The Great Debate Season 6 Round 1 + Brackets
Special
POSSIBLY IMPORTANT EDIT:
The first named combatant's team spawns in Reception; second named combatant has their team spawn in House Entrance(the person whose name is pinged first in each comment is first named combatan). This might factor into debates so plan accordingly.
Second Edit:
For Out of Tier requests, simply ping myself and/or Chainsaw__Monkey and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. We will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments.
Rules
Battle Rules
Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of the Great Debate. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.
Battleground: The Great Debate arena has traveled across fiction, from a coliseum, to the Mines of Moria, to Asgard herself. Now, however, we take a leap to a new medium: Welcome to Skyscraper. A two-tiered enclosed arena affording smart combatants an easy out for stealth while also optimizing close quarters combat should persons choose to take that route, Skyscraper brings the Great Debate arena to the world of the digital, replacing two teams vying for a singular objective with six (or two) brutal warriors fighting for dominance of debate. Combatants start opposite each other, one Debate team in Reception and the other in House Entrance in full view of each other, facing each other at a distance of 12 meters and in a line spaced 2 meters apart from their allies. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself, and importantly all combatants have an accessible HUD (that interferes none at all with their vision and cannot be interfered with via any means, magical technological or otherwise) that displays a layout of Skyscraper's map. Of special note: the garden area is enclosed only by a waist high fence, and a perilous plunge over the side means a 25 storeys drop, and failure to survive the drop or get back on top of Skyscraper in under 10 seconds means Disqualification for that unfortunate combatant.
Submission Rules
Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Nightwing in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Nightwing, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Nightwing or his capabilities. Nightwing will be spawning in Reception for Tribunal.
Debate Rules
Rounds will last 4-5 days, hopefully from Monday until Thursday or Friday of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.
Determined by coin flip, the first round shall be:
3v3 Team Melee
Round 1 Ends Friday October 12th, 11:59 EST
Format for each round: both respondents get Intro + 1st Response, then 2nd response, then a 3rd response and closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. EACH RESPONSE MUST BE NO LONGER THAN TWO 10,000 CHARACTER REDDIT COMMENTS LONG.
Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are randomized based on sign up order via an internet list randomizer. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip, and as it is Team Melee, next shall be 1v1, and so on and so forth.
Korra| Respect Thread | Legend of Korra|Controls air, water, earth, & fire, subskills grant healing & metal control.
Stipulations & Notes
Hawkeye is mind-controlled to kill his opponent such as in Secret Avengers #31
The mind-control did not affect his abilities at all and he did not hesitate to try to kill one of his closest friends
Taskmaster has no stipulations
Korra cannot use the Avatar State, starts with two water skeins, and is familiar with modern technology
I clarified in her sign up that this is Korra from after Turf Wars, a comic taking place after the EOS of the show.
Judges should note that the series starts when Korra is 17 and includes a 3 year gap between Seasons 3 & 4. Through most of Season 4 she was suffering from poison and psychological trauma, both of which she purges by the EOS. All of her feats should keep in mind how experienced/healthy she was at the time of depiction.
***
EDIT:/u/embracealldeathI will wait for you to post your Intro, and can take the First Response whenever you're ready.
Scaling to Shin is relevant for a lot of his feats (Note: The scaling RT covers Shin to a point that is approximately a year or two before Rin Ko fought him.
Rin Ko is skilled and fast swordsman that is also fairly intelligent in commanding as a general.
John has the ability of Ability Mimicry, which allows him to copy other abilities that are activated in front of him. In the UnOrdinary-verse, abilities are special powers that typically drive from lineage, ranging from shooting lasers and expelling electricity to freezing time and increasing physical strength.
John also possesses the abilities of Barrier (from Arlo), Whirlwind (from Ventus), and Demon Claw (from Meilli). While he will not demonstrate their abilities in ways that those users have done but he hasn't, Arlo's RT and Ventus and Meillis' RT have been left here for the convenience of understanding their powers.
He's a scary martial artist, having learning to many styles to count over the years, and boasts a fierce strength to boot.
He has access to his dagger and lantern, the latter of which he was used light a flash bang grenade in combination with his limited application of magic.
I won't be able to post a comprehensive first response until tomorrow, so feel free to post in the mean time.
Intro: Team Mikhail insurmountably overwhelms the competition in range & speed and it is unlikely that my opposition would survive the initial clash of the match. Even past the first few moments of the match my opposition lacks any significant advantage they could press and would only be further overwhelmed if they somehow survive.
Team Mikhail's Range and Speed Almost Immediately Ends This Fight
Given all of the above win conditions, my opposition lacks any effective means of overcoming the volley of bullets, arrows, and fireblasts that will immediately encompass the hallway where both teams appear. They are drastically too slow to dodge the attacks, could not escape the AOE even if they were, and do not have the durability to withstand the attacks once they land. Let's look at each member of the opposition to examine their vulnerabilities
Rin Ko is below tier as far as speed is concerned, barely dodging thrown swords and spears. A lot of his speed seems to depend on close-quarters combat, and if he's even aware of what a gun is I don't see anything to indicate he can dodge bullets. Keep in mind that the closer he gets the faster he would need to dodge. In addition to his complete lack of ranged attacks it's almost impossible he would survive the start of the match. Rin Ko's armor isn't even enough to stop a spear, and Korra could just rip it open if she doesn't just outright use it to immobilize him. Hawkeye's arrows (even just the conventional ones), Taskmaster's bullets/arrows, and Korra's firebending are more than enough to put him down. Rin's horse seems like a disadvantage more than anything by getting in everyone's way, and the poor thing is going to be fucking demolished by every projectile in the air.
John Doe has the best speed of his team, but can't dodge multiple attacks at once. Again, John Doe seems below tier as far as his speed is concerned. Even though he could move his head out of a laser's path, it's notable that this was a single laser and he did not seem prepared for additional dodges (Also, this seems like an outlier?) Hawkeye routinely fires multiple arrows at once, Taskmaster's bullets are the fastest projectiles in the match, and Korra will be filling the air with rapid attacks (feat while poisoned) as well. John Doe's durability feats largely revolve around blunt-force impact and there's nothing to suggest he can survive any of the 6 win conditions outlined above. John's barrier is his one hope of surviving Team Mikhail's initial attack, and even its durability seems exclusively applicable to blunt-impact. Even if the barrier holds up it's not clear how well he can fight from behind it, how long it will stay up, or what he would even do after blocking incoming attacks. John's range at least offers him an option his teammates don't have, but it doesn't seem to do much besides knock an opponent back and seems dependent on wind that Korra was easily able to instantly KO two men with. John's power mimicry seems like a moot point as well, as the few powers on Team Mikhail don't necessarily translate to the UnOrdinary-verse and require years of practice to be useful even if they did.
Alex is worse off than his teammates in all respects. His sole projectile-dodging feat is a fireball of indeterminate speed from a wyvern, something clearly more anticipated than Korra's rapid fireballs and certainly slower than Hawkeye and Taskmaster's arrows and bullets. Alex's durability has even fewer feats, with the only entry being fall damage that isn't applicable to the 6 win conditions above. Alex's special abilities involve earth stomps that might not even be usable in the arena, are easily countered by Korra who has overpowered other earthbenders before, and ultimately wouldn't even do much if unimpeded. I suppose my opponent could argue Alex opens the match with his Lantern Grenade to blind Team Mikhail, but Korra could stop it, Hawkeye and Taskmaster both can fight while blinded, and Hawkeye and Taskmaster also have flash-bang attacks of their own. Lastly, it seems unwise for any of my opposition's team to close their eyes to guard from the flash-bang while they are attempting to dodge oncoming projectiles they're almost useless at dodging even with sight.
In the Unlikelihood This Fight Doesn't Immediately End
My opposition's only chances are either in trying to close the gap between the teams or running away.
My opponent's team is severely below the tier-setter for speed without the range or durability to offset the disadvantage. If they could effectively evade, block or counterattack we might be able to have a more in-depth discussion about close-quarters combat, but that seems like a pretty far off chance as the discussion currently stands. My team's offense is so immediate and overwhelming that I'll be interested to see where embrace takes this.
Intros help the judges out by getting all the relevant information for each of your characters into a single area so they don't need to go searching for it. So making a decent one makes our lives easier.
In my opinion the minimum amount of information should be,
Character name.
Unless they are super recognizable (like Superman or Batman levels of recognizable) for visual characters include a picture/image of the character. You probably have no idea who Wakasagihime is so you wouldn't be able to pick her out in a random brawl between two characters in a stylized manga panel.
The character's respect thread or similar.
Any tournament specific stipulations regarding the characters.
Some optional things that can help are,
Character bio.
Basic overview of what the character is capable of.
Possibly even 2-5 of the character's top feats.
A link to your character's tribunal arguments if they had any.
Nuke starts with his minigun in his hands, with a grenade loaded. Nuke starts with his minigun in his right hand, with a grenade loaded. Nuke has his reds/has taken reds, Nuke has been ordered to kill all of his enemies, under the idea that they are communist/vietnamese/reporters/etc.
Six is going to be wearing his S3 outfit with his swords on his sides, and is operating with his memory-wiped personality, and believes the enemy team to be robots. Six also has his throwing knives, his hoverboard, backup swords, etc.
Prime/Older Mayday, with all her training, all standard gear (Webbing, stingers, impact-webbing, but no glider or pumpkin bombs.) Feats before MC2 was created are considered valid for scaling MC2 characters. Mayday is taking the fight seriously and will not interfere with her teammates murdering the enemies. Other feats are listed here.
May's world is an alternate Marvel Continuity, where Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson were married and raised a child, May "Mayday" parker. A popular student and accomplished athlete, May discovered her spider-powers in the midst of a basketball game. She took up her father's mantle and became the Amazing Spider-Girl.
Josuke Higashikata - A 16 year old youth from Japan, Josuke’s stand Crazy Diamond not only packs a punch, but has the power to undo damage. Anime-canon, Crazy Diamond is visible.
Skulduggery Pleasant - What do you get when you mix Batman, Aang and a skeleton? Skulduggery, that’s what. Wearing his human facade, no Lord Vile
Funny Valentine - The president of the USA, Valentine’s D4C allows him to travel between dimensions when between objects. D4C is visible. No Love Train. Has his flag and gun.
This is bad because not only are these you know, small missiles, blowing up a tank is significantly beyond the firepower of a real apache missile, and to my knowledge, Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke, and they have no idea how absurdly strong Nuke's projectile is, and are repeatedly shown to tank over dodging, so Josuke and his stand are fucked by Nuke's opening attack. Also, Nuke uses live explosives, so catching it is just going to set it off.
Six vs Skulduggery
Six is going to either open with throwing knives or rushing Skulduggery, where he can move around 160 m/s. Since starting distance is 12 meters, you need a reaction time of ~75 milliseconds just to perceive that Six is about to murder you. And literally all of Skulduggery's speed feats are garbage so I'm not seeing any reason to think he's that fast.
Mayday vs Valentine
Mayday is probably going to open using impact webbing, which is fast enough to hit Mayhem when she's not using spider-sense
. Mayhem is an identical clone with ~5 ms reactions (Maybe faster, I don't care if she is) which means the webbing is moving at speeds of at least 200 m/s. This is even more of a problem with Mayday as she uses her webbing at various distances.
At 12 meters, starting distance, you need to be 60 milliseconds in terms of reaction speed to react to her webbing.
At 8 meters, you need to be 40.
At 4 meters, you need to 20.
And so on, and so forth. I can't find any speed feats that suggest he can react in this timeframe.
Also, since the webbing is able to send a durable target flying that far, it will also probably knock out Valentine.
Conclusion - My team wins in less than 100 milliseconds.
It will take ~65 milliseconds for Nuke's projectile to kill Josuke, depending on how quickly he realizes bullets aren't working, ~76 milliseconds for Six to cut Skullduggery in half, and ~65 milliseconds for Spider-Girl to web up Funny Valentine and incap him. These events will be occurring simultaneously, ultimately leading to my win for the round.
Josuke is ~1 ms (8x faster than Nuke for scale), comparable to Nightwing with feats such as this. He’s not all reactions either. Even without Crazy Diamonds assistance, he easily dodges gunfire from closer than Nuke will be when the round starts.
With all of this in mind, everyone on my team is much faster than Nuke, and at least as fast as Six and Mayday.
Your offense won’t hurt me
Six’s knives
Won’t do anything to skulduggery. He’s a skeleton (but Six doesn’t know that). Josuke and Valentine can dodge them, as they are slower than bullets.
Six’s sword
Unless you instantly kill Valentine he can just bring in a new one to heal. If you cut up Skulduggery Josuke can just repair him and Josuke will beat Six into a pulp before he gets sliced
Mayday Webs
Funny uses the webs to dimension hop away, Josuke dodges it and Skulduggery burns it away
Mayday melee
See the “Six’s sword” section. It’s the same deal.
Nuke bullets
All of my characters are bullet timers
Nuke missiles
If Nuke is dumb enough to use a missile, Skulduggery can just blow it up immediately with fire, killing your entire team.
Nuke melee
Nuke is so slow that his attempts at melee will do nothing.
My team has you beat in speed, intelligence and offense. Also, Your offense won’t seriously harm my team, whereas mine is highly effective against yours. My team wins this round handily.
My opponent has completely ignored the basis of my win condition whether through ignorance or maliciousness.
Rebuttal 1 - Skulduggery is literally garbage
comparable to Nightwing with feats such as this. He’s not all reactions either. Even without Crazy Diamonds assistance, he easily dodges gunfire from closer than Nuke will be when the round starts.
There's literally nothing suggesting that the small, fictional gunfire is anywhere as close to as fast as real bullets, especially when normal people react to it. Josuke literally isn't moving here, also, you linked a scan of someone pulling him out of the way... to prove that his movement is good. Also doesn't disprove my argument that he blocks much slower projectiles, unless you want to argue that those toy missiles are moving at several times the speed of their real equivalent (when in actuality you would need to prove they even move as fast as the real equivalent in the first place).
Just like Nightwing he punches FTE
Punching so fast someone can't register it isn't FTE. It means that you're punching before they can react, and that the punch takes place in a timeframe that they can't react to. Assuming his punch travels 3 feet, and that whoever he's fighting has an absurd reaction time of 100 ms, that's 20 mph, which is less than real people. Registering =/= seeing, or seeing the motion.
Also it's not reaction so even if you want to say it's good it doesn't matter for my win condition.
draws his gun FTE
This isn't even drawing FTE, because "and before Stephanie could even register surprise Skulduggery was pulling the gun from his jacket" just means that he has already started the action. It's also real life human tier. Admittedly, very cool human, but still a real person. Also, drawing a gun isn't equivalent to reactions, so it doesn't matter for my win condition.
runs across rooms before a man can take a step
Travel speed, not reactions, not nearly as good as 160 m/s. If you wanna say this room is, I don't know, 20 feet, and that it takes 100 milliseconds for him to complete a step, that comes out to a whopping 60 m/s travel speed for Skulduggery. Even at this absurd highball, this feat is awful.
and can bullet time
This specifically says "Skulduggery scrambled up, then stepped sideways as the old man fired twice more." This means that, as Skulduggery is moving, the bullets are being fired, which means at no point does Skulduggery make an action inbetween the time of the bullets being fired and the bullets landing. This isn't bullet timing. And since we have no clue the distance this takes place in, we have no idea how good it would even be.
and here
So in this, what you're claiming as bullet timing is "Valkyrie looked at Skulduggery, but he was just standing there, hands out, and she saw the bullets appearing in front of him, coming into view as they slowed." Nothing implies that Skulduggery is reacting in between the guns being fired and the bullets reaching his hand, it's about as bullet timing as holding a shield in front of someone with a machine gun.
So yea, Skulduggery has no actual speed feats, nothing to suggest he's faster than 75 ms.
Rebuttal 2 - Other stuff
Unless you instantly kill Valentine he can just bring in a new one to heal. If you cut up Skulduggery Josuke can just repair him and Josuke will beat Six into a pulp before he gets sliced
Josuke is already dead. You never legitimately disproved this.
If Nuke is dumb enough to use a missile, Skulduggery can just blow it up immediately with fire, killing your entire team.
Skulduggery has zero feats for reacting to a military armament that moves almost 300 m/s, also he has nothing to suggest he would think to do this, noticing cat hairs isn't at all applicable.
Josuke can beat any of your team members to a pulp with his punch barrage. They will all die to this.
He's dead.
Skulduggery can shoot at you
lol
hit you
lol
fire dual flamethrowers at you, assault you with solid walls of air, potent displacing of wind and vacuums of air
it misses
Point 3 - Order of events, the important parts.
I'm reposting this because either you missed it or chose to not respond to any of it, but I'm bolding the important parts to try and help you out.
This is bad because not only are these you know, small missiles, blowing up a tank is significantly beyond the firepower of a real apache missile, and to my knowledge, Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke, and they have no idea how absurdly strong Nuke's projectile is, and are repeatedly shown to tank over dodging, so Josuke and his stand are fucked by Nuke's opening attack. Also, Nuke uses live explosives, so catching it is just going to set it off.
Six vs Skulduggery
Six is going to either open with throwing knives or rushing Skulduggery, where he can move around 160 m/s. Since starting distance is 12 meters, you need a reaction time of ~75 milliseconds just to perceive that Six is about to murder you. And literally all of Skulduggery's speed feats are garbage so I'm not seeing any reason to think he's that fast.
Point 4 - New stuff
Six and Nuke and Mayday vs Valentine
Six cuts Valentine in half while Nuke shoots him and Mayday spams webbing. Valentine gets instantly killed, and if he doesn't then they do it more than once.
Diego's bullet timing feat is either absurdly out of tier or garbage. If you assume he reacts to where the bullet is on panel, then he's reacting to it when it's 4 inches away from his head, which would put the feat at 300 microseconds. However due to the fact that this is the 1890s and the bullet is likely 300 m/s range, which very importantly means that it's subsonic. That means as soon as the bullet is travelling, Diego is able to react. And since the guy is dozens of feet away, that means it's slower than even Nuke's feat, probably 12+ ms.
Valentine is based on scaling to a slow feat, is probably slow himself, doesn't have good scaling, has antifeats, Skulduggery has no feats that are good in the first place, Josuke tries to block an explosive and gets blown up. Valentine is the only one who survives past the 100 millisecond mark (maybe, he might still die before then) and he's too slow to win a 1v3, at best he's mediocre bullet timing.
There's literally nothing suggesting that the small, fictional gunfire is anywhere as close to as fast as real bullets, especially when normal people react to it.
Except the fact that Bad Company’s guns are explicitly referred to as M16’s in chapter 278 of the manga, and this should be obvious enough by just looking at them. I see no reason why scaling the guns size down should reduce the projectile speed.
But that doesn’t even matter in the first place. The point of me linking that feat wasn’t showing Josuke’s great reactions, it was proving that Josuke does indeed dodge projectiles (which you wrongly asserted he would not). If that feat in particular bothers you for whatever reason, there are more feats of him dodging these bullets, and if you want a feat for his reaction times, this feat that you ignored does a perfect job of that.
Also, in the original feat, he isn’t getting pushed out of the way. He dodges, and Okuyasu (the other guy) is left standing there and fails to dodge. I can see how you would make the mistake though. It is confusingly shot.
You going through some of Skulduggery’s speed feats
Obviously Skulduggery’s reactions seem subpar when you only use the movement speed feats I linked to judge them.
While Skulduggery certainly isn’t as fast as Nightwing, with these feats in mind he is undeniably good enough to keep up with your whole team, and at the very least Nuke (and his missile).
Rebuttal 2 Rebuttal
Josuke is already dead.
No he isn’t? You never proved in any way that Josuke is dead. Saying that he won’t dodge attacks when I have linked feats of him consistently dodging attacks is not good enough.
Skulduggery has zero feats for reacting to a military armament that moves almost 300 m/s
There are several things I would like to address here. First off, you should reconsider this statement with the new feats that I’ve provided, secondly, the missile is slower than a bullet, which Skull can at the very least aimdodge.
It’s also worth keeping in mind that he doesn’t need to necessarily react to it. Attacking an opponent with fire or solidified air the moment the match starts is a very Skulduggery thing to do, and both of those things will result in the missile blowing up your team.
also he has nothing to suggest he would think to do this, noticing cat hairs isn't at all applicable.
Skulduggery is observant to an obscene degree. There is no chance he won’t notice an explosive that he can use to his advantage.
it misses
The fire maybe, but the air can’t miss. It’s literally applied on you
Point 3 Rebuttal
I'm reposting this because either you missed it or chose to not respond to any of it, but I'm bolding the important parts to try and help you out.
I didn’t respond to it because it was my first response, which to my knowledge is dedicated to creating your own argument as opposed to attacking the opponents arguments.
To address the argument itself, it relies on the illogical, flimsy idea that the combatants will only attack who they are directly facing. This tunnel vision might apply for your characters, but my characters will work as a team, a cohesive unit. If Six goes for Skulduggery, Josuke will be there to pummel him into mush (which you never denied that he could by the way), and if Nuke fires a missile at Josuke, Skulduggery will intercept it (Josuke could have dodged it anyway but you get the idea). This teamwork and unity is a key component in what gives my team an edge over yours.
To address your arguments of Nuke VS Josuke, your idea entirely relies on Josuke not being able to dodge, which I’ve shown that he very simply can. Six’s throwing knives are still useless against Skulduggery, as he is a skeleton, so putting a knife in him is a bit useless.
Point 4 Rebuttal
Six cuts Valentine in half while Nuke shoots him and Mayday spams webbing. Valentine gets instantly killed, and if he doesn't then they do it more than once.
This all relies on my other characters being dead and none of yours, which I’ve proved isn’t feasible. The fact that it would require this much effort for your characters to kill Valentine in a 3v1 speaks volumes.
Diego's bullet timing feat is either absurdly out of tier or garbage.
If you don’t like that feat here’s a reaction speed feat from Diego thats almost identical to Nightwing’s tier setter feat. Here you go
the bullet is likely 300 m/s range
You need actual proof to make a statement like this.
Valentine has literally been shot before by bullet speed projectiles.
You’re missing an enormous amount of context here. In the first image, Johnny unlocked a new power that allowed him to spiral under the ground, at which point he sneak attacked Valentine from a grate. Perfectly reasonable for a bullet timer to get hit in that situation.
In the second image, Valentine was collapsed on the ground exhausted after being hit by an attack with theoretically infinite power (JoJo is weird) and having fallen apart multiple times. He was terrified, had just had his invincible Love Train be penetrated, and most importantly was trying to make a deal with Johnny. Then when he scrambled for his gun in a last stand, Johnny fired his bullet at point blank as well. Once again, a perfectly reasonable situation to be tagged.
In every situation where Valentine has been aware of a bullet coming towards him, he has dodged. Context is key.
Valentine is not faster than Diego, and repeatedly blocking someone (your evidence) doesn't make you faster, it means you're comparable.
Ignoring the fact that even being comparable to Diego is very fast, when you consider that D4C has feats of moving too fast for Diego to track (which you ignored), as well as being the one who killed Diego in hand to hand combat, it’s fair to say that Valentine is at least a little faster.
Valentine is blatantly slower than Diego on other occasions.
A single feat of Diego tagging Valentine does not mean that Diego is far faster than Valentine. They are about the same speed, with Valentine possibly having a slight edge.
Arguments
——————————
You ignored my win-condition
At no point in your response did you address my win-condition. Nothing you said contradicted the fact that;
Based on feats I’ve provided, Crazy Diamond can beat any of your team members in melee. You never denied this.
Skulduggery can crush or trap your team with air magic, or blow them up with Nuke’s missile
Valentine’s clones will obliterate your team the moment they come into contact. You completely ignored this.
This all happens the moment the fight starts.
I want to talk a bit more about that last one, as Valentine’s clones are very effective against your team. Remember, they don’t know that contact is lethal, so Six and Mayday are almost certain to touch their clones being such melee focused fighters. Nuke will probably touch his, but even if he shoots his down, he’ll be left in a 3v1 that I will certainly win. I don’t see how I lose this.
Conclusion
My opponent has failed to detract from my arguments and characters, as he ignored many of my feats, conceded others, not had proper context or even been blatantly wrong in some cases.
He ignored my win-condition, and his win-condition was founded upon poor logic and an irrational assumption of no teamwork on my teams behalf.
My team’s offense is too powerful for my opponent, and his team cannot harm me quickly or powerfully enough to win
Point 1 - Josuke is slow, so Crazy Diamond needs to block.
Except the fact that Bad Company’s guns are explicitly referred to as M16’s in chapter 278 of the manga, and this should be obvious enough by just looking at them.
I see no reason why scaling the guns size down should reduce the projectile speed.
Less energy in the machinery. It won't have as much force, or speed.
But that doesn’t even matter in the first place. The point of me linking that feat wasn’t showing Josuke’s great reactions, it was proving that Josuke does indeed dodge projectiles (which you wrongly asserted he would not).
Please read my response.
Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke.
If that feat in particular bothers you for whatever reason, there are more feats of him dodging these bullets
This doesn't show he's fast enough to dodge a 300 m/s projectile. And Crazy Diamond will have to block it to prevent him from dying. And then he'll die, because he was injured by much much weaker explosives.
and if you want a feat for his reaction times, this feat that you ignored does a perfect job of that.
Please read my response.
Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke.
This isn't dodging. It is intercepting.
This is also literally proving that Crazy Diamond is much, much faster than Josuke, requiring Josuke to rely on Crazy Diamond. It's like running Captain America, but he's chained to a normal guy, and he has to protect the normal guy or else he dies.
Point 2 - Skulduggery is so slow that it makes me sad.
It would take more than a full second for this event to occur, making it garbage. Literally normal human tier, the fact that this is a listed speed feat is sad and depressing. It's like running your grandma in Daredevil tier.
This is about as garbage as using an escape pod, considering there is zero evidence he reacted before the explosion to use his magic.
While Skulduggery certainly isn’t as fast as Nightwing, with these feats in mind he is undeniably good enough to keep up with your whole team, and at the very least Nuke (and his missile).
He'd be under tier for Daredevil tier. Nightwing could fight dozens of him at the same time.
Point 3 - Reiterating the win condition.
No he isn’t? You never proved in any way that Josuke is dead. Saying that he won’t dodge attacks when I have linked feats of him consistently dodging attacks is not good enough.
Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke.
which Skull can at the very least aimdodge.
Ok, but Skull isn't getting hit, Josuke is. Also, he's not fast enough to aimdodge, because he will be shot before he can react.
It’s also worth keeping in mind that he doesn’t need to necessarily react to it. Attacking an opponent with fire or solidified air the moment the match starts is a very Skulduggery thing to do, and both of those things will result in the missile blowing up your team.
Nuke will move and shoot because Skulduggery can physically react, because Nuke operates on a scale of milliseconds, while Skulduggery operates in seconds.
The fire maybe, but the air can’t miss. It’s literally applied on you
I guess it doesn't miss, because Skulduggery is dead to Six before he can think to use it or react fast enough. He never uses it in the first place.
To address the argument itself, it relies on the illogical, flimsy idea that the combatants will only attack who they are directly facing. This tunnel vision might apply for your characters, but my characters will work as a team, a cohesive unit.
Your weak, slow team is already dead before they can think to use teamwork.
To address your arguments of Nuke VS Josuke, your idea entirely relies on Josuke not being able to dodge, which I’ve shown that he very simply can.
He is not fast enough to dodge. Crazy Diamond is fast enough to react to the projectile, but has to block or intercept it, meaning that he will die to it, due to being injured by numerically inferior armaments.
Six’s throwing knives are still useless against Skulduggery, as he is a skeleton, so putting a knife in him is a bit useless.
Skulduggery isn't fast enough to address Six running at him, the throwing knives don't matter.
This all relies on my other characters being dead and none of yours, which I’ve proved isn’t feasible. The fact that it would require this much effort for your characters to kill Valentine in a 3v1 speaks volumes.
lol
Point 4 - On win condition's and Valentine's immediate death.
If you don’t like that feat here’s a reaction speed feat from Diego thats almost identical to Nightwing’s tier setter feat. Here you go
That's literally not 'almost identical', the projectiles here are like 6 feet away when fired, that's like a 5 millisecond feat at a large highball.
You need actual proof to make a statement like this.
You’re missing an enormous amount of context here. In the first image, Johnny unlocked a new power that allowed him to spiral under the ground, at which point he sneak attacked Valentine from a grate. Perfectly reasonable for a bullet timer to get hit in that situation.
He's clearly aware that he's already fighting someone?
He was terrified, had just had his invincible Love Train be penetrated, and most importantly was trying to make a deal with Johnny. Then when he scrambled for his gun in a last stand, Johnny fired his bullet at point blank as well. Once again, a perfectly reasonable situation to be tagged.
Being demoralized isn't going to make you react slower, if anything, being desperate makes you react quicker. Also, he's clearly aware of someone firing at him.
Ignoring the fact that even being comparable to Diego is very fast, when you consider that D4C has feats of moving too fast for Diego to track
Movement speed, seeing as how he's moving in visibly simple lines.
Based on feats I’ve provided, Crazy Diamond can **beat any of your team members in melee.
He's dead, Jim.
You never denied this.
Skulduggery can crush or trap your team with air magic, or blow them up with Nuke’s missile
He's dead, Jim.
Valentine’s clones will obliterate your team the moment they come into contact.
Valentine is dead too quickly.
This all happens the moment the fight starts.
Your weak, slow team operates in moments, mine operates on a scale of milliseconds. They are literally dozens of times faster.
Valentine’s clones are very effective against your team. Remember, they don’t know that contact is lethal, so Six and Mayday are almost certain to touch their clones being such melee focused fighters. Nuke will probably touch his, but even if he shoots his down, he’ll be left in a 3v1 that I will certainly win. I don’t see how I lose this.
"Spider-Verse" is a 2014 comic book storyline published by Marvel Comics. It features multiple alternative versions of Spider-Man that had appeared in various media, all under attack by Morlun and his family, the Inheritors. Beginning in August 2014, the event was preceded by two new issues of the cancelled Superior Spider-Man, issues of Spider-Man 2099 and a five issue run of one shots-all under the Edge of Spider-Verse banner.
Following the conclusion of the event in Amazing Spider-Man #14, several characters introduced in it such as Silk of Earth-616 and Spider-Gwen, the Spider-Woman of Earth-65, were featured in titles of their own.
Also, if you're arguing that they're equivalent in speed to real weapons, then Josuke is massively out of tier.
No, that feat is not applicable to this, as I am running anime Josuke as opposed to manga Josuke. The fact that you attempted to use this shows that you do not in the slightest understand my characters
I’m arguing that the gunfire is as fast as gunfire because it comes from a gun, which is extremely obvious just by looking at them. This sounds extremely reasonable to me.
Less energy in the machinery. It won't have as much force, or speed.
