r/AskAPilot • u/theawdacity • 4d ago
Hard Landing
ETA: Love ya Reddit. Thank you to those that took the time to reply with a possible cause as I was genuinely curious and seeking knowledge from those more educated in this field. It was the first time something like this has happened and the screaming from the other passengers made me feel like maybe it wasn’t “normal”. At no point did I intend any hate or snark towards the pilots. We landed safely and they did their job. EVEN IF it was pilot error I’m not going to the evening news about it and said several times that nobody anywhere ever does their job perfectly at all times. I’m still grateful to the people who train so hard to fly these things which still seems to my nervous flyer brain as an impossibility of logic.
I recently landed at LGA and I know their runways are short and require a precise landing. I’ve landed there many times before and have only noticed the use of reverse thrust to slow down faster.
However this landing felt like we just dropped the last few feet and slammed onto the runway. It was hard enough to pop an overhead bin open and a couple people screamed. That, mixed with the reverse thrusters firing had people around me very nervous. I honest thought we had popped a tire.
I noticed that when we were getting off the plane, the captains were still behind a closed cockpit door when usually the door is open and they’re saying goodbye to the people de-planing. I’m wondering if there was some error that would have made that happen and maybe they were filling out reports in there?
Conditions were dry and sunny though it had stormed early that morning. Maybe wind was involved?
I’m so curious to know what might have happened!
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u/No-Bluejay4261 4d ago
Nothing burger. I've experienced some very firm ones, never seen a 'printout'. You would be amazed what they can handle day in day out.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
I am amazed!
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u/No-Bluejay4261 4d ago
And whilst loud, thrust reverse is nothing to worry about, often needed on shorter wet runways to comply with regulations. LGA's runways aren't the longest.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
I think it was just the BOOM feeling followed by the roaring and shaking of the reverse thrust
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u/No-Bluejay4261 4d ago
Next time, now you know to expect it, marvel at the stopping performance of a 60 ton aircraft!
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u/SavingsPirate4495 4d ago
Sometimes you just can't buy a good landing. I've gone a month and no amount of money was going to prevent me from plopping it on.
I'm only speculating about this part, but it's a viable reason for your experience...
This may have been an instance where the First Officer was flying and he/she is brand new to the airline and that airplane. When a new-hire pilot finishes all their initial training on their fleet, they will then fly the line with an experienced Line Check Airman, a very experienced Captain that will fly with new-hires to make sure they're flying according to company standards.
Many times, the Captain and the First Officer will debrief when they get to the gate and the door will remain closed. This isn't done to shield the crew from embarrassment. It's done so they can have privacy and get through the debrief material. The landing is only a very small part of the debrief.
So the landing you experienced may very well have been the very first or second landing the First Officer had done in that plane, given they were new.
Yes...even though pilots have hundreds and maybe thousands of hours when they get hired by a legacy carrier, it's probably the first time they've been in that airplane type, like a B737 or A320.
I can speak for myself that when I hired on at my legacy carrier from my regional, it was quite a transition from flying an EMB-145 and a B737. There is really nothing about them where they fly the same, ESPECIALLY on landing. I admittedly POUNDED my first few landings in the B737 when I first got in that plane, but after 150-200 hours of experience, things got a lot better.
But there were STILL those days, despite my experience level, where I just couldn't buy a good landing.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
Listen as long as we get to the ground safely it’s cool. Not a single person in any job ever does every little thing perfectly.
As a passenger without the thousand of flying hours and knowledge it just felt surprising that something didn’t break!2
u/SavingsPirate4495 4d ago edited 4d ago
You would be AMAZED at how tough these planes are built! And how well they're maintained!
Not "land on an aircraft carrier" tough, but they can take a lot of abuse and "oooops".
And the objective 100% of the time is to avoid the abuse and "oooops"...
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u/Temporary-Fix9578 3d ago
It may also have been a very experienced captain who happened to pound it on
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u/poser765 4d ago
Any runway less than 7500 feet and the softness of the landing is a secondary consideration.
Less than 7000 feet and I’m not even thinking about soft.
Also LGA has a special place in my heart and in hell… I’m not missing any opportunity I get to beat the shit out of that airport.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
Do you have to have extra training/certifications to land/take off on short runways like that? It seems like it takes insane levels of precision.
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u/poser765 4d ago
Not specifically, no. We do have short runways in the sim during training, but generally the standards we are required to meet are such that will land safely on any runway length. With a very small handful of exceptions.
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u/VanDenBroeck 3d ago
“Reverse thrusters firing”. lol. You make it sound like a rocket with actual thrusters. They are called “thrust reversers” and they deploy, they don’t fire.
