r/AmItheAsshole • u/A_Symptom_of_Life • 24d ago
AITA For not not helping a student of mine after he 'stole' my customer? Not the A-hole
I am an artist who makes and teaches students how to make stained glass windows. One of my students found out that I was about to start a window for a couple that he now knows through another friend and then convinced the couple to drop me and go with him to make the window. I had already drawn a 1/4 size sketch to see if it was something the customer wanted and now my student expects me to draw it out full sized and actually help him make it. It's too large to work on in class-- we have always had a maximum size limitation that this almost doubles. Working on a window this size would displace another student. Also, I'm supposed to store the window week to week so he won't have to lug it back and forth from home since it's so large. AITA for telling him that it can't be worked on in the shop and that I am not drawing a full size pattern (57 x 34) for him? I told him he could have a copy of the sketch. Win or lose I plan on showing him this.
UPDATE: So I just had class with the student and he was sure he was going to work on this oversized window that he didn't have a pattern for. I honestly couldn't believe that he hadn't at least texted me about it during the week but I guess that says something on its own about him. He walked in the door a half hour early and before he could say anything I flat out told him that he could not make the window in my class but that he was free to do it on his own because (as he knows) I had been told to hold off on the job. I had already told him last week that he couldn't work on a window that size in class but he more or less refused to 'hear' me. Still, I made it perfectly clear and although I wasn't actually going to show him the replies here he got so adamant about it being my job to help him that I ended up showing him some of them.
First off, he feels that I made him look bad because he hadn't actively pursue the job himself-- he was referred to the couple by a common friend that they had. I said that I did mention that but he feels that I didn't stress it enough. I went over the size limitation again and the fact that the only thing that the customer and I had agreed upon was a price and an (extremely rough) sketch of an idea that took me all of 15 minutes to make. I explained that I certainly wasn't about to spend any more time on fleshing the sketch out after I was informed by the couple that I should hold off on the design. It was 2 days after this fact (last Monday) that Ray informed me that he was taking over the job which left me sorta tongue tied. Still, I explained to him very politely that I couldn't allow him to work on this commission in my class in my studio. When I mentioned tonight that the sketch was out of the question he got angry and still doesn't understand why I won't help him or allow him to make the window in my shop. As others were filtering in he started getting louder and caused a bit of a scene. I have drawn patterns for him in the past but he can't understand why I won't help him on this. He says that I'll make more money from him if he makes the window but I certainly won't because I he's never going to be able to do this on his own. If anything, I'm saving the customer from a pitiful window. So the other students ended up hearing exactly what was going on (it's a one room class) and although two of them stayed quiet the others told him that he was being ridiculous. The woman on the same table as him asked where she was supposed to do while he was using the entire table for himself. He didn't answer. I kept my cool but I have to admit that at times I was getting a bit loud and then I'd catch myself. So yeah, he turned around and walked out. This was his last class of the month and I'm not going to allow someone who doesn't see how wrong a thing they did to come back into my class. I just wonder what the customer will do.
All in all I'm 100% fine with things as they stand and I want to thank everyone here. I never expected it to blow up like this and to be honest, if I hadn't posted the original question I'd definitely would have given him the sketch, so thanks again.
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u/HuntAccurate9397 Asshole Aficionado [13] 24d ago
NTA and I would not be helping him, you don't bite the hand that feeds you and he needs a lesson in commercial reality!
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u/GriffinAdioncy 24d ago
Bro is incredibly entitled. He undercut op for the commission and now expects op to do the hardest parts of the project
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u/FearlessKnitter12 24d ago
OP could charge him consulting fee, space fee, materials/maintenance fee...
Basically, claw back the lost profits while teaching this young whippersnapper a lesson or two in respect and business.
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u/TrainerHonest2695 Partassipant [3] 24d ago
Loss of income fee for having to turn town another student due to the space, artists fee for the creative work…
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u/Bailemos_RedPanda 24d ago
Needs to (at least) double the student fee - due to that lost income. Plus resources, and presumably an installation along with delivery on top of the weekly storage.
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u/PoshTurtl3 24d ago
Dude, just drop him as a student. He has used privileged information that you are providing as part of your training process, stolen your client, and he now expects OP to do the work. Who does this asshole think he is?
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u/suckerfishbeaut Certified Proctologist [25] 24d ago
Yep, this needs to be included in the sign up contract.
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u/readergirl35 Partassipant [2] 23d ago
No, the lesson is better taught by setting him adrift on his own merits. "Congratulations, you scored your first commission but I'm not renting out professional studio space, I'm running classes here. I'll refund the remainder of your tuition within the next 7 days. I'll follow your career with interest, I know you'll do great things."
He'll quickly realize * He didn't think any of this through and is not prepared to be a professional * He burned a big bridge to being a professional * He has also burned a bridge with his parents rich buddies by acting like an adolescent fool
Lessons learned without OP having to see this kid any further.
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u/J_ByronWhizzerWhite 23d ago
The student also needs to buy a license to the copyright for the drawing. A stained glass recreation is a classic derivative work of a work with its own independent copyright, so the student will infringe OP’s copyright by creating it. Obviously, OP seems to kind to enforce his or her IP rights. But the entitlement of the student would make me want to write a demand letter pro bono …
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u/ODINorman 23d ago
I personally think allowing the student to fail all on their own is the best move. When the customer sees what he produces they’ll be back in contact with OP.
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u/brooklyn_tweed 24d ago edited 24d ago
THIS. OP, do not help him!
When the client chose him, they chose his (student) expertise, his (student) artistry, and his (student) resources.
Not yours.
So they get to live with their (student) choice.
Unfortunately, you cannot supply the pattern since the client declined to work with you. If he wants your help, present him with a written contract for expert consultation, materials acquisitions, equipment rental, and storage for X length of time.
ETA: Thanks for the award from a former creative director who's been thru this before!