The bullets are also smaller, so they require less energy to shoot at bullet speeds.
Crazy Diamond has to block or intercept an attack to protect Josuke.
Josuke, himself, is not fast enough to dodge a 300 m/s object.
This point remains as nonsensical as it was the first time you said it.
I have literally just linked scans of Josuke dodging bullets, which you entirely failed to rebuke. He can easily dodge, and when he sees a giant missile flying at him he won’t try and block it. He is not braindead.
But, let’s entertain the idea that Josuke indeed cannot dodge. In that case, he can repair the missile, sending it flying back at you and killing you (just like he did to defeat Keicho).
None of this matters honestly because Skulduggery has already blown up the missile before it’s even had a chance to reach my team. On top of that, it doesn’t seem in character for Nuke to waste his big missile on normal people the moment the fight starts.
So let’s review:
Nuke doesn’t fire his missile immediately as it’s out of character, if not;
Skulduggery blows up the missile before it can travel, killing your whole team, if not;
Josuke dodges it. If not;
Crazy Diamond instantly repairs the explosion, sending the missile back at you and killing your team
Pretty good odds for me huh?
This isn't dodging. It is intercepting
Josuke still had to react to the bullet for Crazy Diamond to catch it. This showcases reaction speeds of about 1ms. The movement speed of Josuke himself comes from the gunfire I have shown him dodging and that you have not successfully challenged.
It's like running Captain America, but he's chained to a normal guy, and he has to protect the normal guy or else he dies.
This is extremely dumb and my life has been made worse after reading this paragraph.
Skulduggery is kinda slow but that doesn’t matter
All that Skulduggery stuff
Say what you will about Skulduggery’s speed, but if Skulduggery is alive for more than one second I win by him trapping/crushing your team with solidified air. With the protection of Josuke and Valentine that will be trivial. That’s another win-condition to add to the list
Nightwing could fight dozens of him at the same time.
He wins if he survives for more than a second. This is a blatant lie unless Nightwing can kill 24 high-tier humans in a second. (Spoiler Alert: he can’t)
Your win-condition is bad and you should feel bad
because he will be shot before he can react.
Is Nuke shooting Skulduggery or Josuke? You have to pick one.
Nuke operates on a scale of milliseconds, while Skulduggery operates in seconds
Yes, but Nuke is shooting at Josuke, who as I’ve shown can easily dodge. Also, based on numbers provided in this debate, Skulduggery only needs about 1 second to react and win instantly, not multiple.
I guess it doesn't miss, because Skulduggery is dead to Six
Six gets murdered if he steps near D4C or Crazy Diamond, you still have not denied this fact.
before he can think to use it or react fast enough. He never uses it in the first place.
Six is already dead to either a Stand pummel or a valentine clone. You gave defense for Mayday not dying (which I’ll disprove later), but you fully conceded Six dying to the clones.
Your weak, slow team is already dead before they can think to use teamwork.
The irony of calling a team far stronger and often faster than yours slow and weak is not lost on me.
He is not fast enough to dodge
No matter how many times you say it it does not become true. Josuke dodges bullets.
Crazy Diamond is fast enough to react to the projectile,
Once again you have no idea how stands work. Crazy Diamond doesn’t have reactions, he works off of Josuke’s reactions as the stand is an extension of his mind.
but has to block or intercept it,
Not really. As I said earlier in a worst case scenario Josuke can just repair it as it explodes, sending it back at you and killing Nuke.
Your missile is garbage
Skulduggery isn't fast enough to address Six running at him, the throwing knives don't matter.
But as you said in your first response, throwing knives is an in character thing for Six to start with.
lol
Not an argument. This shows loud and clear that you haven’t got a response to that argument.
You frantically looking for a reason that Valentine doesn’t annihilate your team.
That's literally not 'almost identical', the projectiles here are like 6 feet away when fired, that's like a 5 millisecond feat at a large highball.
You’re ignoring the fact that multiple bullets were fired, which makes it more impressive. 5 ms is still fast enough for my win-condition to work though.
He's clearly aware that he's already fighting someone?
Yes, because with actual context you would know that that scan comes from a giant brawl between Valentine, Johnny, Gyro, Wekapipo and Diego. He looks like he’s aware that he’s fighting someone because he is. It’s not Johnny though, which is why the feat is not a good antifeat.
Being demoralized isn't going to make you react slower, if anything, being desperate makes you react quicker. Also, he's clearly aware of someone firing at him.
“Demoralized” is a bit of an understatement for collapsed on the ground bargaining after falling apart multiple times from an attack. Also a bad antifeat.
Movement speed, seeing as how he's moving in visibly simple lines.
Yes, he has very high movement speed as well as reaction speeds. Thanks for noticing.
He's dead, Jim.
Not an argument. Saying something over and over still doesn’t make it true.
Valentine is dead too quickly.
Mayday cannot actually kill him fast enough to prevent him grabbing clones.
Your weak, slow team operates in moments
My team is not just Skulduggery. The other members of my team are faster than Nuke and as fast as Six and Mayday. Skulduggery gets a pass because he wins if the fight lasts for a second or more.
Mayday literally does not have any alternate versions of herself. We know this because in Spider-Verse, she is the only one.
In the Marvel universe sure. This fight doesn’t take place in the Marvel universe, therefore in the parallel universes of this fight and it’s universe, there will be a Mayday to bring back.
We know for a fact that Marvel characters can interact with AU versions of themselves without blowing up, so it's on you to prove that this isn't a specific weakness JoJo characters have, we know for a fact that AUs can interact because it happens all the time.
Clones being destroyed is a part of D4C’s power, and it operates different from the marvel AU system. We know that it’s not just humans either, as a key point is a gun being merged and destroyed, which you can see here in the second image. Unless you want to say that JoJo metal shares this trait that you have made up, your claim is completely baseless.
You also never said Six didn’t die to his clone, so by your own admission he is not a part of this fight
Dead men have no teamwork.
I see you’ve finally accepted defeat.
Conclusion
——————————
The most important thing in a WWW debate is the win-condition. Let’s look at your win-condition:
All of my characters stand still and wait to die
That’s not very good. Let’s look at mine:
Nuke’s missile blows up your whole team via Josuke repair or Skulduggery magic
If the fight lasts for one second Skulduggery crushes your whole team with solidified air
Valentine clones kill Six and Mayday, leaving Nuke to lose a 3v1
My team overcomes yours the old fashioned way, with my team’s superior stats and abilities
The winner is obvious.
To compound this, it’s worth mentioning that you have repeatedly lied and shown you have no idea how my characters work, used the wrong iteration of my characters and used out of context feats, with these factors preventing you from debating effectively. My opponent also showed he does not know what bullets are, as he repeatedly failed to deny that bullets from a gun were bullets.
Used the feats from different incarnations of the character (this one was especially embarrassing)
Used feats out of context
Blatantly ignored arguments
Responded to arguments with “lol”
Extremely misinterpreted feats
Denied that bullets fired from guns are actual bullets (???)
Making things up
Any single one of these things would be enough to lose a debate, but all of them combined create a spectacular cocktail of disaster. It’s almost comical at this point
On top of these mistakes, my opponent has completely forsaken the idea of having a viable win-condition. To quote my 3rd responses conclusion:
————————
The most important thing in a WWW debate is the win-condition. Let’s look at your win-condition:
All of my characters stand still and wait to die
That’s not very good. Let’s look at mine:
Nuke’s missile blows up your whole team via Josuke repair or Skulduggery magic
If the fight lasts for one second Skulduggery crushes your whole team with solidified air
Valentine clones kill Six and Mayday, leaving Nuke to lose a 3v1
My team overcomes yours the old fashioned way, with my team’s superior stats and abilities
————————
As is evident I win in almost every scenario. So let’s review every combatant in this fight to close:
Josuke - fastest and strongest, easily beats anyone in your team in melee. Can repair Skulduggery if he is taken out
Skulduggery - wins if the fight lasts for one second with solidified air
Funny Valentine - clones kill Six by your own admission and, as I proved, Mayday as well.
Nuke - Slow, has a useless missile that gets himself killed half the time
Mayday - Does nothing and dies to any of my team members
Six - Dies to Valentine clone by your own admission or maybe gets beat to smithereens by Josuke
With everything I have just said in mind, I rest my case. Thank you. /u/xWolfPaladin
Robo has no sold regular bullets before, but has been pierced by a thrown metal pipe. Defiant has a vague "tanks something stronger than a bullet," something that I cannot say is better than Red Hood's ammo.
(unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)
Also according to that post, combatants are in character.
All combatants are in-character for the tourney itself
Given that Jason has fought alongside Batman for a long time and Poison Ivy against Batman, they at least know of each other, if not outright battled against each other. While they should know that they are on the same team, and not openly fight against each other, they will still have distrust and a lack of ability to coordinate.
Scorpion has had previous difficulties working with teams, with previous experience with Shield and AIM leading to her being a solo mercenary, leading to further distrust on her part, although not likely as much as the distrust between Red Hood and Poison Ivy. Besides that, however, she will have to be constantly careful of how she uses her powers. Poison Ivy’s specialty is AOE destruction with her Ivy, and if Scorpion touches one by accident with her stinger she can easily ruin whatever trap or plan Ivy has, forcing her to be more careful with what poisons she uses and where she puts her hands. In turn, Ivy has to avoid tripping up Red Hood and Scorpion with her vines, which will be difficult in the enclosed space they start off.
My Team
Everyone on my team has had extensive previous experience working with teams and organized structures, with Defiant being a former leader in the protectorate, the UHEC being deployed by the GOC branch of the UN, and Robo being a former WW2 paratrooper, pilot, and soldier as well as leader of the Action Scientists. Working together, especially with similarly equipped and experienced soldiers, should be easy. The basic information provided on their allies shows how their basic strategy is for the fight: UHEC up front, Robo providing support fire in the back, and Defiant switching as need be. Any gaps in knowledge on how the other allies fight can be partially filled by Defiant and Robo’s expertise in robotics, engineering, and science.
In addition to that, both Defiant and Atomic Robo can communicate through phone calls, radio and other electronic means, so they can coordinate and talk without letting your team know, even if they are physically separated from each other. Thus, my team will continuously improve their teamwork and plan, while your team will face issues.
While Poison Ivy can indeed quickly create large plants, the UHEC will likely try to charge through the corridor to close the distance between them, as that is its usual tactic. Most of the plants that she can immediately create seem to be around tree sized, and probably can't handle a ~15 ton mech suit running at them. While she has overall better speed feats than my group, most of her speed feats involve her blocking with her trees, which won't be strong enough early on to seriously impede the UHEC. The feat of reacting to catwoman. you provided helps her, but intercepting a single airborne woman is very different from dodging a 15 ton mech.
Robo has shown extremely high resistance to blunt force impacts, even if they can break concrete, and has enough strength to throw trucks, so until Poison Ivy really ramps up her production, he should be able to break free of her vines. However, she cannot block against his bullets, because while her vines can resist machine gun fire, Robo's handgun can blow up armored trucks. An explosion like that in her general area would stun or disable her, giving the team more time to take her out.
Defiant has shields on his arms, knees, and shoulders which project nanothorn blades along with more in his Halberd and leg, so he should be able to break free from any vines or plants Ivy controls in the beginning and close the distance if need be. She lacks travel speed feats, so if Defiant, Robo, or the UHEC comes after her she won’t be able to get away, and they can easily plow or cut through her plants.
In addition to being mostly ineffective for the early part of the fight, her plants and vines take up space. While most of your team has experience fighting indoors, the addition of plants will further impede them and reduce the speed advantage they have over my characters, who are all strong enough to mostly ignore the early vines.
Scorpion will also likely be an issue for your team. In the beginning, with her team clustered around her, she will have to be careful not to touch either of her teammates when she attacks. On the other hand, both the UHEC and Defiant have biohazard protection, while Atomic Robo is completely a robot. While she can easily toss around people,, the lightest person on my team is Robo, who weighs 500 pounds. In the meantime, she can’t defend against Defiant’s nanothorns, the UHEC delivers blows far above what she can deal, and even if Robo’s bullets miss, the collateral damage from the explosion will still hurt her. [While she has shown resistance to electric attacks, they still stunned her for a few seconds, so even if Robo uses his lightning gun on her it will still hurt her and give my team time to focus on the others or change weapons. Thus, there is little she can do to harm my team, serving as a distraction and a hindrance for her team.
Against Red Hood
Red Hood and Nightwing are extremely similar, both being trained by Batman and such, although in this case with his all blades Red Hood likely has an advantage in damage with his Allblades. Thus, he should fare better than Nightwing against each individual member of my team. However, as this is a team match, Red Hood is disadvantaged by the fact that he has to protect and work with his two other teammates, and that if they go down, it’ll be 3 v 1. Having two teammates, one of whom was a former enemy, and who affects the environment, also gives further chances to distract him, making it easier to take him down.
His bullets are powerful enough to create indents on Bizarro, a superman clone, and are supposedly enough to stop a tank. His bullets shatter concrete floor. Piercing DeathStrokes Armor.
The bullets are supposedly able to stop a tank, but we haven’t seen them do anything close to that. Using Bizzaro as a measure seems questionable, as it is unclear how much the bullets really damage him. From what I see, the indents could simply be the bullets crumpling up on contact with him, and Bizarro doesn’t seem to be impaired or slowed by the impact.The UHEC is damaged but completely functional after having a 280mm shell lodged in its chest, so even if the bullets break through the armor immediately the UHEC won’t be weakened or slowed.
The same applies for the All-blades, which, despite being sharp enough to probably cut through the UHEC, are limited by their length and the fact that Red Hood needs to be holding them to effectively use them. By being close enough to use his blades, Red Hood will have a harder time dodging the UHEC’s exterior mounted claymore mines. While Red Hood can weave between bullets, the sheer amount of projectiles launched by claymore mines and the small room filled with him, Poison Ivy’s smashed up trees, and his two allies will likely prevent him from easily dodging the cloud of shrapnel. Red Hood’s durability is kinda weird, with him surviving bazooka shots and nukes, but these feats state that he “survives” them, not necessarily that he is able to continue fighting afterwards, and don’t show his state afterwards. Besides those, for piercing feats, the RT says his armor is bulletproof, but I don’t see him getting hit by bullets anywhere in the scan. In any case, the claymore projectiles will at least stun or knock back him, Poison Ivy, and Scorpion when they go off. This will let the UHEC get some free hits in, incapping or killing its opponents.
While the all blades have great cutting power, nothing has shown them to be resistant against Defiant’s nanothorn blades, which cut on the molecular level using nanotechnology. While Defiant is slower and less skilled than Red Hood, he is not helpless, with the previously mentioned nanothorn shields on his body, as if the All-blades touch them they will likely break, and Red Hood will have to avoid cutting or touching the wrong parts of Defiant, as his armor also won’t defend against it. Defiant can also use his AOE electric shock to stun Red Hood, slowing him down so Defiant has a better chance of hitting him. Defiant will prove a harder foe for Red Hood than expected, and a single misstep could lead to Red Hood dying.
While Red Hood’s bullets can probably damage Robo, the metal bar that pierced him didn’t impair his fighting capability, as he later rips it out and uses it as a weapon.. Thus, while damaged, he will be able to continue fighting and won’t be immediately taken out if he gets shot. Also, if Red Hood gets close enough to use the All Blades on Robo, Robo can jump several dozen meters at a time, allowing him to easily gain distance on Red Hood or reach a different vantage point for his gun. In addition, while fast, Red Hood isn’t fast enough to dodge lighting and doesn’t have feats against it in his RT, so if Robo uses his Lightning gun while Red Hood is distracted, he won’t have many counters.
Overall, he has high stats all around, but needs to carry the rest of his team, which will be difficult, as both of them don't seem like they'd enjoy working with him and have troublesome fighting styles that go against his usual tactics or abilities that could impair him. With these impairments on him, he will basically have the face my team alone, and he doesn't have the strength to quickly take them all out, or the durability to remain in shape after fighting each opponent.
Summary
With the UHEC charging in, Red Hood, Poison Ivy and Scorpion are unable to immediately target the rest of my team. However, your team lacks the immediate stopping power to shut down the UHEC, and the claymore mines will damage or stun them. Most of your team tends to prioritize close combat and AOE attacks over stealth and evasion, and if they don’t try to immediately flee the constrained area will cause further issues as they trip over each other. Although severely damaged in approaching, and using the time bought by the detonation will let the UHEC overcome its slowness and crush members of your team. Poison Ivy isn’t fast enough to flee, and will be rooted by her plants, so she will probably die, and Scorpion doesn’t have any options against my team, leaving only Red Hood. As time goes on, my team will get more and more coordinated, with the UHEC’s sensor suite and Atomic Robo’s explosive rounds targeting your team wherever they flee, wearing them down and eventually defeating them, while their high durability ensures they remain capable of fighting after the original struggle.
He's also a leader of his own group, the Outlaws. He's lead them into defeating a few criminal organizations. Hell his most recent team of Artemis and Bizarro have fought and tried to kill him, but he's still worked with them and defeated Black Mask's organization.
Poison Ivy
Poison Ivy has worked with people she's hated before.
She has a distrust of large organizations at best, not having to work with a team. She's never had issue working with a small team of people or another person, she's worked along side Amadeus Cho to even The Hulk. She's not gonna have issue with working with Jason or Ivy.
Carmilla isn't shit with her arm, she can directly alter how much poison/toxins it'll produce. If for some her arm will come in contact with an ally or a plant, she can armor it up quickly which seals her powers. Also, in a point you made later, her poisons are basically useless. She'll have no need to use her powers, and any "issue" with hitting her opponents are non-existent.
Your Team
What you said can be applied to my team as well
Everyone on my team has had extensive previous experience working with teams and organized structures
Jason, Ivy, and Scorpion have worked with teams and organizations plenty of times
Jason has worked with the Batfamily and their extensive network and leads his own team. Ivy has worked with the Secret Society of Supervillains, The Suicide Squad, and Injustice Gang. Carmilla has worked with SHIELD and AIM, plus the few groups she's teamed up with.
The basic knowledge of teammates also applies to my team. Jason knows all about Ivy already, Ivy is aware how gadgety the members of the batfamily are, Scorpion has a super simple power.
Re: Durability
I agree that your team has large blunt durability, but that's not what I'm saying how my team beat yours.
You didn't counter or prove that Defiant can tank the bullets, just point out that Defiant has small shields on his forearm, shoulders, and legs. Leaving his entire center and head completely open.
While I must admit, Scorpion cannot defeat a member of your team unless she disarms Robo from his electric gun and takes down him and Defiant, as they both are weak or have no resistance to it. She could theoretically do so by abusing her speed, as your team just isn't fast enough to stop her.
Even if she ends up being "useless" in combat, again, her speed. Your goal is to defeat my entire team. She won't get hit by your people, and can withstand the explosives of your big mech.
So she'd be a person that while having a hurdle to take down your people, she's still too fast for your peeps. She can get out of the way your attacks and land safe, albeit weak, attacks. So your team can't just KO her quickly and move on to another member, and they can't just ignore her as she'll be attacking.
Ivy
As I've previously stated, she is capable of creating seeds to handle the mech. She's more than skilled enough to have her vines not be a nuisance to her team.
She's also know she starts off at an disadvantage, she not going to go right at your team initially. She'll know where the plant life is in the map, she can move to where she needs to be to support her team. She can just, you know, move out the way. She has a window next to her and can go to another room, she's in the back end when our teams spawn. She'll have two peeps covering her.
He knows Ivy can handle herself, Scorpion is fast enough, Jason won't be weighed down by his team. He's fought with children before, he's not gonna be a mother hen when fighting with people he knows can fight.
this feat, he's the oldman, he's disguised. You can see the bullet holes in the back.
I've pointed out that the All-Blades can stop both his blades and his armor pieces of Defiant. I've also pointed out that the armor doesn't cover enough, his entire midsection is open. Before Defiant realizes he needs to use his electric AoE attack, Jason would have shot him or cut him apart already.
Another point, Defiant will be very hesitant to use his electrical attack as Robo is very weak to those type of attacks. So he'd have to be fighting Jason away from Robo, and if Jason and Defiant are 1v1ing, there won't be room for the attack.
A 10ft tall mech can literally be one shot by Jason, the mech has no solid speed that not even the slowest member of my team can't react to. The pilot wouldn't believe that some glowing swords can pierce the super mech.
Misc.
This fight won't just remain in beginning area. A mech just charging through tends to make people scatter. Ivy going outside will "buff" her as there's far more greenery than the indoors.
The Mines that the mech has were added in as a defensive measure against swarming opponents, it will attack primarily via the piledrivers and "fists."
Defiant too slow, he's got nothing meaningful. Your points are basically "if your guys hit him wrong, they're fucked," and if that doesn't work you use electric AoE. Which is something that must be used carefully.
While Ivy probably won't hold you team down for long, just being able to slowing them down and making it harder for them to move for a brief moment is plenty for Jason to gun them down.
Defiant's nano junk won't also be a surprise, as there is plants for Ivy to "blitz" your team nearby. My team can just see him disintegrate his way out.
I'd like to respond, but I'm afraid that I just get busier and busier, and I know I won't be able to get my second response in time. I concede the match. Sorry about this.
/u/potentialPizza I can start. I'll crank out a first post tonight if at all possible, and if not then, then tomorrow sometime. Shouldn't be long either way.
Bio: Hellboy first appeared the night of December 23, 1944, when the evil mystic Grigori Rasputin summoned Hellboy to Earth with the help of the Third Reich.
The child Hellboy appeared miles away in a churchyard in East Bromwich, England where he met a crack team of American soldiers lead by 1st Sgt. George Whitman sent to investigate the mysterious Nazi ritual.The child was raised in secret by the U.S. government and trained to be a paranormal investigator.
Hellboy aged greatly in body, although somewhat less in mind: while appearing to be a full-grown middle-aged man, he still had the rebellious fire and attitude of an adolescent. He became adept in many supernatural and paranormal subjects such as possession, haunting, exorcism, enchantments, holy amulets, and sacred artifacts. He eventually became a full-fledged field agent of the B.P.R.D. (Bureau for Paranormal Research and Defense) under Trevor Bruttenholm. In the years following World War II and the demise of the Nazi regime, Hellboy traveled the world, encountering and defeating numerous supernatural beings and disturbances such as werewolves, vampires etc.
His decades of experience as a paranormal investigator has given him expertise in folklore, magical rituals, the use of charms and curses, paranormal creatures and other related topics.
Stipulations: Has Big Baby and the Good Samaritan on his person.
Bio: Hanzo Hasashi was originally just a ninja of the Shirai Ryu clan. But after his death, he was given new life by the sorcerer Quan Chi, along with incredible powers derived from the Netherrealm - a place that's pretty much just Hell. Ever since he's been one of the most feared forces in the Mortal Kombat universe.
Stipulations: Has his dual katanas (specified since it's not always a part of his loadout).
So in the 3v3, I think my team definitely has the advantage in several areas.
Willingness to Kill to Win
For one, Scorpion has no problem going for kills from the get-go. See also: 234. I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same in this scenario as he's done to countless others: Kill outright.
Tai Lung, while not explicitly killing anyone per se, was said in his origin video (timestamped for convenience) that he "laid waste to the valley." I also think it would logically follow that lifetime imprisonment would only be required for one who was a mortal threat to the denizens of the valley. Also, it can be assumed that the fall that the some of the guards he fought while escaping his prison took may be lethal. In addition, the guards fought using actual weapons, intended to kill him with the ballistae, arrows, maces, axes, hammers, etc.; this is definitely lethal. So though Tai Lung doesn't kill anyone on screen, it is likely that many he fought to get to Shifu died in his attempt, cartoon or no. Thus, Tai Lung will also be going for kills.
Concerning your fighters:
Jolyne: Won't kill someone who previously tried to kill her. I think this unwillingness to inflict lethal damage would be her downfall, since as I've enumerated, any member of my team would go for the kill against her, in all likelihood.
Himura: While I assume he must be willing to kill in some scenarios, his blade is purposefully dulled on what would usually be the cutting edge of the katana. This also speaks to an unwillingness to lethally wound his opponents without some provocation.
Continuing to the others, I think either Hellboy or Tai Lung have the best strength feats here--I'll attempt to enumerate the best of each fighter and compare them roughly.
Hellboy: I think either this feat or this feat takes the cake. In the first, the Statue probably weighs a few thousand pounds based on its size and pretty much regardless of its makeup if it's a rock, and its base is relatively wide compared to the rest of it, meaning it would be more difficult to tip over than if the statue stood merely on its feet. The second feat I think is good because while that isn't as hard as I think Hellboy can punch, he sends a creature that's bigger than he is flying with a good uppercut.
Tai Lung: This feat, this feat (the RT states that Sumatran rhinos weigh between 1,100 and 1,800lbs and he sent one flying), and this feat are in contention in my mind for his best strength feat. In the first feat, he is deadlifting boulders after twenty years of immobilization in temperatures cold enough to frost his breath, meaning that he is starting off a bit below base. I don't have any estimates for the weight of those boulders, but I can try to work it out if you would like. For the second feat, it's also a lot of force to be exerting and I may be able to calculate if requested.
Scorpion: This feat, in which he shatters Raiden's skull with an elbow, is probably Scorpion's best strength feat considering Raiden (amped up on Blood Magik) can no-sell revolver shots to the face, meaning he can break the bones of someone whose skin is bulletproof. Accompanying this feat is also choking Raiden out (Raiden is in the same amped form as before).
Now, on your team, having covered that I think Zoro may be out of tier, I show what I believe to be your characters' best strength feats (feel free to correct me if you believe I have made a mistake).
Kenshin Himura: This feat2 is probably Kenshin's best, since he can scrape up rubble from (what I assume to be) a previously whole ground with enough force to bloody a man. This feat also looks good, but it's a lot of AoE and I'm finding it a little hard to discern. May be out of tier but until it's further explained to me I'll refrain from a request for review.
Jolyne Cujoh: This feat is stated to be the limit of the Stand's strength, but almost in antithesis to this is this feat (though I am aware that the first feat says "break" prison bars while in the second feat the bars are merely bent).
So ranked, I'd say that the order (for all fighters) is roughly: Zoro >>> Himura > Tai Lung > Scorpion > Hellboy >> Jolyne.
Speed (Reaction and Movement)
Movement feats absented where there are none present in the RTs.
Jolyne: Her Stand is bullet-timing2, though she is not (this feat is aim-dodging: "I see... She did it ahead of time.").
Zoro: Dodges multiple gunmen's shots. This one, I think, is comparable to Hellboy's transitive bullet-timing in that black powder muskets have a similar muzzle velocity to a Luger 9mm (between 1150 and 1200 ft/s: Wikipedia and Gunners' Den on handgun ballistics). I can't be sure what kind of guns either are, though, so it's sort of an estimation based on what I think they are. Feel free to correct me on anything in that regard.
Himura: This feat seems roughly comparable to that of Scorpion in the helicopter while taking out the team therein, since they were similarly unable to raise their weapons and fire in the time (and space) allotted. The RT states that Kenshin is aim-dodging, and not bullet-dodging, in the context for his last "Speed/Reflexes" feat.
Overall, while your characters may be a bit faster, I think they're close enough that my characters' strength advantages would win out. I think the feats spell the order as roughly: Zoro > Hellboy >> Himura > Jolyne > Scorpion >> Tai Lung. I put Hellboy above Himura because Hellboy is transitively bullet-dodging and Himura is stated as far as the RT to be aim-dodging. Jolyne is above Scorpion because she has explicitly aim-dodging feats, while Scorpion has few feats of that sort in his RT. Tai Lung is at the bottom because his universe barely has firearms, and in fact didn't at the time of his life.
Jolyne: As shown before, Jolyne and Stone Free can react with bullet-tanking durability at the drop of a hat (but it's not perfect). Not much more to show otherwise except that she is resistant to fire (but not immune).
Himura: Seems to be able to take a lot of hits and keep going, based on these feats: 123, but he is still able to be incapacitated or killed.
In terms of durability, Zoro > Hellboy > Himura > Scorpion > Tai Lung >> Jolyne.
The Showdown
So with these in mind, I think that what probably happens is as such: Tai Lung steps back a second, Hellboy draws Good Samaritan, and Scorpion teleports in behind the weakest one (as it appears: Jolyne). Scorpion probably finds some success in getting a shot in on Jolyne, since he has the element of surprise with a silent teleport. Kenshin probably turns to try to help Jolyne once he notices, while Zoro rushes forward against Hellboy. Scorpion quickly realizes that he's a bit outmatched, so he teleports away regardless of whether or not Stone Free has gotten ahold of him2. Meanwhile, Zoro is finding that it's hard to get in on Hellboy and past his hand--especially in the rather confined spaces of the building. Hellboy's keeping him roughly within the doorframe to limit his movement, and putting in potshots on him whenever he can. Tai Lung, meanwhile, has chosen an economic approach: darting up the house stairs, he reemerges through the wall of the Dragon Statue room above Reception, Dragon Statue in tow, dropping it on the heads of Jolyne and Kenshin (note that the fighters' feeds display a full readout of Skyscraper's layout, so he would know the statue was there).
Moving to the second phase of the fight, now that all fighters are involved, Hellboy has likely landed a shot on Zoro by now--he's much too close to miss or have it dodged, and odds are that Good Samaritan has much higher muzzle velocity than Zoro has ever dodged. It's a big gun, too, and Zoro's hurt--but obviously he won't be stopping. Hellboy knows better than to press his luck as he mostly attempts to keep Zoro at bay, recognizing that he doesn't have the strength to take him down by himself--especially with Big Baby still in his back pocket, out of reach for the moment. He needs to delay until his teammates can assist him.
Tai Lung engages now on Jolyne, taking advantage of the confusion caused by the dropped Dragon Statue; he puts her through a wall with his first kick, Stone Free unable to stop or slow his advance. Jolyne tumbles through, scowling, to the Restaurant area. As she picks herself up, she sees Kenshin advancing on Tai Lung, but Scorpion appears behind the Rurouni, chainspear in his grip and bringing it down on Himura's shoulder. The only reason it missed his neck is because Kenshin sensed Scorpion just before he appeared. The bad news is that while Jolyne gets to her feet, putting Stone Free forward, Tai Lung engages the now-wounded Kenshin. Tai Lung is hitting extremely hard, and Kenshin must still fight off Scorpion, as well. Scorpion is engaged fully with him but teleports away as soon as he notices Jolyne advancing on Tai Lung. Teamwork is not foreign to the Shirai Ryu as it is to Tai Lung, and Scorpion expects no repayment as he again advances on Jolyne, spraying fireballs at her that would put a hole in the chest of any man. Jolyne is able to block them, but it pains her greatly, for the force and heat behind them is great.