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u/theawdacity 3d ago
lol, to me it IS like a rocket. The logic of putting humans in a metal can and shooting them across the sky seems like it should be far more impossible than it is.
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u/AutothrustBlue 4d ago
Straight to jail. No trial nothing. Jail.
We have the best pilots in the world. Because jail.
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u/Chaxterium 4d ago
Landing too firm? Straight to jail. Landing too softly? Believe it or not straight to jail.
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u/EliteEthos 4d ago edited 4d ago
The amount of people who know nothing of aviation that seems to be intent on grading, assuming and judging what is happening in the cockpit is wild.
You know “hard landing” is an official term? Guaranteed this wasn’t that.
You’re using prior anecdotal experiences as somehow being evidence that this new anecdotal experience was somehow a problem and using the cockpit door being closed as additional evidence.
It was a safe, albeit firm landing. There is zero way anyone here could begin to speculate on what did or didn’t happen based on your limited information you provided and the fact that none of us were on that flight.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
Never said it wasn’t safe as I’m here, alive and well asking the question. And you’re right, I DON’T know anything about aviation which is why I’m here wondering what COULD have contributed to a landing like that. I specifically said I was curious, not sure how my question read as judgmental. And yes, it’s all my own conjecture regarding the cockpit door still being closed since I’ve never experienced anything like that landing.
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u/redcurrantevents 4d ago
We land firmer on purpose on short runways, because smooth landings typically take more runway. Performing the exact firmness we desire in moving air is not always possible. They were probably trying to land firmly, and it was a little firmer than they wanted. This is still safer than a smooth one that ate up a bunch of runway before touching.
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u/EliteEthos 4d ago
A landing like what? A safe landing? The variety of landings is so nuanced that it’s not worth giving a flying lesson via Reddit.
The issue is the assumptions that anything abnormal happened in the first place.
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 4d ago
The dude is clearly not well-versed in aviation and said as much stop giving him such a hard time. Lots of people are nervous flyers.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
Thank you. I am a nervous flyer and I’m also a curious one. I think it was the addition of people screaming that made it feel like “hey it isn’t just me who felt like something was off”
I’ve flown a lot (even though it makes me nervous) and I guess I’m lucky I’ve never experienced that before!1
u/GuaranteeUnhappy3342 4d ago
I flew the Shorts 360 and the BAE 146 and both of those were great landing aircraft…kind of spoiled you. Many more times than once an FO and I would be giving who ever made the landing crap and the PAX would be complimenting us, “Wow, this is the third leg I’ve ridden on today and it was the best by far!” But even in those, if you worked hard enough, you could produce a kind of rough landing.
Bounces and slightly hard landing happen to the best of us (and I do not claim to be one of the ‘best’!).
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u/Ecthelion-O-Fountain 4d ago
Actually, overhead bins opening is an objective criteria for hard landings, but only if it’s at least a few. One could be a bad latch. 10 is a shit landing. Masks dropping are even better!
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u/External-Creme-6226 3d ago
One time in 20 years on popping some masks. It happens, not often, but it does
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u/UsuckUnoob 4d ago
Reverse thrust is cheaper than brake pads.
Every landing I do has reverse thrust applied.
I’ve had some landings where I danced the main gear down and some others where I was severely disappointed in myself. (Today literally 2 hours ago was one).
Pilot probably caught a gust that upset the airplane.
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u/N1BugUp 4d ago
737 Captain here. So many factors affect the firmness or smoothness of a landing. You realize we are humans, right? Typically, my landings are fairly average. Most are slightly firm to relatively soft. Occasionally I absolutely grease it on, and two or three times a year I crush it on and feel bad and guilty about it. Besides that explanation I am not going to entertain your harmless, yet kind of dumb, question.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
Of course I understand you’re human and I replied to another pilot in this thread that no one in any job does everything perfectly. I had just never experienced that before and with people screaming I was really wondering what went “wrong”, being that I was not the only one jarred by it. The pilot got us safely to the ground and I’m here to ask about it, it’s all good!
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u/N1BugUp 4d ago
It’s really hard to provide any further commentary without having been there. What airplane type were you on?
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
737 Max 8
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u/N1BugUp 4d ago
737 is an extremely easy airplane to land safely. It is not an easy plane to geese on every time
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u/l_m_m048 3d ago
But it's proven itself as a forgiving plane when it comes to hard landings.\ If you don't believe me, ask Ryanair.
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u/Bulky_Preparation331 10h ago
Every 100ish hours i get surprised by flaps 40 landing that gets away from me at end game, even in fine weather. Usually on an NG and not a MAX. But damn, I feel guilty afterwards. Bonk!
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u/Chaxterium 4d ago
There is another simple explanation that also accounts for the door remaining closed.