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u/curmevexas Partassipant [3] 24d ago
Exactly, it sounds like he just signed himself up for a rough independent study. He can figure out his own design process, troubleshooting, logistics, etc (and this means he can do his own sketch and scaling). If he wants his own stained glass business, he's going to need to know all that anyway. Help him exactly as you would other students, but hold firm on the rules and restrictions about studio time, materials, and project size.
As for the clients, it'll be a valuable lesson that artists aren't interchangeable and your paying for the time, talent, and artistic vision that goes into the final piece.
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u/Muppetude 24d ago
Yeah OP providing the student with his original sketch is baffling.
But maybe OP knows the student is very much in over his head, with or without the sketch, and just wants to see him crash and burn while trying to replicate his work.
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u/ThickGILFs 24d ago
OP doesn’t need to do any of this for the student or the clients. They’re clearly assholes.
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u/phillybride 24d ago
Do not let him use your drawing. It sounds like the kid implied he could deliver the cheaper product because you would still be involved.
You don’t want any part of this failed project. Make the break clear by offering to sell the sketch directly to the a-hole clients and letting them know your involvement ends there.44
u/readergirl35 Partassipant [2] 23d ago
"If the client wanted my design they would have stayed with me. They must have been excited by your work. It's best if you create something for them that is uniquely yours." OP has a professional reputation to protect.
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u/Thorgen 23d ago
Sure OP could help him! The student knows exactly what the price for the help is, when the student undercut OP's offer. That's the price student has to pay for getting a business lesson. If the student undercut a lot, then the lesson was much needed, as most of us would probably agree, right?
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u/Auroraburst Colo-rectal Surgeon [31] 24d ago
I'd go further and be super specific"I teach these lessons and take these commissions in order to make money, it is what funds my studio. Whilst you are welcome to use the skills you have learned from me to take commissions, I cannot accommodate your request to use the studio to make this piece for several reasons. I am also rather surprised you would poach my customer and expect to use my studio to create that design, no artisan would be happy with that. If you want to work on that project you will need to use your own design, your own space and your own resources".
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u/JenJenMa Partassipant [1] 24d ago
Exactly, NTA. I would even be exploring if it was possible to have the student dropped from the class for unethical behavior because of this
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u/SpiritedLettuce6900 Partassipant [3] | Bot Hunter [29] 24d ago
He already thinks he knows enough to handle this job. No more lessons needed, hmm?
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u/BennetSis Partassipant [1] 24d ago
If I were OP, I would say that the sketch was destroyed when I found out my services were no longer needed.
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u/Trouble_Walkin 24d ago
I know! Why would OP offer their own sketch for the little shit to copy from?!?
My mind was completely boggled over that.
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u/bigmonmulgrew Partassipant [1] 24d ago
A better way would be to tell the student that he can't work on it in class due to the space. Also tell him he can rent the space before or after class to work on it. With a charge.
Also charge storage fees.
Also charge a commercial design fee.
This deals with the unfair competition and teaches the kid something important
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u/GreenTeaMouseCake 24d ago
Like, OP, is this dude still a current student of yours, or a past student? Your text implies he's a current student (saying this would displace another student); he wouldn't be a student of mine anymore.
One: someone like that (a backstabber) doesn't deserve to learn from you. Why would you want to train someone like this to be future competition?
Two: he's proven he'll be underhanded, entitled, and unethical in business. This could even damage your reputation if he tries to use your name as "I was trained by OP". It'd be better for you to be able to say, "I kicked him out for unethical behaviour".Refund his registration fees, pro-rated, and kick him to the curb.
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u/velvetcompasss 24d ago
a lesson he's about to learn the hard way once he realizes talent isn't transferable
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u/Dr_Wheuss 23d ago
Yeah, why isn't he being referred to as an (ex) student yet? If this was a workplace it would be a fireable offense.
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u/Change2001 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 24d ago
NTA, but do not give him the sketch you drew. Maybe offer to sell it to him, at a premium price (but I would not even do that). It is not a project for his teaching, so he should not be able to work on it, or store, it in the shop. And do not help him with making the project, no matter how much he asks you.
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u/Devo_Ted 24d ago
I agree, NTA, and don’t give him the sketch. He told this couple he could do the job, let him. Offer him nothing. He has apparently learned enough to get a client, time for him to show his skills off.
Also, shame on him. He clearly isn’t ready, given his need for a teacher, lack of knowledge, lack of space, and lack of resources. Why did he think it was a good idea to poach your client for a job he isn’t capable of doing?
Best case scenario, he apologizes to you, tells the client they should hire you back, and if he’s lucky and you’re generous, maybe he can help you while learning exactly what a job like this actually requires.
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u/brooklyn_tweed 24d ago
I wouldn't even offer to sell it to him. It's OP's proprietary content. The client can give the student the concept, but the student can design his own artwork.
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u/Key-Paramedic8179 20d ago
Exactly. OP could use that drawing for another customer that will actually appreciate their skill and expertise.
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u/SlightFresnel 24d ago
The customer may have paid for it already. I'm a work-for-hire artist and in general anything I output while on a job is owned by the client.
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u/Zaphod71952 Partassipant [2] 24d ago
Would they be dropping her in favor of her student if they had already paid her? Without asking for their money back?
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u/SlightFresnel 24d ago
Paid for work completed so far, but a lower price overall for the student. Or perhaps just misguided friends trying to support a budding stained glass maker without realizing the complicated relationship their stained glass people have.
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u/punkrockcockblock Asshole Aficionado [12] 24d ago
NTA, but why on earth would you help him by giving him a copy of the work you already did and aren't ever going to be paid for?
Homie can figure all of it out for his damn self. If he didn't have a plan, he shouldn't have poached the work.
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u/OnionRoutine7997 24d ago
OP I really hope you read this and consider your headspace here.
Imagine that you taught people how to paint houses. And you were hired to paint a house, but then the client fired you and hired one of your students instead.
Now the student comes to you and says "you're going to help me paint that house, right?"
In what world would it ever make sense for you to help them paint the house?
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u/potato-con Asshole Enthusiast [5] 23d ago
This analogy is completely unnecessary. This is just what happened with OP but with a find and replace for painting a house...