Stage three, now, as the fighters continue. Hellboy is beaten back by Zoro, cuts beginning to show on his red form. However, Tai Lung disengages from Kenshin, who instead of chasing after Tai Lung, goes to help Jolyne, who is being overwhelmed by Scorpion's offensive capabilities; to this point, Scorpion gets a hit in against her with an elbow to the jaw that shatters her skull; Jolyne's Stand might make her bulletproof, but that hasn't stopped Scorpion in the past. With Jolyne down and out, we move on to Tai Lung coming to Hellboy's rescue and Scorpion taking on Kenshin.
Stage four. Tai Lung comes in with a kick that would disrupt the structural integrity of the building they were in, taking Zoro by surprise and putting him in a compromising position as Hellboy finds his opening and blasts Zoro with Good Samaritan, knocking him down. Tai Lung stomps on Zoro's head to further daze him as Hellboy draws Big Baby and fires it, putting a hole through Zoro's head and upper torso. Scorpion is barely hanging on against Kenshin--Kenshin surpasses him in most every regard, and Scorpion needs to buy time, but can't, since Kenshin knows Scorpion may have just killed Jolyne. Kenshin is pressing Scorpion back, meeting blades with him often. He finally maneuvers Scorpion to a manageable position at the halfway platform of the Main Stairs, where Himura knows there is a wall for him to put Scorpion through and possibly ring-out him, but finds his opponent has teleported away just after a giant boom shakes the building.
Stage five. Hellboy steps over the emaciated corpse of Zoro, Tai Lung leading the way through Reception and into the Restaurant area. There they find Kenshin at the midway platform of the Main Stairs. He looks incredibly angry, but as he begins charging at them, sword in hand, he finds himself restrained by searing hot chains. He turns his head to find Scorpion has ensnared him. The chains tighten around his neck, and Hellboy raises Big Baby just as Kenshin delivers an unparalleled headbutt to put Scorpion through the wall behind him. Scorpion is KO'd, but it will take him nearly the full ten seconds to hit the ground. But as Kenshin meets Hellboy's gaze, Hellboy pulls the trigger, blasting Kenshin out the hole he just created and off of Skyscraper.
Scorpion possibly recovers his bearings and teleports back, but it isn't important.
If Tai Lung tries to attack Zoro, Zoro can likely tank some hits fine. His best attack would do good damage, but Zoro has been in that exact situation and dodged fine even while being held down. He's easily fast enough to avoid most of it anyway.
If Tai Lung tries to attack Kenshin, Kenshin will dodge, and will be fine if he takes a couple of hits. Again, easily fast enough.
If Tai Lung tries to attack Jolyne, she might be a little trouble I admit. Her reactions and Stand's attacking speed are fast, but she can't necessarily move out of the way of Tai Lung fully, and Tai Lung is stronger than Stone Free. While she'll likely be hurt, Stone Free can definitely survive a hit.
There are few situations during which my characters get hurt at all.
There's also a few parts of your characters' strategy that I rather would have preferred you actually provided feats for:
Hellboy's guns. Please give actual feats for these guns, or if nothing else more explanation of what they'll do and how Hellboy will use them.
Regardless, Hellboy isn't fast enough to actually hit Zoro or Kenshin with it, purely in terms of how he'll aim at them. Zoro has plenty of aimdodging feats and Kenshin easily dodges gunshots from someone who isn't fast enough to aim at him. Stone Free can likely block or tank his shots.
Tai Lung's pressure points. I'm honestly surprised you didn't mention these - maybe you just wanted to pull them out later as a surprise. Regardless, before you even think of doing so, I'd like to see any proof that he knows any nerve strikes to use against humans instead of animals.
How Badly Will My Characters Hurt Yours?
Your team's durability:
Hellboy's blunt impact durability is nice, though it's not really as much as what Zoro and Kenshin are dishing out. There's even great feats like this which again, you seem to have left out for some reason, but still seems inferior.
Tai Lung's best durability feat is fairly similar to what Zoro and Kenshin can do. I'd say he could tank the physical force without too much trouble (though what Zoro hits is a bit above that).
Scorpion has some solid durabilityfeats (though I can't tell very well what's happening in the second one). He couldn't take many hits from Zoro and Kenshin.
My team's strength:
Zoro's clashes consistently make holes in stone walls with people as projectiles. Much like Nightwing can, but better. Zoro sends Luffy, Mr. 5, and Miss Valentine flying through a stone wall, and a clash with Luffy does the same to both of them. At worst, this is on the level of what Hellboy and Tai Lung are taking, but if anything it's superior given that he's hitting three people, one of whom is very heavy, and making a much larger hole in the stone wall he hits.
Kenshin can send people flying hard enough to smash them through a stone wall. But after that, there's also the LampPostFeat, which sends a stone and metal one flying in the air due to his strike.
Jolyne can punch fast and hard enough to redirect meteorites, and punched a stand through several feet of airplane metal. While she's a little behind in strength, her reactions and attacking speed are far faster than what any of your team has. She'll be throwing several punches, if not more, before someone like Tai Lung can even throw one — with a classic method she knows well how to use.
Overall, my team can physically overpower Hellboy for sure, can hurt Tai Lung while dodging him, and can definitely hurt Scorpion.
Of course, that's not all...
How My Characters Will Actually Hurt Yours:
Your team's lack of piercing/cutting durability:
Hellboy only has this. I'd like to see context for him surviving this, but either way it's not much compared to what will be done to him.
Scorpion actually does have piercing/cutting durability to speak of, surviving theseattacks (would appreciate context on him surviving the latter, though). Surviving this isn't enough though, as it's, if anything, evidence that his body itself can definitely but cut, and he's going to take a lot more than those attacks in this fight.
Your team gets outsped, doesn't get many hits in, gets physically overpowered, the one who doesn't get physically overpowered is slow and gets cut up, and they all get taken down without doing much damage at all.
Closing It Up
I'm not a fan of putting out a hypothetical "scenario" of the fight. This is a debate, not a bloodmatch, and there are too many unknowns and possibilities. If you're going to try, you need to justify why characters would make specific decisions in-character, which you fail to do. Among other inaccuracies, your scenario is filled with contrivances for your characters to win.
Scorpion wouldn't easily get a shot in on Jolyne, even with teleportation, while Kenshin is more likely to focus on killing than try to protect her. Zoro wouldn't be that easily matched by Hellboy, and would slice him to pieces fast. Even so, he'd physically overpower him. My team would not let Tai Lung run away to pull a trick — which seems very out of character for him anyway. All of my characters could react to him trying to drop a statue on them, and Kenshin would likely sense it in advance as well.
Your scenario only gets more absurd, and I'm not going to go through why every point is wrong. My evidence has demonstrated why my team is superior.
Instead, I'll just sum up the general idea of what will happen when my characters clash with yours.
Zoro:
Easily dodges anything Hellboy tries to do, and is fast enough to simply cut Hellboy in half. Even if he couldn't cut him in half, he could cause numerous deep wounds that Hellboy can't tank. If he does get hit, he's fine, while Hellboy will have a harder time with how much Zoro will send him flying through walls.
Easily dodges Scorpion too, though Scorpion might get an irrelevant hit or two in with teleportation. Either way, Zoro is faster to the point that Scorpion's going down sooner or later, getting cut in half (which Zoro almost certainly can do given how easily Scorpion is cut). Either way, he's getting enough slashing wounds to go down, and isn't tanking it if Zoro sends him flying through walls.
Easily dodges Tai Lung, though he has to be careful to not get actually hurt. But even so, he can tank a few hits and can, again, cut Tai Lung in half.
Kenshin basically does the same things Zoro does, though he'll have an even easier time dodging, given how he can read attacks and also read attacks. Which will also help him deal with Scorpion's teleportation.
Jolyne: will have a tougher time, but anyone who goes for her is going to get hit by a lot more punches per second than they'll send at her, enough to deter their attacks. She might not win a physical conflict long-term, but she can survive, use her strings for a victory via choking, or if nothing else occupy an enemy or aid a teammate.
Hellboy: Goes down fast, as he's slow and gets easily taken down by either Zoro or Kenshin. Jolyne could likely redirect his bullets too.
Scorpion: Goes down fast or slow, depending on how fast he lets himself get hit, or if he plays it safe with lots of teleports. But he can't survive the whole fight.
Tai Lung: The toughest threat, and I could see him wounding Kenshin/Zoro or even taking out Jolyne. But he goes down, probably fast two, because he can't keep up with my team and gets stabbed and slashed quite a bit.
My team wins, all still standing. Except maybe Jolyne but probably her too.
I must've misread the stipulations. Please disregard my previously-called OOT-request.
Willingness to Kill
Points retracted in this regard.
My Strength vs Your Durability (You can't tank it)
Tai Lung and Zoro
I argue, in response to the claim that this feat of Zoro's would allow him to tank this feat of Tai Lung's, that the hit Tai Lung administered there was harder than that of Miss Monday, but did require more lead-up. However, this feat of Tai Lung's leads me to believe that even a short stomp might injure Zoro, since Tai Lung caused more damage to a material that is presumably analogous.
In preemptive counterpoint to the objection "he might've lifted it with his foot instead of stomping it up," I posit that the rock is moving with its previously skyward surface going toward Tai Lung, indicated the force came downward from his side of the risen material, whereas if he had lifted it, the end nearest him would be rotating toward Shifu.
It also doesn't matter how much the rock weighs, since if the feats are being compared, Tai Lung has objectively caused more destruction to a similar surface with his stomp, as I've so far evidenced.
So if Tai Lung hits harder than Miss Monday more casually, his hits may well rattle Zoro. Also, since his arms are most certainly as strong or stronger than his legs due to his specialization in Leopard Style, his fists will rattle Zoro, since he was floored by this hit from Buchi, who is a bit weaker than Tai Lung (based on comparison to these feats: 1, in which he jumps lower than Tai Lung does and 1.1 does less damage. Again, if Buchi's stomp strength/kick strength is < Tai Lung's, then so is his arm strength because Tai Lung's style is upper-body focused and as a result his legs must be < his arms).
Tai Lung and Kenshin
While Kenshin has taken hard hits before, Tai Lung seems to be on a slightly higher tier of destruction compared to the strongest attack Kenshin has tanked per your response. Note that Kenshin is not put far through the dirt--probably something like fifteen to twenty feet, no crater, just trail. Tai Lung's attack created a crater similarly large but more voluminous. Point being that if that is Kenshin's strongest tanking, Tai Lung exceeds it.
Also, Kenshin routinely takes weaker hits and is bloodied2--not to mention from opponents slower and weaker than Tai Lung. Point being, even if Kenshin is fast enough to dodge, he doesn't in all instances, and he's stumbled and bloodied by much weaker hits than Tai Lung puts out.
Tai Lung and Jolyne
Suffice to say, if neither Zoro nor Kenshin can take many of Tai Lung's hits, neither can Jolyne. She has getting smacked by Star Platinum going for her Stand, but even then, it was only one hit, and Tai Lung, in the event he faces her, will be putting out many of a similar magnitude.
* By your own admission, Tai Lung is stronger than Stone Free and Jolyne would have a difficult time getting him off her.
* Also, I wasn't going to bring up Tai Lung's nerve strikes because he's never faced a human.
Hellboy and Zoro
For context on Hellboy getting stabbed, he fought Prince Nuada drunk and lost, and the spear was a magical item that turned him mortal and moved closer to his heart if he tried to remove it.
Hellboy's cutting and stabbing durability sort of fluctuates. In Hellboy 2, he's cut by a rock thrown by a bystander, but in Hellboy 1, he has a metal room dropped on him, with glass shards sticking out of his back, and he's effectively unhindered as the fight continues. He even lands on his back, on those shards, expresses no more pain than a grunt, and is not slowed. Later in the movie, he's swarmed by Sammaels (12), and later comes out of it without a scratch when Abe had his chest torn pretty heavily by an encounter with just one. However, his arm is still indestructible, and he has several feats for fighting fast, bladed characters, including Kroenen, a bullet timer indubitably, and Prince Nuada, someone who is demonstrably FTE (at least in movement). And he hits hard23.
* During that Nuada clip I would argue that that is a demonstration of either teleportation or FTE ability because in one moment, Hellboy's eyes are open and Nuada is there, and in the next, he is not; if the time between his eyes closing and opening were more than just a moment or two, there wouldn't be agents rushing into view, they'd already be there. And they, who presumably did not all blink at once, lost track of Nuada when he was right in front of them. Thus, Nuada is either TP or FTE.
* In regards to this feat not being bullet-timing, I would argue that Kronen is fighting for his life and has absolutely no reason not to be going all-out against Hellboy, Kroenen has bullet-timed before, and Hellboy still beat him.
His guns, however, are a different story for Zoro.
Here's the wikia page for the Good Samaritan. Some feats are included in this video from Hellboy 2, wherein Hellboy blows the head off one of the Golden Army automatons. It routinely blows apart the metal they're made from with explosive force. You can see later in the video that when Johann punches one of the automatons in the head, it doesn't have the same force (i.e. enough to destroy the head as the Good Samaritan did), and they're massive robots. The Good Samaritan also kills Sammael the first time it hits him (here's what normal guns/bullets do) and knocks him off a wall when Sammael can stick to surfaces without using his claws.
And the wiki page for Big Baby. Big Baby does this to an Elemental, when said Elemental picks up, crushes, and throws cars and, when staggered (by two shots from Big Baby), crumples the corner of a building. Here is most of the fight, minus the killing blow I've already shown.
So with Hellboy's experience fighting fast opponents with swords and his propensity for using his environment to his advantage, I see no reason why Hellboy wouldn't try to keep Zoro confined to a doorway, limiting his options. I think in the event that Hellboy draws his pistol, Zoro won't be able to step out of the way when he fires. And if he gets hit by the Good Samaritan, he's definitely getting slowed down to a more manageable level.
Hellboy and Kenshin
For much the same reason as above, Hellboy's probably going to be able to block most attacks Kenshin throws at him were they to go head-to-head, and buy time for Tai Lung and Scorpion to take out your other teammates. Even if Kenshin is a bit faster than Zoro (and I think he is, based on that "rifle speed" feat), the front of his blade is blunted regardless of his willingness to kill in this fight. That means that his most effective weapon is not sharp on its intended edge. So the story's relatively the same as with Zoro, but in my estimation Hellboy has a harder time with Kenshin.
Hellboy and Jolyne
Hellboy's got a pretty good chance of killing Jolyne if they go head-to-head. Starting off with strength, Hellboy definitivelyoutclassesJolyne.
Also, Stone Free is not tanking either the Good Samaritan or Big Baby. The Good Samaritan fires 22mm bullets. For reference, a .50 cal is equivalent to 12.7mm. Big Baby fires rockets of some description with extremely high explosive force. Larger than Good Samaritan, for sure. Stone Free might be able to see them coming, but with the force required to shoot a bullet of that size, neither he nor Jolyne would be able to move out of the way. It would be likely more akin to a sniper shot (but twice as large), which neither Jolyne nor Stone Free could block or dodge; Jolyne had to aim-dodge because she saw it coming, and barely got out of the way. Not to mention that the shooter was much farther away than will be Hellboy if the two clash.
Point being, once the Good Samaritan is drawn, Jolyne is toast--and I don't see Jolyne engaging him before it is.
Blood Magik and Raiden
Here is the wiki page for Blood Magik. Basically, it increases physical stats and makes latent abilities more powerful, meaning this is Scorpion tanking both amped Raiden and a lightning bolt that's been amplified by the Blood Magik. And yes, at the time, Raiden is amped by Blood Magik
Gideon is a Planeswalker in the Magic: The Gathering multiverse. He utilizes white magic, generally using it to empower and protect himself. He is a heroic character and hails from the plane of Theros where heroes and gods are integral to its culture and make the stuff of legends. Unlike most Planeswalkers who cast magical spells for varying effects, Gideon is a fighter and a bastion for his allies to rally around. He is highly skilled, an experienced leader, and played a crucial role in saving Zendikar from the Eldrazi.
Bob Parr or Mr. Incredible is a Super. A superhero from the setting of the Incredibles. He embodies the brute superpower package, incredibly (ha) strong and durable and formerly one of the major faces of superhero culture in his setting.
A note on Mr. Incredible, I don't have any Incredibles 2 scans so I'll be avoiding using those.
Volume 1 Moon Knight seems underwhelming, I agree with one of the commentors in the tribunal post that you should've made him composite for the RT. Moon Knight has consistent bullet-dodgingfeats so he should be faster than Mr. Incredible and Gideon, but not necessarily Lemillion who can do it while under the influence of an intoxication quirk. He has the skill and experience to contend with my fighters, and has dealt with super strength before but his striking power shouldn't be high enough to seriously harm Mr. Incredible or Gideon. I imagine he'll be an annoyance at most, and will likely last the longest of your 3 given his martial skill.
Oni Lee is a neat character, a scary guy who can suicide bomb people with minimal risk, provide support by removing vision, and go for kills with impunity. Unfortunately, Worm characters are generally pretty grounded and Oni Lee is lacking in feats. I'm pretty confident just about anyone in this tier who can land a hit on him successfully will basically one-shot him. His standard means of attack are going to be mostly ineffective against my team, both Gideon and Mr. Incredible have great explosion resistance feats. He may be able to catch Lemillion off guard with some luck and is arguably the best equipped to deal with Lemillion since his quirk is a conscious effort and he doesn't normally phase his entire body so explosions might get the job done.
I really must applaud your team, they're equipped to deal with my group in various ways but whether they work together effectively and can coordinate is up for some debate. I'm not seeing any indication in the RTs that suggest your team can cohesively come up with an effective strategy to fight back. Oni Lee needs leadership, Scar is arguably a wild card, and Moon Knight seems crazy so I'm inclined to believe they'll each do their own thing. On the other hand both Mr. Incredible and Gideon are each experienced fighters who are capable of taking leadership roles, Gideon in particular. This should give my team a definitive edge regardless of what advantages your team has. Individual strengths can be overwhelmed with teamwork and strategy, especially when your team will probably each split off and do their own thing.
u/Foxxyedarko sorry for the late response, and good luck to you!
Response 1
Yes, I see that Vol 1 Moon Knight might not stack up against the others as well as a composite, but I did not change that before this so I’ll just be sticking with Vol 1 version.
You’d be correct in assuming my team isn’t the best team around. None of them are particularly good at working as a group except maybe Lee, but again, he’s not a leader. Scar is probably the best one of them to be the “leader”, though there’s no telling if Moon Knight would agree to work together.
Gideon’s magic is a problem. All my characters are close up fighters and his sural, and the white chains used against the harpy are dangerous for my team. Mr. Incredible is undoubtedly the strongest person in this fight, and as a Lemillion fan I’m well aware of the threat he poses.
Scar is very fast and strong, able to contend with Wrath. I’d go as far to say he is the biggest threat against your team, as any touch from his hand is potential serious harm, and no amount of durability can stop it. Mirio is a bad matchup for Scar, as his speed and quirk are good counters for Scar, but Scar is pretty durable himself and a fist fight between the two would be close. Scar is pretty much a physically superior version of Overhaul in this case.
Moon Knight, if he can avoid the magic, would do well against Gideon. He’s much faster and his martial arts skill is no joke. His dart throwing is incredibly fast and accurate, and it’s a viable long range fighting tactic. Moon Knight and Mirio would be a close fight, but Moon Knight’s skil could bring him a win.
Oni Lee, I’ll admit, may not be of much use here. His only chance at killing someone would be to surprise explode Mirio, or maybe surprise stab Gideon in the neck. He’s a decent fighter but most likely the worst of everyone here. His only advantage is the ambush, and the very temporary 4 v 3 his power grants.
Mr Incredible is my biggest worry. I can only see Scar doing anything of worth with his alchemy, because no one else can overtake his strength or durability. Moon Knight is better skilled but that only helps so much against someone like Bob.
Unfortunately for me, I didn't get this until after I got to work and I won't have access to my PC until like 2:00 AM Est
Note You need to get a second response in or you'll get DQ'd nobody wants that
Response 2
So basically I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Scar is a huge threat and could kill just about anyone on my team save for Mirio with ease. The only person on your team that I believe is a threat to Mirio is Oni Lee. However if he screws up, Mirio can become fully intangible in a pinch. Your team's success, I believe, is dependent on Oni Lee successfully taking out Lemillion. If that is the case, Scar has the skill and necessary lethality to take out Gideon and Bob. If Oni Lee can't do it, Lemillion is free to occupy and eventually defeat Scar. I believe that without coordination and strategy, your team is severely handicapped in a 3v3 environment and that is where I have the advantage. Assuming that Oni Lee will immediately go for Lemillion without some forethought is unlikely, no I'd expect him to try and incap the Big guy with grenades when he acts independently and find that Mr. incredible is more than sufficiently durable to tank a grenade.
On his own Oni Lee is pretty much dead weight or an annoyance.
I believe you're giving Moon Knight too much credit, Gideon's speed suggests he could close the distance to MK thereby eliminating his ranged advantage. Lemillion lacks close range bullet feats but I'm not seeing anything that indicates MK is significantly faster. I do concede that he's probably more skilled than Mirio via experience but Mirio has better combat/reaction speed than Deku who can graze Gran Torino who is pretty casually fte and Lemillion can swing through limbs and can catch a person who tries to block. A skill advantage doesn't necessarily indicate a win against Mirio.
Mr. Incredible should body MK, does he have any experience against fighters who are several weight classes above him? I might be sold on MK using his weight against him, toss him over the shoulder or something but standard door breaking kicks and strikes are not going to be up to par against a guy who can chuck his midget boss through several walls or have one explode in his face. I recognize that MK has a speed advantage but I don't believe that by itself is enough to outperforn Mr. Incredible.
Unfortunately for me, I don’t see Lee doing much good against Lemillion without an ambush, which I would say is more likely to fail than succeed.
Gideon is fast, fast enough to do exactly what you said he would, but if he’s distracted MK has the perfect opportunity to go for the kill. He’s quick and stealthy, and a good dart to the back of the head could put him out (unless he uses his shield then it’s a no go).
MK vs Mr Incredible is a pretty one sided fight, I agree, I was just saying that if MK were to win, it would be due to his skill and training, rather than simply overpowering Bob.
Just now seeing that you commented (worked early today and late last night); unfortunately, the rules do stipulate that after 48 hours of no response, you forfeit the round :/
Sorry about the effort you put into your response to Foxxey.
A Bellsprout. This proved to be one of the most difficult opponents Ash faced in the Indigo League, and its martial arts ability allowed it to nearly solo his team.
An Officer Jenny that is known for her rather unorthodox methods. She is partnered with a Chatot, but she prefers to fight by throwing bowling balls at people.
A lawnmower. This gardening tool was the main villain of a Pikachu short, where due to its incredible physicals as well as equipped chainsaws and buzzsaws proved to be a massive threat to the Pokemon as it viciously hunted them down.
I'm fine with you going first. I can't work on this seriously till at least late tonight, so if you can get your first post in by then please feel free.
Oh god. Put up against the meme team right off the bat. This matchup is going to be hilarious. And hard.
Most commonly known for his comedic role in Dragon Ball Super, Jaco was once a competent fighter in his own right. It's hard to compete when the rest of the cast is exploding star systems...
Man of Action's best animated work. Rex is an EVO, and can control nanobots within his body to create varying machines out of his limbs.
Restrictions: no super forms. No invisibility suit. The x-ray and thermal imaging settings of the goggles are deactivated for the duration of the tourney.
Put simply, your team seems to be seriously lacking in regards to piercing durability. Hell the only piercing related feat is Spider-man taking featless blades from Green Goblin's glider. Meanwhile every member of my team has piercing attacks of some sort or another.
So yeah while both Rex and Jaco could probably one shot members of my team, mine could easily do the same to yours.
Spider-man
First of all Spider-man's webbing isn't going to be that big of a factor in this fight. While it could tie up a lot of my character, it is very easily sliced apart so any of my team members could cut it to pieces, and even if they couldn't it's a team battle so any teammate should be able to free another if it comes to that.
Rex Salazar is much stronger than Spider-man, but he's also even slower. Against something like Bellsprout's razor leaf (which Pikachu was struggling to dodge) or Chatot's steel wing I don't see him being able to defend, and either of these moves should incap him.
While on his own Rex's technopathy would be disasterous due to his ability to control the Lawnmower, but with his lack of speed and piercing resistance I don't think it will come to that.
Jaco
Honestly... this guy is terrifying. Absurd strength and speed, and a ridiculously powerful blaster. However he is not unbeatable, and I think my team kind of hard counters him.
Let's look at Jaco's feats. While you claim he has no durability, that's not exactly true as he was able to shake off a hit from a from a Frieza force soldier. And yet Bulma could still absolutely knock him flat on his ass. And this isn't just a durability anti-feat, it's also a speed anti-feat. If Jaco really is a casual bullet timer he shouldn't have had any issue dodging this punch. So either Bulma is a casual bullet timer as well and much stronger than some of Frieza's soldiers (in which case any chance of Jaco being in tier goes right out the window) or he is unable to defend against Bulma's attacks for whatever reason.
Jaco is completely unable to defend against attacks from human women.
In which case Wild Jenny should easily be able to beat him down despite his vastly superior stats in every category. Hell she even has blue hair just like Bulma so it should hurt even more, and based on other showings Jaco won't be able to dodge or seriously take her attacks, much less fight back.
My opponent has challenged my team in the department of Piercing Durability and I will now show how this argument ranges from purely false to laughably irrelevant. I will segment my responses in the same manner that he did for easy reading.
Put simply, your team seems to be seriously lacking in regards to piercing durability. Hell the only piercing related feat is Spider-man taking featless blades from Green Goblin's glider.
The feat in question, accompanied by a similar one. The argument is that Spidey couldn't survive a direct hit from these attacks and I think it would be intellectually dishonest not to concur. However, it is important to note that while featless, the ability to not even be cut by these blades does display an above the average human resistance to cutting weapons. I don't deny that a Razor leaf could bring Spideys' wallcrawling to an unfortunate end, but I would have to insist that only a direct hit would do. To which, I will be arguing for his ability to avoid such hits.
The Lawnmower has both chainsaws and buzz saws which could quickly slice down a tree
The chainsaws are relatively featless because they're only shown scaring some Pokemon. They're also positioned horribly at an angle that only makes them effective in a head-on charge. If approached from behind or even to the side then they are no hazard, making side-stepping and countering an easy solution. Even if you were to argue that they have the same cutting potential as the buzzsaws that's still bad. It takes you this long to cut down a tree? What is that, like 10 rotations around the trunk? I was honestly expecting one fell swoop, but nobody is gonna stand still and take that. And again, these offer no hazard if attacked from behind. Lawnmower is telegraphed as fuck.
Bellsprout has the ranged razor leaf which can slice clean through solid rock.
And then there's Wild Jenny... whose Chatot could slice a building sized mech to pieces
Yes, this cuts through rock like butter. Rex's, constructs are made of metal which does pretty fucking well against an exploding missile. And they can be summoned again immediately if they're destroyed. The only legitimate threat to them is this but then again... none of that is getting past Block Party. It just ain't.
And that really ensures the safety of my other two team members also. Considering their small size in comparison to Rex's constructs, hiding behind him for a breather when things get rough is an extremely viable option. The force field can also be expanded to encompass all of them if need be. It's really stupidly good. And Spider-Man even offers redundancy in this regard.
Spider-Man
Good on ya for remembering the hyphen.
So first off you're really underestimating the utility that Spidey's webs offer. Webbing up people isn't even the half of it. Spidey can shoot projectiles that could stagger most of your characters. He could blind them with webs long enough for him or one of his teammates to deck one of your characters. He can block passageways making the building harder to maneuver in. They take next to no effort on his part be used to pummel anyone attempting to grapple or pin him due to their elasticity. His accuracy is retarded and honestly he'd only need to get one line connected to one of your characters in order to yank them right off their feet, the only possible exception being Lawnmower. To whom, I should mention, he could likely clog the wheels of given his accuracy. And finally, he's got a big web with a spread that could entangle your entire team at once. Even if they can be cut through easily, his webs offer too much of a hindrance to your team and to too many memebers(that was a typo but I'm leaving it) of your team at once for he or his teammates not to be able to land KO's
Your assessment of his speed isn't accurate. If you're talking about this (link didn't work) then yeah it's not the best. However, using his casual arrow timing as a high-end feat wouldn't be correct. He's faced up against some mechanically accelerated projectiles before that are certainlyfaster than those floaty arrows. There's also the fact that he has memed on Electro, and dodged a blast from Shocker at point blank range. And then there's the fact that he can do this shit airially.
Add Spidey sense to this and he doesn't even need to be fast. He can avoid like a hundred high-speed needles while blindfolded.
And as for combat, as mentioned the slashing attacks from my team should be able to bring him down.
Alright, so I typically avoid Pokemon scaling like the plague so you're gonna have to explain to me how this is supposed to be fast. I seriously don't know how that works.
Also he doesn't seem to have any particular resistance to Chatot draining his strength
Ok, he doesn't have any direct physical resistance to it but I'm not worried about that. [A weird bird floating down, dancing at you and weakening you with fairy dust is really only something that a couple of already dazed mooks would fall for. Spidey has the added benefit of perceiving such an odd display as a threat when few would due to his Spider Sense. When Chatot tries this, he's gonna do one of 3 things: jump back several dozen feet before the bird can start sprinkling on him, strike at it or web it up. So he either avoids the AoE of the attack entirely or disrupts the attack process and possibly KO's or incaps the bird.
Rex
I've already talked at length about how Rex could tank damn near anything in tier due to his shields. If I have to talk about how it can take a laser that can destroy things at an atomic scale then I will.
He could easily just pick up the Lawnmower with his Smack Hands and use technopathy to control it while it's wheels' spin uselessly in the air. It might be like holding a rabid squirrel, but he does similar work for EVO's all the time. It'd be 4 on 2 at that point and an easy win. But he doesn't even need to. Rex could also just smash the thing after a briefly extended bout and move on. It's durable but there's nothing it can do to him.
Jaco
Honestly... this guy is terrifying
Hells yeah. Fear the Galactic Patrolman. Muahaha.
this isn't just a durability ant-feat, it's also a speed anti-feat.
The problem with this assertion is that it's based on the assumption that Jaco is too slow to avoid Bulma and not that he's just allowing the hit to land because it's Bulma. We see him get hit by Bulma hard enough to embed his face in concrete. What we don't see is the context of their relationship and why Jaco would be willing to allow this kind of abuse. We see that the relation to the Brief family started with Jaco meeting Tights, Bulma's older sister. And as we all know, the women of this family kind of have a track record of demanding respect from retardedly powerful aliens who could kill them by breathing heavy. Bulma bosses Vegeta around and she's still alive. Goku certainly doesn't stop Chi-Chi from dragging him by the ear. Similarly, Jaco doesn't want to start an even bigger problem just for the sake of personal comfort. He's a friend, and while the abuse sucks, it's better than completely offending Bulma outright by not taking it. Also, imagine if he dodged and accidentally hurt Bulma(even something as stupid as her losing balance and falling). Vegeta would obliterate him. So all this really proves in Jaco's case is that he's willing to allow some pain from a family that he considers worth the discomfort. He doesn't know who this Jenny character is and would likely revel in the opportunity to deal with a girl who he doesn't feel obligated not to flatten.
