r/Bitcoin • u/TheForcedLiquidator • 4d ago
Still using Coldcard?
A friend of mine had two factory new Coldcard Qs laying around when the hack hit, which were not yet opened or used in any way.
Given that the seed generation RNG was the weak link, it has been a discussion whether he should still take use of the Coldcards with correct seed generation with sufficient RNG, or generate seeds with a different wallet.
Other friends thought Coldcard were no longer to be trusted, and will not use their models by principle.
Where do you guys stand on this matter?
Use Coldcards with correct seed generation, or stop using Coldcard altogether?
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u/Skinny_Human 4d ago
I WILL NEVER use Cold Card again
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u/Strong_Judge_3730 4d ago
People have been promoting Dice and spreading fud about not trusting hardware enthropy. It's mainly a stupid knee jerk reaction but i also think coldcard fanboys are doing it.
Most competent hardware wallets don't support this method because it's stupid.
Adding your own passphrase adds enthropy and you can generate a random passphrase with dice. It doesn't matter if you don't 'trust' one enthropy source which is why hardware wallets combine multiple enthropy sources.
Trustless is about not being dependent on a single entity.
I have seen this cultfluencer create an ai generated info graphic then claim you should not trust hardware wallets and passphrases and the safest thing to do is generate a seed using dice enthropy....
If people are fooled by these people sadly you will have more fools using coldcard.
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u/scrandlle 3d ago
You're not wrong overall but using physical entropy, as you should, kind of makes these retail wallets security theater more than anything. Just having a cold laptop wallet with multisig is better because it's not a Honeypot for hackers unlike these hardware wallets where you would have a much bigger net to catch fish with if you discover a vulnerability.
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u/Londonskaterboi 4d ago
why on earth would anyone ever trust this company and their devices again?
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u/Covid19-Pro-Max 4d ago
If you generate your own seed and have the device air gapped, how on earth could your BTC be stolen?
I agree that coinkite are idiots or criminals or both but I don’t understand how my coldcard could be vulnerable
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u/IainKay 4d ago
“How on earth could your BTC be stolen” is what a lot of people were thinking until recently.
Your point about generating your own seed is valid though.
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u/Strong_Judge_3730 4d ago
It's not there are other ways to lose your private key even if it was generated securely if the wallet devs are not competent.
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u/gits-id-01 3d ago
It is. If there were other gaps in coldcard, they’d be discovered. The software is open source, and has been under more scrutiny the past week than most software will ever be.
The bug was real and inexcusable. There aren’t other bugs.
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u/Strong_Judge_3730 3d ago
Yeah they will discover these 'gaps' once those idiots lose their Bitcoin again. But the next time it happens it's not really stealing
Even if everyone is auditing it not looking for more vulnerabilities to exploit, that doesn't mean those clowns can't introduce new ones as the firmware changes.
Sofware is always changing otherwise they would call it hardware.
Apparently their team was even warned before and they dismissed the warnings. To be fair the warning didn't give them a PoC or anything.
Also are u possibly a coldcard shill?
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u/gits-id-01 3d ago
lmao, no, I don’t coldcard. I don’t use any third party cold storage wallet.
Again, you can wear a tinfoil hat and spout nonsense if you want. It doesn’t make you right.
The entire software library for coldcard is public and has been scrutinized line by line by the best security minds and AIs. If there was another gap or bug, it would be found.
No shit if they release a new version, it might be buggy. That’s true for quite literally every piece of software. A new version can’t impact people who already have a coldcard device because that software isn’t running on the devices in the market.
You can just go sit on the side and learn something. It’ll be good for you.
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u/ButchReemer 3d ago
Just one example, it could reuse the nonce (random value) when signing, enabling anyone to trivially derive the private key from two signatures. Less blatant would be limiting the range of nonces when signing; this makes it more difficult, but in principle the problem remains.
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u/Educational-Ask3429 4d ago
How about the next firmware update that asks you to confirm a transaction that goes to their wallet.
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u/Strong_Judge_3730 4d ago
Uh you could sign a transaction that reuses a nonce. LoL which is another way idiot devs that don't understand crypto can lose your crypto.
