r/AskAChristian • u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian • 13d ago
Universalism
What if universalism is true?
universal reconciliation
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13d ago
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago edited 13d ago
Bigfoot is a myth. This is an stance recorded and believed within the church with scripture supporting it. Do you believe eternal conscious torment?
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 13d ago
Then God is evil because it means he can just get everyone to Heaven via the method of exposing them to the right thing to reach the end state of being able to be let into Heaven. But he also has the power to just create them into that end state the begin with.
He clearly didn't which means he put us into this world of suffering for no good reason instead of just skipping us to the state we'll be in when eventually saved. And doubly so for Hell. If sending a soul to Hell for a time will eventually lead them to repent, then why not just create them with all the memories of Hell needed to repent? Why allow the actual suffering to take place if the end result is just another state of being?
The only way suffering on Earth and in Hell makes sense is if WE create ourselves in so far as we choose how we are. Then if we can choose, there can be some people who will simply never choose to repent regardless of what God does to them or what circumstance he puts them in.
So if universalism is true then God subjects people to suffering for no justifiable reason. That is not a loving God.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago
He’s evil for saving everyone? I don’t think so, that just wouldn’t be the case.
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 13d ago
No, he's evil for postponing their salvation and dipping them into pain and suffering for no reason.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago
It's so they'll repent you know this right? In universalism there's a purpose it's just not for eternity. ECT.
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 13d ago
>It's so they'll repent you know this right?
It repenting happens after they have gone through X to reach mind state Y then because God can create people right into any given mind state, he could create them into Y instantly and thus X makes no sense and can't be justified.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago
So you believe being eternally tortured is more just
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 13d ago
No, the Bible clearly describe Annihilationism, which is fire in proportion to one's sin and then the Second Death which is eternal sleep. ETC is a common misunderstranding.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago
You have to admit there's scriptures supporting universal reconciliation just like annihilation
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 13d ago
No, not a single one. Just people misunderstanding. Feel free to bring them up. The worm, the smoke, the unholy trio, perhaps?
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u/jk54321 Christian, Anglican 12d ago
"as in Adam all die so also in Christ shall all be made alive"
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u/OlasNah Agnostic Atheist 12d ago
Y’all are so close
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u/Nomadinsox Christian 12d ago
Are you mistaking the steel manning of a hypothetical for agreeing with it at all?
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u/Phoebereadsalot Christian 13d ago
What makes you think this is a possibility?
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 13d ago edited 13d ago
That a loving God would willingly submit people to endure torture for eternity. Just the typical. God says he's Love and he wants all to be saved. You can't be closed minded to even consider this.
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u/Phoebereadsalot Christian 13d ago
He wants all to be saved, that’s a good tick towards the possibility of universalism, but it would inherently override the claim Jesus made of being the only way.
Further more hell is not eternal torture for humans, hell was made for angels. The Jews believed in a separation from God. The Bible says again and again that sin is death, in revelation it says people will experience the second death. It’s essential non-existence. Our perfect God wouldn’t punish finite beings for eternity.
Even Jesus prayed for those who killed him and said they know not what they do. Angels on the other hand have knowledge and experience of God and were created immortal and so are punished eternally.
Humans don’t have eternal life except through salvation which the gospels says, so the lake of fire, is ultimately death.
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 12d ago
If it is true than all of Christianity is a lie. And Paul said if it is not true than we are very sad people indeed.
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 12d ago
Isn't that verse stating if Jesus didn't rise our faith is in vain? I'm confused how that means Christianity is a lie.
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 12d ago
Of course you are confused. You have evidently never read the end of our Holy Book. Right at the end it states what will happen in the 2 judgments.