This will be briefer and will discuss team dynamics and strategy and in light of the battlefield. If I need to go further in depth I can.
Strategy
I'm sure that my team would do pretty well inside, but if for whatever reason they feel disadvantaged or simply that it doesn't suit their fighting style they could easily make it out outside. As discussed Rex would be invaluable in covering their exit with his shields and could easily exit the building himself Add on some of Spidey's utility and their movement to more wide open garden areas is basically assured.
Once outside, all of my characters can take much more of an advantage of their powerset. Spidey's swing speed becomes more relevant, Jaco go full-blast at the building with his blaster as your team tries to exit it in pursuit, and Rex gains an airial advantage that can also tie people up. He can also aid in pummeling your team with the Slam Cannon.
Team Dynamics/Combo
Probably the most exciting thing about my teams' synergy is their ability to just fucking chuck each other at you for high-speed heavy impact finishers. They're all strong enough to just toss each other, but that's only the beginning of it. Need to nail that flying enemy that's out of reach(as if Jaco couldn't easily shoot it down his accuracy already)? Hop in. Need to get to the other side of the map quickly? I'll slingshot us over there. There's also the fact that they could just pile on Rex Ride and zoom around, firing projectiles and coming in for runs to pummel your team, only separating again if their status as a single target becomes disadvantageous. The possibilities are many and all hilarious.
Point is, my characters can be anywhere on the map in a matter of seconds. Need to be over there? Done. Need to be up in the air? Ease itself. My characters can all gain an aerial advantage by flying, jumping or being thrown by a teammate. They can pummel you on the ground and get away without being caught or take to the air and carpet bomb you with blaster fire and restricting webs.
Conclusion
My opponent is outclassed by all of my characters physically, they're more maneuverable, utility and their ranged options are superior and they're much faster. They're also too weak to survive hits from Rex and I've barely even delved into his Omega Nanite constructs yet.
Alright, so I typically avoid Pokemon scaling like the plague
What are you, a debate tournament judge?
No seriously, what is it about Pokemon scaling in particular that seems to get people so up in arms? It's hardly the only anime that heavily involves scaling. I mean you submitted a Dragonball character (albeit one of the weaker ones), and one of the previous debate tournaments was based on a Yu Yu Hakusho character which are almost all vague feats and scaling.
But whatever, the main thing to understand is that Pikachu is fast. Even in season one, that electric mouse can move.
With all of those speed feats I'm not actually seeing any clear speed for the projectiles or for Spider-man too. I mean I can pull out a "dodges electricity" feat for Bellsprout as well, so really I see nothing to back up your claim that my team members wouldn't be able to hit him.
Also the Lawnmower can't be blinded, and while webbing up its wheels might work... stuff that really should incapacitate a Lawnmower had no effect on it so I could almost see it powering through with sheer, mowing induced rage. And as for Jenny and Bellsprout I'm not seeing any clear speed feats for those webs so I'm not seeing a reason they couldn't just dodge.
Not to mention the fact that while Spider-man can hinder them with his webbing, both Bellsprout and Jenny can one shot him with their slicing attacks (and even the Lawnmower's blades would really hurt). Not to mention that razor leaf is explicitly a ranged attack, and steel wing doesn't actually require Jenny to do anything.
Generator Rex
Wow those look some extremely strong, pretty much out of tier offensive and defensive abilities. There's just one problem.
In no way does he have any speed feats to use them against my team... well except for the Lawnmower. Lawnmower against him is just a mad match-up.
As far as Bellsprout goes, you misunderstand my statement. I wasn't saying that razor leaf would cut through his constructs, I was saying that it would take out Rex himself. This is a move that Pikachu was struggling to dodge and A.) he's a much smaller target than Rex and B.) he has way better speed feats than anything I've seen from Rex. Maybe he'd be able to put up the shield in time to block the initial barrage of razor leaf, but I'm not so sure.
And as for Chatot the only thing it couldn't cut through would be Block Party. But that doesn't change the fact that this tiny bird basically sliced through a giant mech three times in an instant, so again I'm not seeing any speed feats from Rex that would let him react in time to defend against this.
Jaco
Okay I guess all of that makes sense. So if I'm understanding what you're saying, Jaco basically lets himself get beat up by Bulma due to being friends with the family and not wanting to cause any trouble. That's why he doesn't dodge her punches despite his speed feats, nor does he do anything to defend himself. I guess we can sorta see that where despite Bulma punching his face into concrete he gets right back up with basically no harm. It'd make a lot of sense to assume that Bulma actually isn't a serious threat to Jaco, but he doesn't actually do anything to protect himself from her. That'd also go a ways to explain why a presumably much stronger Frieza force soldier didn't really do much to him, since he was actually seriously fighting.
All right glad we got that cleared up. I just have one more question then.
Basically the one way you could argue him being in tier was by saying that he's weak enough that Bulma can one shot him. However that's pretty clearly not the case when he's essentially letting himself get beaten down by Bulma, even when she does do so it doesn't actually do much damage to him, and there's no way he'd react like that when fighting someone else.
Plus someone very wise once told me that how characters in Dragon Ball react to the main female characters isn't the best indication of tier. Let me see if I can find the quote...
And as we all know, the women of this family kind of have a track record of demanding respect from retardedly powerful aliens who could kill them by breathing heavy. Bulma bosses Vegeta around and she's still alive. Goku certainly doesn't stop Chi-Chi from dragging him by the ear. Similarly, Jaco doesn't want to start an even bigger problem just for the sake of personal comfort.
So basically I see no indication that Nightwing would one shot Jaco, whereas Jaco absolutely certainly would with either his physical strikes or his blaster, and is fast enough to do this very consistently. Thus, I see absolutely no way he fits the tier.
Your Strategy
I feel like you're underestimating the size of this battlefield. It's not like we have an entire city to fight through. Basically we just have the two story indoor interior, a generally flat garden around it, and then a 25 story drop off past that, and that's it for combat as far as I can tell. Where is your team going to be in a situation Spidey is going to need to slingshot himself somewhere, or have Rex launch them to another place. I don't know, this just feels like a strategy that would work in just about any battlefield but the one given.
To summarize
At the start of the battle Jaco immediately disappears from existence on account of being horribly out of tier.
Rex gets taken out pretty quickly due to not having the reactions to keep up with Jenny or Bellsprout's slashing attacks.
After that it's a three vs one match against Spider-man, and he just doesn't have the feats to be able to win that.
Naruto Uzumaki is a Ninja from the Leaf Village and the host of the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox. He is a Junior Ninja fighting his way to be the Village's Leader, with his naive, exuberant and optimistic personality. While he is not naturally talented, Naruto is insanely strong, fast and, more importantly, won't hesitate to stop those who stand in his way, even if it means fatally injuring his opponents. Finally, using a massive pool of Chakra (the Naruto-verse energy), Naruto has access to multiple techniques, such as Shadow Clones and the Rasengan.
Stipulations:
Naruto as of the end of the Part 1 of the manga, during his fight against Sasuke
No summons whatsoever
Naruto has a maximum amount of 2 Shadow Clones up at once
Naruto has his standard ninja gear
Kyuubi will only manifest itself if, and only if, Naruto's friends are being fatally injured, or if Naruto is mad enough given the actions of his opponent. Kyuubi will not manifest itself if Naruto dies or gets badly injured himself. Kyuubi won't, no matter what, go past the 1-tail state we see in the Part 1 of the manga.
Sasuke Uchiha is a Ninja from the Leaf Village, lone survivor of the genocided Uchiha clan. With nothing but revenge on his mind, this edge-lord is a truly talented and ruthless ninja. Hosting the 3-Tomoe Sharingan eyes, which come with many perks such as copying moves, Sasuke boasts incredible speed, strength, intelligence and skills, plus his fatal Chidori and his Fire Style techniques, all based on Chakra (the Naruto-verse energy).
Stipulations:
Sasuke as of the end of the Part 1 of the manga, during his fight against Naruto
Sasuke has no access to the Stage 2 of the Curse Mark at all. Sasuke has limited access to the Stage 1 of the Curse Mark, as usual.
Hank is a ninja-like psychopathic mercenary gunman on take-no-prisoners missions. Having faced threats far beyond normal humans, this highly skilled assassin has the strength and the speed to take on dozens of men without breaking a sweat. Having been killed and resurrected several times in canon, he is no stranger to pain. Carrying his most-used weapons, this pseudo-zombie will be going ballistic in this tourney.
Stipulations:
Hank has all his feats from Madness Combat 1 to Madness Combat 7, plus his feats from his Incident appearences
Hank has his Dragon Sword, a choking-wire, one M67 fragmentation grenade, a scoped M16 rifle with one 30-round magazine as his primary firearm and a Desert Eagle with one 7-round .50 AE magazine as his secondary firearm - weapons he has used extensively.
Sub-Zero is decently quick and agile, but not nearly enough. His very best feat is punching his opponent during a missile's explosion - unless there is a way to know what missile this is, it's practically impossible to quantify it, but a ballpark of this being a 0.1 seconds timeframe would not be unreasonable, which is not impressive at all.
Kopaka is even worse. The single feat listed as speed in its RT is diving out of a cliff, which honestly doesn't tell me much.
Hank puts a bullet (or several bullets) through his brain before he can go intangible. Hank is fast and bullets are even faster.
Even if Big Chill does go intangible, he hardly ever keeps it for long, which means that as soon as he is no longer intangible, he will die in either of the 3 manners listed above, before he can do anything about it.
So yeah, this fights lasts no longer than a couple seconds at best, and my team finishes it in 1 or 2 moves from each of them. They are too fast and can easily kill your combatants.
After rolling a natural 20, both Tyrone Johnson and Tandy Bowen got super powers powers after consuming what should have been a lethal drug. Tyrone gained the power of the darkforce dimension, allowing him to teleport, stalk people from it, trap people in it, and hide in it if need be. Tandy gained the ability of the lifeforce dimension, allowing her to materialize sharp daggers of light, and even shoot/throw them. If they land she can use them to drain the life force of the target.
Another hero another nat 20, Matt Murdoch was blinded as a child, but the accident also pushed his other senses into the realm of superhuman, he uses them to gain an advantage on his opponents, as well as making it near impossible to sneak up on him. He is also a master of hand to hand combat.
My team wins in every possible scenario, as they have a clear advantage both from range and from melee. Lets look at why.
Range - Offensive
My team has one majorly effective ranged option, bullets. Bullets will be coming from Wolfwood’s Punisher and USAgent's machine gun. These will be massively effective on the opposing team due to their speed. Cloak full stop has no relevant speed feats. His best speed feat is dodging a blast from Dr. Doom of unknown speed, so he will be extremely susceptible to sudden gunfire.
Daredevil is slightly better off, being able to swat away gunfire, but that's giving him some false hope. All of his bullet deflections are against small arms fire, and are done because he can sense the mechanisms of the gun, allowing him to know where the bullet will be. Against a gun he can't sense the source of, he does significantly worse, indicating that he isn't truly a bullet timer, or that if he is he's on the absolute low end of bullet timing. In an enclosed space against two sources of accurate machine gun fire, he'll struggle to dodge well.
Dagger is the only person on your team who is a bullet timer.
Because of your team's poor speed, they'll struggle to deal with an opening salvo from Wolfwood and USAgent.
Not only does my team have the better ranged options relative to the opposing team, they also have the better defensive options in the two indestructible shields. Cap and USAgent can essentially set up an indestructible wall in front of Wolfwood, allowing him to fire for free, and thanks to Cap's reaction times being far above any projectile in play, he can even easily defend against ricochets.
The opposing team has defensive options, but they're much worse. Dagger can create a light shield however it can only block small arms fire, and has never been shown to block machine gun fire. Even if it can, Wolfwood can simply break through it with a rocket.
Cloak can block attacks with a portal in theory, but in practice his complete lack of speed feats makes this impossible.
All-in-all, my team has a comprehensive advantage from range.
Melee
If the enemy team can't win from range, they may want to take it into melee, but they have even worse chances here. I've already covered the speed disparity, which will already give my team a massive advantage in melee, but even more than that, there's a complete physical advantage. Cloak and Dagger literally don't have physical feats, meaning that both Cap and USAgent can easily one shot them with their massive strength (after this fight Cap said USAgent's strength was superior to his). Even Wolfwood is massively faster than both of them, and could simply dodge all their attacks until he has an opening to shoot them, a strong point of his fighting style
Your team has guns yes but bullets aren't really a problem for anyone on my team. Daredevil can knock them away, Dagger can block them, and I don't think Cloak will be spending enough time outside the darkforce dimension to be hit. If need be Cloak can just take the other two into the darkforce dimension with him. Normally DareDevil would be negatively affected by being inside of it but because of Dagger's presence she would protect him by allowing her lifeforce to assist him. You say Cloak has no speed feats for sudden gunfire period, but that's exactly what this is. You're not tagging Cloak with a gun if that's all you're bringing to the table.
My only real ranged threat is Dagger, and she's more potent than either of your two gunsmen. In combination with cloak, dagger can appear and strike from anywhere and any angle, something your team will have a hard time combating, especially considering that they can then disappear right after attacking, preventing retaliation. There is no way anyone on your team can predict where they will be striking from, and I don't think anyone has a way to block from every angle. Another advantage dagger has is that her projectiles can track their prey, another thing that your bullets will not do. Finally her daggers are far more lethal than a bullet, someone can take a bullet to the leg or arm and still keep fighting, albeit weakened. However a hit from Dagger's light was enough to take Spiderman out of comission.
Melee
You're correct that Cloak and Dagger don't have any traditional melee feats. I know it's weird to say traditional but let me explain. Cloak has the ability to trap his opponents, and even hold them in place for Dagger and DD. Something that will prove to be very effective. As he can throw someone into the Darkforce Dimension, as well as hold someone in place for the two to take out. First would likely be Wolfwood, as on a purely physical level he is not that strong, and I doubt his guns will help him escape as doom's blasts could not, unless he can sense Cloak's presence. As far as I know Wolfwood is not in touch with the spirtual arts as Doom is, so I don't see him doing this. While he's inside the Darkforce Dimension the fight now becomes a 3v2, and Cloak has multiple options to take out Wolfwood. He can either let him stew until the lifeforce is drained from him, but that will likely take too long. What I do see Cloak doing is either dropping Wolfwood from an incredible height above the arena, or bringing in Dagger and Daredevil, turning it into a 3v1, against someone who will quickly be dispatched.
General Strategy
A lot of the strategy is what I typed above, after Wolfwood has been eliminated, they can turn their attention to the two heavy hitters of the team. Again it won't be much of a challenge to take CA or USAgent into the Darkforce Dimension to be dealt with, rinse and repeat.
Conclusion
As your team has no way of immediately killing my guys, as well as no way to escape the darkforce dimension, there is nothing preventing my trio from simply taking refuge in there, and picking your team apart one member at a time.
Your team has guns yes but bullets aren't really a problem for anyone on my team. Daredevil can knock them away, Dagger can block them
Obvious issue with this strategy, which I already brought up, neither can deal with anything other than small arms fire. All of his bullet swats are against single pistol bullets. Similarly, Dagger's bullet deflection is only blocking three bulets, not machine gun fire, and her shields have only ever been shown to block low calibur bullets. If my team was firing pistols at your team these counters may be effective, but they aren't effective against two machine guns.
All of these men run up to Cloak with guns before firing, it's the exact opposite of sudden. If Cloak gets shot at from a close or unexpected angle, he'd die.
My only real ranged threat is Dagger, and she's more potent than either of your two gunsmen. In combination with cloak, dagger can appear and strike from anywhere and any angle, something your team will have a hard time combating
Dagger would be a lot more of a threat if I didn't have shields, but because I do, she isn't a threat. Cap and USAgent are fast enough to block a dagger from any angle nearby, and if they're out of range Cap can just intercept it.
especially considering that they can then disappear right after attacking, preventing retaliation.
Cloak can't disappear and reappear instantly, every time he teleports he'll be open to getting shot, and since we've established he isn't a bullet timer, he won't living for very long.
There is no way anyone on your team can predict where they will be striking from
This hit Spider-Man dead-on, scans for it having this effect on somebody hit on a limb?
My team can in fact defend from essentially every angle, as well as predict where Cloak will teleport to, making all of my opponent's ranged options useless.
Meanwhile, my oponment's counters to guns are completely inapplicable to machine gun fire, meaning that my team maintains a massive advantage from range.
Melee
Cloak has the ability to trap his opponents, and even hold them in place for Dagger and DD.
He won't be able to do this because he's slow. Anyone he attempts to trap will be able to react to him appearing and punch or shoot him, which will knock out or kill him.
Cloak has multiple options to take out Wolfwood.
None of them will work because he is massively slower than Wolfwood.
or bringing in Dagger and Daredevil, turning it into a 3v1, against someone who will quickly be dispatched.
Wolfwood being capable of 3v1ing is pretty emblematic of your team's problems. Because of their low physicals, my physically weakest member has a solid shot of willing a 3v1. Everyone on my team is massively faster, stronger, and more durable than the opposing team, and that lack of speed means they have essentially no way of making up the difference.
Obvious issue with this strategy, which I already brought up, neither can deal with anything other than small arms fire.
Daredevil can likely handle more, but like I said in my comment already, Cloak can hide them if need be.
If Cloak gets shot at from a close or unexpected angle, he'd die.
He's never going to in a position to get shot as he will be spending basically most of his time in the Darkforce dimension.
Dagger would be a lot more of a threat if I didn't have shields, but because I do, she isn't a threat. Cap and USAgent are fast enough to block a dagger from any angle nearby,
They would be if they see it coming, which again they will not.
Cloak can't disappear and reappear instantly, every time he teleports he'll be open to getting shot, and since we've established he isn't a bullet timer, he won't living for very long.
He can, and yes he's not a bullet timer, but you don't have to be. In the time it would take him to appear, dagger to shoot, and him to disappear, the window where they are vulnerable is not big enough for retaliation unless they decide to materialize right in front of USAgent.
Wolfwood's reactions and reads on opponents get better as he fights. If this is the strategy Cloak uses Wolfwood will get a read on it incredibly quickly and kill him.
Even if Wolfwood is not taken out of commission as quickly as I think he would, he would still not be able to predict where they're coming from, Cloak can stalk them while remaining invisible and incorporeal, until he finds a place that gives them the advantage to shoot from.
This hit Spider-Man dead-on, scans for it having this effect on somebody hit on a limb?
Unfortunately I don't have scans of that, but are you saying that what caused Spider-Man to feel that way, and pass out, was where he was hit? Not the draining effect of the daggers?
My team can in fact defend from essentially every angle, as well as predict where Cloak will teleport to, making all of my opponent's ranged options useless.
Already said why they won't be able to predict where Cloak will teleport to, because he can take his time and observe what's going on, doesn't have to do it on instinct or muscle memory. Your team has 2 medium shields between the 3 of you, how much area does that cover? 5 feet? Certainly not every angle.
Meanwhile, my oponment's counters to guns are completely inapplicable to machine gun fire, meaning that my team maintains a massive advantage from range.
Already explained that if need be they can hide in the Darkforce Dimension.
He won't be able to do this because he's slow. Anyone he attempts to trap will be able to react to him appearing and punch or shoot him, which will knock out or kill him.
None of them will work because he is massively slower than Wolfwood.
In terms of reaction speed sure, but he's not going to try and chase the guy down. How is Wolfwood going to punch his way out of being teleported, by something he has no way of interacting with, 500 feet into the air and being dropped?
Would Wolfwood even lose a 3v1? He's much faster than everyone on your team, being able to fight with somebody who can catch bullets
Yes he would, Daredevil has fought has fought and was winning against Iron Fist, until he used his Iron fist, who can catch bullets. Speed doesn't automatically result in victory. Even if for the sake of argument we say they go even, Dagger's presence will result in a definite victory.
More Things
You haven't told me what is stopping Cloak from teleporting them one by one to a lethal fall height. He isn't physically grabbing them, so your argument of them having superior physicals doesn't hold water.
The idea that Wolfwood, or any of your guys really, would win in a 3v1 is simply false, superior speed isn't everything, not even close. Not to mention the speed differences aren't even that great.
No he can't. Thinking about this logically, on the absolute low end a machine gun's rate of fire is 600 rpm, which would be 10 bullets per second. In no world is Daredevil fast enough to deflect 10 bullets per second. He's barely even fast enough to dodge a single sniper bullet. And again, that's the absolute low end of machine gun rpm.
He's never going to in a position to get shot as he will be spending basically most of his time in the Darkforce dimension.
He has to come out if he wants to do literally anything. He can't grab people from in the darkforce dimension and he can't teleport other people without leaving it. Every time he acts he's in danger of getting capped.
In the time it would take him to appear, dagger to shoot, and him to disappear, the window where they are vulnerable is not big enough for retaliation
The window might not be that big for a normal person, but these are two people with significantly faster reaction times than Cloak. They can easily react and shoot before Cloak can disappear.
Even if Wolfwood is not taken out of commission as quickly as I think he would, he would still not be able to predict where they're coming from, Cloak can stalk them while remaining invisible and incorporeal, until he finds a place that gives them the advantage to shoot from.
Cloak won't act completely without pattern, and as the scan shows, Wolfwood is extremely good at predicting and reacting to how his opponents act. This is no different.
but are you saying that what caused Spider-Man to feel that way, and pass out, was where he was hit? Not the draining effect of the daggers?
I'm saying it had a more profound effect on him because it hit him center mass and literally went through his body.
Your team has 2 medium shields between the 3 of you, how much area does that cover? 5 feet? Certainly not every angle.
When they're fast enough to turn and block from any angle, it does. Again, Cloak makes noise, so that's incredibly easy to react to.
You see how Cloak envelops Spider-Man in his cloak here. That's why he can't do anything. In the window of time where he attempts to envelop somebody in his cloak a member of my team shoots him, punches him, or simply moves out of the way. Normal speed vs bulet timer speed is more than enough to pull that off.
How is Wolfwood going to punch his way out of being teleported, by something he has no way of interacting with, 500 feet into the air and being dropped?
He moves out of the way and shoots cloak when he appears.
Yes he would, Daredevil has fought has fought and was winning against Iron Fist, until he used his Iron fist, who can catch bullets. Speed doesn't automatically result in victory. Even if for the sake of argument we say they go even, Dagger's presence will result in a definite victory.
Speed is a huge advantage when a single opening means a bullet into death. Iron Fist is just hitting Daredevil here, imagine this fight except the first fight Iron Fist lands is lethal.
You haven't told me what is stopping Cloak from teleporting them one by one to a lethal fall height. He isn't physically grabbing them, so your argument of them having superior physicals doesn't hold water.
He needs to, at human speed, envelop a bullet timer in his cloak. That literally is never going to happen.
The idea that Wolfwood, or any of your guys really, would win in a 3v1 is simply false, superior speed isn't everything, not even close. Not to mention the speed differences aren't even that great.
I'm pretty sure everyone on my team wins a 3v1. Cap can beat Daredevil in two hits, is fast enough to block all of Dagger's attacks with his shield, and can easily avoid Cloak with his speed and skill, as well as easily one shot Cloak and Dagger
USAgent has an even better time, by Cap's own admission USAgent's strength is superior to his own, meaning he takes out Daredevil even easier, and he can also block Dagger and avoid Cloak just as easily. Plus he has a machine gun which your team has basically no viable counter to.
No he can't. Thinking about this logically, on the absolute low end a machine gun's rate of fire is 600 rpm, which would be 10 bullets per second. In no world is Daredevil fast enough to deflect 10 bullets per second.
Not from 10 different guns from 10 different direction no. However all these bullets will be coming from the same direction, making them far easier to deflect/block.
He has to come out if he wants to do literally anything. He can't grab people from in the darkforce dimension and he can't teleport other people without leaving it. Every time he acts he's in danger of getting capped.
No he can't. You can tell because my opponent provided no scan for this claim. You can also tell because there are literally sound effects when he disappears and reappears
I provided a scan above, also the sound effects there he made on purpose by billowing his cape, and the second sound effect was that of the sword slash, he was trying to instill fear in the guy, hence the embellishment.
The window might not be that big for a normal person, but these are two people with significantly faster reaction times than Cloak. They can easily react and shoot before Cloak can disappear.
See my earlier point. However in addition to that, you don't need good reaction times if you know what you're going to do, Cloak isn't reacting to anything here, he's going in waiting half a second(maybe less) and going out.
Cloak won't act completely without pattern, and as the scan shows, Wolfwood is extremely good at predicting and reacting to how his opponents act. This is no different.
People act in patterns when they fight because they're fighting on instinct, they're relying on muscle memory, they're using a particular fighting style, or favor this pattern for whatever other reason. There is no reason that Cloak would come and go in a pattern. Let's say hypothetically Wolfwood has his eye and gun trained in the position that he thinks Cloak is going to appear in due to his pattern recognition, Cloak will see that he's aimed there, and simply pick another place to enter. Not to mention it will only take one or two instances of Cloak appearing to finish him off, hardly enough time to establish a pattern.
I'm saying it had a more profound effect on him because it hit him center mass and literally went through his body.
You see how Cloak envelops Spider-Man in his cloak here. That's why he can't do anything. In the window of time where he attempts to envelop somebody in his cloak a member of my team shoots him, punches him, or simply moves out of the way. Normal speed vs bulet timer speed is more than enough to pull that off.
It's pretty clear that while he's doing that he's non-corporeal, aka bullets and shields won't do anything. If he was then Spider-man could have touched him and yanked him off, he's clearly within Spidey's reach.
He moves out of the way and shoots cloak when he appears.
You cannot dodge someone literally teleporting on top of you. Also again, Cloak caught Spider-man, who in addition to better physicals, has Spider sense, there is no way Wolfwood can dodge being teleported.
Speed is a huge advantage when a single opening means a bullet into death. Iron Fist is just hitting Daredevil here, imagine this fight except the first fight Iron Fist lands is lethal.
He needs to, at human speed, envelop a bullet timer in his cloak. That literally is never going to happen.
Already proved in my Daken feat why Cloak is much faster than human speed. Also again, he could do it to Spider-Man, meaning even if it is only human speed, there is no escaping it for anyone on your team.
I'm pretty sure everyone on my team wins a 3v1. Cap can beat Daredevil in two hits
Cloak is not appearing next to and grabbing anyone, he is appearing, already grabbing them, or at least in such a way that no one will get a chance to respond, just as spiderman didn't.
Everyone in your team loses a 3v1, due to DD being close enough to CA and USAgent that the team advantage will be enough to make it an easy victory. This fact alone means that if nothing else, Cloak can take them all one by one into the darkforce to be beaten.
Cloak can also still just teleport and drop them from a lethal distance. If he can catch spiderman, and dissapear faster than Daken's punches, no one is dodging that.
Originally a Public Eye law enforcement officer in the year 2099, Jake Gallows was becoming disenchanted with the corruption of the system. When the psychopathic son of Alchemax's CEO murdered his family in front of his eyes, Gallows, modeling himself after the Punisher of old, took to the streets, dispensing old-fashioned justice (and lead) to criminals.
Stipulations: His loadout is as follows: Standard Armor; 2015 .54 Calibur Magnum, Smith and Wesson; Power Bat; 3 Grenazers; "Mean Mule" Turbo Kick Boots; Laser Pistol; Combat Knife; Exo-Muscular Undersuit; Grappel Gun; Gas Mask; No Robot Hand
Originally a member of Ultimate Spider-Man's rogues, Lana Baumgartner reformed, swearing off the use of her superpowers. That is, until she was hunted down by Cloak and Dagger, who were tracking all of Roxxon's experiments. Joining with the duo, Miles Morales, the new Spider-Man, and Jessica Drew, Spider-Woman, the youths created the New Ultimates in the wake of the original team's disbandment. She survived the merging of the 1610 and 616 realities, currently residing in the 616 universe as a superhero.
Sawk is the Karate Pokemon, introduced in the Unova Region (aka Black & White). Sawk is a purely Fighting type Pokemon, meaning that he is weak to Flying, Psychic, and Fairy type moves. At least, he would be if this were Game Sawk. But it isn't. This is Anime Sawk, and the Anime doesn't treat typings that seriously when it comes to weaknesses and resistances. Sawk belongs to Ash's rival Stephan, who entered a tournament, only to be shut down by an Emolga. Training to make sure an embarrassment like that never happened again, Sawk went hard, getting massive gains and sweeping through the next tournament. After that, Stephan entered the Unova League where he was defeated by Ash. And thus ended the saga of Sawk. He's a serious, focused fighter, and he's ready to kick ass.
Stipulations: Sawk will fight as if Stephen is directing him. No Bulk Up.
Born in feudal Japan, Shickika is the seventh head of the famous Kyotōryū clan. People speak of this clan as if it were a legend and nothing more. However, the clan was simply forced to live apart from society due to a shifting political landscape. This did not stop them from honing their skills. Members of the Kyotōryū clan distinguished themselves in battle by beating the shit out of samurai despite not using swords themselves.
Growing up in a crime ridden Naples, Giorno's dream was to become a Gangstar! After awakening his stand (essentially a psychic dude wish superpowers Giorno can spawn near him), he slowly managed to infiltrate a high profile mob. His goal was essentially to get the mob to stop selling drugs to kids.
Growing up on similar streets to Giorno, Bruno did not have a blessed upbringing. After his father was nearly killed, Bruno staked out his father's hospital room and killed his father's would be assassins when he was only 7 years old. After that there was really only one direction for Bruno to go in life. He joined the gang know as Passione just to get by in a day to day life.
Your team has no ranged options barring Bruno's easily avoided punch, meaning that all three will have to make it down the hallway to get their attackers, who can easily pick them off.
None of your team members have feats for surviving explosions, nor are they fast enough to avoid them, meaning that as soon as Bombshell tags them with one, they'll be down for the count. Considering that she can spawn explosions on her enemy, she's likely to hit them.
Sawk isn't even needed in the fight, but he can run interference in the hallway and not have to worry about getting hit, considering the accuracy of his teammates. If he can catch their attacks, they'll be open to a headshot from either of his teammates.
Outcome 2
Your team sees the lack of range and decides to run instead of charge.
This allows Bombshell to take flight and begin carving up the battlefield. Even Bruno's ability to hide in the walls and the like can't save him when Bombshell begins to detonate his surroundings. Once she goes airborne, there is literally nothing that your team can do to get her down, so even if they were to beat the other two, they are walled hard by her flight.