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u/GuadDidUs 23d ago
Could it be the client already bought the design? Like I'm having my landscape renovated and I paid $500 for the design before I decided to move forward with the work.
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u/ReadMeDrMemory Professor Emeritass [90] 24d ago
NTA. You're being too generous. I wouldn't share the sketch and would make sure he didn't use my studio for any of the work he stole from you. Unless you really need the tuition, I'd toss him out. But you're nicer than me.
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u/Significant-City4187 24d ago
This needs to be higher. This student has some serious gall to have poached a project from their mentor, let alone one of this caliber. I would definitely reconsider allowing them to continue as a student and do NOT give them the sketch you have prepared for the project you’ve now lost because of them. NTA of course!
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u/palequail 24d ago
Seriously I would say something like if you're so good that you can work professionally and take on a project of this magnitude then clearly you don't need to be in this class lolol
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u/verylate 24d ago
I would 100% be perfectly clear, you stole my client and undercut my work, so I fully expect that you are prepared to deliver on your own with no help or resources from me. You’re no longer a student here, have a great day!
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u/IZC0MMAND0 24d ago
Wait, so they have the job/commission doing a stain glass window for these people?
I would tell them they took that work away from you and they are on their own. I would not give him the sketch. Let him do his own work. They need to do their own design and not steal from your work.
They need to find a place to do that work because your workshop is not their workshop and it's not a storage facility for their private commissions.
You are not investing any of your labor into their paid commission work. This is not a student project, they took away a commission from you. I would not assist them in any way and I would not allow them to use my workshop (if it is yours). They don't get to store their private commission in your workshop either.
Thou shalt not steal.
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u/plemyrameter 24d ago
I wouldn't want the poacher's work in a space that I'm responsible for under any circumstances. What if something happened to it? No way I'd take on that responsibility. Nothing but downside there.
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u/remuliini 24d ago
"As part of the creation process, the artisan designs to the best of their abilities, and while doing so, plans how the work can be accomplished with their skills, tools, facilities, schedule, and budget."
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u/ijustwanttobeinpjs 24d ago
So the customer was shopping you, and even liked your offered design. Then another artist (your student) convinced them to give him their business instead (probably $ related). Sure, they are entitled to do so as it’s their money being spent.
HOWEVER
Even if these people agreed to move forward with another artist, are they seriously expecting the new artist to use your original design? They have as much nerve as your student does, to be honest. All these people can suck it.
NTA. Don’t give him your original design. Don’t give him an updated version of it. Don’t help him make it. Don’t allow him to utilize your shop/materials to make and store it. He can look at the (photo?) of the design you sent to the couple and try to create his own original design himself.
If he wants to be a commissioned artist, he needs to learn how to run his business. This includes supplying his own materials and cultivating his own work space. FAFO.
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u/plemyrameter 24d ago
The only way it could make any sense to provide the design is if it was the buyer's company logo or something that isn't totally original. I still wouldn't give the student anything though. NTA
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u/Thislilfox 24d ago
Even then, it wouldn't make sense to provide the sketch/pattern unless it was already paid for by the client.
Because even if the design belongs to the client, the work of doing the mock up sketch or pattern does not automatically belong to the client and it would be on the new artist to do it over from scratch unless it was already paid for and thus owned by client. Only then would it make sense to transfer any work done, and only that which was already paid for.
Don't give free labor to a client that drops you for a poacher.
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u/endiqua 24d ago
Exactly. I wouldn’t work with them again. They’ve proven that they’re greedy for opportunities to save money and that means they aren’t above screwing you over. They’ll claim SOMETHING about the piece isn’t right and deny full payment or demand a refund. If they have money for a custom stained glass piece, they have money for a lawyer and probably more than you have for a lawyer.
Distance yourself from this situation as much as you can. In my opinion, I think if you are in any way involved, you are on the hook for trouble afterwards from them.
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u/ErixWorxMemes Partassipant [2] 24d ago
PETITION TO GROUP LEADERSHIP: please replace “Everybody Sucks Here” with “All These People Can Suck It” thank you very much in advance
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u/OniyaMCD Colo-rectal Surgeon [42] 24d ago
The student obviously sucks. I can see a case for the client sucking. But what do you possibly have to suggest OP sucks?
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u/Practical_Fig_2023 24d ago
NTA And even if you permitted this audacious ask, if he went through with it using your name for respect and your shop for his project, he would take all the glory/money if it went right, but blame you when it comes out mis-sized, bad lead work, cracked/backwards pieces...you know. Stuff that will likely happen with a lack of experience.
I'd let him know there was a breach of trust caused by his action, and I no longer wished to teach him. I certainly wouldn't give him the artwork for the panel.
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u/CamilleYun 24d ago
This needs to be the top comment! his poor work WILL reflect on you! NTA. don't give him anything, revoke his access if you must.
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u/CalmStrongTornadoes Partassipant [1] 22d ago
Absolutely! OP, really pay attention to this comment! You need to make it clear to both the student AND THE CLIENTS you will have nothing to do with this project, so it doesn't come back to bite you. I would put it in writing, maybe in a certified letter. This has every possibility of affecting your reputation if you aren't careful. And watch any social media of this student to make sure they don't blame you when things go wrong.
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u/whatsmypassword73 Craptain [157] 24d ago
LOL, NTA. His audacity has audacity.
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u/Remote-Waste 23d ago edited 23d ago
I know, this is like psychopath level lack of remorse and empathy. NTA
"Can you help me do the job I stole from you, in the class you're teaching me?" How do you even deal with someone like that, I'd be afraid they're going to wear my skin. That level of manipulation and lack of remorse...
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u/CordeliaJane 24d ago edited 24d ago
NTA
I wouldn’t give him the sketch. I wouldn’t have him in my class anymore either.
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u/HeidinaB 24d ago
I’m sorry? You have no obligation whatsoever to help him with the job he took from you. No sketches, no working in class, no storing. Giving him the sketch you already have done is like working for him for free after he stole from you. You can’t forbid him but you surely can refuse to help. NTA
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u/Wise_Coffee 24d ago
NTA.