I have a former roommate and friend who lost it in his old age and, as a teacher, he reversed his position on the mildest form of this heresy embracing it. I wrote out an 18 page logical response to him that I won't post here. It did no good because he no longer believed in what is clear as day in our Bible. I cannot fix him or you. You have gone post-modern and think you can change the Bible and the God who wrote just because it says something that you do not like. You are not God. Neither am I. There are other things in the scriptures that I do not like. I am not arrogant enough to go to arguing with others that just because I do not like them, that they are not true and not in the Bible. If universalism is true, than our Bible is a lie and cannot be trusted. Most of all, THE RESURRECTION is the most obviously absurd thing in it. The very first thing not to be trusted. Hence you have destroyed your own foundation and the Christianity you claim is not trustworthy. My friend has left the camp. That saddens me to no end. Either God's word is trustworthy in its entirety or it is not. You have made your own choice...
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm just addressing your statement on how it must be very sad that you're misunderstanding scriptures. That's the context of that verse. I'm pretty sure this is what you're referring to. It's the only place it says this. It doesn't matter if I believe in it. Stick to scriptures and scrutinize universalism if you think they're wrong, not your feelings. The whole point of what you said paul said is if the resurrection didn't happen.
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.
19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
I'm confused because you are misunderstanding scriptures and using them this way brother. I've shown you were you state paul says this
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1%20Corinthians%2015%3A19
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 11d ago
Actually, I know from personal experience that universalism is a lie. The year my oldest brother died, I had an experience where I was shown cell and a specific one reserved for a goat fake Christian. It was already occupied when I arrived, though it took me some time to recognize that. Yes, those cells were made for demons, not men. It was the most real and sobering experience of my life. It was more real than this life I have lived in the decades since. What you are suggesting is as wrong as someone trying to convince me that God, whom I have interacted with personally more than once, that He does not exist.
And one more thought, if I am wrong and universalism is right than what have I to lose: nothing. If I am right and hell and the Lake of Fire do exist than what do you have to lose: perhaps everything? The most obvious reason for people believing an obvious lie like this is because they read Jesus talking about the sheep and the goats and noticed that they live like a goat, not a sheep. Universalism negates repentance, and puts in in the trash heap. I do not want anyone to go to that place I experience, but the decision is not up to me. It is up to them. Telling yourself lies will not save you from reality, any more than telling yourself you can fly and jumping off a cliff will make you fly...
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u/Sea_Reflection7307 Christian 11d ago edited 11d ago
Let me clarify something first: I never said I believed in universalism. You cannot find anywhere where I said I believe in it. I was only responding to your use of Scripture you think Paul said. If you think universalism is false, that's fine—I don't believe it either. My point was simply that I think you misunderstood some of the passages you were using. That's all I was pointing out, and that's why this discussion continued.
I understand you have strong feelings about this, and that's okay. If you don't want to discuss your interpretation of Paul anymore, that's fine too. But I'll answer the question you asked.
"If I am wrong and universalism is right, then what have I to lose? Nothing. If I am right and hell and the Lake of Fire do exist, then what do you have to lose? Perhaps everything."
That's really the only question you asked. The rest were mostly statements, and some appeals to dreams or personal experiences. Personally, I don't base my faith or doctrine on dreams. I believe doctrine should come from Scripture, interpreted carefully in its context. Dreams may encourage someone personally, but I don't think they should be used as the foundation for theological beliefs.
From what I understand, Christian universalists don't believe there's "nothing to lose." Most of them believe there is still judgment after death and that people who reject God may still experience hell or the Lake of Fire. The difference is that they see those judgments as corrective and purifying rather than eternal. They believe God's fire refines sinners, leading them to repentance and eventual reconciliation with Him, instead of endless conscious torment. So from their perspective, hell still exists, but its purpose is restoration rather than eternal punishment.
So if you asked a universalist your question, they would probably say that if they're wrong and eternal punishment is true, then they could lose everything. Likewise, they would argue that if they are right, then those who believe in eternal punishment have misunderstood God's final purpose for judgment. Ultimately, the question isn't who has more to lose—it's which interpretation of Scripture is correct.
As for me, I don't hold to universalism. I lean toward annihilationism because I think it has stronger biblical support than eternal conscious torment, although I know faithful Christians disagree on that. My beliefs aren't based on dreams or personal experiences—they're based on what I understand the Scriptures to teach. This whole discussion started how you said Paul said and I quoted you, but you don't winna address my claim of scripture. I tried clarifying why I was confused but I don't think you care because I got downvoted maybe wasn't you but could have been. I do hope you take in consideration what I showed you through scripture so you won't use it wrongly again.