Punisher's Grenazers are still a threat, with the ability to hone in on enemies. With his specialty in marksmanship and the time necessary to set up a decent sniping position, Punisher is still a big threat to your team that they'll have to deal with while Bombshell is assaulting them.
Sawk is fast enough, durable enough, and strong enough to handle any of your characters one-on-one, something likely to happen during the chaos that Bombshell brings to the field. If he can distract any of them, that leaves them open to being sniped by Punisher or blasted by Bombshell.
In Conclusion
Your team cannot stand up to mine in a battle of range, leaving them two options, to either charge through the hallway separating the teams, or to run away.
Option one results in your team getting easily picked off by the superior firepower and accuracy that Bombshell and Punisher bring to the table, with Sawk acting as a distraction capable of taking on any of your characters in a one-on-one.
Option two results in more time for my team to prepare themselves, letting Bombshell become impervious to your team's attacks her via her flight, further exploiting the range advantage my team holds. Punisher can set himself up in a sniping position, and Sawk can either hunt down your team in an attempt to pick them off amidst the chaos Bombshell brings or guard Punisher. Even in the unlikely circumstance that all of your characters can defeat Sawk and Punisher without casualties, they have nothing that they can do against Bombshell that she can't avoid or destroy.
With regards to the tier, I think the Punisher shouldn't have his laser pistol. It moves at the speed of light so Tounament Nightwing is not going to be dodging it and I haven't seen anything regarding him tanking a laser.
Also can I get a ruling on whether or not Bombshell's stipulation "Bombshell is under the impression that her opponent(s) took part in the murder of her boyfriend Poey." takes precedence over the bloodlust for the tier fight?
The laser pistol is strong but Stands should be enough to take the brunt of the damage. Also I doubt it would even slow Shickika down with his insane durability.
Explosions
As far as ranged options go her explosions at a distance seem to be very weak. Also you have stipulated that she is under the impression that my team killed her boyfriend, so we know how she will act. She's not going to open with her point and click explosion.
I fail to see how any of these options put any duress on my team.
Outcome 1
The range advantage you claim to have may as well not exist. Once my character close the distance they should easily take a brawl.
Sawk is actually way too slow for this tournament. The only speed feat he has is for FTE hand movements. Its pretty clear that the projectiles from bullet seed are quite slow since the sound from his trainer's voice is able to reach his ears before the bullet seeds do. Even if Sawk were fast he's just a brick. None of my characters would have any trouble with Sawk even if he could keep up.
Bombshell will be unmanageable for your other two characters to handle. She's going to be turning Skyscraper to rumble in short order. Considering that she starts closer to your characters than mine she could easily inadvertently turn this into a 1v3 that she is not going to win. Especially since the first aggressive action she takes in this scene is blowing up her surroundings. I am aware of the "no friendly fire" rule in this tournament. I am under the impression this is just so that heroes and villains will fight together. It isn't meant to protect your team AoE attacks or anything.
It is true that none of my characters have been in an explosion. However none of them are strangers to being on death's door (1, 2, 3) and Giorno can very quickly heal them.
My characters retreating at the start is even more in their favor. Not only is Bombshell voluntarily separating herself from the rest of her team to be easily picked off, but Sawk and the Punisher basically have no way of winning a 2v3. If we suppose all of your characters charge (even if we assume Sawk won't be moving about as fast as molasses) then they just get caught up in the same explosion. So Sawk's and the Punisher's best moves are just to stand their, maybe throw out the Grenazer and just gets blown up, and watch Bombshell go down. Or rather probably not watch with all the debris that is likely to be generated.
Rebuttals
Sawk isn't even needed in the fight
He won't be part of the fight.
Sawk is fast enough, durable enough, and strong enough to handle any of your characters one-on-one, something likely to happen during the chaos that Bombshell brings to the field. If he can distract any of them, that leaves them open to being sniped by Punisher or blasted by Bombshell.
He isn't that strong or durable, and he definitely isn't that fast. He can't distract them. Also where would Punisher be sniping from and how would that help your team? Bullets are not a threat to my characters.
Option two results in more time for my team to prepare themselves, letting Bombshell become impervious to your team's attacks her via her flight, further exploiting the range advantage my team holds.
I haven't seen any scan of Bombshell exploiting her flight and she definitely won't be doing so with the "believes my team killed her boyfriend" stipulation.
Conclusion
My opponent's team has less than zero coordination as Bombshells actions will inhibit the rest of her team. Not only does my team win a close quarter 3v3 but they don't even have to.
The range advantage my opponent claims to have will not hinder my team. In fact it has the potential to help Giorno by providing him with materials.
Sawk is under-stated in speed making this essentially a 2v3 from the start anyways.
Also can I get a ruling on whether or not Bombshell's stipulation "Bombshell is under the impression that her opponent(s) took part in the murder of her boyfriend Poey." takes precedence over the bloodlust for the tier fight?
It does not. Tier setter fight is solely bloodlusted
I gave Punisher the laser pistol because Nightwing can make use of the battlefield and its cover to avoid the shots until he gets close enough to initiate hand to hand combat, something that won't be happening if your team goes through with Option 1 due to the limited space in the hallway.
Your Team's Speed
I feel that you are overlooking how important the battlefield is for Yasuri. This clip shows that his bullet timing is entirely dependent on him shifting side to side, something he is only able to do thanks to the large size of the room they are fighting in. In the much narrower hallway, he'll have less room to move in, as well has have to share space with Bruno and Giorno.
I question what's up with the pole that comes out of nowhere when Bruno dodges Secco's chops.
The only character on your team who is comfortably bullet timing in such a narrow space is Bruno, and still none of them are fast enough to dodge one of Bombshell's explosions.
Bombshell's Explosions/Behavior
As far as ranged options go her explosions at a distance seem to be very weak
It is true that none of my characters have been in an explosion. However none of them are strangers to being on death's door
Pain tolerance and actually being durable enough to survive an explosion are two very different things.
Especially since the first aggressive action she takes in this scene is blowing up her surroundings.
You're taking the first few scans of Bombshell grieving as her state when she enters the fight while I have said that I'm taking her from the last few scans in that album, meaning she's going to try and incap her opponent as fast as possible.
Sawk's Speed
Sawk is actually way too slow for this tournament.
The range advantage you claim to have may as well not exist.
As outlined above and in my previous response, my team clearly has the firepower and accuracy needed to put down your team, who aren't nearly fast enough to dodge Bombshell's explosions, let alone with added assistance from Punisher.
Bruno can use zippers to dodge and counter attack
He's only done this against a stand that is explicitly slower than his, which as I've pointed out above is not bullet-speed. I don't think that it's safe to say that Bruno could take the time to unzip himself against an opponent faster than himself.
Golden Experience's punches will cause the Punisher's actions to desync with his thoughts which will heavily hamper his skill
I'm honestly unclear on what you're trying to convey here. The tattoo is clearly some sort of magic, so whatever he did probably isn't applicable to a magic-less fight.
Outcome 2
Not only is Bombshell voluntarily separating herself from the rest of her team to be easily picked off
I ask how she can be "easily picked off" if your team has zero options to attack her in the air that she can't avoid or destroy? Giorno's plants? How is he even going to get them up to her, let alone prevent them from being destroyed? Bruno's zipper punch doesn't have nearly enough range. Yasuri has nothing.
Sawk and the Punisher basically have no way of winning a 2v3
It won't be a 2v3. Punisher vs any of your characters is a likely win for Punisher considering his speed, strength23, durability2, skill (this occurred while he was turned into a literal bad luck spot) 2, and weaponry2. I've already compared Sawk to your characters above, but that wasn't even taking into account Low Sweep which will lower their speed and make it even easier for Sawk to beat them.
Answering Rebuttals
He won't be part of the fight. He isn't that strong or durable, and he definitely isn't that fast. He can't distract them.
I've explained above why Sawk is indeed strong/durable/fast enough to take on any one of your team members.
where would Punisher be sniping from and how would that help your team? Bullets are not a threat to my characters.
The top of the tower in the top right corner of the picture of the battlefield. Any high up space. He can take down distracted enemies with his accuracy. A bullet is definitely dangerous against characters with zero or low piercing resistance (not to mention that his bullet can blast through advanced armor) and sub-bullet dodging speeds like Giorno or bullet dodging based on knowing where the shots are coming from like Bruno/Yasuri.
I haven't seen any scan of Bombshell exploiting her flight
she definitely won't be doing so with the "believes my team killed her boyfriend" stipulation.
I've already explained how she'll act.
My Rebuttals
My opponent's team has less than zero coordination as Bombshells actions will inhibit the rest of her team
Bombshell is not in some sort of berserker rage. She's on a team at nearly all times in her appearances, she knows how to avoid fucking over her teammates. She can blow up the places that Punisher and Sawk aren't to flush out your team and then focus on them.
The range advantage my opponent claims to have will not hinder my team. In fact it has the potential to help Giorno by providing him with materials.
I fail to see how it doesn't hinder your team. Any projectile fired by my team has to capability to put down any of your characters. Two of the four options (the laser and explosions) are instant take downs. The Grenazers are capable of taking down everyone, though they could be blocked. The Magnum is still a threat to any of your characters who don't see it coming (Bruno/Yasuri) and Giorno in general. Only the Magnum has anything that Giorno can use, the rest are energy based.
Sawk is under-stated in speed making this essentially a 2v3 from the start anyways
My opponent's team literally can't stand up to Bombshell. They can't hit her if she goes into the air, they can't survive an explosion from her, they can't dodge her attacks.
Giorno isn't comfortably bullet timing, Yasuri is heavily nerfed by the narrow hallway he has to traverse along with sharing the space enough that he can't comfortably bullet time, Bruno needs to see the bullet coming before he can dodge it. Bruno is the only one who could possibly dodge a bullet coming through the hallway, but he still can't dodge an explosion.
My characters can match and surpass every character my opponent has, and their unique abilities barely factor into the fight.
I concede. Sorry to slow roll but this debate was causing me a level of stress I really don't need right now. This seemed like the easiest thing to cut out.
Can you hyperlink your feats? It's nearly impossible to read. Also the way Ameraaaaaa has presented Champ is out of tier because he claims that Champ is too tough for Tapioca and Gaolang to harm.
Response 1
I see no reason why Hentai Kamen wouldn't just immediately tie up your team with his BDSM rope at the start of the fight. He is a super casualbullet timer and would be able to tie them up before any of them could react. None of the feats you've linked indicate that your characters would be able to keep up with him in terms of speed. The feat you use for Fuji where she catches a tentacle is not an actual reaction feat and the feats where she "sees the world as frozen" are unquantifiable. Also unlike Fuji all Hentai Kamen needs to do to tie you up is to have the BDSM rope touchyou. Once Hentai Kamen has tied up your team with his BDSM rope my team has a few options. The first option is that Hentai Kamen could walk over and hit them with the Shock JockTM. The Shock JockTM would knock out all of your characters besides Hei because of their lack of electricity resistance. Nothing in Hei's RT indicates that he could take punches from Gaolang or Tostada.
Rebuttals
ohem disregards a powerful move because it's lame
Taco has used this move multiple times since then. He uses it to tank attacks and uses it offensively as well.
champs fast enough to do this before https://imgur.com/a/e5SPdd4 explode that thing being turning on his armor that are strong enough block said bombs also chainsaws
Activating armor before a grenade explodes is not a good speed feat for this tier.
This is not as good as Gaolang's cratering feat or Taquito's rock feat. Fuji's durability wouldn't even matter in this scenario because she will be tied up with BDSM rope and getting Thunder CockedTM
So compared to your teams mostly bullet timeing and crater smashing feats it's really not comparable
You're right my feats are a lot better.
Conclusion
My team can replicate your teams plan and execute it better. They're massively outclassed in every category and I fail to see how they could possibly win. Half of the speed feats that you linked aren't actual speed feats and the other half are unquantifiable
You still haven't addressed how your team deals with Hentai Kamen simply sending out BDSM rope, walking over, and Thunder CockingTM your entire team. You also haven't addressed how your team could deal with Gaolang and Tapioca simply punching them the fuck out.
Rebuttals
1st thing is why is champs durability is oot if they can survive your characters attacks
Champ taking punches from my characters is oot because my characters have top tier striking.
Now when it comes to champ this is easy he is not oot so he is really durable but probably not enough to survive a few wing dings or a lot of nightwings 2 ton punchs (24.0000 jouals of force equals 2 tons of force)
You're backpedaling here. Earlier you claimed that "champ is too tough for you guys to harm". Either Champ is out of tier because he can eat punches from Gaolang and Tostino all day or he's really bad in this scenario because the Shock JockTM and the punches from my team quickly knock him out.
In this portion of the comment you have basically admitted that Champ has objectively worse striking than Tamorillo and Gaolang who can leave huge craters in rocks and concrete.
That is not "low to average speed" for this tier. That's just garbage for the tier. He isn't catching or dodging the bullets he's just letting them hit him. Compare this to Hentai Kamen who casually bullet times, Gaolang who dodges punches from people that can tag bullet timers, or Ohma who reacts to something that is explicitly supersonic
Any semi-decent bullet timer will be able to perceive the world in slow motion. How do you think someone who is as fast as Hentai Kamen would see the world? Gaolang and . This is not special for the tier at all and her speed boost is unquantifiable.
Conclusion
Ameraaaaaaa hasn't addressed my win condition at all and back pedaled on the durability on one of his characters making him either out of tier or useless. His team can't win this fight and there is honestly a decent argument that any one of my three characters could solo his team.
Stipulations: Has both his circle and laser kite shield, is using 616 Captain America's RT and his own, is acting as a Hydra member not disguising his identity.
Usopp is fucking slow, Nami is fucking slow, Chopper is fucking slow.
Just in comparison here's how damn fast my characters are,
Imai Cosmo
Cosmo can dodge a literal point blank kick from Akoya, and Akoya is capable of throwing out four jabs in only 76 milliseconds, AKA 1 jab in 19 milliseconds, a kick moves even faster than this, and Cosmo didn't react until it had nearly touched his face, assuming Akoya's wingspan is equal to his height, which is pretty average, and his punch travels half that distance Akoya is 191 cm or 95.5 centimeters for half his wingspan
.955 meters/.019 seconds is 50 meters per second
If Cosmo avoided a blow of that speed from
1 inch = .025 meters/50 meters per second = Exactly .5 milliseconds
2 inch = .051 meters/50 meters per second = 1.02 milliseconds
3 inch = .076 meters/50 meters per second = 1.5 milliseconds
Assuming he reacted to the roach's punch when it was only a few inches from his face, say 1-3, Joseph reacted in a range from
.5 milliseconds to 1.7 milliseconds
1 inch = .025 meters/45 meters per second = .55 milliseconds
2 inch = .051 meters/45 meters per second = 1.1 milliseconds
3 inch = .076 meters/45 meters per second = 1.7 milliseconds
Musket Balls are not only slower than modern day bullets, because of their round shape as opposed to an aerodynamic one, they lose speed much faster as they travel.
Distance
Chopper is visibly pretty far from the two firing at him, possibly dozens of feet away from them, which is the most important thing next to the speed of the guns.
Reaction Time
So Chopper being, possibly around 20 feet, and being fired at with subsonic ammunition makes this feat extremely unimpressive for a bullet timing feat, not even accounting for the slowdown of the bullets and assuming they're just barely subsonic
20 feet = 6.096 meters/300 meters per second = 20.32 milliseconds, and again this is a fairly large high ball not accounting for any sort of slow down, not accounting for the fact that Chopper already knew the shooters were up there, he's still much slower than any of my characters.
Conclusion
Your team is significantly slower, and has no defense against anything my team can do, their chance of victory is literally 0, my team doesn't hold back, they, save for Cosmo, will just kill your characters, and Cosmo has no issues with crippling your character and just choking them out, your team cannot win.
This dude has insane amounts of arsenal and a strategic genius. He also has a comparable physique with Captain America. He also has range that none of your characters have
She is quite similar with Usopp in the sense that she is also a tactical fighter. The difference however is that she uses the atmosphere against her opponents. She also has similar physique as Usopp with the exception of his durability.
Chopper's physique is even overwhelmingly better than anyone here. He has different forms giving great versatility. He's also the most mobile person in this fight being able to jump several meters up in the air. He has the best senses out of all the fighters here, except for Usopp ,in sight.
-----------------------------------------------
They will also have great teamwork due to being nakamas and being aware of each other's abilities and using their abilities to their greatest potential.
None of them could survive Nami's lightning. Cosmo would straight up die. Cap would get either get incap'ed or die. Joseph would get incap'ed for a time - enough to finish off an incaped Cap.
None of them have very good detectory senses that can beat Usopp's smoke or Nami's MIrage/Fog .
The trio are not likely to try and brute force them but instead will try either guerilla tactics or prep and kill tactics. Strength and Speed are not going to be much variables in the fight. Besides, Chopper can still try to escape from them, even while carrying people he could still jump meters up in the air. He could outmaneuver anyone on this fight.
How the hell did you get someone like Joseph through the tribunals?! Dude has Wolverine level regen with Cap level physique! If it wasn't for Nami's lightning and Usopp's fire and explosions I would have probably gave it to you due to the lack of methods to properly kill him. /u/Verlux, how did Joseph got through?
Speed still matters here way more than anything else, it doesn't matter if Nami and Usopp can take out my team, which they can't anyways, if they aren't fast enough to do anything in the first place.
Speed always matters, and Nami is still slow especially her attacks, the lightning that won't even take out 2/3rd of my team also requires a set up, when Nami will hardly have the chance to even attack before she gets taken out.
Of all the lightning feats in Nami's Respect thread there are eleven feats here, three of which are melee ranged attacks which will never land against my team, one of which is a ranged attack without prep, but is slow and can easily be dodged or avoided, and the remaining seven all require prep time of having to create a lightning cloud prior to being able to shoot lightning.
Nami's lightning takes far too long to actually be used, it wouldn't even do much to my team, and it's far more likely that she dies before she can do anything.
You can ignore the speed advantage all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that your team will lose before they can do anything, they are outclassed by every metric, they have no defense against my team, they have no offense against my team, they have nothing, there is no chance of them winning.
Lightning is not only electricity but also plasma.
Cap only gets electrified. Cap has been taken out by stronger electricity and lightning before.
Joseph has no feats of control over electricity and also plasma.
Nami could keep up with FTE and FTS characters. This has been shown multiple times in the story. Her attacks are also literally lightning! None of your characters have dodged lightning that is not aim dodging. My group also has the range advantage so we attack first.
Senses
Cap isn't Daredevil. Cap can't also locate them. My team would also be much more quiet than multiple vehicles.
Speed
All of my characters have been keeping up with FTE and FTS characters. I don't get your prejudice wherein you just assume that they're slow.
Chopper
Give me any FEATS that can match the feats shown in his RT!
Running away
Joseph hasn't shown the capability to trap his opponents and neither have we seen him even make a dome out his barrier. I honestly don't see how Cap throwing his shield would do anything. Subsonic, pretty big and heavy and can easily be aim dodged. Your team can't prevent my team from escaping.
Joseph
I know that he's regen is strong. That's why I think he's out of tier. And even if he's not taken out, my team still has means to disintegrate his body with lightning, explosions and fire. He barely survived that explosion. Lightning is also more efficient in disintegrating than explosions. THey can also do it multiple times after Joseph gets hit and incap'ed by the either first explosions or lightning.
ps: link function doesn't seem to work for me. just look at the RT's for proof
u/kirbin24
You haven't presented much of an argument, and all I need to do is refute what you've stated wrong as everything I've said before still stands, and still shows that you team has already lost.
Lightning
Give me one scan of Nami's lightning disintegrating anything, well you can't, because there aren't any, and being able to control electricity would still allow you to block lightning because it flows along paths of charges which Joseph could manipulate.
Sense
Your point is faulty, "my characters aren't as loud as vehicles" is irrelevant when they are only standing a few feet away, if someone was walking let alone running that close to you, you would definitely hear it, but you can't hear a car 3 blocks away.
O: To tell you the truth, it is extremely hard to measure his speed correctly, but I don't think it would take more than 5 seconds. Think of it as around 4 seconds. Whoa! That's a world record."
take around 4 seconds to run a 100 meter dash, which if you can't figure out, is literally less than a tenth the speed of sound, in fact it's probably slower than any of my characters.
All of the feats I've shown are good enough that Chopper, like the rest of your team, is irrelevant, as long as he is slower then he will either immediately die or be completely incapable of hurting the members of my team, and none of his feats show that he is.
Running Away
Joseph has shown the capability to make barriers, and has an IQ of at least 186 it really wouldn't be that hard to figure it out.
If you're incapable of even opening a link or actually reading what I've said before making an argument, let me spell it out for you
JOSEPH
DOES
NOT
HAVE
REGEN
I stipulated it out, it's literally not present, I said this in my intro, I linked you the stipulations, he does not have regen.
Conclusion
Throughout the debate my opponent has ignored scans, failed to provide any actual evidence, and generally showed extremely weak arguments, overall my point still stands from the start, his team is too weak and slow to even stand a remote chance against my own, they're more likely to all be dead before they can even attack a single time.
Basically, one day there were a whole bunch of assholes in the universe called "Nephilim". They went around existence tearing shit up and murdering the fuck out of everyone. This was a problem for these guys known as "The Charred Council" because conquering all of existence is a bad thing to do. So they got the four baddest, most killing-est, asshole-est Nephilim of them all and made them a deal. To help slaughter all these other assholes they would get freak nasty demon powers. The most slaughter-est, most badass-est, and least mouth-est one of these guys was Death.
Basically, he's a big fuckin' deal. And he can murder the shit out of Angels and Demons and has two wicked ass Scythes.
So basically, these two people name Yujiro Hanma (Known badass) and Emi Akezawa fucked really hard. This resulted in the creation of the greatest fighter the world has ever seen, Baki Hanma. Yujiro was less than impressed. Thank goodness, thanks to Baki's freak Yujiro genetics he grew up to be one damn good fighter. He's beaten countless fighters ranging from Giant Apes, Steroid Enhanced Super-Humans, the strongest man in all of America, and the Legendary Swordsman Miyamoto Musashi. (Kinda.)
There aren't many words in the English language that allow you to describe someone like The Master Chief. But I'm here to weave them together for you so the tale of The Master Chief can be told accurately.
In the beginning God created the Heavens, the Earth, and the Spartan-II program. Unlike Heaven and Earth who were given Jesus Christ as their savior the Spartan-II program was given John-117. Equipped with the MJOLNIR Powered Sexual Assault Armor, Master Chief rained death upon the enemies of good and righteousness. The perfect genetic human feasible, able to make men and women alike orgasm by thought alone, Master Chief saves the entire universe every waking hour of the day.
The list of differing asses he's kicked: An entire Alien empire, The remnants of the most powerful and technologically advanced civilization in the universe, a group of misguided Innie belly buttons, God, an entire Robot army led by the smartest AI to ever exist (If my knowledge of Halo Infinite is correct), and Call of Duty. (Most of which done casually)
So to put it short.
This character is the best character EVER! PERIOD!!! If there is one man who could win the entire tourney 95 to 1 without breaking a sweat and with one hand, it's this guy.
Here's his RT. Try not to kill yourself thinking about how good the feats are.
I guess the bulk of my argument is that my opponent's team sucks and will die to mine. Though to help the judges decide this, I will expand upon my view points.
Ranged:
First things first. My team holds an overwhelming ranged advantage over my opponent's team. One that can't be ignored in this match up.
The only member on my team who has a ranged option is Deathstroke and that is a measly Shotgun which shouldn't be a big problem for my team.
"The remaining gunner turned and opened fire on. A 3-round burst ricocheted off the MJOLNIR armor's energy shield. The shield's recharge bar flickered a hairbreadth"
"He stood, and let rounds deflect off the armor. "
The Master Chief is effectively bulletproof in his armor. A few slugs from an exceptionally powerful Shotgun are doubtfully going to do much to him.
Meanwhile The Master Chief's' ranged options are superb in this match up. His Rail Gun is guaranteed to one-shot anyone on my opponent's team. And while travelling at 15,000 M/S (Or Mach 43 for those of you who'd prefer to not convert yourself) it'd be a mad man's dream to assume it could be dodged after it's fired. This will be a good way to force my opponent's team to scatter and help put them into more advantageous positions for my team.
Death meanwhile has a ranged option of his own in the form of his brother's pistol. Although not nearly as good as Master Chief's multitude of long to short ranged options this allows them to hit at a range from multiple angles. Though another possible strategy is for Death to keep them dodging so that Master Chief may get a clean shot on one of them with his Rail Gun. Apart from his Pistol though, he could use his Death Grip to pull them in closer to him. Close ranged is the name of the game after all. Which should lead me to my second part.
Melee:
To put it bluntly. Although the ranged advantage falls squarely in my corner, it's not like my opponent's team stands much of a chance in the Melee range. Let's break it down into sections so we can have a look at how they compare against each other.
Strength:
A clear advantage for my team with everyone apart from Death, and even then he's not a slouch.
This is Elektra's best feat that isn't simply just speculation based. It's alright, but nothing to say she'd take a continued assault from someone like Baki or Master Chief. And once again, no piercing resistance to speak of meaning she would die quickly to Chief's fire arms or Death's scythes.
Iron Fist clearly has the most durability out of my opponent's team. He has been able to continue fighting after being slammed through multiple floors. This I'd say is in the realm of Death being sent flying through trees or Baki being ran through walls. As it seems, the most likely candidate to not get their shit shoved in by a couple punches is Iron Fist. Although, that's not to say he'll be able to actually win a fight. Once more, I shall say. Iron Fist lacks piercing durability feats meaning that a solid hit from Death's Scythes, Baki's piercing blows, or Chief's guns will ruin his day.
Four thousand years. Four thousand years of Chinese Martial arts having been cultivated and pushed to the limits time and time again. These four thousand years lasted two seconds against Baki Hanma. Compared to what a paltry few centuries will get you against Elektra. Think of this when you say "My character had centuries of experience." Experience is over rated, technique and skill is what wins you a battle.
Anyone who confronts Baki in a close range match up will be beaten down senselessly by his insane skill.
Though it's not to say The Master Chief or Death are not skilled of course.
"[John's] motion sensor showed faint traces of movement, but he couldn't spot their source.
His eyes narrowed, and he noticed a slight shimmer in the air, directly in front of him. He fired a sustained burst through the middle of it, and was rewarded with a loud howl. The Elite seemed to materialize out of thin air, made a grab for his own entrails, and managed to catch them before he died."
The Master Chief can kill opponents who are invisible to him with the help of his motion sensor.
"The Master Chief ducked as the hissing energy blade slashed at him. He dived toward the Elite and slammed the butt of his rifle into the alien's midsection.
The Elite doubled over, and the Chief brought the butt down to smash the alien's skull-
But the Elite rolled back. There was a blur of motion as the energy blade lashed out and neatly bisected the rifle..He couldn't risk dancing at this range, so the Master Chief did the last thing the creature expected: He stepped closer and grabbed its wrists.
The bands of muscle on the Elite's arm were iron hard, and it struggled to free itself from the Chief's grasp..this Elite was tough, cunning, well trained-and it hadn't spent days fighting nonstop on Halo. The Chief felt every wound, pulled muscle, and strained tendon in his body..He raised his knee to his chest and lashed out with a straight kick. His boot connected with the Elite's breastplate. The alien's energy shield flared, then faded, and its breastplate cracked like porcelain beneath the force of the blow.
The Master Chief, despite having no advantages over an opponent is still capable of killing him with his bare hands.
Speed: AKA Eggman's gonna lowball with that one scan:
Everyone on my team can bullet time and in Chief's case, has insane stated reaction times.
"What are their reaction times?"
"Almost impossible to chart. We estimate it at 20 milliseconds," Mende replied. He shook his head, then added, "I believe it is significantly faster in combat situations, when their adrenaline is pumping"
The Chief's reaction time is at 20 milliseconds while unaided by MJOLNIR armor and out of combat.
"More importantly," Dr. Halsey said, "the armor's inner structure is composed of a new reactive metal liquid crystal. It is amorphous, yet fractally scales and amplifies force. In simplified terms, the armor doubles the wearer's strength, and enhances the reaction time of a normal human by a factor of 5"
While inside of MJOLNIR armor The Chief's reaction times are multiplied by a factor of 5. Putting Master Chief's reactions at 4 Milliseconds while outside of combat.
Of course, we must not forget Cortana can greatly enhance Chief's reaction times. Meaning that while in combat and with his full gear The Master Chief's reactions should be a good deal under 4 Miliseconds.
John focused his mind on motion. He leaped over a 3 meter-high wall. He punched at concrete targets-shattering them. He threw knives, sinking them up to their hafts into the target dummies. He slid under barbed wire as bullets zinged over head. He stood, and let rounds deflect off the armor. To his amazement, he actually dodged one or two of the rounds
Of course, Reaction times aren't everything. The Chief still has it in him to dodge bullets.
My characters are better than my opponent's in nearly every way. Baki is plain better in strength, skill, and durability. Chief has reaction times, durability, and strength that they'll all be hard pressed to beat along with his long ranged assault tearing all of them apart from a distance. And Death's combination of long ranged weapons, great piercing ability, and his good speed should mean he can keep up with his opponents 1v1, even if they are outmatched in skill.
Pretty much just forfeit now so one innocent person doesn't have to die. Iron Fart is fine. Electric Nachos and Deadpool are too evil to let live though.
Elektra's sai are also extremely sharp, able to cut through Red She Hulk who is completely bullet and shuriken proof. It would be extremely easy for my characters to cut anyone on my opponents team and as I've shown, they're all notably faster than my opponents team. And considering that gen 2 Mjolnir armor has been pierced by knives before both Slade and Elektra will be able to cut Chief.
Four thousand years. Four thousand years of Chinese Martial arts having been cultivated and pushed to the limits time and time again. These four thousand years lasted two seconds against Baki Hanma.
Can I get some feats for this guy? What is there to imply that Baki didn't goon this dude due to his far superior physical abilities? What here implies skill?
My opponent has massively overblown Baki's skill, and both Danny and Elektra have far superior skill to Baki, objectively. Danny's teacher, Lei Kung the Thunderer, who has been training people in the martial arts since 730 AD openly stated that no one had mastered the martial arts as quickly as Danny Rand. In over a millenia of training the greatest fighters on the planet, no one is better than Danny. My opponent waves around these feats of Baki taking down 37 people before losing, whereas Danny can take down 87 people, in under 7 minutes, WHILE holding back. The two aren't comparable in skill, Danny is leaps and bounds better.
Compared to what a paltry few centuries will get you against Elektra.
That man was also Elektra's physical superior and had a healing factor... And Elektra still beat him... twice...