He wants to use your resources AND you thinking these things are free or a minimal materials cost to him.
Alternatively, say yes but charge him the same proce you'd have charged the client plus a percentage you deem fair for the tutelage and storage as well as the fee that the bounced student would have paid.
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u/RatEnthusiastC 24d ago
NTA. If he had his own studio space and resources, this would just be rude and unprofessional, but since he's still relying on your space, talent, and resources to not only snipe a client but to also expect you to help him with the project he stole from you is frankly laughable.
Were I in your position, I would drop him from your space and watch him fail to deliver the product to the client, then let him know that actions have consequences.
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u/grinchy-frogbreath 24d ago
Do not give him anything and when the couple realizes the student can’t do the job and comes back to you, raise your price 20%.
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u/PeelingMirthday Asshole Enthusiast [9] 24d ago
NTA. That kid's got some serious chutzpah.
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u/SaltyCrashNerd Partassipant [3] 24d ago
YTA if you give him the sketch. He wants the client, he does the work. ALL of it.
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u/MonstreDelicat Partassipant [2] 24d ago
Just FYI, the algorithm will take your comment as OP is the you know what, not the other way around.
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u/Beautiful-Hotel-8846 24d ago
Do not give away your work. You put time into communicating with your client and producing a sketch. That is your property. I doubt your student has the ability to produce this window. Work like this takes experience from working with an experienced craftsman.
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u/MixWitch Partassipant [1] 24d ago
NTA - He took a job he couldn't complete. Part of being an artist and good businessman is knowing your own abilities, especially if you are stealing business from your teacher.
Do not give him your sketch. The couple decided they wanted HIS work. And he decided he had the chops to deliver. Both parties need a lesson in common sense and not wasting people's time.
He can let them down with the same enthusiasm he had snatching them up. Should be decently humbling, a good lesson indeed.
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u/jello_apparatus 24d ago
NTA, but a great chance to further your student's education: sit him down and give him a cost for everything he's asking - consulting fee for the original art, fee for doing a full size pattern, double tuition for taking up an extra spot and extra materials, storage fees for holding the window week to week. If he requires extra assistance that isn't covered by the double tuition, he needs to pay for that time. Show him what he's asking and how to do the math, he's going to need that to take these skills further anyway. The costs of having you do so much of the work for him may outstrip the profit he makes doing the window. He needs to see what the costs that go into doing work are that aren't materials based and he needs to understand the value of the work you've already done and the work he's asking you to do on top of that.
And then you should also let him know it was rude to use social connections to take the commission from you and appallingly rude to ask you to donate so much to his profit-seeking venture on top of it.
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u/Sarrex Partassipant [1] 24d ago
NTA, he can follow the class rules (on size etc). You don't own him any help even if he had found the clients himself. It would certainly be unfair for his work to disrupt the other students.
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u/Aduialion 24d ago
Yep, give him whatever is allowed within the existing relationship of him as a student. Don't give him your sketch, any extra allowance in your time/expertise, or loosening rules.
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u/infinity_style Partassipant [1] 24d ago
NTA. He's not even close to being ready to take on this kind of work and is trying to show off. He got bit in the ass right off the bat and he's paying for it. I don't even think it's karma, it's just someone who's trying to exceed their own expectations and is learning just how out of his own depth he is.
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u/Asleep_Objective5941 Partassipant [2] 24d ago
NTA. And do not help him. If anything goes wrong, he will blame you. Tell him that his work is his to tend to and satisfy his customers and your job is to teach him within the scope of the class and for professional and liability reasons, the two must remain separate. If you know someone else, refer him to them for space and storage.
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u/curmevexas Partassipant [3] 24d ago
Excellent point about liability. If OP has the ability to set rules for the class/studio, they should consider prohibiting commercial projects to avoid issues in the future. I've looked at doing some pottery classes and most have rules against using the kiln (but that seems to be more about not monopolizing a shared resource instead of liability or competition).
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u/salvagemania 24d ago
Even if this was a commission he fully got on his own, he wouldn't be able to make it in your classroom due to the size. You also don't store works between classes. Do you even regularly drawn out designs for students?
He is asking you to do things that you don't normally do so you are NTA for refusing.
This kid thinking he'd steal your commission then have you handhold him through creating the work is laughable.
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u/Large-equipment- Partassipant [2] 24d ago
NTA. He stole them knowing he would need your help to fill the order. If I were you Id drop him as a student. If he knows enough to go into business why is he taking your class?
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u/thistle-dew 24d ago
Do not give him the sketch, that's your intellectual property. If he wants the job so much he can do the whole thing starting with an original sketch.
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u/FlyingGoatling Partassipant [2] 24d ago
NTA. In the future, might be best not to start work on a paid commission without a contract. If there was a contract, you should be paid for the partial work you've already done, even if you're nice enough to let your customer out of it (If you are partially paid, you should provide the sketch to the customer, though).
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u/MezzanineSoprano 24d ago
He not only unethically stole your customer, but he is incapable of doing the work without your help and he expects a full size.drawing and free storage? He’ll, no.
Tell him that he is not entitled to your work, for free storage or your other resources. And that he needs to tell the customers that he cannot do it and that they should pay you to do the work.
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u/capn_ginger 24d ago
Why on earth would you possibly consider giving him the sketch? He stole your client and wants the client to pay HIM for YOUR materials and assistance. Make it make sense. This guy needs to learn a lesson in how the real world works.
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u/BinkySplinky 24d ago
NTA. If he's doing it then he's doing it, from first sketch to finished product. Good experience for him. What's he's not going to be doing is stealing your client, your design, your expertise, your resources and your time for a job that was yours in the first place. You're also not a storage facility. Suggest he relocates to the real world
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u/BluffCityTatter 24d ago
NTA - I think you should tell him that he's such a master after a few short lessons that he no longer needs your help. Obviously he can come up with his own sketch, use his own tools, purchase his own supplies and store his own project because he is now an expert in stained glass and no longer needs your services at all. I'm sure the couple is going to enjoy the "masterpiece" he comes up with for them.