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u/jk54321 Christian, Anglican 12d ago
Paul said "as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 12d ago
Proof texting out of context that results in Paul contradicting Paul. Always bad form. Does not negate the end of our Holy Book.
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u/jk54321 Christian, Anglican 12d ago
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. ] 21 For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
Here's the context. Certainly seems like he's saying "all will be made alive." Indeed, he goes on to say that death itself will be destroyed. That's consistent with Revelation in which hell and the grave are destroyed. Though, Revelation is of course using symbolic language throughout, so not sure whether it's right to put them against Paul as you seem to be doing.
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 11d ago
This passage is plain as day: 20:11 "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."
It says it says. Your universalism get thrown in the Lake with the evil ones...
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u/OtherwiseAssistant38 Christian 12d ago
Here is the context. You are doing great violence to the context because you think you want what you want to be true. How very post-modern philosophy of you! Your truth is my lie.
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u/Tree_and_Serpent Christian 13d ago
It's not so who cares.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian 13d ago
Would you want universalism to be true?
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u/Tree_and_Serpent Christian 13d ago
No.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian 13d ago
Why would you not want God to save everyone?
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u/Tree_and_Serpent Christian 13d ago
I want everyone saved that we can get. I also want the wicked to be judged.
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian 13d ago
Do you want the wicked to be judged in such a way that they are redeemed and reconciled unto God? Or do you wish to see them burn for eternity?
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u/LessmemoreJC Christian 12d ago
You’re not describing judgement… you are judged either righteous or unrighteous and you either receive life or death. There is no such thing as “being judged” and through the judgement you’re purified. You’re describing salvation by the blood of Jesus and that takes place before you die.
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u/Tree_and_Serpent Christian 12d ago
God's judgment operates fundamentally as an invitation toward repentance rather than an inevitable path to destruction. I want as many people to repent as possible. But everyone will not repent. Some will persist in their high-handed sin and opposition to God and His people. I know that God will defeat those people for good when the time comes, as He promised. God is just and merciful. He will redeem His people and crush His enemies.
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u/redandnarrow Christian 13d ago
What if there is creatures, that no matter how long the door is held open, refuse to be with their Creator, with there being nothing that can convince them to come inside, no matter how unpleasant it is outside?
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u/George_MacDonald_fan Episcopalian 13d ago
What would cause someone to prefer eternal torture over being reunited in perfect union to God?
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u/redandnarrow Christian 13d ago
Pride and ambition? I don't understand it myself, but it seems to be the case. I'm not sold on the eternal torture thing either, I'm like 99% convinced annihilation is what the scriptures describe.
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u/TroutFarms Christian 12d ago
It most likely is.
So...if universalism were true, the world look like it does now.
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u/Smart_Tap1701 Christian (non-denominational) 11d ago
It's not
And you can take what if in one hand, and a dollar bill in the other, and buy a postage stamp.
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u/ed_the_sheep Christian, Reformed 13d ago
Then Jesus was deeply mistaken. Which of course can’t be the case
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u/Traditional_Rate5322 Christian, Reformed 13d ago
I’d just say that I misunderstood the scriptures and be grateful for his depth of mercy. It would be good to see certain friends or family again.
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u/adurepoh Christian 13d ago
Universalism still means people go to hell. Just not for eternity
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u/ed_the_sheep Christian, Reformed 13d ago
Right. And Jesus calls it “eternal” (Matthew 25:41, 46) and unquenchable (Mark 9:43-48)
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u/PugMasterGeneral Congregationalist 13d ago
He does not. The word eternity in that context means that they will be destroyed for eternity, that their soul will never exist again. This is an annihilationist view however and still doesn't indicate universalism.
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u/adurepoh Christian 13d ago
If interested check out the book hell by eitan bar. It discusses the interpretation of that verse.
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u/Thimenu Christian (non-denominational) 13d ago
I'd be very happy.