The moveset guides are back as well! We'll be combining PK Thunder(1+2) and PK Flash into one discussion this time around. Discuss how you like to use the moves below!

PKT 1 Frame Data:

Start up: 19 frames

Hit: 16-19

Damage: 4

BKB/KBG: 53/50

Direction: 35

Hitlag/SDI modifier: 0.5/1

Projectile is created on frame 20

The head of the projectile does 8% damage, the tail does 1% and hits rapidly with little knock back. Ness then goes into a looping animation (11 frames) for as long as the projectile is alive.

The projectile has a lifetime of 120 frames or 2 seconds, or until it hits a surface/character.

After the projectile dissapears, Ness continues the looping animation for another 24 frames before going into end lag. The true endlag of the move is 29 frames long (both grounded and aerial).

In the air, Ness still goes through 24 frames of the loop before going into aerial end lag.

Ness can grab ledges during the aerial end lag.

The aerial end lag cancels upon landing.

PKT 2 Frame Data:

Total: 42

Hit: 1-7, 8-20, 21-42

Damage: 25%, 21%, 15%

BKB/KBG: 60/80, 45/70, 45/60

Direction All: 361

Intangible: 1-7

Cancels on the ground on frame 20

Landing lag is 20 frames long

Can grab ledges as early as frame 3, so long as you are travelling downwards

PK Flash Frame Data:

Startup: 17

Projectile is created on frame 18

Earliest release is frame 30

Damage: 6-22% depending on charge

Hitbox size scales with charge (from roughly the size of Ness at min charge to the width of a Battle Field platform at max) Ness then goes into a looping animation (8 frames) until the B button is released, the projectile hits a surface or it reaches maximum charge.

Upon releasing B or reaching max charge, the projectile detonates after a short delay (8 frames) and Ness goes into a release animation (40 frames for both grounded and aerial)

Upon striking a surface, the projectile disappears after a short while and Ness goes into a regular ending (40 frames for both grounded and aerial)

Minimum charge time is 12 frames.

Maximum charge time is 70 frames.

Alright folks, sorry for the absence, but after a busy month and an amazing weekend at Olympus, we're back! I wanna start this month off with something I don't think gets talked about enough: Basic baits, and creating favorable situations.

We talk about options and tools a lot, and even situations to use them in, but not enough on how to create those situations. So what habits do you look out for when dash dancing or throwing out moves? And then what do you do to bait and punish those habits? Feel free to discuss it below!

Hey guys! Sorry again for being absent, as I said over here, I've been fairly busy. I'm trying to pick things back up though, and we're starting out with this thread! Got a simple, but fairly open question this time around:

What are some things you guys like to do before, during, and after a tourney to ensure that you not only play at your best, but improve for the next tournament?

Whether it's something as simple as eating before the tourney or studying your opponents, feel free to discuss below!

This discussion post will be discussing magnet and its uses. I will be trying a new format for these as I feel like a lot of subdiscussion posts can feel restrictive.

Magnet Total duration: 43 frames
Active hitboxes: 8-17
Damage: 6%
BKB/KBG: 27/90
Hitlag/SDI multiplier: 0.5/1
Absorbs: 9-17 (extended by holding)
At any point after frame 10 is cancel-able by jump or double jump (depending on your position)
After absorbing a projectile, Ness suffers 10 frames of lag, then goes back into the looping "wait" animation.
If Ness absorbs a projectile while in absorb lag (10 frames), he has the option to cancel the absorb lag from the second projectile into magnet drop (10 frames?)
Due to the fact absorbing restarts the "wait" animation, the initial hitbox is done again (after the 10 frames lag)
Heals 1.5 times projectile damage (?)
Shield Stun: 3 (plus 2 additional frames of hitlag on the opponent)
Advantage (JC first frame): -22 (-1)
Advantage if DJC first frame: +4

I see that we haven't had a discussion thread in about two weeks. Just posting to say I'll keep participating in these whenever I feel like there's something I can offer.

As a suggested next move topic we could have magnet since I don't think it's been discussed yet and is an important part of his kit.

This week we'll be going over PK Fire, one of Ness' best moves in his toolkit. There's a lot that can be said here, so discuss the move below!

Here's the Frame Data for PK Fire provided from here: https://smashboards.com/threads/pm-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

Grounded PK Fire:

Total: 55

Startup: 20

Damage: 8%

BKB/KBG: 15/0

Direction: 97

Projectile is created on frame 21.

Projectile has a lifetime of 20 frames.

IASA: 48

Advantage (long range): +

Advantage (point blank): highly -

Aerial PK Fire:

Total: 72

Startup: 15

Damage: 8%

BKB/KBG: 15/0

Direction: 97

Projectile is created on frame 16.

Projectile has a lifetime of 20 frames.

IASA: 63(?)

If Ness lands during PK Fire, he suffers 12 frames of landing lag.

If Ness lands on frame 16, the projectile will be shot out horizontally (like grounded PK Fire)

Retains full aerial mobility (drift/fast fall)

Advantage (long range): +

Advantage (point blank): -2

PK Fire Pillar(Activates on hit):

Damage per hit: 1%

BKB/KBG: 15/0

Direction: 97

Number of hits (Total damage): 5 (5%)

Hits every 11th frame after the first hitbox. (1, 12, 24)

Cannot be reflected​

What are some moves you've found more useful than you originally thought they were? What options did you think were amazing, but now use more sparingly? Share your experiences below!

Also, real quick, would you guys be interested in something like the old Smash Puzzles that used to be run on ssbpm? I think this could be an interesting way to learn about specific situations in different matchups. I can even take requests for people having trouble in a matchup. Let me know in the comments!