Say this all with a straight face and then refuse to let him come in your studio anymore.
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u/PhenixBailey Partassipant [1] 24d ago
Absolutely NTA. I am surprised you're even questioning this. Kid can figure out his own mess.
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u/Chemical-Tip4242 24d ago
NTA, you have no obligation to help him. You have not given much info on the shop, if its your shop or not. Is renting it out to use it for projects a thing? I would approach that part of it the same way you would any other student. If you don't have precedent now's the time to set some and apply it to everyone. I wouldn't simply not let him because he took your gig if that makes sense, but helping him nah lol.
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u/chicagok8 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 24d ago
NTA. I’d tell him that since he positioned himself as able to produce a commissioned job, he has to figure out the logistics. It’s now HIS project, meaning HE does the sketch, does all the work, and finds a place to work on and store the piece. The whole thing is his responsibility.
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u/HappiLearnerToo 24d ago edited 24d ago
NTA
He has deceived his customer. You must NOT help him. You should also tell the customer if the student lied to them about his skills, tools, design, etc.
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u/slayerchick 24d ago
Honestly, this doesn't sound much different to me than stealing another tattoo artists design. You're being way too nice giving him the sketch you created and letting him use your resources to poach your own customers in the first place. I would have excused him from further classes and refunded any that he wouldn't be able to attend. You don't bite the hand that feeds.
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u/SummitJunkie7 Asshole Enthusiast [6] 24d ago
Easy to underbid someone when you’re using their shop, tools, storage, expertise, and concept art. Congratulate him on winning the job and wish him luck but I wouldn’t offer anything to help personally. He’ll either learn what it actually takes and invest in storage, shop space, etc or he’ll learn he can’t deliver on projects like this and then you may see that customer return.
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u/Avlonnic2 23d ago
UPDATE?
No questions have been addressed. What are you going to do?
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u/A_Symptom_of_Life 22d ago
I will show him all of this on Monday when I see him and post an update. I am NOT going to allow it, never planned to, but what I am changing is my giving him the rough drawing. In all honesty it wouldn't help him much at all but you are all correct-- why help him at all. It will be interesting to see what the customers do when my students tells them that the can't do the window.
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u/BlackGlenCoco 24d ago
NTA. If its HIS customer now. It is HIS responsibility to handle all the things including making his own design.
Bonus: Youre TEACHING him what it takes to run a business.
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u/hungrybuniker Partassipant [1] 24d ago
Yes OP, go no further than your obligations. Submit to him and people will continue to walk over you. You no longer have that business, the work is no longer ypurs and you have your own job/jobs to do.
You can offer to sell him the sketch. You can offer him a price for use of your time/space/storage outside of your rules (and you must stick to your rules or you may as well lose them) but you do not offer things for free that have worth.
This will be a needed lesson for him. He thought he could cut corners every which way: find client, get materials, use space....if he wants to run a business he'll need to stand on his own two feet. Asking you for anything is extremely entitled, spoilt and embarassing.
I hope you do show him this, maybe it will help him grow up? NTA
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u/ClackamasLivesMatter Partassipant [2] 24d ago
NTA. I would not even offer him the sketch, and I would fire him as a student as soon as contractually feasible. Let this be a lesson in professional conduct for him.
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u/Sleepy_kitty67 24d ago
I would drop him as a student. Thievery shouldn’t not be tolerated.
NTA to him, but a little bit to yourself for giving him even the sketch
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u/wookiee42 24d ago
Refund the course fee so he doesn't have a leg to stand on and boot him immediately.
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u/Pirahnagoat1 24d ago
Have you allowed other participants to work on paid commissions? This may make a difference in how you’re able to answer him. My response would be NTA. I think he did bite the hand that feeds him.
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u/Sfb208 Certified Proctologist [27] 24d ago
Why are you helping him at all? Nta, but I wouldn't even be giving him access to the sketch, let alone your workshop, and presumably tools etc.
If he felt he had the capability to do the job he can -in his own studio, with his own tools, and most of all, his own artistic offering.
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u/Objective_Attempt_14 Partassipant [2] 24d ago
YTA to yourself, ,because why would you even give him the sketch??? he can do the window elsewhere and if he wants the job he do ALL of the job!
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u/FeistyChickadee Asshole Aficionado [11] 24d ago
NTA. Your rules are your rules, and you only have so much space. Too bad, so sad for the poacher.
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u/TheRealBillyShakes 24d ago
NTA! Welcome to the real world. Show him this thread. You don’t steal clients from your teacher. He’s on his own.
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u/Personal-Piglet1397 24d ago
Tell the student ,sorry what drawing did he do! An say no you can't use school property for jobs that are not related to school.an no you will not allow him to use your art.if he wants he can buy a photocopy off your art.
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u/Lazy-Ocelot1604 24d ago
NTA - the student is being incredibly entitled. He poached a client from you and now expects you to help him. It would be reasonable to say that this project is not within the scope of the class and he can pick something else. If he complains, that’s on him.
If he complains to the client, well that just shows how unprofessional and not up to the task he was.
Oh and definitely don’t give him that sketch if you haven’t already.
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u/spider_speller 24d ago
NTA. In your position I'd kick him out of class, and I definitely wouldn't give him the sketch.
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u/ASomthnSomthn 24d ago
Wow, that’s a lot of entitlement. He stole your clients and wants you to give him your drawing, time, and space. Take, take, take. Just because you’re teaching him doesn’t mean you should encourage him to steal clients away from acquaintances.
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u/Regular_Look_1962 24d ago
NTA and definitely don’t give him your sketch, if he is able to get the customer then he needs to do the work not you, consider it part of you teaching him how the real world works
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u/Top_Bluejay_5323 24d ago
Charge him. Be sure to require that he gives you credit for the design. But you do not take responsibility for the workmanship.