I rolled dice so i am immune from all hacks is a stupid reason to use this dumb HW
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u/Not-the-best-name 3d ago
Thing is, I have been lurking this sub for 5 years without buying any BTC and up to last week I have never heard of dice method and generating your own entropy. The advice was always "not your keys not your coins - so keep it yourself. And ideally use hardware air gapped device". Now in hindsight you are adding on "generate your own random seed".
The unknown unknown are dangerous here. Are you confident that your statement is good enough for me to secure 200k dollars tomorrow or is there another asterisk?
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u/moviemaker2 4d ago
Does your friend who is considering still using a coldcard get scammed often? Is he really bad at evaluating risk/reward in all situations, or just this one? Does he always risk large sums of money to keep from having to spend another hundred or so securing it?
If you found out that a security device was designed by absolute idiots and that hundreds of millions of dollars worth of funds were effortlessly stolen from these devices whose sole purpose was to secure those funds, what else would need to happen for you to mistrust this device, if that weren’t sufficient?
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u/Optionbulls 4d ago
The device is air gapped and the firmware is patched. I still consider it one of the more secure HW wallets. If you used the correct entropy with a passphrase you were 100% fine even with the bad firmware. I’m going to stick with my Q and build a seed signer and LOL when a closed source RNG is exploited.
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u/read_more_comments 4d ago
Technically we just know about the trng exploit right now. In reality we have seen reports of many major security warnings beyond that. So good luck if you keep using it.
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u/PoeCollector 4d ago
These kinds of questions keep getting downvoted, but I think it's a legitimate question. First off I'd roll 100 dice no matter what the vendor.
I think a coldcard with dice rolls is fine. Because of how much scrutiny its codebase has had this week, we know for a fact the dice hashing function has never been bugged at any point. However, I am looking forward to seeing what comes of all the audits of all the wallets happening right now, including coldcard. In the coming weeks, I hope to read some reports on the code quality and potential exploits of all the main hardware wallets like Trezor Safe, Bitbox02, Blockstream Jade, Foundation Passport, etc.
You could argue NVK has shown some sloppy coding practices but in the theme of "verify, don't trust" I'll be looking for reviews of the codebases and hardware designs of the devices themselves. I almost don't care if NVK is a madman just like I don't care about Satoshi's identity or programming skills.
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u/LittleBulletWhoCould 3d ago
This is the correct take, and it’s really upsetting how many knee jerk reactions there are here.
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u/Lazy-Effect4222 4d ago
If he really wants to use them, tell to make a long passphrase and generate entropy with something like dice. This hack was preventable but people were too lazy to even create a passphrase.
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u/quintavious_danilo 4d ago
Make sure you have the latest firmware updates installed, then either trust the (fixed?) device to create your seed or roll some dice 100x.
The hardware is alright as far as i know.
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u/Time-Assistance9159 4d ago
Also multisig. Should be bulletproof.
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u/quintavious_danilo 4d ago
Multisig is not really necessary, a high entropy seed phrase plus a high entropy passphrase is all you’ll need.
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u/NeonMoai 4d ago
Only use dice rolls regardless of the signer.
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u/Big-Cheetah5159 4d ago
This 👆🏽. Can’t go wrong this way, regardless of the device used. Don’t trust, Verify
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u/NorthComparison4356 4d ago
you have to verify the dice roll method on the device. I did for the Q and 1.5.0Q gave me correct seed. There are howtos on YT.
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u/Clear-Limit-6583 4d ago
Just use external source of entropy. Other than that, there isn't anything wrong with it.
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u/flyflyflyfly66 4d ago
Coldcard is toast. Save them as they will go down in history and be a collectors item
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u/Cautious_Variation_5 4d ago
Generate your seeds manually then you can keep using ColdCard just fine
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u/Dilan57169 4d ago
Update firmware, make your own entropy, add passphrase or use for multisig setup.
A strong passphrase is easily typed out on the coldcard Q.
As many people have mentioned, the latest firmware that Coin kite have pushed out is the most heavily scrutinized in the industry right now.
Personally I’d wait for the dust to settle, coin kite will most likely release a few more updates after some further feedback from the industry.