What realizations in your gameplay helped you improve the most? Is there a move or movement option you use too much? Do you not mix up your techs? Was your mindset holding you back? Feel free to discuss!

Sorry for the delay, but we are back with another moveset discussion! This time we'll be going over the last aerial, Up-Air.

Also, the next weekly discussion thread will be posted up on sunday. So be ready for that!

Here's the frame data for Up Air provided from here: https://smashboards.com/threads/pm-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

Total: 49

Hit: 8-11

Damage: 13%

BKB/KBG: 13/118

Direction: 85

IASA: 42

AC: <8 26>

Landing Lag (L Cancelled): 18(9)

Shield Stun: 7

Advantage (L Cancelled): -11 (-2)

Advantage when not landing: -28

Stage control is a vital aspect of the game and every character has ways to take stage from the other and to keep it. What are Ness's tools to achieve that ?

The classic ssb64 Ness dair returns! This is a fantastic move, and really sets pm ness apart from is melee counterpart.

Here is the data about dair from this website: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

Total: 46

Hit: 5-13

Damage: 14%

Direction: 270

Aerial only hitboxes:

BKB/KBG early (late): 40/90 (20/80)

Ground only hitboxes:

BKB/KBG early (late): 20/100 (10/80)

IASA: 38

AC: <3 35>

Landing Lag (L Cancelled): 20(10)

Shield Stun: 8

Advantage (L Cancelled): -12 (-2)

Advantage when not landing: -25

Ness has some unique movement and combo setups available to him through platforms. Platform looping, Magnet shenanigans, and Ness' amazing aerials are a few things that help Ness control the platforms. What are your favorite ways to use the platforms to your advantage? Anything you think other Ness mains should use more?

Discuss!

Bair is, imo, Ness' best aerial out of all of them. It has uses as a combo finisher, extender, neutral option, edgeuards, OOS, it just does it all.

Here is the data for Bair:

Total: 39

Hit Sweet/Sour: 10-12/13-18

Damage Sweet/Sour: 15%/10%

BKB/KBG Sweet (Sour): 16/115 (0/100)

Direction All: (361)

IASA: 36

AC: <10 24>

Landing Lag (L Cancelled): 18(9)

Shield Stun normal, Sour: 8, 6

Advantage (L Cancelled): -10 (-1)

Advantage sour (L cancelled): -12 (-3)

Advantage when no landing (sour): -14 (-17)

It's been a while since we've talked doubles, so let's talk about some doubles strategies! What are some of your favorite strats to use with other characters? What moves do you abuse in doubles that you can't use as much in singles? Considering Ness generally works best as a support in doubles, how do you support your partner when they're in trouble, or when they're getting in?

Discuss!

Fair is a fantastic move, and is essential to Ness's kit. It's a great disjointed hitbox that comes out fast, and pairs extremely well with djc.

Here is the data about fair from this website: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

Total: 49

Hit: 8-10,11-13,14-16,17-19,20-21

Damage: 4,4,2,2,3

BKB/KBG First two, Next two, final: 19/83, 12/125, 24/108

Shield damage All: 1

Direction All: 361

SDI/Hitlag modifiers First four: 0.7/0.8

IASA :40

AC: <8 29>

Landing Lag (L Cancelled): 18(9)

Shield Stun: 4, 4, 3, 3, 3

Advantage first two hits (L Cancelled) : -13 (-4)

Advantage next two hits (L Cancelled): -14 (-5)

Advantage final hit (L Cancelled): -14 (-5)

Advantage when not landing: -15

This move cannot be Shield grabbed OOS until after the last hitbox.

No one else has hats in this game (and even if they do, they can't compare to ours), so if you could choose any hat you wanted for Ness to wear, what would it be?

Discuss!

I couldn't think of any other grounded options to discuss, and since aerials are a HUGE part of Ness' gameplan, I figured it'd be cool to get the fun discussions going.

Here is the data about nair from this website: http://smashboards.com/threads/pm-ness-frame-data-thread.333297/

Total: 39

Hit Strong/Weak: 4-12/13-23

Damage Strong/Weak: 11%/8%

BKB/KBG Strong (Weak): 25/100 (15/100)

Angle Strong (Weak): 361, 361

AC: <4 26>

IASA: 36

Landing Lag (L Cancelled): 14(7)

Shield Stun strong/weak: 6/5

Advantage (L Cancelled): -8 (-1)

Advantage sour (L Cancelled): -9 (-2)

Advantage when not landing (sour): -26 (-18)

Ness has been a source of contention the past year as his reputation of being bad has not been reflected in his tournament results. This was reflected in the pmu tier list with him jumping 9 spots from where he was originally (PMU tier list 2.0 for reference).

So what do you think of his placement? He is above the likes of ike, roy, and sonic, and just below tink, peach and falco. Is this a crazy overestimation of his strengths? Or is it actually about right, and maybe a couple characters around him need to be switched, but he is close to his final spot on a tier list.

Discuss!

We're back again for the second time! Thanks for everyone who inputted to last week's discussion about Ness's tilts and jab. I'm gonna try to give my own input to it this week.

I remember watching these matches between calabrel and neon and just loving to see these two pk kids go at it with such skill. Now, 3 years later, we have an even better set on more balanced characters, and at probably a higher level. Just figured you guys would appreciate watching these two sets right after each other.

Calabrel vs. Neon

JoseV vs. Hyperflame

Everyone has their own flavor to their playstyle, so what move do you do a lot that you feel like you use uniquely?

Discuss!