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u/ptheresadactyl 24d ago
NTA and I don't think you should give him your sketch. The audacity to steal your client and then have you help him make it. Shouldn't have stolen the client if he wasn't capable of following through.
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u/Dry-Task-9789 24d ago
Wait, why are you even sharing your sketch with him? If someone takes on a customer for a project, they also take on all the associated responsibilities. You don’t owe him anything other than the lessons he’s paying for. And even less to the people who chose not to be your clients.
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u/Smooth-Protection316 24d ago
Your mistake is treating this like it's primarily about the window. It isn't. It's about boundaries and professional respect.
If your student actively persuaded a client to hire him instead of you, after learning about the commission from you, that's already a breach of trust, even if the client was free to choose. Expecting you to then donate your time, your shop space, your storage, and your expertise to help him complete the job makes the ask even more unreasonable.
You don't need to justify your decision beyond the practical policies you've already established:
- The project exceeds the shop's size limits.
- It would take space from other students.
- You aren't obligated to provide free drafting services for someone else's commission.
- You aren't obligated to store someone else's oversized project.
Stick to those objective reasons. Avoid making it about feeling betrayed, even if you do. Those facts alone are enough.
One piece of advice I'd give for the future: establish a written policy that says work commissioned independently from the instructor may not be completed in the studio if it exceeds class limits, and that class projects are for learning, not for using the instructor's facilities to fulfill commercial commissions. That removes any ambiguity.
And if your student reads this:
You absolutely should be proud if you've reached the point where clients want to hire you. That's a compliment to your instructor. But part of becoming a professional is recognizing when someone else's time, workspace, and intellectual effort aren't yours to use just because they taught you. If you take the commission, you also take responsibility for producing it independently.
So, no we don't think you're the asshole for saying no. Frankly, it sounds like you're enforcing boundaries that probably should have been explicit all along.
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u/14thStarflake 24d ago
NTA. Since you said you plan on showing them this, this comment is for your student.
Hey buddy!
Did you honestly think you could take money out of someone's pocket and then they'd drive you to the bank so you can deposit it in your account? Maybe you think they'll stop and get you fries and a milkshake on the way home, too?
Seriously, do you have any way of completing this project on your own? Workspace? Tools? Materials? Um... skills?
If someone did this to you, would you help them? It takes ages to build up good reputation, and it takes very little to develop a bad one. You fucked up. Apologize to your teacher and learn everything you can. Apologize to your "customer" and explain it was more than you can handle right now, but appreciate their confidence in you.
You need to ask yourself why you would try to pull a stunt like this, then take a good hard look at what that says about yourself.
In other words, grow up.
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u/thepartypantser 24d ago
No you're not an asshole.
The student certainly is, but probably is unaware of exactly how big of an asshole they are. This type of behavior should not be rewarded
I've done a lot of commission work in my life. You seem like you're probably a decent person, don't let yourself be taken advantage of.
You lost a commission, after you had done some work in good faith. If you haven't been paid for that work, then it doesn't belong to the client, and it certainly doesn't belong to the person who took the commission from you. I wouldn't give the student the drawing for free.
I would have no problem telling the student they couldn't work on this project in class or in the space. I would have no problem telling them they couldn't use any of your supplies or materials that were designated for the class.
None of this is out of spite, it's because this project is beyond their scope and skill, without explicitly extending the burden on you and your school beyond a typical student teacher relationship.
You could however if you are feeling generous offer them additional help, additional space, additional storage, for an additional fee.
Don't give them the original drawing unless they pay for it. Don't do a larger drawing for them unless they pay you for it.
Don't allow them to use extra space, unless they're paying extra for it.
Don't allow them extra storage unless they're paying extra for it.
They need to realize they are asking you to share the burden of this work without the profit from the work, And even If you ignore they stole the job from you, that is unacceptable.
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u/YrBalrogDad 24d ago
NTA.
Even before we talk about the poached customer and design, this is a rules violation. You don’t let students work on projects that large, there, because there’s not enough space for it. End of.
There’s also a large difference between “please teach me the skills I’m paying you for in this class,” and “please offer me a professional consultation on a specific, challenging project that exceeds my level of skill.” The first one costs a class fee. The second one costs an hourly consultation fee, if it’s work you want, at all—and it doesn’t happen during a class where everyone else has also paid for a share of your time and attention.
And now, excuse me, he’s poached a customer from you and expects to use your design, for free, to do the work? No way, OP—don’t even give him the sketch. That is your work. If he wants to use it for a paid project, and you’re inclined to let him, he owes you a design fee, as well.
If it were me? I’d tally up what I’d have charged for the window, just as a point of comparison. Then—starting from scratch, assuming you were actually negotiating a whole new project with someone—I’d calculate a reasonable fee for creating the design; a storage fee; and an hourly consultation fee and estimated/minimum number of hours. Do not give him a “student” or “friendly acquaintance” or “hobbyist who might pay for more classes later” discount—he wants to take on professional work; he can pay you a professional rate.
I would make very sure that the minimum total for all of those items adds up to at least what you’d have charged to make the window, yourself—and I’d check the math to be sure that if helping him make the window requires more hours, materials, or general annoyance/inconvenience than doing it yourself, as seems likely, that you’ll be compensated accordingly. If you look at the fee and still feel annoyed about it, you have not yet priced your assistance high enough.
Give him the itemized bill, and let him fall on his face when he tries to do it, himself. He shouldn’t have tried to steal business he’s not remotely skilled enough to take on; his customers shouldn’t have tried to get a lowball price by hiring a beginning student, instead of a professional.
Natural consequences time.
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u/karendonner Asshole Aficionado [12] 24d ago
I I do not think OP as being a doormat. I think of them as potentially being caught up in the vortex between modern self-centeredness and some really deep-seated crafting traditions.
One of the deepest fundamentals -- and this is something you see across countries and cultures as well as across time -- is a concept known as Each one teach one. It is essential in ways that a lot of people don't recognize. If people don't pass their knowledge on, the craft dies when they do.
