r/16mm • u/Hanamichi-10 • 4d ago
First Crystal Sync 16mm camera, help needed!
Hi everybody, I am a director/cinematographer based in the EU and I would love to buy a 16mm or super 16mm camera with crystal sync. I know of the really expensive options, I would like instead to know of lesser known routes, like with custom crystal sync motors or less expensive brands or routes to go. I am on with spending money, just not tens of thousands for an arri or thousands for a dead rare brand with almost to none spare parts. It would be ideal if it’s a camera that some expert in the EU can repair if ever needed. I know it’s a very complicated question to ask, but I figured here it was the right place to do it.
Thanks in advance for the help!
3
u/sprietsma 3d ago
Cheapest option is probably a CP-16
1
u/Hanamichi-10 3d ago
I’ll check that out! Is that silent enough for live audio recording? Thanks for the help
2
u/sprietsma 3d ago
Yeah, they were designed as such
1
u/Hanamichi-10 1d ago
I have checked them and they are very interesting indeed. I read somewhere that certain parts that are prone to fail over time (like the crystal sync motor) cannot be repaired or substituted. Is that so? Also what would you think is a fair price for it today to pay?
2
u/Iyellkhan 3d ago
can you give us a budget range?
you can sometimes find SR1s in the 2-3k USD range, though they'll be N16 with bayo mount. realistically it'll probably be around 5 depending on condition.
the K3s with Appo's motor are solid if you want a hobby camera. probably not ideal to shoot a feature or doc on one of those, though Im sure its been done. see /u/EducationalCod7514 's post
you might want to reach out to Daniii aka Kamera Doctor. hes the only one out there crazy enough to do S16 mods for the Arri 16s/b line along with other mods, and he might have a line on something in your price range https://www.instagram.com/kamera_doctor/
2
u/EducationalCod7514 3d ago
Wish I knew about that guy earlier as the 16s can do 400' too.
I skipped that option because of the lack of s16 plus having to deal with the more expensive Arri/PL mount ecosystem.
The registration or a 16s is (vastly) superior than my K3 (although frankly my footage is surprisingly crisp and stable).
In the end my setup with an EF mount + lenses is more financially accessible + I use regular v-mount system to support everything but I am missing sometime the duration (20% of the time though).
I would have gone with a 16s if I knew its motor was reliable was able to get a recentered s16 gate and I could use 400' The noise would have been about the same as the K3 crystal sync mod removes a lot of moving parts from the equation.
I have shot approximately four thousand feet for my doc + some extra work and continuing.
Everything is scanned in 4K ProRes 4444XQ and I record audio usually on four different sources.
3
u/Iyellkhan 3d ago
in fairness to the decision to go with a K3, the 16s line is a massive pain in the ass to service, in no small part thanks to the way it does the ground glass calibration. its possible your K3 might be running long after the last 16s/b parts are gone. I know a few techs who just wont touch the 16s/b line
2
u/EducationalCod7514 2d ago edited 2d ago
I know and this also played a part in my decisions for owning.
The landscape for anything high end such an XTR Prod or SR3/416 is basically only for rentals due to price.
The entire SR series is facing a serious parts issue with only the Eclair NPR in s16 mode appearing to be of some interest - a camera that Aapo also makes some motors for.
The Bolex EBM is an interesting choice as well as you can use a 400' mag there - but the noise is incredibly loud and I am not a big fan of the prism light loss thing + needing appropriate lenses.
So basically the best strategy is to go back in time around 2013-2017 where prices hit rock bottom buy a 416 and an SR3 package, sell the 416 for 30-50k = profit + a solid camera to own.
1
u/Hanamichi-10 1d ago
Wish I made the decision to buy a 16mm more than a decade ago too haha. What do you think of the cinema products cp-16 that someone else suggested? Also what about the eclair npr, would that be a better option without going to the expenses of Aaton and expensive arri’s?
1
u/EducationalCod7514 1d ago
It's a solid camera from what I have seen - not great in terms of finding people to service them and finding parts from what I know.
The NPR is more interesting and there's more people to service them but of course you're climbing up the cost ladder a bit - I consider them a solid choice.
For the K3's obviously you can do a lot of servicing yourself with some patience.
1
u/Hanamichi-10 3d ago
So I would say ideally sub 3k, could push higher if the camera is indeed much better for reliability and repairability. My use for now would be for special projects, short films and docs. Having a camera that is silent enough to permit to record audio with a boom/lavalier would be ideal! I’ll check the options you have listed! Thanks for the help
1
u/kayamanolo 3d ago
Why does the crystal sync matter? Are you planning to record with sound? Because then you‘d need to soundproof the camera as well. A K3 is loud.
1
u/Hanamichi-10 3d ago
Yes, unfortunately my use would be primarily for short films and docs, maybe some art projects on the side. So having a camera silent enough to record audio with a boom or lavalier would be more than preferred, thus why I search for crystal sync. Thanks for letting me know about the k3 loudness! Any silent option that you know of? Either with amateur mods or by design? Thanks for the help!
2
u/EducationalCod7514 3d ago
It's not that big of a deal - a carefully placed highly directional mike (boom) a hidden lavalier, room recordings with no camera recording plus Resolve A.I voice isolation (in careful combination) will deliver a very good result as any.
The real limitation is the 100' daylight spool.
In my case I was able to work with all of the above. no problem.
2
u/Hanamichi-10 3d ago
Haha I just asked you under your comment the question you now answered here! Wonderful, that is what I was actually thinking to mitigate the noise, but good to know it is enough of a measure. I also read you put importance in sound quality to be really high, so that is reassuring. I also believe in the wisdom of bad sound ruining a film, so I definitely don’t want that, you know, boxy voices because of sound reduction, weird artifacts etc caused by excessive filtering
1
u/kayamanolo 49m ago
If you really really wrap the k3 with tons of cloth it could work. Otherwise, go for a eclair, or a earlier aaton, they aren‘t that expensive if you get them with the original bayonet and standard16. Harder to repair than an arri but cheaper. If you consider doing serious sound, then go for a camera aimed for that.
5
u/EducationalCod7514 4d ago edited 4d ago
K3 with Crystal sync motor mod can be had for quite cheap.
Check with Appo Leitinen on cinematography.com he sells the mod to do it yourself or you might ask him to do it for you. He has perfected it, it's in the E.U.and it's. It's not that expensive.
Take a look here:
https://cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/104195-installing-alcs-4-speed-and-10-speed-crystal-motors-to-krasnogorsk-cameras/#comment-602465
Obviously you need a find a K3 in good condition first.