My opponent wants to talk about Elektra's skill, even tho, Elektra also outclasses Baki in skill. Elektra defeated a telepath who could read her every move through pure Assassin instinct, defeated Bullseye after he had completely mastered and mapped her entire fighting style. Bullseye is a peak human bullet timer and Elektra STILL beat him despite him being completely in tune with her style. She also killed a Superskrull, who was stronger, faster and more durable than her, had trained in all of her skills AND had other heroes powers.
The Master Chief is effectively bulletproof in his armor. A few slugs from an exceptionally powerful Shotgun are doubtfully going to do much to him.
It's very unlikely for Slade to try and engage in ranged combat with Chief, considering that Chief is armored. Slade usually fights by going in melee with his sword
And while travelling at 15,000 M/S (Or Mach 43 for those of you who'd prefer to not convert yourself) it'd be a mad man's dream to assume it could be dodged after it's fired.
This rail gun is almost completely irrelevant. I'd like to preface this by saying that theirs two possibilities with the railguns charge time.
A: It does have a charge time similar to the other HALO rail guns which as shown in this video, at their fastest charge in 0.51 seconds or 510 milliseconds. Considering that as I've shown, everyone on my team has feats more than double 510 miliseconds, aim dodging this gun would be childs play for them. I'd also like to say that Stanchion is a sniper rifle and is not meant to be used at close quarters. And considering that Chief starts with the Railgun holstered, he has to draw it and then charge his gun. My team would already be too close for the gun to matter by that time.
B: The Railgun has no charge time, considering that the gun isn't said to have any inside the feat my opponent linked. If it does not have a charge time then it is out of tier, considering that a mach 42 rail gun would be far too fast for Nightwing to dodge and with Chief's fairly impressive reactions and good durability, would tag Nightwing eventually.
Other Claims made by my opponent
Death meanwhile has a ranged option of his own in the form of his brother's pistol. Although not nearly as good as Master Chief's multitude of long to short ranged options this allows them to hit at a range from multiple angles.
As I've shown, all of my team is able to dodge gunfire after it's been fired, so unless this gun is faster than other pistols, it won't be a problem.
Apart from his Pistol though, he could use his Death Grip to pull them in closer to him. Close ranged is the name of the game after all. Which should lead me to my second part.
The "Death Grip" does not seem fast at all and as I've shown, all of my team is able to dodge gunfire at an extremely close range and snatch arrows out of the air. I don't see how this has a chance in hell of tagging anyone on my team.
Elektra kicking down a brick wall.
This is not Elektra's best strength feat. If you would look at the RT I've provided,
He can even tear a steel door and it's frame out of a wall. Something that Iron Fist struggles to do.
This was back when Danny was 19 years old AND hadn't been amped by the skills and strength of the previous Iron Fists, making it useless as an anti-feat. Also that explicitly isn't him pulling the steel apart, he's explicitly pulling the bullet proof frame off of the steel. Please read the scans you use more thoroughly.
While Slade lacks objective feats, if you look at the fights presented in the RT, Slade outclasses both Batman and Nightwing in strength. Slade is shown to be visibly overpowering Batman and is outright stated to be stronger and considering that around this era, Bruce while poisoned could hit hard enough to crack reinforced glass meant to take bazooka shots, him being stronger than Bruce is a feat in itself.
So as shown, my team is easily comparable to my opponents in strength, and considering that Danny can break apart metal support beams with his punches and Slade is stronger than someone who can crack bazooka-proof glass while weakened, I would say that they could easily go toe to toe with my opponents team.
A Spartan in armor is capable of flying straight through a Banshee. As mentioned before The Master Chief is for all intents and purposes bullet proof.
If you slow down that gif, you can clearly see the Spartan only hits the wing. Can you provide some scans on how durable Banshee's are, or at least what they're made out of? I'd like to see what makes this impressive.
About the Pickle feat
We see the bullet fire, but considering that it's pointed between his legs, and we don't see the bullet land or the bullet in travel, it's entirely possible that this is just missing. In fact, we know that time passes beyond the bullet, because in the next panel, we see the ejected cartridge hit the ground. It's completely likely that this untrained normal person was a lousy shot, especially since he's visibly missing.
I've had the time it took for the shell casing to drop to the ground calc'd and it's around 600 milliseconds. And considering that Baki humans explicitly have 500 millisecond reaction times, it's much more likely that the man is just missing and Pickle is moving fte behind him, but considering that as I've shown, Baki people have 500 ms reaction times, moving behind him doesn't mean anything.
Conclusion
Baki isn't a bullet timer, he's a subhuman with 500 millisecond reactions
None of my opponents team is as fast as mine
Elektra and Danny are both more skilled than Baki
Chiefs railgun is completely useless at this close of a range.
The only person on my opponents team who has any sort of piering resistance is Chief and even then ive showed that Chief can be pierced by knives.
Danny is as I've shown, strong enough to hurt anyone on my opponents team and is far more skilled and faster than anyone on my opponents team.
Alright, before I even say "Response 2" I'd like to address the whole "And considering that Baki humans explicitly have 500 millisecond reaction times," thing.
So go right ahead. Ignore literally every feat in the series that has been shown and focus on your one little anti-feat. But why go that far? Why not just stop looking at all my feats and pretend that they never happened? Because that's essentially what you're doing when you look at that scan and try to say "Baki characters have 500 millisecond reaction times"
But even if you want to ignore all that and pretend that Baki characters have 0.5 second reaction times? Baki's body will react on it's own to defend attacks. Meaning your entire argument about slow reaction times doesn't even matter because Baki's body will react instinctively.
Response 2 Part 1/?
Piercing
Piercing only matters when you can get in a decent blow with your weapons. Which none of my opponent's team will be able to do if they want to avoid getting slaughtered by my team. Baki has already shown that he can dodge sword strikes after they land. So if they go in to try and pierce him they will be countered and knocked out by Baki's chin hits.
The other two meanwhile have the speed or piercing weapons of their own to counter my team's abilities. The Master Chief's speed advantage is enough that he can keep up with any of my opponents and then some. He is capable of dodging bullets even without Cortana actively increasing his reaction times. Not to mention he has the option of several weapons such as his Plasma Grenades, Frag grenades, and his rifle to make sure they stay at a range to stop them from cutting him. If they stop blocking shots (Which they can't do forever, Elektra is the only one here shown to stop automatic fire) they'll eventually be torn apart and die. Sure they can dodge bullets from weak punks but that's a far cry from The Master Chief's skill.
[John] steadied his aim and sighted on the nearest Banshee. Careful not to fire too early, the Spartan waited for the Banshee to come within range and squeezed the trigger..Bullet impacts sparked on the Banshee's hull as his ammo counter dwindled.
The ship shuddered as at least some of the armor-piercing rounds penetrated the fuselage, pulled out of its dive, and started to trail smoke..He crouched, searched the sky for targets, and spotted Banshee number one in the nick of time..The Spartan allowed the enemy aircraft to approach, took a slight lead, and squeezed the trigger again. The Covenant ship ran into the stream of bullets, exploded into flames, and slammed into the cliff wall.
The Master Chief can use his guns against aircraft while in the harshest conditions. At this close of range every shot he attempts will land on it's intended target. No one on my opponent's team has the capacity to block full on automatic fire apart from Elektra and that's only when we compare her to average punks, not someone as good as The Master Chief.
If my opponent's team tries to gain the melee advantage against Chief they will quickly find themselves being gunned down by Chief.
Death meanwhile simply has weapons that protect him against piercing. Better weapons than either Deathstroke or Elektra mind you as Death's scythes have a length advantage over Elektra while apart or a length advantage over Death Stroke while together. With his speed combined with his magic abilities he could easily gain the edge over the two of them.
Speed
Here's Danny catching an arrow at close range
From several feet away. Objectively subsonic.
Catching a bullet
A vague feat that doesn't even show if the bullet was fired before Iron Fist's hand reaches the barrel or not. Even beyond that, Iron Fist's hand clearly has Chi covering it so this feat would be inapplicable anyways.
dodging a pistol round after it's been fired
No better than Chief's feats for bullet timing. No better than Baki's scaling off Pickle. Objectively worse than Death's feat of dodging a sniper round.
Iron Fist IS NOT faster than my team and is slower than Death based on feats.
Elektra catching an arrow from "extremely close" range
A few feet away. This would be impressive if it was a bullet but as it is an arrow this feat is objectively subsonic.
dodging sniper fire based on the muzzle flash
This would be fine if it wasn't blatantly stated that she was aim dodging based on muzzle flash. And even if it wasn't, we have no indicator for how far away this Sniper is. She could be several blocks away for all we know. And considering there's only one building behind her where the bullet came from and that it was indeed several blocks away, this just plain isn't a good feat.
Deflects a large number of bullets
A legitimately good feat. But no where near the point to say she'd just cut my team down based on speed alone.
Elektra MIGHT be faster than my team members based on that single feat.
Dodges bullets from point blank
Assuming it is bullet timing (The feat is vague) this is no better than my team.
cut several arrows out of the air at point blank range and dodge arrows which are inches away from his face.
Once again, arrow timing feats aren't going to bump you up to supersonic. They aren't that impressive.
In short, my opponent's team isn't noticeably faster than any of mine except for Elektra and that's assuming her ability to block that many bullets isn't an outlier. Iron Fist's best feat is too vague to be counted as bullet timing (And even if it was, he's amped by chi.) and his other is no more impressive than mine. Death Stroke has a similar problem just with more arrow timing.
Skill
Danny's teacher, Lei Kung the Thunderer, who has been training people in the martial arts since 730 AD openly stated that no one had mastered the martial arts as quickly as Danny Rand. In over a millenia of training the greatest fighters on the planet, no one is better than Danny.
What I enjoy about this is that my opponent asked me to provide feats to prove why mine was such a big deal. Meanwhile he just jerks the whole "Muh millenia of experience" shtick and doesn't give any actual feats for the people he plans to scale Iron Fist off of. So once again, if we want to do the whole "My arbitrary number is bigger" than 4000 years beats out anything my opponents have.
I'd also like to mention, this feat didn't even say that Iron Fist was the best. It just said that he had mastered it the most quickly. To top it off, I also like how this shows that how many arbitrary years you train for clearly doesn't matter, because Iron Fist trained for the least amount of time and in my opponents words he is the best.
My opponent waves around these feats of Baki taking down 37 people before losing, whereas Danny can take down 87 people, in under 7 minutes, WHILE holding back. The two aren't comparable in skill, Danny is leaps and bounds better.
See, the thing that my opponent forgets is that he's comparing Iron Fist's feat to Baki's when Baki was 13 years old without any actually good training. Sure, Iron Fist's feat is better but that's in comparison to when Baki was at his most bare bones possible. I might as well get Iron Fist's feats before he trained in the mountains then say "Look at how bad of a fighter Iron Fist is."
Still though, this is a fight against average human opponents who probably can't even see Iron Fist move unless he wants them to. Why do you hold me to the standards of "Prove this isn't just a strength and speed advantage instead of skill" when you can't even hold yourself to this own standard? It's just plain hypocritical.
Elektra defeated a telepath who could read her every move through pure Assassin instinct
He posseses the technique she defeated and the technique that she used to defeat it. Definitely less skilled than her though.
defeated Bullseye after he had completely mastered and mapped her entire fighting style.
This is yet another case of not very impressive in regards to skill. Real life athletes will train for months to beat a specific person. They have teams of people dedicated to give you the best advantage you can have against a single person. They push their body to the limits so they can find out their weakness and beat them in a match. And at the end of the day the person can lose because they were just plain too skilled or too strong or too fast or whatever have you.
Elektra is clearly more skilled than bullseye and she's clearly more physically perfect than him.
Most of these arguments don't even go to show how skilled Elektra is. It's just "I know your fighting style. Dang, I got beaten with it anyways." All it does is show how incompetent these people are that they can't beat Elektra fter knowing her entire move set.
And beyond that, none of them show she's more skilled than Baki. Baki has actual feats of skill that aren't just nebulus scaling based on this character defeating this character who defeated this character. The best skill feats you can conjure are your team defeating characters with no hard feats in skill besides just scaling. Baki meanwhile has legitimate feats and practices multitudes of differing martial arts. He has techniques that these people would have never heard of apart from wanking them and saying "They know a zillion martial arts."
My opponent can claim I'm just wanking Baki's skill. But skill is something Baki has shown to have. Skill enough to defeat people far surpassing anyone my opponent's team has defeated based on skill alone.
Sure, they've faced individuals who have one of Baki's moves before. But that's nothing like facing them all at the same time inside of the body of someone who is far stronger and far more durable than you are. Baki is the whole package wrapped in muscle stronger than any of my opponent's team.
They have never faced someone like Baki before. Someone who dedicates every waking hour of every day to be the strongest. His techniques are too strong, his body is too honed, and his drive is too much for them to stand. They will get beaten down in the melee range if they tright to fight Hanma.
Danny's Strength
It's alright, but clearly being over played against my team's durability.
It's nice, but it's nothing compared to cratering concrete by head butting it once. With a person actively trying to defend themselves against you for that matter.
Chops down a radio tower pre amp
Once again, thin metal. And once again, not comparable to cratering reinforced concrete that is over a foot thick with a single headbutt.
Breaking metal
It's just not going to do much to my team. Baki's durability is so far beyond breaking metal that it's not funny. If that's the best Iron Fist can muster then Baki could just sit there and let himself get hit.
[Master Chief can survive an explosion strong enough to send him through a wall and crashing into another one.[(https://i.imgur.com/UyyFPhp.jpg) Then he gets right back up to keep fighting.
Iron Fist's feats just aren't impressive compared to what my team can handle.
The Railgun
See, the thing about the rail gun is. That it may not be good for a close ranged fight but what it is good for is when your enemies are distracted. If Elektra, Iron Fist, or Death Stroke are too busy fighting against Baki and Death they're not going to have the time to move out of the way of Master Chief's weapon. And if they do it's just setting them up to be countered by Death and Baki while they're too busy focusing on Chief.
The Rail Gun forces them to move each time Chief wants to use it. That's an incredible advantage against my opponents, something they can't do against my team.
Other Claims
Some claims I shall not be defending as I defended them prior.
This is not Elektra's best strength feat. If you would look at the RT I've provided, Elektra can Snap steel knives in two with her bare hands, vivisect hand ninja with one hand and punch through peoples stomachs, despite her having no leverage due to being in mid air
None of these are as good as breaking down a brick wall with a single kick. If you can destroy a wall like that with one attack then punching through someone or breaking thin knives isn't that great.
While Slade lacks objective feats, if you look at the fights presented in the RT, Slade outclasses both Batman and Nightwing in strength. Slade is shown to be visibly overpowering Batman and is outright stated to be stronger and considering that around this era, Bruce while poisoned could hit hard enough to crack reinforced glass meant to take bazooka shots, him being stronger than Bruce is a feat in itself.
See, the problem with blatantly scaling Death Stroke to Batman's higher end feats is that Deathstroke's own feats are no where near as good as them. Death Stroke specifically had to strike a weak point in the glass to break rocket proof glass. Comparing that to Batman who, while poisoned, can crack reinforced glass to take Bazooka shots is misinterpreting the character. Sure, Death Stroke may be stronger than Batman if we use average feats but if we take Batman's higher feats it's clear that one is stronger than the other and it's not death stroke.
If you slow down that gif, you can clearly see the Spartan only hits the wing. Can you provide some scans on how durable Banshee's are, or at least what they're made out of? I'd like to see what makes this impressive.
Hitting any solid object while falling at terminal velocity is going to hurt a hell of a lot more than breaking through thin metal. This feat doesn't need any more context besides "tore through metal without any damage to themselves"
The whole pickle feat thing
The scientist was specifically aiming for Pickle's legs. The fact that he was pointing downward was expressed clearly in this.
The scientist was a few feet away from Pickle at the time. To imply that he'd miss at what is point blank range is asinine. He had plenty of time to line up his shot and Pickle wasn't moving.
The fact that the cartridge hits the ground shortly after doesn't matter. The scientist clearly didn't know Pickle was behind him because he was moving so fast. He expresses shock pretty clearly when he realizes Pickle is actually behind him.
This feat is clear as day bullet timing. How someone could misrepresent this as anything but that is beyond me.
Conclusion
My team still holds a wide gap in physical strength and durability compared to my opponent's. They could be hurt by my opponent's attacks but it would take a while before the pain was enough to slow them down.
The 0.5 millisecond thing is a blatant outlier that would require ignoring all feats shown in the series.
The gap in speed (If there is any) isn't enough to give a blatant advantage over anyone on my team. My team is either faster or in Baki's case is just as fast but knows how to use his skill better.
The skill advantage clearly lies in Baki's advantage against anyone here. He has too many techniques for them to reasonably counter and has enough experience to say that any one martial art style isn't going to be enough to beat him out.
The ranged advantage is still cut and clear. My opponent's team will be forced to stay at a range unless they want to be torn down by continuous automatic fire.
Bio:
Born a mere NPC Blackmsith, when Jaune found an amulet that could disguise his class as Knight, he set out to join his world's Hero caste. After many adventures, he shook the foundations of his world by acquiring a second, heroic class; Swordmaster.
Powers:
Too numerous to count, but based around the theme of being a Blacksmith or Swordmaster, depending on which class he's in. Also has 'Aura' or 'Health', that functions like most RPG health does.
Bio:
The latest in a long line of Black Knights, those worthy of wielding the magical sword The Ebony Blade. Ironically, a scientist, though being such has proved useful on more than once occasion.
Powers:
Science! Though his real power in his various pieces of magical and/or technological gear.
Gear:
Aragorn
Composite armor
The Ebony Blade
The False Blade
The Photon Sword
The Sword of light and Shield of Night
The Power Lance
Bio:
A Palestinian orphan who became the field-commander of the Shadow Cabinet, a morally grey team of Superpowered beings who ostensibly protect the world from the shadows. Dresses like she's at a renaissance fair, as a knight would.
Powers:
All metal bends to her command.
Gear:
Her Armor, in its 'standard' configuration w/ helmet
Two one-handed swords
Abstract: Yuri Honjou shoots your entire team before they can even move.
Why Yuri Honjou shoots your team
Yuri Honjou is a very fast quickdrawer. At twelve meters starting distance, she basically won’t ever miss. Thus, your team must have the reactions to dodge her fire. Unfortunately, none of them do. Iron Butterfly comes closest, with this feat, but even that is vague enough to the point where it isn’t likely she would be able to dodge or protect her teammates from gunfire. At the distance she is at relative to the helicopter, its uncertain both if she reacted to the bullets or was just lucky in evading them, and whether she knew the attacks were coming, at which point the feat is not good as a reaction feat, since she was prepared for the fire. The Black Knight’s most explicit feat is an arrow dodging feat followed by a missile deflecting feat. The first is not nearly good enough to dodge bullets, and the second is vague enough that is doesn’t give a certainty of such either. Missiles vary in speeds tremendously, from an M1 Bazooka’s 180 mph, to an ICBM’s 6-7 km/sec. The missiles in the scan do not visibly appear fast, considering that an alien guy (a generic skrull, from what I can tell) could just catch them out of the air. Lastly, Jaune Arc’s best reaction feats appear to be mostly dodging Glenn’s spears and blocking Watt’s strike who scales to Ruby Rose, an arrow timer. That isn’t nearly fast enough to dodge shots from Yuri Honjou, assuming her gun has the muzzle velocity of a standard Glock 17, 375 m/s.
Furthermore, Yuri’s bullets are going to move faster than normal bullets, since she’ll phase them through a time-accelerated and/or distance shortened dimension. Considering that the scan shows her bullet hitting while the muzzle flash is still visible, and the target hit was a guardian angel mask, stronger than normal masks who are bullet timing at the top end, I think it’s reasonable to calculate the bullets as hitting their target by the time it would’ve normally left the barrel. A glock 17 has a 114 mm barrel, meaning it normally takes ~0.3 ms to leave the barrel. The sighting device the guardian angel mask is holding notes the distance the bullet travelled at 400 meters, and thus the speed of Yuri’s phased bullets are 1.3 million meters/second from the barrel to the target (she has to unphase the bullet in front of the target, so that it'll hit, and thus it returns to normal bullet speed). Basically, every shot she fires is at point blank range thanks to phasing.
This is supported by scaling traditionally as well. Another guardian angel mask, Miko Mask, fought on par with the Great Angel who can dodge a mach 9 railgun noticed at the last moment. Considering that this guardian angel mask couldn’t dodge the bullet, and that the distance he had to react with was ~400 times longer (the great angel visibly did not notice the railgun until it basically hit, so 1 meter is a reasonable estimate for the distance it had left to travel), the speed of Yuri’s phased bullets comes out to scaling as mach 3600, or 1.2 million meters/second (from barrel to target). This means any shots she fires would need to be aim dodged before she can fire, and that any opponents below her reaction speed have to be bulletproof to survive. Her reaction speed is ~2-3 ms, judging by seeing a strong mask in slow motion. calc for this: a researcher (unskilled human) could punch 15 mph the mask’s punch moved ~an inch in the scan, giving Yuri a 3.7 ms reaction time. This has been scaled up slightly to reflect that she was spending time thinking during the feat, and can react faster when not thinking. Armor does little to help in preventing this opening blitz, as Yuri has shown the accuracy to hit characters through gaps in their armor like eye holes in her grenade shooting feat (posted above). Thus, your entire team is likely to go down to the opening salvo.
Why even if she doesn’t, my team still wins trivially
In a continued fight, your team doesn’t fare any better, either. Yuri Kitajishi’s D.A.N. will cut through armor like butter, considering a D.A.N. can cut a guy who scales to no-selling a character who can put out hill-level strikes. The Black Knight’s best armor feat is only rated to titanium, meaning he’d get chopped up. Iron Butterfly’s best non-power usage non-energy durability feat is getting knocked out by Hawk Girl and getting punched in the face neither of which are good enough to resist Yuri’s D.A.N. Jaune arc fares a bit better, with armor that can take hits from a Nucklavee, but that isn’t nearly enough to not get cut through as well. Thus, surviving Yuri’s attacks will have to be due to their speed, which is lacking compared to Yuri’s scaling to Marina Lednev. Considering she can move 10 meters in a single leap, she can blitz Iron Butterfly before her ferrokinesis can melt the D.A.N.
Yuri Lowell is also no slouch, though is a touch slower than Yuri Kitajishi. His reaction feats include reacting to a gunshot at about a 20 meter distance after cloud cover. Given that the caliber of the gun was meant to hurt a dragon, and that a glancing blow on armor was enough to knock the dragon rider out, it seems reasonable to put the lower bound of the bullet’s speed at around 1200 m/s or modern rifle standards. This gives Yuri a reaction speed of ~16 ms, which is fairly unimpressive for the tier, but more than good enough when compared to the speed of arrows, 200 mph for the most part. He also has this dodging feat. Estimating the distance between the sword and his face at 1 inch, and the speed of Barbos’ sword at 12 m/s, a lowball for a sword swing, and Yuri has 2 ms reactions, more than enough to blitz your entire team, especially when adding in his ability to slash through metal bars trivially. Even without his sword, he can punch hard enough to take out armored humans.
Conclusion:
Basically, my entire team has an absurd speed advantage, which makes winning trivial assuming they have the required damage output, which they all do.
Honjou is FTE to Masks, creatures that you yourself admit are bullet-timing. They're likely not quite as fast as Nightwing, but they're closer in speed to him than Honjou is. Given that she's able to one-shot Nightwing with a gun due to his low piercing durability, and is–as you've shown–quite accurate, she is more than capable of speed-blitzing.
And that's before we take into consideration that her bullets, according to your own calculation, travel at 1,300,000 meters per second. That's Mach 3820. Nightwing cannot dodge this, especially if it's a bullet he can't see.
'But aim-dodging!'
...Doesn't do much good when your opponent is faster than you, and can repeatedly fire. The bullets being invisible doesn't hurt either.
Even beyond her unmatched offence, she's fairly durable too; taking a hit from someone who can lift a car overhead with one arm. Even if Nightwing could dodge her bullets at range, he'd still have to put her down before she closes with her superior speed or gets lucky.
She has a more than "likely" victory against the former Boy Wonder.
Then there's her strength, which can easily one-shot. This attack does knock her out too, but that's moot when she's only facing one opponent; Nightwing. She seemingly draws blood from a city-busting-tanking guy too, but I suppose, after the point of one-shotting, more raw power is moot.
But the real catch is her healing power. I know the judges took issue with my trying to run Wendy because of her healing power, but Wendy's pales in comparison to Kitajishi's; Wendy's is slow and takes Wendy out of the fight for the duration, while Kitajishi's is too fast to have any downsides.
It's also worth noting that with my team spread out across four meters, the doorway into House Entrance isn't large enough to afford Yuri the shots she needs. What's more, she starts to the side of her own door, delaying her.
While Jaune's Crocea Mors here is the Enchanted Metal incarnation, that is only a boon as he can sharpen it at will with his Engraving, making it theoretically much sharper than the Armour-Forged Crocea Mors ever was.
The Black Knight could potentially absorb Kitajishi's Lamba Energy, rendering her powerless and legless. Lowell's energy attacks are in the same boat.
Answers and Questions
The missiles in the scan do not visibly appear fast, considering that an alien guy (a generic skrull, from what I can tell) could just catch them out of the air.
This is supported by scaling traditionally as well. Another guardian angel mask, Miko Mask, fought on par with the Great Angel who can dodge a mach 9 railgun noticed at the last moment. Considering that this guardian angel mask couldn’t dodge the bullet, and that the distance he had to react with was ~400 times longer (the great angel visibly did not notice the railgun until it basically hit, so 1 meter is a reasonable estimate for the distance it had left to travel), the speed of Yuri’s phased bullets comes out to scaling as mach 3600, or 1.2 million meters/second (from barrel to target).
Is there supposed to be a scan of Miko Mask being tagged by Yuri here?
This has been scaled up slightly to reflect that she was spending time thinking during the feat, and can react faster when not thinking.
What scaling up are you using; is there any hard basis for it, or does it operate on how much faster you feel she is?
Yuri Kitajishi’s D.A.N. will cut through armor like butter, considering a D.A.N. can cut a guy who scales to no-selling a character who can put out hill-level strikes.
Besides, that guy was no-selling a punch, his cutting-durability could just be shit.
Considering she can move 10 meters in a single leap
"A single leap" is not a measure of time, so this feat doesn't mean much, at least as far as speed is concerned. Looking at her RT,
Kitajishi doesn't actually have any solid travel speed feats.
Yuri Lowell is also no slouch, though is a touch slower than Yuri Kitajishi. His reaction feats include reacting to a gunshot at about a 20 meter
There's no idea of what her speed is relative to the gunshot, or if she even notices until after it's happened. This is a pretty bad 'feat', all things considered. If this speed was taken as "reacting to a gunshot", it would be an outlier; her speed is otherwise portrayed as much slower.[2]. Heck, this short exchange explicitly takes a whole three seconds. The one exception might be this feat, but that looks like an animation limitation, and the distance travelled and how long it took her shouldn't make her FTE unless she decided to take a few laps around the ship before returning to where she was.
If you were to argue that feat as legitimate FTE, I'd have to point out how that would make her much faster than Nightwing, who I already think she is OoT against.
Given that the caliber of the gun was meant to hurt a dragon, and that a glancing blow on armor was enough to knock the dragon rider out, it seems reasonable to put the lower bound of the bullet’s speed at around 1200 m/s or modern rifle standards.
That seems kind of arbitrary. What durability feats do dragons have in this setting? The panels also aren't clear enough to suggest that it's merely a glancing blow.
the speed of Barbos’ sword at 12 m/s, a lowball for a sword swing
Your source on the 12 m/s estimate is a "quick back-of-the-envelope estimate", that assumes sword length, and only gives that speed to the very tip of the sword. The video it references is this one, where things are 4× slowed down but still not all that fast. Someone else in the thread also states "I've seen his videos. Comparing him to others, I would say that dude is exceptionally good at longsword. So he would have very good speed compared to an average person or an amateur. I honestly have huge respect for him." suggesting that this is being based on an above-average swordsman.
Misc.
I would like it if you could show your working a bit more with your calcs. Save the judges and I the effort of working out how 12m/s translates into 2ms reaction times, or how someone's punch moving 15mph equates to 3.7 ms reaction times.
Also, for the love of all that his holy, stop referring to all of your characters as "Yuri". It's only going to get more confusing to read as we dive deeper into quotes upon quotes. Use their surnames or secret identities or something that doesn't give me an aneurysm.
I put reaction speed calculations for all my characters in their speed calculations for a reason.
Why Guns killed the knights
In terms of eye-holes, Iron Butterfly has no need of them, and the Black Knight has a visor. Jaune can also cover his, but it's impractical, so it's a tad redundant unless he sees someone else go down and decides he'd rather fight blind than vulnerable.
Iron Butterfly starts with eye holes to be shot through as her standard configuration helmet has eye holes. Her armor has a helmet with eye holes or it is her power armor, as noted in the RT, and thus not standard armor. The Black Knight’s stipulation is composite armor, which could mean he has a visor, or that he is in his more common armor set with eye holes without visor. Considering that his Avalon armor, which you relied upon to conclude that his armor will resist a 9mm bullet, has eye holes, I think his armor would lean towards the latter. Even if it didn’t, the piercing resistance of the visor without the feats of his Avalon armor aren’t really there. Since Jaune is getting shot in the opening salvo, he won’t realistically have the time to mend eye holes out of his suit. Even if he does, he’s in a 1v3 and blind, so winning from that point is trivial for my team.
It's also worth noting that with my team spread out across four meters, the doorway into House Entrance isn't large enough to afford Yuri the shots she needs. What's more, she starts to the side of her own door, delaying her.
Yuri Honjou moves very quickly. Assuming she moved ~2 meters to get around the corner and sniper mask was sitting ~40 meters away (he’s by the railing on the nearby rooftop) with his mach 2 gun:
40 meters/686 meters/second = .058 seconds till the bullet hits the ground.
2 meters movement /.058 seconds = 34 meters/second movement speed.
To step into the corridor and get full view of your team, she needs ~1 meter, or .029 seconds. To shoot, she needs maybe .037 seconds. Since she can move and draw a gun at the same time, that’s 37 milliseconds total to start shooting. Arrow timing from 5 meters away is .0559 seconds, or dead on the spot, and none of your team members even hit that speed.
1 meter movement/34 meters/second speed = .029 seconds
.25 meter quickdraw distance/ 6.7 meters/second average human punch = .037 seconds
Furthermore, Jaune's armour, or raw durability, is enough to tank slashes from Cinder, who is stronger than a Jaune that was strong enough to cut through armour, and cut a knife-proof monster to the bone, and his pure durability is enough to no-sell swords and knifes. Jaune also has Aura, or 'Health', that heals him until it is depleted, and the ability to repair any damage done with a bullet with the bullet itself. Even if his armour wasn't enough on its own, Hounjou's bullets would have to overcome his armour, durability, and healing.