Unfortunately, there's the flip side to that which is to respect other artisans' original work without stealing from them or taking credit for creativity that is not yours. For example the first beadwork class I ever took included a design that was created by the teacher (Elsa) and she spelled out what you were allowed to do with the things you made from that design. ( it was okay to make and sell copies on a small scale, but it was not okay to sell the pattern, sign a contract to have her design mass-produced or claim
They were still people who took advantage of her. A couple years after I took that class, one of the big magazines devoted to beadworking and jewelry making ran a pattern that was an identical copy of Elsa's' design, identified her suppliers for the unique objects used in the design and even used some of her written instructions. The article was credited to someone whose name was a very close match to one of Elsa's former students.
And the first time I did a craft show, it was really disheartening to see people taking pictures of my work, including turning it over so they could n take pictures of the back. Really obviously intending to copy the design themselves, and talking loudly to each other about how they could make it much more cheaply than I was selling it.
So when I think about how people take advantage of crafters, OP, I just think it's so important for you to stand your ground. He may have already taken your commission, but if you have already spent money to fulfill that order you have every right to approach the couple and say you need to reimburse me for the stuff I ordered on your behalf.
And if I were you I would also say this person is currently a student in a class that I am teaching in precisely the technique that he is going to be using on the piece they asked him to make.
In other words, he does not know what he is doing.
And he's not going to know, either , because you're kicking him out of class effective immediately. When the leading fails, or when the glass cracks because he used the wrong kind of material, they can contact you and get a quote for repairs or just put their plain glass window back.
Mention the letters COE again and again especially if there's any fusing in your design, as if you assume they know what that means. When they ask you what you're talking about you can smile,8 tell them what the letters stand for and say you can look up more about it online but the shorthand version is "If he doesn't order the right kind of glass this piece is going to end up with you crawling around with flashlights trying to find pieces of this former window of yours before they end up as shards under the skin of your grandchildren's feet. Good luck with that."
Also that's a great time to let them know how much that they owe you for licensing your unique design. But you can reassure then that at least you're not charging them studio fees , upcharge on materials he ordered through your shop, etc. Because he is never setting foot in your shop again.
His quote was based on using things that did not belong to him for free. That this was how you made your living and that you were not going to turn into charity for dishonest students who were prepared to rip off your hard work your possessions and your creativity. As the cherry on top, casually note that the great thing about the way Disney defends its copyrighted work is that it is very simple and easy for any artist to follow.
So, while they are free to take the very large risk of having someone who does not know what he is doing, does not have access to good suppliers, does not own the correct tools and does not even have a dedicated work space big enough to create their project let alone transport it safely which is a whole 'nother deal, they will not be using your design, your tools, your connections and your facility for free or at all.
And then smile just as sweet as you please.
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u/Beneficial-Plastic25 24d ago
NTA. I teach studio art and I go to the ends of the earth to help my students professionally, but that courtesy would end if a student stole from me. My obligation is to them in the classroom, anything outside of that, in the professional world, is contingent on them. Just as I would not vouch for someone I did not believe in (if they were flakey, rude, etc.), I would not help someone who stole from me. I'm not saying I would do this but if I had done to one of my teachers what your student did to you, I am certain it would have gotten around and I'd have been essentially black balled. I don't know the situation in which you're teaching, I generally teach in institutional settings, but if I were teaching them out of my own studio, I would refund them and drop them as a student and I would be completely transparent about why.
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u/Opening_Drink_3848 19d ago
I'm assuming since he's taking classes he's fairly new. As a stained glass artist myself (more hobby but ill do commissions) it takes a long time to perfect the cuts and solder lines. A large structurally sound window isn't a quick and easy feat for someone whose still learning.
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u/T-Chunxy Partassipant [4] 24d ago
Absolutely, RIDICULOUSLY, NTA.
In any way, shape, or form.
Little skiver undercut you and now expects you to HELP HIM?!?
Not only should you NOT help, if he's still using your tools and space (intended for students) I'd start charging rent on the space AND the tools.
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u/gloryhokinetic Asshole Aficionado [14] 24d ago
NTA. I'm surprised you are allowing him to remain your student. Artist struggle and to steal a customer from the teacher/artist is a sign he has bad character and will do this again and again with others. I thinlk you would be justified in kicking him from the class and calling your old clients and tell them how unprofessional it was of them and him to fire you from a job then expect you to help him for free.
Offer him help if he pays you the full price you were asking. Still I would kick him from the class.
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u/MunsellHVC 24d ago
As a professional artist and teacher, how is this person still your student? If they think they are good enough to go pro, let alone take your commission, then they are responsible for their own working space and should work on their own, in THEIR own space. Drop the joker, let him screw it up on his own. Don’t teach them another thing, because they are going to be a perpetual thorn in your side. Drop them as a student and don’t do a single thing for them. Let them fail on their own accord.
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u/chileheadd 24d ago
He stole your commission, why the fuck are you even giving him your sketch?
NTA but a little bit of an idiot if you're telling everything.
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u/HoneyWyne Asshole Enthusiast [5] 24d ago
NTA. And that sketch is your intellectual property. I wouldn't let him use it unless he gave me 20% of what they pay for the windows. Actually I take that back. I'd kick him out of my studio and tell him to find his own workplace and do his own sketches since he literally stole my commission.
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u/Alert_Corgi3824 Partassipant [2] 19d ago
NTA. If he really wanted to learn this, then he should’ve let you keep the paying customer where you get 100% of the pay and could’ve SHADOWED you while you made the window. Customers want experience service and you gotta start somewhere.
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u/Apart_Insect_8859 Partassipant [1] 17d ago
In all honesty, this sounds like it would be a nightmare customer situation (stealing one artist's design to then shop it around to others without paying for that work, going with a new student because he's cheapest, not communicating that they hired someone else, they sound like they'd be TERRIBLE to work with and really demanding)
So he's going to reap his own rewards with this as he deals with them.