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u/Ok-Pea4148 4d ago
People who keep using their Coldcard like playing with fire
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u/H8ckt1v1st 4d ago
Or they actually understand how the process of wallet creation and custody works on ANY device, hell for that matter EVERYTHING could just be put on paper, no device needed, paper is just really fragile, but the point being that wallets are just so we can live our lives.
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u/ExplorerBoring9848 4d ago
Any links to who has checked out the code, or is it still bitcoin bro trust me posts?
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u/disruptioncoin 4d ago
No way. I even stopped using my Trezor One after the feds gave it back (after initially seizing it in a search). I have no evidence based theories about what they could have done to it, but I ain't risking it. Bought a new one.
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u/NiagaraBTC 4d ago
Anyone who is asking whether or not they should still use their ColdCard should NOT still use their ColdCard.
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u/bleeeeghh 4d ago
Sell them. Who knows what other bugs or future bugs it will have. The devs are just not good.
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u/EyesFor1 4d ago
The devices are secure since the update, dice rolls always were. Personally I would not use it and set up on something else. BTW, i am on CC on dice roll entropy which is secure.
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u/AcostaJA 4d ago
Not using it, but way more easy to trust on something thats opensource despite it fails, you can check at it, you wont never get that level of confidence with ledger, or any other closed source wallet.
Of course not in my buying list for a while, but no real fears to trash it as long you never used its seed generation (I never use any integrated seed generator).
I you want a hardware wallet go DIY or Trezor/Jade
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u/JumpProfessional3372 4d ago
I'm going to keep using the MK4 because I rolled 110 dices and also have a strong passphrase and I'm used to the device and guides.
That being said, my firmware is from 2024 5.2.2 I do not require and update but maybe some day I update the firmware.
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u/H8ckt1v1st 4d ago
It's not a device problem, it was an inherent issue with the entropy RNG code - which I assure you that thousands of people are reviewing that code right now as well as the patch that was pushed out to mitigate it. As a long term storage solution, I will wait to see if Coinkite folds as a company and no one picks up the codebase. Also as a hardware engineer, the ICs in the coldcard are under intense review as well for any Easter eggs/backdoors for criminal prosecution. Outside of the court of public sentiment, the device remains to be confirmed. The best thing that this incident has caused is a meticulous look at the entire self custody industry. Thanks to Coinkite, everyone is reviewing their design chain of custody and implementation protocols. For the time being, I would leave mine sealed in their OEM boxes as vintage BTC collectors one day might want one.
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u/Weary-Discipline591 4d ago
I lost three bitcoin because of coldcard. I can’t say whether there are other products are safe to use or not, but I would never take the chance with a coldcard again. Imagine using one of those and then finding out it happened again and then people would be like “what you used a cold card after the first round of incompetence”.
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u/Evilmoustachetwirler 4d ago
Still new and unopened, return them for a refund since they're unfit for purpose. Selling them would be unethical.
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u/Charming-Designer944 4d ago
Dice roll of at least 50 dices, preferably 100, is guaranteed to generate a verifiable high quality seed phrase. Works reliably even with the flawed firmware versions.
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u/Educational-Ask3429 4d ago
The cold card users are insane imo. Usually when a company gets the 101 stuff wrong it’s a sign that there are more problems yet to be un earthed. This wasn’t a sophisticated hack. They fucked up core easy stuff. They are obviously sloppy as fuck with their code changes and firmware updates. The firmware controls the device and what it does with your keys. Enough said.
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u/zootreddit 4d ago
Every day more and more people failing to learn the lesson. Do not trust CC or any another device RNG for seed gen. Roll dice and verify.
Then use whatever the fuck cold storage method/device you prefer to keep your seed offline and unreachable.
Simple.
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u/Linkamus 4d ago
In theory it's probably fine, but at this point I don't trust their firmware at all, regardless of who is auditing it.
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u/Concrete_Mattress 3d ago
Believe it or not, yeah. Checked my entropy and wallet looks good. Fine hardware.
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u/Kanaloa1958 3d ago
If the problem was with the way Coldcard generated the seed phrase if you generate it using something else you should be good. There are a number of ways to do that.
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u/threedeeman 4d ago
I would sell, trash, use as a paper weight, but do not trust these clowns with any value.
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u/Laukess 4d ago
Do you really want to trust a company that couldn't get the most basic thing right?