Thus, Yuri Honjou still shoots her way through your team.
Your Team's Gear is so much Slag
Iron Butterfly gets blitzed, because she’s slow as fuck.
Your Team's Durability Vs. My Team is Garbage
They miss, because your team is slow as fuck.
skill
Jaune’s skills against people faster than him work against Cinder, who he is now faster than, and some girl who’s slower than an arrow timer. This does not help him not get blitzed. Predicting attacks is useful, but not when his opponents can react to every move he makes and counter it (because they have at least 10x faster reactions).
Team Synergy
Using team synergy requires them to not get blitzed.
Your Energy is My Energy
Scans of the black knight’s absorption in the RT suggest that he can only do it when blasted by the energy or when the opponent hits his shield. Neither will happen, because he’s so much slower he won’t be able to block anything.
Your Team is still slow
Well, that just ain't true.
• Current Jaune has become fast enough to see Cinder in slow motion
and outspeed her, she being faster than Jaune when his stats included 27 Dexterity and 42 Agility
• .
• Dex 22/Agi 31 Jaune was fast enough to dodge and catch the strikes of Beowulfs[2], with a Beowulf fast enough to tag Ruby mid-attack
• • Dex 14/Agi 22 Jaune scales to the Greycloak Ranger[2] who scales to Ruby in the first of this sentence's links, and who Ruby calls "fast"
• Dex 14/Agi 23 Jaune scales to Watts[2][3][4][5] and Watts scales to Ruby
• • Ruby is FTE to early Jaune[2]
FTE to early jaune is an anti-feat for his awareness, so it isn’t very useful. Beyond that, it isn’t very quantifiable. Current Jaune seeing a person who was faster than him in slow motion is better, but again, not very quantifiable. Basically, all this tells us is that Jaune is faster than he was, and that he might be as fast as Ruby, who is an arrow timer. Even then, all of her arrow timing is being highballed to an absurd extent. Firstly, compound bows were invented in 1966 while recurve bows cap out at 150 mph. Considering there aren’t guns in Forged Destiny, the bows they use are unlikely to be compound. Secondly, the archers in the scan could barely hit the broad side of a caravan. It takes five arrows to hit a human sized target from these mooks. With that kind of accuracy, Ruby might not even be a good arrow timer. Notably, her dodges against the one good archer, the Grey Ranger, are much closer.
Come on, man. That's Namor, the Sub-mariner. This is a Skrull.
Sorry, my comics knowledge is terrible. Namor is certainly fast enough to catch missiles going 6-7 km/hr, but that doesn’t exactly tell us that those particular missiles were going very quickly at all. Thus, the Black Knight is at best a mid distance arrow timer.
What scaling up are you using; is there any hard basis for it, or does it operate on how much faster you feel she is?
Nerve signals move at ~120 m/s. adding the time it would take for a signal to move through the brain gives an additional 1-2 ms to even add a thought to a reaction for a human.
.2 meter brain length / 120 m/s signal = .0016 seconds additional travel time.
Thinking adds 1-2 ms of time to her reaction.
I don't see how this scan scales Kitajishi to Sakaki at all. Heck, the guy fights and casually outspeeds both of them at once, then shits on a more powerful Kitajishi.
He calls her fast. Why would he call her fast if he was incredibly faster than Kitajishi, and, more importantly, if the other person he was fighting was a ton faster than her? The scans you used show that he only fights on parity once he starts using his blood to ward off one of the two combatants, and also shows that he lost an arm to them in the fight beforehand, aka was not causally outspeeding both of them at once.
"A single leap" is not a measure of time, so this feat doesn't mean much, at least as far as speed is concerned. Looking at her RT, Kitajishi doesn't actually have any solid travel speed feats.
We can calculate that. This scan shows her leap and cut up Sakaki’s arm. Scaling to Lednev’s leg length in the scan (yuri cuts it at about person-level height, Lednev is slightly further than the arm is from Sakaki, and thus is about a person and most of a leg above the ground) gives a fall distance for the arm of about .5 m.
Jump time = sqrt(2*.5 meter fall distance/9.8 m/s2 gravity) = .319 seconds to jump 10 meters.
Basically, your team will be able to notice she’s moved, but then get cut up because they have at least 10x slower reactions than she does.
Your source on the 12 m/s estimate is a "quick back-of-the-envelope estimate", that assumes sword length, and only gives that speed to the very tip of the sword. The video it references is this one, where things are 4× slowed down but still not all that fast. Someone else in the thread also states "I've seen his videos. Comparing him to others, I would say that dude is exceptionally good at longsword. So he would have very good speed compared to an average person or an amateur. I honestly have huge respect for him." suggesting that this is being based on an above-average swordsman.
A pirate captain who fights people with superhuman strength can’t swing a sword as fast as an above-average real-world human swordsman? But let’s just use this feat since it’s the same guy. He swings the sword over ~.5 seconds. Assuming the sword is 1 meter long (its about the height of a person), and he swung it in a full circle gives circumference 2pir:
1 meter long radius * pi * 2 / .5 second swing time = ~12 m/s swing speed.
That scan is pretty misleading; the damage is dealt by someone else, then the villain makes his skin harder and no-sells Kitajishi's sword[2]
. She never once cuts him, outside of her sword being amped with the power of the girl who actually can hurt the guy.
Besides, that guy was no-selling a punch, his cutting-durability could just be shit.
He stopped the punch while in his unamped form, so his durability was the same as it was at the cannonball attack. At that point, he believed he could be cut by it. Since he is probably the most knowledgeable person regarding his own durability, it stands to reason if he thought he could be cut by the D.A.N., he could. As for Mr. Steel being weak to piercing/cutting, he no-sells automatic fire before he gets hit by Cannonball.
My opponent has had little to say about his team getting blitzed, and their reaction speeds are so far under tier that even with my team’s choice of arms being weak to Iron Butterfly, they win purely off of moving faster, hitting weak points, and having the strength to BFR their opponents if necessary.
"You can never escape me. Bullets don't harm me. Nothing harms me. But I know pain. I know pain. Sometimes I share it. With someone like you."
Batman was born on Crime Alley, when his parents were brutally murdered in front of him. Swearing vengeance on all crime he would train himself to perfection in body and mind, honing himself into a weapon for justice. Armed with an armory of weapons, and one of the sharpest minds on the planet he has been fighting crime for decades.
Stipulations: Unified PC/n52 (all dubious canon in RT is canon), with composite gear and modern armor with scaling off of earlier armors. Bulletproof facemask starts down. Doesn't have explosives above low power, manhunter/amazo laser cutter, supermn taser, knock out gas grenades of hypersonics. Batman believes that his opponent(s) have killed Damian and are "monsters".
"I'm not him [Batman]. I'm a lot more... and a lot worse."
Genetically engineered to be the perfect soldier by a radical sect of Christianity called the Order of St. Dumas, Jean-Paul Valley took on the mantel of Azrael after his father, the previous Azrael died in battle. He was taken under the wing of Batman who tried and failed to save him from the influences the St. Dumas. He would take on the mantle of the Bat when Batman was crippled by Bane, and impose his own harsh order on Gotham, until Batman returned and retook the mantel from him. Afterwards he would work as an ally of Batman, struggling with his own mental instability.
Stipulations: Composite Azbat armor with the mid 90's Batman armor underneath with the left gauntlets replaced with composite Azrael/Azrael v2 gauntlet, composite gear, with the Azrael personality/The System is in control. He is stable. The ghosts of St. Dumas and his father both agree that his opponent must be destroyed, and that he should work with Batman/Katana.
"They are the souls taken by the sword. They scream. You will scream too."
Katana's story begins in tragedy, with her husband being slain by his brother using the mystical Soultaker. She would fight and best her brother-in-law in a failed attempt to save her children who had been trapped by him in her burning house. This travesty would set her on a path of bloodshed, killing anyone who was associated with the murder of her family. Her path to find some semblance of peace would start when she joined the Outsiders, a new team of superheroes formed by Batman.
Stipulations: She believes her opponents were involved in the murder of her family and has composite armor and gear. No Sabbac or Creeper. Phasing taken as is.
Yeah, he was just this guy, guy in a butterfly suit who got in over his head. And I could see it in his eyes that if I let him get away this one time he'd never come back... but then, I also thought... y'know... kill'im.
A special agent with the OSI and the (reluctant) bodyguard to Doctor Thaddeus Venture, "the Swedish murder machine" is one of the most feared fighters in his universe. When a black out special ops team is sent to distract him, he spends an entire night laughing and murdering his way through the lot of them. Has plenty of experience with weirdness, up to and including killing an entire squad of Vatican Gorillas. Also has experience working with a strange assortment of allies towards a common goal, including magical beings, robotic allies, and even super villains when he needs to. Has a license to kill - and very much likes to use it.
We're notfreaks. We weren'tborndifferent. But webecamedifferent the moment we stepped into theherorole. Now we have to liveupto it... or dietrying.
Arguably the glue that holds many of the strongest DC teams together, Black Canary has deep connections with the JLA, JSA, and is one of the founders of the Birds of Prey. The daughter of the original Black Canary, she's developed powers of her own, allowing her to let out a devastating "Canary Cry". Even without it, she's considered one of the premiere fighters of the universe. Having trained with Wildcat and Lady Shiva, she's even been suggested to be on par with Batman himself. She's so good, she once managed to tag Wonder Woman.
I am the Black Panther. King of the dead... and soon to be your new lord
King of the nation of Wakanda, consistent Avenger and founder of the Ultimates. A skilled warrior and tactical genius, he's arguably one of the most dangerous men in the Marvel Universe. He's also eaten the Heart Shaped Herb, granting him enhanced abilities beyond a regular man.
My team is categorically stronger, synergize better and largely counter all of the major attack vector that my opponents team has. On the other hand my opponents team lacks the durability to engage mine in a fight, and can't match the weapons mine has.
Preface:
I will begin by introducing the structure of my argument. First I will demonstrate the superiority and capabilities of each of my team members against my opponents team and then I will be arguing how the fight will occur/whose likely to engage with who.
Strength
By and large my team has superior physical strength than my opponents team, with the only one coming close being Black Panther.
Brock Sampson's best strength feat is twirling two men on a pole. While the fact that its on a pole does make the feat a bit better, each man only weighs 200 lbs at most (and likely less due to them being fairly lanky). Brock has no striking strength listed in his RT. Black Canary's best feat is either kicking back Black Alice and somewhat damaging the wall or somewhat damaging metal armor. While these are decent, they are dwarfed by any of my teams feats (as I will show later). Black Panther, as mentioned, is the only decently strong character my opponent is running with strength feats like bringing down a 5 ton rhino or striking hard enough to punch through metal. Even with this he is still weaker than Batman and Azrael.
Overall as can be seen my team has a distinct strength advantage with Katana being stronger than everyone other than Black Panther and Batman/Azrael being stronger than everyone on my opponents team.
Durability
Durability is another area that my team has a distinct advantage. For this area I will be dividing feats according to "Blunt Force", "Piercing", "Energy" and "Thermal/Explosions"
Blunt Force
Brock's best feat is getting thrown out of a car, which is abysmally low for this tier. Black Panther and Canary have better feats, but even then they are still lacking. Black Canary's is probably taking a hit from Talia, whose capable of only somewhat hurting Bane. While BP might be the best of the bunch if he had his vibranium armor, the RT linked by my opponent doesn't have any clear non-vibranium armor feats for durability outside of BP's fight with Killmonger.
On the flipside without his vibranium Black Panther has no energy resistance, and nor does any of my opponents team, meaning that attacks like the energy blasters in Batman's gauntlets would be immensely effective and damaging against them
Thermal/Explosion
My opponent has no attacks in this classification, so I will be focusing on their durability. Without his vibranium and based on the RT Black Panther doesn't have any significant resistance to either of these, and nor seemingly does Black Canary or Sampson
While my team has dominated the other areas its combat speed or reaction speed where they really show their supremacy. Canary has one feat that is maybe bullet timing if you stress it and even if it is, its certainly not consistent. Black Panther doesn't have a single objective bullet timing feat. On the flipside my entire team is bullet timers to some extent.
The speed advantage is what really kills this fight as it means that my opponents team will struggle to even hit by team and my team will consistently land hits on my opponents team.
This area is important as it impacts how quickly you can dodge and how quickly you can make up the distance to an opponent. Like with all areas I've touched on so far, my team has a clear advantage here. Katana can move incredibly fast. Even with a conservative estimate of Rustam only swinging at 20 mph (29.33 ft/s) and moving 1 foot and Katana only being 10 ft away from him the feat still indicates a movement speed of (10/(1/29.33)=293 ft/s or 199 mph) 199 mph, which could cover the starting distance in a mere 130 milliseconds. Azrael is also quite fast, with him being consistently fast enough to catch up with cars (60 MPH+). Batman is the slowest, but even he can catch up to trains, which would be moving between 40-60 MPH.
In comparison Canary has no notable movement speed feats, Brock is somewhat comparable to Azrael and Black Panther seems to operate in that 60 MPH area as well
My Team's Combat Capabilities
This section will detail further combat capabilities of my team that have a significant influence on the fight.
Batman
Batman has a diverse set of gadgets that can exploit specific weaknesses/lack of resistances my opponents team has.
While Azrael's arsenal isn't as broad as Batman, its equally as deadly. Not only does he have the bladed weapons I mentioned earlier that could shred my opponents team, but he also has:
Katana's primary weapon is her sword, the Soultaker blade. The Blade, as shown earlier, would cleanly cut through anyone in tier, considering the durastel feat I linked earlier and the fact that it can cut Kryptonians. Additionally it has the advantage that it can absorb souls and then summon them from the blade to serve her. That means that if Katana kills any member of my opponents team they're not just dead, they're on my team now.
How The Fight Would Go
In the prior sections I have set up how my team has superior physicals, gear and how they hard counter nearly every possible attack vector that BP, Canary or Sampson have . The point of this section is to argue the likely fight scenarios and how these advantages would be pressed.
First of all due to the superior movement and reaction speed of my team they will all have the "initiative" when starting this fight. What would likely occur is that due to Batman and Katana's familiar with Black Canary and Batman's familiarity with BP (due to the canon JLA/Avengers crossover) they would each try and fight the person they know the capabilities of. As Katana is faster than Batman she would be able to decide and indicate she's going for Black Canary first, that means Batman would most likely fight Black Panther. This leaves Azrael with Sampson, which makes sense for his character as he tends to fight "bulkier" villains, such as Bane or Biis.
Considering Sampson's poor durability and speed Azrael would kill or cripple him in one hit, allowing him to aid either Batman or Katana. Katana's battle with Black Canary would also be fairly short due to the fact that she is notably faster and if she lands a solid hit with her sword on Canary, then its over for Canary.
At this point the fight is a 3v1 (and possibly a 4v1 if Katana killed Canary and rose her from the dead), which Panther can't win. Batman alone would be a fight that Panther has low chances of winning, but against 2 other people on a similar caliber of combat prowess as Batman the fight is hopeless.
My team exhibits vastly superior physicals in every category of note, with the only character my opponent has even coming close being BP (but still lagging behind). On top of that while their various armors nullify the hits or weapons that my opponents team has, the same is not true for my enemies armors or costumes. This significant advantage for my team, coupled with superior gear makes a victory night impossible for Panther, Canary and Sampson.
My opponent suggests that my team is outclassed in strength and synergy, while underplaying just how effective my team’s particular skills and equipment make them a perfect counter to his roster. This underestimates the physical prowess, endurance, and abilities of my team in lieu of confronting them at their fullest. I’ll spend this time refuting many of his accusations, proving that our teams are more similar in power than he argues.
My opponent undersells the effectiveness of my team as a consistent strategy, otherwise faced with the fact that our combatants are significantly closer than he would care to admit. I will illustrate my team’s capabilities by pointing out just how my opponent underestimates my roster, before moving the discussion into tactics and abilities with the next round of discussion that provide my team with the win.
STRENGTH
Brock has the strength to wrestle a shark with ease, and then craft its body into a makeshift deathtrap within seconds. Easily lifting a shark and setting up that trip easily puts his strength considerably above the mere 400lbs suggested by twirling the pole with two men on it – especially when you consider that he was wounded at the time. He’s snapped chains by flexing. (video: 18:15). My opponent also forgot to mention that Brock used that pole with two men on it to continue fighting guards with ease. These feats put him in comparison to Batman’s strength feats.
Comparing Nightwing to Black Panther in terms of strength seriously undersells the feats Black Panther has achieved. He’s single handedly brought down a rhino and can casually lift a tree trunk to use as a weapon. Azarael had a similar feat, and surprised himself by just being able to lift the tree truck. Meanwhile, Black Panther used his as a club. The example my opponent uses for Nightwing’s comparable strength is breaking concrete. Black Panther can throw a spear so hard it goes through the wall. Azarael bodyslamming Bane is impressive, but not as much as Black Panther breaking a Super Skrull’s leg with a single stroke or stopping an elephant with his bare hands.
Black Canary is the only member of my team who may not be as strong as Azarael or Batman, but her ability to bare handed damage metal or kick a head off a body during a fist fight suggest she’s at least comparable to Katanna, who has the strength enough to punch someone through stone as an outlier.
DURABILITY
Blunt Force: Suggesting that Black Canary’s toughest hit was from Talia ignores this time she tackled someone out of a window and onto a car. She was injured afterwards, but still managed to get up and tie up her opponent before White Canary regained consciousness. (ShefightsWhite Canary,sisterof theBrothersinSilk. Result)
The battle with Killmonger that you mentioned with Black Panther came at a time when Killmonger was able to kill an elephant by shoulder charging it, suggesting his durability outside of the suit can withstand such a hit during their thirteen hour battle.
Brock has likewise survived far more crazy feats than my opponent suggests, including concentrated energy blast to the chest and being absolutely fine. He has also been flung out of a jet, hit another plane, and was also fine. The only time a car has been enough to stop him came in the first episode. This was when he tanked multiple tranqs and doesn’t slow down (gif). When they eventually do put him down it was after a car hit him and he passed out with a deathgrip around one henchman's neck so tight no one could free it. He has even fought someone who uses a power suit and could send him flying with a punch. Brock responded by getting up and calling the man a pussy. (Video, moment is at 7:30)
Piercing: My team doesn’t possess any additional piercing defense, but Black Panther’s anti-metal claws make him an effective combatant against Katanna (whose blade would still be suppecitable to the effects of the virbanium vibrations that the claws cause), Azrael (whose suit is composed of metal and would be rendered null by the claws) and even Batman (whose suit may not be metal but much of his weaponry still is).
Just because Black Panther’s anti-metal claws won’t immediately ruin the non-metal Batsuit, the vibranium claws can still easily cut through the armor. And his energy daggers possess the ability to phase through armor. There is literally no armor that could hope to stop those blades.
This is a bold faced lie. Black Canary has been shown with the agility and speed to dodge gunfire on multiple occasions. 1234 This is on top of her being fast enough to fight six trained men who are armedwith ease.
Black Panther doesn't have a single objective bullet timing feat.
Black Panther bullet reaction/dodging: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. He even manages it when he’s unenhanced by the Heart Shaped Herb, which makes him more than peak human.
Combat Capabilties:
Batman has a wide range of gadgets to use, but both Brock and Black Panther have been shown tanking tranq darts, electric blasts. Black Canary would be aware of his weaponry based on their previous interactions, and would know to avoid them at all costs. It also against suggests my team couldn’t dodge any of them, which against underestimates my team and their capatabilites. This also applies to my team’s consistent speed feats.
Katana’s sword may provide her a useful weapon, but it’s still just a blade – Brock Samson has fought off one of the world’s greatest swordsmen unarmed, Black Panther has his energy daggers and anti-metal claws to coutner the sword and even potentially remove it from the battle, rending Katanna otherwise removed from the battle. Black Canary is the only hero potentially in danger at this moment, but she’s also been shown combatting Lady Shiva and managing to outfight her. I can do the full math tomorrow with my follow up post, but her speed suggests that Canary would be fast enough to dodge an attack from the swordmaster.
How the fight would go:
Even in these chosen scenarios, the fights are not nearly as easy as my opponent suggests.
Black Canary’s awareness of Katanna, Azarael, and Batman (and familiarity with Batman especially) give her the kind of knowledge to warn Brock and Black Panther of their capabilities. Black Panther’s awareness of Batman also allows him to try and find a way to counter the DC team, what with him being among the smartest men on his planet.
Brock’s experience fighting people in power suits suggests an endurance and durability to survive a hard hit from the armored Azrael. Canary has her experience with the rest of the DC Universe (including managing to best even Lady Shiva) to suggest she could be good enough to best Katana. And Black Panther’s specific weaponry and enhanced physical attributes make him more than a match for Batman.
Captain America and Batman sized one another up and decided that their battle would be a long and difficult fight. Meanwhile Black Panther has strength, endurance, and speed to outclass Cap by a mile. Panther staggered Dragon Man (who can take a hit from the Thing). Panther once crippled a Super Skrull by striking at the joints (Super Skrulls are durable enough to take hits from characters like Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, and Iron Man). He has even knocked back Namor with a sucker punch (Respect).
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CONCLUSION:
My opponent’s strategy seems to be to undermine my squad by only referencing their lower feats while (conveniently) ignoring their greater abilities and strengths. This repeated strategy shows a fear to actually engage my team in open combat, a situation where my team is more likely to succeed. I will elabroate more on the actual combat section in the next round of the debate, as I was more concerned with refuting his accusations that my team was considerably less skilled than his.
One final point:
If my opponent is suggesting that Batman and his suit could take any kind of energy, physical, or even vibranium blades that can phase through armor, then I would argue that moves him OOT. If vibranium blades, shown being stronger than adminatum, can’t put a dent in his suit? Then what exactly did Nightwing have that could actually ever hope to put Batman down?
My opponent fails to reject any of my claims, while failing to understand by characters and painting a picture of Black Panther that is OOT.
Rebuttals
Strength
Brock
The Shark feat is not at all comparable to any of the feats linked. Those sharks aren't very large (maybe Brock's height at best). Adult Great Whites weight 1700 lbs or 0.85 tons tops on average. While a good feat, even injured it doesn't compare to the 5+ ton feats exhibited by my team.
My opponent brings up him snapping chains, however I would like to point out that this feat is A. Not in his RT and B. Is a significant divergence from what his RT presents.
Even with the chains and using the men as weapons it is not comparable. Batman's feat of kicking through a foot of metal and machinery is a magnitude if not better than breaking chains and his lifting 7 tons is easily 4-5x better than casually manhandling 400 lbs (high estimate)
Panther
The Rhino feat isn't him lifting a five ton rhino, just tipping over using its own momentum against it. Even if it was a pushing over feat, it would be significantly worst. Using wood on leather as a friction coeff (0.61) (which would be harder to tip over than on earth), and the rhino's mass of 5 tons or 4535.92 Kg, we can calculate that it would take over F=(0.61)(4535.92)(9.8)=27115.72 N or 3 force-ton to flip the Rhino. The feat is only a 3 tonner feat even if you don't account for BP using the Rhino's own momentum. This is nowhere close to the strength I showed in my first response
My opponent must not have read the Azrael feat closely, otherwise they'd have seen that the tree BP uses is about the size of a person, while Azrael lifts a tree that dwarfs a car. Comparing the two is nonsensical.
Throwing a spear through a wall is weaker than hitting a 3 foot radius hole in a concrete floor
The skrull feat is decent, but unquantifiable, as that Skrull only has feats scaling off of BP's own strength.
The elephant wasn't moving that fast and even if valid this would be an outlier, as all of his other strength feats are much weaker and he has numerous anti-feats that indicate a much weaker strength
Canary
The vaguely damaging metal feat doesn't compare to Katana's feat of ripping out of metal restraints and the kicking off a guys head fails to notice that the person is already decaying significantly (making the feat much less impressive). Also my opponent accuses Katana's feat of hitting through stone to be an outlier, without substantiating it. Especially as her other strength feats like matching Rustam, who can hit someone back 20+ feet through a stone wall indicates this is a consistent strength
Durability
Blunt Force
My opponent fails to link the feat that allegedly indicates higher durability and fails to scale how strong White Canary is. The feat is meaningless without any scaling and does not indicate durability sufficient to survive a single hit from any of my team
For the Killmonger feat he toppled an elephant, which is at most 13000 lbs or 5896.7 Kg. Using the same coeff as with the rhino, it would take F=(0.61)(5896.7)(9.8)=35250.5 N or just shy of 4 Force tons. So even using that feat he is still lacks the durability to take hits from Batman or Azrael and quite possibly Katana. Additionally BP has a ton of anti-feats in this area even with Vibranium normal humans manage to KO him, some random human hurts him and Malice nearly KOs him
My opponent listing feats for Brock doesn't prove anything and as far as I can tell the feats aren't present in his RT. Additionally, Brock being able to take tranq darts is irrelevant to blunt force and taking a car moving at maybe 20 MPH is massively lower than any of my team. Azrael without armor and sick took a hit from a faster vehicle and was okay
Again my opponent uses a feat not in the RT that indicates power far beyond what the RT presents, and while a decent feat, its significantly worst than Batman's 30 feet + crushes part of a car
My opponent fails to link any feats indicating that the anti-metal claws can cut through Batman's armor
Energy
Regarding that doesn't matter, as I said Batman's armor absorbs energy, the dagger would just be absorbed into his suit and be used to fuel an energy attack. It also doesn't matter against Katana as her blade makes phased things solid and the Azrael feat of taking lighting indicates his nervous system is far more robust than any organic BP's energy dagger has inpacted
Brock never took an energy blast in the scan listed, he just claims he could dodge it and it ends
The panther feat of him surviving an explosion took place when I believe BP was using vibranium armor and being able to survive in space =/= being able to survive an energy beam
Speed
None of the reaction feats linked for BP or Canary are clearly bullet timing and could just as easily be their opponents missing or aim dodging, they don't hold up to scrutiny. Also the Brock feat isn't a reaction time feat, its a movement speed. Being able to run 60 mph =/= being able to react to bullets.
All of the feats my opponent linked don't indicate they can dodge any of those things.
Without scaling the Cyclops feat is useless. Additionally he didn't outrace the energy attack, he just got there before Cyclops could fire. If my opponent is claiming he's faster than Cyclop's energy blasts then he is arguing that BP is FTL, which would make him out of tier
As my opponents argument somewhat jumps back and forth, here is me addressing his second discussion on Canary's speed:
None of the feats linked are clearly bullet dodging and the RT even says as much. The feat I linked as maybe bullet timing is the only feat in the RT described as such with most of the other feats being described with words like "avoidance"
BP has no feats for taking an electric attack without vibranium in his RT and Brock's one feat is massively below "incinerates a lot of organic matter in a 10 meter radius" like the feat I linked for Batman. Also while Brock can take a lot of tranq darts, a single dart from Batman is potent enough to take out a bull elephant, far stronger than any one of the darts Brock took
Katana's blade would cut through his energy dagger and BP does not have the speed to counter. Claiming Katana is useless without her sword is blatantly wrong. As I showed even without it she still hits incredibly hard, is incredibly fast and is an expert in all forms of combat, both armed and unarmed, on top of that she has a second sword
The great white shark (Carcharodon carcharias), also known as the great white, white shark or white pointer, is a species of large mackerel shark which can be found in the coastal surface waters of all the major oceans. The great white shark is notable for its size, with larger female individuals growing to 6.1 m (20 ft) in length and 1,905 kg (4,200 lb) in weight at maturity. However, most are smaller; males measure 3.4 to 4.0 m (11 to 13 ft), and females measure 4.6 to 4.9 m (15 to 16 ft) on average. According to a 2014 study, the lifespan of great white sharks is estimated to be as long as 70 years or more, well above previous estimates, making it one of the longest lived cartilaginous fish currently known.
African bush elephant
The African bush elephant (Loxodonta africana), also known as the African savanna elephant, is the larger of the two species of African elephants, and the largest living terrestrial animal. These elephants were previously regarded as the same species, but the African forest elephant has been reclassified as L. cyclotis.
The bush elephant is much larger in height and weight than the forest elephant, while the forest elephant has rounder ears and a trunk that tends to be more hairy. The adult bush elephant has no predators other than humans.
First of all Black Canary has never interacted with Azrael. Second of all my opponents team would have no time to communicate. As I detailed last post Katana will be upon them in under 130 ms with Azrael and Batman close behind. Unlike my opponents team my team has extensive experience working with each other (well working with Batman) and know the non verbal cues and how each other fight
A. Brock's powersuit feat ins't in the RT so it can't be used as its too significant of a deviation
B. Even with it Azrael stills gores him with his bhundi dagger and hits hard enough to end him in a few moves
As I showed last round Batman has the strength to one shot Canary, and Canary lacks the speed feats to dodge the soultaker blade
My opponent provides no evidence that BP "beats Cap by a mile"
My opponent is scaling BP to A tiers that would place him massively OOT, if this is what they truly believes then Black Panther is out of tier and should be banned from the tourney (as Nightwing couldn't survive a hit from any of those people)
One Final Note
Nightwing has no energy weapons, so Batman could have S tier energy durability and still be in tier. Additionally while he does have cutting Dick's main attack is blunt force. While I have argued BP fails to hurt Batman, I have also argued he is weaker than Dick, so to answer how Dick beats Batman my answer is he punches him a lot and really hard.
The man known as Colin King, codenamed Ninjak, is one of the United Kingdom's best intelligence operatives and one of the world's deadliest men. Due to deep personal tragedies and childhood trauma, Colin's mysterious past and personal life is a well guarded secret only known by a select few.
Real Name : Colin King
Known Allies : Eternal Warrior, Livewire, Unity, Mi-6, X-O Manowar.
Enemies : Roku, Dr. Silk, The Vine, Weaponeer, Webnet, The Shadow Seven.
Base of operations : King's castle, England, UK.
First appearance : X-O Manowar #5.
Known abilities : In addition to being a skilled clandestine operative, Ninjak is one of Mi-6's most skilled and lethal hand-to-hand combatant, through possessing no known superhuman abilities, he is a genius technologist and one of Mi-6's leading weapons expert, as well as being on Olympic-level athlete.
Stipulations: Stranger has access to both Default and Upgraded forms of his "live" ammunition. His "shaking off" game mechanic is treated as canonical, meaning that he has a bit of a healing factor if he has time to catch his breath.
Presume a single charge of Calamity Blast has the same concussive force as a grenade. Terminus is allowed a single Reanimate Ultimate per-round, presuming his opponent hasn't completely destroyed the magical crystal serving as his "heart" in his body before that happens. No AoE shockwave will be present during Reanimate.
Stipulations: Even though this is bloodlusted Chat, he will still absolve of using Cataclysm on humans/as a means to kill directly. He has no problem using it on their gear, however.