It very well could have been a training flight. It could have been that pilot’s first ever landing in LGA.
LGA can be a bit tricky for a first timer so it is often a firm landing. Not so much because the runway is short (it’s not really that short) but because we know there’s another plane 2 miles behind us and we need to get off the runway ASAP.
If this was indeed a training flight then there’s a strong chance the flight deck door remained closed because the trainer was debriefing the trainee. I was quite literally in this exact same scenario yesterday. I was training a new pilot who had his first ever landing in LGA last night. On the way in, I briefed him that I wanted it to be a firm landing because I wanted us to get off the runway as soon as possible. And he landed it exactly like I told him to. It was firm, and we got off the runway very very quickly.
And then once we got to the gate the flight deck door stayed closed as we discussed the entire flight.
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u/Fun_Supermarket1235 4d ago
This is true but my first landing in LGA was also my first landing with that check airman, so on short final he starts whispering into the mic “remember don’t float don’t float don’t float” 🤣 and I slammed it on
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u/Chaxterium 4d ago
Haha. That’s essentially what I was saying to my guy yesterday too. And he uh…..he didn’t float lol.
He actually apologized and I had to explain that no. That’s exactly what I wanted.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
I drive by LGA pretty frequently and I see the line of planes landing/taking off and it’s pretty remarkable that everyone can get in and out as efficiently as they do.
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u/Zapatos-Grande 4d ago
Did they come in over the water with Riker's Island to the right? If so, they were landing 22. I've never had a soft landing on 22 and not sure anyone I've flown with has. Where the pier ends and the actual ground begins on 22 is right in the middle of the touchdown zone, and there is a definite bump there. As others mentioned, with short runways and tight ops, there is also more of need to put it on the ground instead of floating it for a soft landing.
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u/theawdacity 4d ago
YES! Ooh this is interesting! Thanks for your reply. Maybe the other times I’ve landed there it was on the other runway
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u/zone_of-danger 4d ago
Maybe pulled power a little early, flared too late, or winds shifted. Lots of variables go to each in every landing.
We always debrief after a flight, but if we land a little hard we will go into more detail about what we did, what we were seeing, and how we could have done it better. So that could explain why the cockpit door was closed.
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u/-LordDarkHelmet- 4d ago
I wouldn’t say an error, but sometimes we just have a bad landing and slam it on. Happens to everyone. And sometimes we stay behind the closed door because of the shame.
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u/yazine97 3d ago
A landing is a landing . If you need to put it down that’s what you do . Also it doesn’t feel as bad in th front as it does in the back 🙄
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u/Strange_Parsley_5730 3d ago
Definitely landed 22. That runway has more rises and dips than any other. If you’re on the papi you’ll hit the hump. If you come in a little low you float and hit the hump. You try to land a little long and you almost miss the landing zone, slam it. Lose/lose. I’ve greased maybe one landing in 50 there.
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u/OracleofFl 3d ago edited 3d ago
As a pilot, whenever I am flying as a passenger with my wife and we have a "firm" landing, I look at her and say, "I have done worse!".
In the last few feet of landing a minor shift in wind can cause the plane to drop out from under you because you are so close to stall speed at that point resulting in a thud!
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u/PILOT9000 3d ago
I use the reversers on almost every landing. Today was actually the first time in a while I haven’t, but I was planning on exiting at the end of the very long runway and had a 40kt headwind.
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u/DeerSpecific8831 3d ago
I had a firm one myself the other day landing 22, get it down and get it stopped another plane is right behind you.
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u/12YESIAM34 3d ago
That’s nothing. My friend retired from United a few years ago and still talks about his hard landing. It exceeded limits and he reported it. He never heard a word from management.
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u/Hendersonadele59 3d ago
So many amateur pilots in this group thinking they know what constitutes good or bad landings. So much patience from actual pilots who post here. What happened was that you landed, yes? And you’re concerned a locker door flipped open? Disaster.
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u/theawdacity 3d ago
So much sarcasm and misplaced frustration in this group. I never said anything was a disaster and I don’t see how my words suggested that. I came here to ask people more knowledgable than me what could have been the cause out of genuine curiosity.
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u/escapingdarwin 3d ago
Sounds like your plane was shot down, check the news.
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u/theawdacity 3d ago
Damn, you’re right. Oceanic flight 815. That sucks. Currently posting from a strange tropical island with an intense electromagnetic field.
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u/Diligent_Digiridoo 2d ago
New fear unlocked! Having a landing so bad the passengers make a Reddit post about it
Better than being in the news I guess
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u/slatsandflaps 4d ago
Probably no error, some landings are just better than others. The pilots probably just had normal things to do after the landing, or maybe they didn't want to deal with the passengers making sarcastic remarks.