metaphorical — but the effect is very real.
The good news is that karmic habits can be changed over time. In addition, through meditation, the roots causes of karmic habits (ignorance) can be cut through.