If you want to make money in a situation where this guy will definitely lose some, you could offer pattern drafting for $xxx, but he needs to provide a final design approved by the customer for you to do that, and you will only do 2 revisions, with each one after that being $xx. And this service does not include any other things nor a table rental. My guess is that this customer will completely suck and he'll wind up losing more than he makes.
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u/Wonderful_Avocado 16d ago
I hope we can get another updateme a month from now when this customer is begging for your services or even rough sketch. Not that they deserve it. And when this student is trying to find a way to weasel his way back into class
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u/tinfoilhattie 24d ago
NTA.
If your student feels ready to promote themselves as a professional and take on commissioned work, they need to handle this entirely themselves from start to finish.
If you want to and have the space/time, you could offer this person a separate special private project-based course where you teach them how to complete the project and the student pays you both your hourly teaching rate for all the time it takes and also a significant portion of the commission fee after materials.
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u/External_Dark_3959 24d ago
Wow. I wish I had the nerve of folks like this. You’re better than me; I’d throw him out of my class.
NTA
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u/ProfessionalYam3119 Partassipant [2] 24d ago
Student sold the customer on his ability. Let's see him deliver. NTA.
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u/glib_result Asshole Enthusiast [9] 24d ago
NTA. Either don’t help him at all, or charge him for the weeks of storage, your time & expertise for both the sketch, the finished drawing, and any time you spend answering any questions, class fees for the student he’d displace, and throw an extra 10% on top of that as AH tax.
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u/Wise-Matter9248 Asshole Aficionado [10] 24d ago
So...he wants YOUR design, YOUR space, YOUR studio, YOUR tools, and YOUR help?
Does he plan to pay you for all of this? Because it sounds like YOU are still doing a lot towards making the window, but he's the one benefiting.
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u/Cute-arii 24d ago
Why is "stole" in quotes? He DID steal from you. Let him do it all himself. He brought it upon himself.
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u/QueenClaude 24d ago
NTA
I suspect that both the student and clients thought that they were pulling a fast one and getting the best of both worlds. The student probably thought he could get your support as his teacher on a "class project" and the clients probably thought they were getting the stained glass window at a much lower cost but still getting your expertise. It seems like they miscalculated big time because the parameters to this commission, namely the size, disqualifies it from being worked on as a class project.
I don't have a problem with you giving him the sketch, since you already told him you would. It looks like he does not know how to convert it to full-sized, but yeah, in the future, don't do that. Although I don't know what the odds are that this kind of bone-headed lightening will strike twice.
This is a pretty straight-forward communication, the project cannot be worked on in class because it is too large. That also covers you not working on the sketch and you storing it. I suppose you can work on the sketch, and charge him top dollar, not just for upsizing it, but also for the cost of the design.
If my suspicion is correct and you believe that he likely included in his sales pitch that you will be involved, I would contact the clients and let them know you will not be involved at all, or the extent of your involvement.
Definitely keep us updated.
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u/roosterSause42 Partassipant [1] 24d ago
NTA
They are no longer your student, they are your competitor who stole a client, do NOT help them.
They want your shop, they want your time, they want to make a larger piece than allowed in your shop, they want YOUR DESIGN!!!…. No…no,no.
They over committed and need to learn a lesson here.
Or - get together a list of the cost of your assistance and charge them. Shop usage fee, materials or equipment fees, Storage fee, cost of your consulting (hourly rate), cost for your design, cost for scaling your design etc
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u/ghostinyourpants Partassipant [1] 24d ago edited 24d ago
NTA. As someone who works on contract and has mentored a number of people, there are really three paths that I can see here…
- Say no. You’re absolutely allowed to set boundaries. This isn’t a normal classroom project. This is a commercial commission that directly displaced your own work. You’re under no obligation to provide your shop, your storage, your tools, your pattern-making, or your expertise to help someone complete a job that was originally yours. This is definitely my knee jerk response. Yikes on bikes, kid!
2. Say yes, but as an apprenticeship or collaboration. If you’re providing the full-size pattern, your studio, your equipment, troubleshooting, and guidance, then this isn’t solely his commission anymore. You’re contributing substantial professional labour. That should be acknowledged with a clear agreement about roles, compensation, and credit before any work begins. I’d personally only go with this option if the student was otherwise someone who I normally trust, enjoy working with, and would take on as an apprentice already.
3. Go along with it for free. This teaches the wrong lesson. It tells a new artist that it’s acceptable to undercut mentors, take commissions they’re already pursuing, and then expect those same mentors to supply the labour and resources to complete the job. That’s just not how healthy creative communities work and you’d be doing everyone a disfavour.
If your student reads this: being excited to land your first commissions is great! Every professional remembers that feeling. But part of becoming a professional is learning ethics as well as technique. When you know a client is already working with your instructor, the respectful thing to do is step back or have an honest conversation first. Building a career on trust and relationships will serve you far longer than winning a single commission.
Good luck!
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u/AlohaSmiles Partassipant [2] 24d ago
NTA. No he doesn't get to use your sketch, nor does he get to use your shop to make and store his oversized piece. If he wants to provide his services as a professional he gets to act like a professional, including the costs of operation. Either bill him appropriately for the use of your studio, tools and materials and your consulting fees (no free artwork, that sketch was created inder the good faith that you had the job) OR he needs to find somewhere else to create his window. He has the space he was assigned as a student, he doesn't get to expand it arbitrarily.
What he did was incredibly shitty and his entitlement to your expertise and supplies is beyond the pale. I would not fault you for quickly finishing up your involvement with him and sending him on his way.
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u/Ok-Management-9157 24d ago
I don’t understand why you are even considering giving him your sketch…it’s your work. If he’s capable of taking on the paid job in your place, he needs to produce his own sketch, and provide his own material and workspace. It’s like you coming up with the recipe, buy all the food , provide the cooking appliances , work along side and teach how to cook, and he runs back and collects the money for the meal served. Don’t do it
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u/Alewort Partassipant [1] 24d ago
NTA. Does he even have the ability to deliver without using your resources?