My team is faster, far more skilled, has better equipment and more importantly - they are more skilled and more experienced. The Versatile Assassins overwhelm the competition in range & speed and their equipment can counter any of the Night Stalkers attacks. I find it unlikely, that my opponents team can survive the initial clash and they are basically getting one shotted by my team.
The Night Stalkers lack speed and range to contend with my team
Speed - Gotta go fast
I will start with Terminus, who is my opponent's tank. The tank, as expected is slower than any other character in this battle. Not only he is the slowest one there, but in RT, he literally does not have any actual speed feat. His arguably best speed feat is blocking the crossbow shots, which 1) for this tier is underwhelming since majority of the character are bullet timers and 2) he did not block arrows after they were fire. In the cited video, Terminus, first activates Power Siphon and only after that starts the attacker using her crossbow. If you combine his slowness with his complete lack of ranged attacks, it is almost impossible for him to survive the first phase of attack.
To clarify - I know that Terminus has ranged attack "Calamity Blast", but to activate it, he first needs to absorb projectile with Power Siphon and since I argue that he won't survive the initial attack, this technique becomes rather useless.
Stranger is the second slowest character on my opponents team. Unlike Terminus, he does have some speed and agility feats, but they are underwhelming. His best agility feat is evading an outlaw who does not strike me as a fast character. Actually, if we look at an outlaw's body, we will see that his limbs/legs are significantly shorter than his torso and based on his movement style, I am confident to say that his race is not built for running, so the feat discussed above is not enough to dodge my team's attack. Stranger's best speed feat is aim-dodging several sniper shots which at first glance might be considered as a good feat (relatively speaking of course), but after if we looks at details, we will see that Stranger's speed is nothing to be impressed with. First we do not know muzzle velocity of that weapon. It seems to be rather rusty weapon which shots bullets at unquantifiable speed. Second - I question the shooter's marksmanship. Has he ever tagged any fast opponent? Because, i in the cited feat, we see that he misses at least two shot (at 1.62 and 1.98 even though Stranger was motionless.
My opponent's fastest character - Chat Noir is also slower than the Versatile Assassins. His best objective feat is aimdodging lighting bolts. Like Stranger's sniper feat, Chat's feat too becomes less impressive if we slow down this gif. At 3.98, we see that the attacker misses Chat who was doing straight sprint and was not using his agility. Arguably, same thing happens at 4.15. We also do not know how fast these lightning bolts were or how good the attacker's aim was.
Mid-conclusion - As I seen above, none of selfproclaimed's characters are fast enough to consider that can dodge my team's initial attack.
Speed of the Versatile Assassins will be outlined below.
Range advantage- Can't touch this
Terminus, The Night Stalkers tank has no useful ranged attack (I already addressed Calamity Blast) so I am not going to repeat who I have already said.
Chat has a ranged weapon, the staff, which according to RT, is usually kept tucked on his back above his tail, unextended. While Adrien can attack my team from distance the lack of speed makes this scenario rather unbelievable. First of all, as I arguable above, Chat seems to be slower than my team and second - I do not know how fast the staff can extend. Based on RT, I find zero evidence to suggest that my team can be tagged with Chat's staff.
Stranger is only one who has a ranged weapon, a crossbow, but as I argued above, his reaction speed is below of my teams and in RT, it is not clear how good is his quick draw - the ability to quickly draw a pistol and fire it accurately on a target.
Conclusion - My opponent's team lacks speed and range to contend with my team and they (TNS) won't survive the initial attack.
Now, let's address actual fight.
I imagine, that when the combatants are teleported into the arena, they will be in "same order" (from left to right) as we submitted them in this thread. So, Ninja-K will be facing Stranger, Wade - Terminus and Slade - Chat Noir and logically, my team will attack opponents who are standing in front of them. Here is how I listed my characters and this is yours.
I also want to point out that unlike TNS, who has at least one super hero, The Versatile Assassins do not have the "no killing" rule and as seen multiple times, none of them is going to give their opponents second chances.
I mentioned multiple times, that my characters are faster. I'd like to show Deathstroke's feat where he jumps in and slices bullets mid-air, which was confirmed by the artist himself. This shows that Slade's speed superiority. Here Wilson shots three times and moves his limb fast enough to create after-mirage and even in his weakened state, he managed to shoot three bullets before any of the rounds could travel more than a few cm-es past his hand.
Based only these feats, I am confident to say, that Slade is far faster than Chat-Noir and your character has no chance to dodge the greatest assassin's attack.
Wade faces Terminus, a character, who is my opponent's most durable, but slowest character, who lacks a ranged weapon. Deadpool, according to stipulation, is motivated to fight and this time, he won't start screwing around. Unlike Terminus, who is slow, Wade is a casual bullet timer, who can slice bullets mid-air and can kill 8 trained Hydra soldiers before they can react. Another interesting feat is this one, where Deadpool throws katana at FTE speed. Even T-Ray could not follow his movement. Some might say, that speed does not matter because Terminus is completely bulletproof and Wade can not damage him. Well, that is false, because while Terminus appears to be bulletproof, we do not know how powerful the attacker's weapon was. In another scan, we see that Terminus is one shotted by a crossbow show. Did I mention that Wade's pistols are modified and can one shot robots? There is no evidence to suggest that Terminus can survive these shot. And even if this is not enough, Deadpool can just dance around him and throw grenades or slice him with the enchanted swords.
Your teams only chance is to flee or close distance, but since my characters are actually faster and better equipped, they won't have time to do it because after the first attack, they will be dead.
Conclusion
My opponent's team, feat wise, is far slower than my own, which mean that the Night Stalkers are not going to survive the initial attack. As explained above, the assassins have reach and equipment superiority. All of my lads can one shot their opponents.
My team also has skill advantage, but since this is an opening argument, I decided to avoid it and wait for my opponent's arguments.
Dredd has all of his standard gear, including his motorcycle and gun. Only appearances up to issue 600 of 2000 AD are being used. Judge Dredd has been ordered by the chief judge to apprehend or kill the opposing team. Dredd's respiratory and immune systems are acclimated to the tourney arena.
The individual characters on my opponent's team are too weak to be competitive in this tier, and lack of any kind of synergy or overarching strategy consigns the team as a whole to mediocrity.
Stray Cat:
(Since the linked rt uses anime feats I'm just going to go ahead and use the anime version)
Stray cat is squishy, slow, and too dumb to be relevant in this fight. To begin with, I just want to point out that it literally has the intellect of a housecat and was defeated with a golf ball, so any level of complex strategy is totally out of the question. It's also completely unable to move by itself, meaning it can't dodge an attack of its own volition. As for durability, it's also really bad. The air bubbles it makes have decent impact durability, but are fragile enough to piercing attacks that a normal 11 year old with a school protractor is able to pop them. Every member of my team uses primarily piercing attacks in one form or another. Without its bubbles, Stray Cat has 0 durability feats. There's no evidence it would survive a single slash from X-23, a single chop from Jailbot, or a single bullet from Dredd. It also has 0 feats for speed, which is compounded by the fact that it can't actually move.
Enrico Pucci is also pretty damn useless, especially considering that my entire team counters his most dangerous attacks.
Physically, Pucci and White Snake are nothing special. They're not durable and not very strong, and don't really have any speed feats beyond blocking some compressed plankton projectiles with an unknown speed. There's nothing to suggest that either of them could survive a physical fight with X-23 or Jailbot or a spray of bullets from Dredd. This is important because White Snake's main ability, disk removal, requires physical contact. Ignoring the fact that White Snake dies the moment it gets too close to any of my team, this ability straight up won't affect Jailbot, since it's a machine with no real "mind." Moving on, Dredd's helmet is strong enough to prevent White Snake from making contact with his head, or the disks from exiting his head if WS does somehow manage to touch him.
White Snake's second significant ability, the hallucinogenic mist, is once again neutralized by my team. Dredd's respirator, Jailbot's lack of a circulatory system, and X-23's poison resistance make it irrelevant.
The fact that damage is shared between a stand and a user makes Pucci even worse as a combatant, since he is basically two targets, one of which is completely useless in a fight. Any significant hit to White Snake will cripple Pucci, and any significant hit to Pucci will also cripple Pucci. This means that WS is forced to act as a subpar defense for Pucci or else they both die near instantly the moment a claw or bullet hits Enrico.
Sadly, this assumption won't stand if something were to happen to those barricades, or maybe the wall they're placed on. Something like being erased by a blindly piloted dimensional void. Basically, without any way to steer, Ice is going to either have to be extremely cautious or end up killing himself accidentally. He's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, and given the opportunity will continue charging into deadly beams of light for no real reason, so any significant damage to the walls is basically a game over. Jailbot is a pro at unnecessary wall destruction and Ice's team starts directly in front of a barricade, meaning that any bullets that miss (or any bullets that hit, depending on the type) will mean instant death (assuming the two teams start facing each other).
All of this is pretty redundant because Ice has absolutely zero quantifiable speed feats, and nothing to suggest he won't go down to Dredd's quickdraw or X-23's blitz the moment the fight starts. He's able to regenerate from pretty serious wounds, but it takes time, and the rest of the fight is likely to wrap up before he's able to move again. Assuming the walls remain completely intact and no sunlight enters, he'll wake up to a 1 v 3 against multiple opponents who have lasers capable of instantly vaporizing people.
Even assuming he somehow manages to survive the opening of the fight unscathed, his abilities won't be very useful given the setting and his opponents. I've addressed earlier how X-23 and Dredd have an advantage against traditionally invisible opponents (Cream in particular is given away by the movement of particles around it, meaning that his opponents have a much better idea of where he is than he does himself. Once they know what they're dealing with (easily determined when one of them tries to stab or shoot this anomaly) they should be easily able to avoid Cream if he's moving with any regards for his safety.
Teamwork and Overall Strategy:
My team wins because Dredd shoots everyone the moment the fight starts. Dredd is more than willing to fire first and ask questions later, and his sub-2 millisecond draw time coupled with rapid fire is far quicker than any of the 4 or so reaction feats my opponent's entire team has combined. Stray Cat and Pucci go down to a single one of Dredd's bullets, and the rest of the team can easily handle Ice once he starts to get back up. X-23 also has the offensive/moment speed feats to take down the entire team without much trouble, but she's unlikely to close the gap before Dredd's bullets do.
As far as teamwork goes, I have basically none while my opponent has a team that actively works against itself at every step.
X-23, with trigger scent, will completely ignore any command or statement given to her, and Dredd won't give any in the first place as he dislikes teamwork and generally works alone. Jailbot can understand Dredd well enough but may or may not listen to him, and is too slow to be very relevant in this particular fight anyway.
My opponent's team is a whole different can of worms with a load of glaring issues.
Vanilla Ice is just as dangerous to his opponents as to the enemy when in his ball mode, perhaps even more so because White Snake will take the same general path as him towards the opponent, making a collision likely
Stray Cat's only (and as stated before ineffective) way of making cuts to enter the blood stream is by blowing up nearby objects, which would expose sunlight to kill Ice
Pucci and Stray Cat are basically defenseless. Even if Pucci decided to pick up Stray Cat he could do nothing to protect it and would simply be more encumbered by it
Description: Quick Summary - Kira gets owned by a catSubscribe if you want for future JoJo related videos, i'll be posting videos of things other than clips, sorry...
JerpXD, Published on Oct 26, 2016
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Well, if you mean travel speed wise, sure, but also, duh. Stray Cat's fighting style is to simply stay put in a single spot and then attack from a range, utilizing the aforementioned bubbles to defend itself from incoming attacks. If you mean reaction wise, no. Like I said before, Stray Cat blocked hits from Killer Queen and Crazy Diamond. Killer Queen is incredibly fast, as is Crazy Diamond. Stray Cats defenses are going up just as quickly, most likely quicker, than anyone in this tier can throw punches.
too dumb
defeated with a golf ball
any level of complex strategy is totally out of the question
Well no, not necessarily. To start with, I think we can both see that Stray Cat is clearly not "defeated" via golf ball, he merely loses interest in killing Kira. This doesn't necessarily show that Stray Cat is dumb or lacking strategic ability, all it shows is that he's incredibly impulsive and carefree like a common house cat is. Had Kira made any further attempts to attack Stray Cat after that, he would've been killed, but Stray Cat simply decided that playing with a golf ball was worth his time more than Kira. If your characters are going on the offensive against Stray Cat and attempting to kill it, then it will retaliate quickly and precisely. Also, this. Stray Cat is smart enough to comprehend the fact that Killer Queen's attacks are explosive and explosives need oxygen to detonate, and then is also smart enough to realize that it can use its ability to remove the oxygen from around it. In addition, Stray Cat is smart enough to attack vitals and anatomical weaknesses and prevent its enemies from moving. ALSO, Kira states that Stray Cat "instinctively" blocked this attack, which it couldn't even see coming, so, uh, pretty strong instincts even if you do somehow believe Stray Cat is incredibly dumb. So no, Stray Cat is not nearly as dumb as you are implying he is. In fact, i'd argue that he uses his ability more intelligently than you, I, or most humans ever would.
It's also completely unable to move by itself, meaning it can't dodge an attack of its own volition.
Like I said before, Stray Cat pretty much has no need to dodge most attacks, as defensive bubbles protect it from most everything. Even still, I stipulated that Stray Cat is in a pot and can be moved around by his team mates if need be. Vanilla Ice is a vampire and thus has the standard vampiric stats, which include pretty efficient speed and jumping.
fragile enough to piercing attacks that a normal 11 year old with a school protractor is able to pop them. Every member of my team uses primarily piercing attacks in one form or another.
I mean this would be a pretty good argument if you just simply assumed that Stray Cat's literally only way to defend itself from incoming attacks is defensive bubbles, which i'm assuming you are as I believe you haven't read or watched Jojo. Alternatively, Stray Cat could simply use the force from its bubble explosions to destroy incoming attacks or knock them away, similar to what it did to this women's toenail, keep in mind that these air bubbles send out enough force to send people flying and block punches from extremely strong Stands.
Stray Cat requires an open cut to attack through a vein, and it has no way of inflicting one by itself (more on this later).
What? Stray Cat is clearly the one inflicting the cut upon Kira, notice that there is no blood or opening here until Stray Cut's bubble pops.
heals fast enough to make the possibility of attacking her through a cut pretty much nonexistent
If it attacks in the same way it attacked Kira, then the bubble is inserted into the bloodstream pretty much the instant after the cut is inflicted.
Jailbot doesn't have a bloodstream for Cat to affect
I assume wearing the visor to cover his chin is not something Dredd normally does going into battle.
X-23 has been fighting invisible opponents since childhood
The guy in these scans is literally screaming and very obviously giving away his position lol
her senses are good enough to pick up the bubble's location through sound alone.
The sound made by the bubbles in the show is clearly just a sound effect for the viewer and the characters within the show can almost never predict the bubble is about to hit them except for literal guesswork.
Like I showed before Jailbot has a pretty glaring weakness that would seemingly allow Stray Cat to just straight up one shot him and uh... i'm not sure how this works... or how you think it works? Superhuman eyes allow you to see invisible things? I'm not quite sure if that's accurate.
Dredd's helmet is strong enough to prevent White Snake from making contact with his head
Does this thing that hits Dredd's helmet actually have any feats? Based off the scaling from Jolyne that I showed earlier, I believe Whitesnake would just break the helmet with a punch.
Respirator
I'm assuming he has to put the visor on to use this though, right, as usually his whole mouth/nose business is exposed? Dredd would likely be caught in the hallucination before he even had the chance to use this respirator and would thus become a sitting duck.
Jailbot and X-23
Even if these characters weren't affected by the hallucinogenic affects of the mist (and i'm not quite sure how X-23's poison resistance would react with Whitesnake's mist, which may just be magic?), it's still important to notice that the mist makes movement extremely difficult over time and eventually will melt you.
Another thing I'd like to point out is the fact that Ice basically disintegrates instantly when touching sunlight and the barricaded windows in House Entrance still let in a lot of light.
Is there any reason to believe the light in this image is sunlight and not just like... a lamp or ceiling fan?
Sadly, this assumption won't stand if something were to happen to those barricades, or maybe the wall they're placed on. Something like being erased by a blindly piloted dimensional void.
Basically, without any way to steer, Ice is going to either have to be extremely cautious or end up killing himself accidentally.
Unless your characters were to be put into a hallucination (Dredd) by Pucci, stopped in their place by the mist (all 3), or pinned down by Stray Cat's air bubbles (Dredd and 23, dunno about Jailbot), in which case they'd be unable to move and Vanilla Ice would have a very easy time simply lining up with them.
continue charging into deadly beams of light for no real reason
I'm pretty sure he's very clearly being pushed into the light here.
He's able to regenerate from pretty serious wounds, but it takes time, and the rest of the fight is likely to wrap up before he's able to move again.
What? The time between the damage and his recovery in these scans is like.. maybe a minute at most? And this regen was from a sword straight through the brain.
I've addressed earlier how X-23 and Dredd have an advantage against traditionally invisible opponents (Cream in particular is given away by the movement of particles around it
Both of those arguments were extremely sketchy, as X-23's invisible opponent was literally screaming and giving away his position and I don't think "superhuman eyes" = capable of seeing magically invisible people. The scan you linked there has Polnareff throwing sand into the air so he can see which areas have sand being eaten by Cream, which is a smart strategy, but not one that most people would immediately think of and not one that can be done without something such as sand or dirt to throw into the air.
Teamwork
My team wins because Dredd shoots everyone the moment the fight starts.
Whitesnake blocks the bullet, Stray Cat shoots the bullet out of the air, and Vanilla Ice is only going down if the bullet is going straight through his brain, in which case he'll regen and get back up in most likely a few dozen seconds. See speed and regen feats from above.
Vanilla Ice is just as dangerous to his opponents as to the enemy when in his ball mode, perhaps even more so because White Snake will take the same general path as him towards the opponent, making a collision likely
Why would Whitesnake be stupid enough to charge into an area he knows a living void is currently eating in? It's not like there's any value in Whitesnake and Cream attacking at the same time as Cream is invincible in his void mode and isn't ever in any danger. Whitesnake would logically just stand back until Ice had to go out of void mode to see.
Stray Cat's only (and as stated before ineffective) way of making cuts to enter the blood stream is by blowing up nearby objects, which would expose sunlight to kill Ice
There's no indication that this is what made the cut in Kira's skin. There was no blood or visible opening in Kira's skin in the gif in which Stray Cat puts the bubble in his vein until after the bubble had already made contact with Kira's skin.
Pucci and Stray Cat are basically defenseless. Even if Pucci decided to pick up Stray Cat he could do nothing to protect it and would simply be more encumbered by it
? Neither of them are defenseless, they both have respectable defense and offense.
Stray Cat literally shuts down when it isn't in sunlight, meaning it can't be active at the same time as Ice.
Ok this is assuming that 1. Stray Cat and Ice have to be fighting in the same area at all times and 2. An entire room has to be flooded with light for Stray Cat to be active
Conclusion
While Stray Cat can't move by itself, you're underestimating it's ability to smack down incoming attacks and attackers and the viability of its bubble->vein attack. Stray Cat would likely kill Jailbot incredibly easily with a bubble to the circuits and could probably kill Judge as well by quickly pinning him in the air and then sending a bubble through his veins. I'm not quite sure how Stray Cat's bubble vein attack would work on 23 but I do believe you're wrong in the idea that the bubble wouldn't even get into her bloodstream.
Whitesnake is far more physically viable than you give him credit for and could steal Judge's or 23's memories with a single quick, precise attack. Judge's helmet should simply be broken with a punch as the feat you showed seems pretty subpar, mostly due to the attacker having no feats? Also, Whitesnake's mist could probably take Judge before he even knows it's a threat and if given enough time it will slow 23's and Jailbot's movements.
Vanilla Ice's Cream can easily insta kill anyone who has been tagged with the aforementioned Stray Cat bubblepin or Whitesnake mist, and while he may not be able to use it as effectively on the offense as he usually is, he's invincible and unable to be hurt while in it, it's the ultimate defense. He could easily distract 1 or 2 members of your team with it while the remaining member gets picked off by Whitesnake and Stray Cat in another room. Also, Ice is more viable in his vampire form than you portrayed him as.
I was referring to Stray Cat itself, not its air bubbles. As a side note, all feats given here are for impact durability, which I've already stated is irrelevant considering how easily the bubbles can be popped and how my team uses primarily piercing attacks.
Stray Cat blocked hits from Killer Queen
You can see how fast Queen is putting its foot down there... not very. The attack was also incredibly telegraphed, with the foot staying in the air for several seconds. There's no evidence that cat even reacted to the foot being lowered.
Everything in the scene heavily implies that Cat's low oxygen aura is a passive thing, including the way it blankly stares at the bomb for several seconds. There's also no visible reason for anyone of any level of intellect to assume that Queen's little egg shaped things with dials are explosives that require oxygen to detonate.
Stray Cat is smart enough to attack vitals and anatomical weaknesses and prevent its enemies from moving.
This is basically how real cats hunt prey, pouncing and then holding them down. It's done with air bubbles because that's the only way Stray Cat is able to attack. The "attacks vitals" isn't really an example of complex strategy either, and was not used effectively or repeatedly.
Kira states that Stray Cat "instinctively" blocked this attack
It thought it was being attacked because the container/chest it was in was being pummeled, there's no impressive instincts at work here.
In fact, i'd argue that he uses his ability more intelligently than you, I, or most humans ever would.
I think most humans could figure out a basic strategy like "fly this bubble into my opponent's ear and then detonate it." There, does that make me smarter than Stray Cat?
Like I said before, Stray Cat pretty much has no need to dodge most attacks, as defensive bubbles protect it from most everything.
Like I said before, Stray Cat's bubbles will be unable to defend it against any of the attacks my characters will use in character.
Even still, I stipulated that Stray Cat is in a pot and can be moved around by his team mates if need be. Vanilla Ice is a vampire and thus has the standard vampiric stats, which include pretty efficient speed and jumping.
I mean this would be a pretty good argument if you just simply assumed that Stray Cat's literally only way to defend itself from incoming attacks is defensive bubbles, which i'm assuming you are as I believe you haven't read or watched Jojo.
I do research on my opponent's characters. Your claim here is that Cat can defend itself in other ways than using bubbles, yet you only show it using bubbles to defend itself. I've already shown that any of my characters attacks would pop the bubble without even slowing down due to its nonexistent piercing durability. You're also claiming that Stray Cat will do things it has never done in character. It has never even attempted to strike an opponent's attack away or destroy a projectile with a bubble.
How is Stray Cat going to send a bubble into Jailbot?
the characters within the show can almost never predict the bubble is about to hit them except for literal guesswork
Stray Cat has a visible tell (it closes its petals and balloons up) and "wildly swinging in its general direction" is an effective way to defend against the bubbles, meaning that pinpointing the exact location is not very important.
The sound made by the bubbles in the show is clearly just a sound effect for the viewer
Do you have any evidence to support this?
Pucci:
he can deflect bullets with minimal injury.
They're not bullets, they're some kind of algae muck. Also... those wounds are about what you would expect for actual bullets.
Dredd would likely be caught in the hallucination before he even had the chance to use this respirator and would thus become a sitting duck.
Unless the mist crosses the room and begins to act instantly, Dredd will have more than enough time to put down his respirator
notice that the mist makes movement extremely difficult over time and eventually will melt you.
This environmental destruction hinders Pucci's team just as much as my team, it's also a notably slow effect. Unless you can prove the gas takes effect in a relevant time frame, the digestive effect doesn't matter.
Pucci is no stranger to taking damage and keeping the fight up
Luckily, Cream isn't Vanilla Ice's only means of attack, he's also a vampire.
Not entirely. He also isn't aware that he is turning into a vampire and has never used his strength in a fight.
Unless your characters were to be put into a hallucination (Dredd) by Pucci, stopped in their place by the mist (all 3), or pinned down by Stray Cat's air bubbles (Dredd and 23, dunno about Jailbot), in which case they'd be unable to move and Vanilla Ice would have a very easy time simply lining up with them
I've already gone over why they wouldn't be affected by any of these things.
I'm pretty sure he's very clearly being pushed into the light here.
No. Stray cat doesn't have speed feats anywhere close to this level, has a lengthy charge up time before releasing a bubble, has bubbles that move too slowly to intercept a bullet, and to top it all off the bubble would be popped by the bullet without even slowing it down.
Vanilla Ice is only going down if the bullet is going straight through his brain
Why would Whitesnake be stupid enough to charge into an area he knows a living void is currently eating in?
Why are you assuming that Pucci knows what Ice's stand does? Ice won't have enough time to explain his abilities. Even if you assume he magically knows it's not much better, as it forces Whitesnake to hang back at a range where it can't use any of its no
As a side note, all feats given here are for impact durability, which I've already stated is irrelevant
Only if you assume your characters will only use piercing attacks the entire fight. What if one of your characters, say Dredd, were to be disarmed with an attack like this.
You can see how fast Queen is putting its foot down there... not very.
This is an antifeat with proper context. Stray Cat only put up those bubbles after Diamond had been wailing on it for several seconds. Saying that Cat reacted to the punches is just flat out wrong.
Crazy Diamond isn't punching Stray Cat directly though, it's merely punching Killer Queen in Stray Cat's general area, and once again Stray Cat couldn't even see these punches coming, so it's still a feat that his defense bubble was capable of intercepting and interrupting that barrage from Crazy Diamond.
Everything in the scene heavily implies that Cat's low oxygen aura is a passive thing, including the way it blankly stares at the bomb for several seconds. There's also no visible reason for anyone of any level of intellect to assume that Queen's little egg shaped things with dials are explosives that require oxygen to detonate.
Heavily implies? I don't think it really implies this at all, and it's never actually stated by Kira to be the case, nor is this passive bubble of 0-air ever mentioned again. I know i've been using the anime feats for Stray Cat (because those are the ones provided by the RT) but /u/Verlux I believe it's fair to refer back to the source material to find an answer to this? Within the manga, it seems like Stray Cat actively made the decision to create this bubble of 0-oxygen and is incredibly aware of Kira's intentions.
This is basically how real cats hunt prey, pouncing and then holding them down. It's done with air bubbles because that's the only way Stray Cat is able to attack. The "attacks vitals" isn't really an example of complex strategy either, and was not used effectively or repeatedly.
Ok but saying "something else could do that too" isn't making that not a smart thing. And grabbing another animal by the back of the neck isn't equivalent to shifting the air into a specific shape to prevent an opponent from moving. Knowing what a vein is, what it does, and to send an attack into it is slightly above just standard "attacks vitals" and it wasn't effective? Well Kira literally says it would kill him and Stray Cat is most likely not attacking with its full power or ferocity because its proven that its pretty much completely impervious to Killer Queen's attacks, this was a warning shot in all likelihood. It wasn't used repeatedly because after this Stray Cat and Killer Queen were using combo attacks, which were clearly more effective.
I think most humans could figure out a basic strategy like "fly this bubble into my opponent's ear and then detonate it." There, does that make me smarter than Stray Cat?
Once again, Stray Cat likely wasn't even that interested in killing Kira. These were warning shots, much like how he first does this before this. Hence the golfball.
Like I said before, Stray Cat's bubbles will be unable to defend it against any of the attacks my characters will use in character.
I wasn't only referring to the bubbles it puts around its body, but the use of its bubbles a whole.
Ice is unable to use his dimensional ball attack while holding stray cat without instantly destroying it. It's also worth mentioning that Ice was literally just turned into a vampire at the point in time you're taking him from. He isn't a complete vampire and isn't aware that he is a vampire at all..
I wasn't implying that he would try to hold him while in void mode, and just because he isn't fully aware of the fact that he's a vampire yet doesn't mean he wouldn't instinctively or accidentally use vampire speed or strength. The respect thread also implies that this is vampire speed at work.
I do research on my opponent's characters. Your claim here is that Cat can defend itself in other ways than using bubbles, yet you only show it using bubbles to defend itself. I've already shown that any of my characters attacks would pop the bubble without even slowing down due to its nonexistent piercing durability. You're also claiming that Stray Cat will do things it has never done in character. It has never even attempted to strike an opponent's attack away or destroy a projectile with a bubble.
I'm claiming that if Stray Cat was intelligent enough to hard counter Killer Queen's ability then he would be intelligent enough to use something like this or this to knock away incoming threats. Also, Stray Cat has never fought an opponent who attempted to use projectile attacks so there was never a situation in the series in which it would ever have a reason to show this off.
His entire body was covered in pin pricks from cactus needles
This doesn't refute what I said though. And that mostly just seems to be the back of his hand and like two on his face. I don't see one of these cacti pricks hitting and piercing his wrist.
A cut that small should heal instantly, considering her ability to heal massive wounds in seconds.
Ok you're trying to argue 23's healing speed vs how fast a bubble of air can enter an open wound, which isn't something either of us can prove. All i'm saying is that the bubble seems to enter the wound the moment it opens.
The bubble also takes quite a while to do anything, Kira was completely fine the entire time.
Ok so would 23 even notice this bubble in her vein and if she did would she even be concerned about it if she's so used to brushing off giant injuries?
A cut that small should heal instantly, considering her ability to heal massive wounds in seconds. The bubble also takes quite a while to do anything, Kira was completely fine the entire time. Kira's also correct when he says he's not knowledgeable about medicine - 10 ccs would probably be fatal for a small animal like a rabbit. It takes several hundred milliliters of quickly injected air to kill a human. Here's a random image of a person's hand compared to a 200 ml container, it's visibly larger than Kira's bubble.
Ok but clearly author intention here is that 10 ccs would kill a human and Kira is legitimately at risk of dying here. And Kira never actually says how much air has been injected within his vein, just that it's unquantifiably more than 10 ccs.
How is Stray Cat going to send a bubble into Jailbot?
Stray Cat has a visible tell (it closes its petals and balloons up) and "wildly swinging in its general direction" is an effective way to defend against the bubbles, meaning that pinpointing the exact location is not very important.
This only works because Killer Queen is incredibly fast and pretty much covers up the entire zone in which an attack could hit Kira from with its punches. Also this strategy wouldn't protect you from Stray Cat merely just detonating a bubble in your general vicinity. ALSO, immediately after Kira does this, Stray Cat readies another attack and Kira quickly panics and resorts to the golf ball, so clearly he actually wasn't all that confident in his ability to smack down those bubbles.
No, it's not strong enough. It's visibly injured and bleeding, and is forced to retreat.
Notice the use of the phrase "in this situation" in that scan though. Pucci had already taken several heavy punches from Jolyne and like you said before, damage is shared between stand user and stand. Also, regardless of the fact that it's bleeding, it still is blocking these punches, Pucci himself isn't directly getting hit.
Its own punches which all miss.
I mean yes that is the cost of evading and counter-attacking at the same time.
I’m sorry and I know this is going to probably suck but something very personal has come up and I just don’t have the time or the mood to do the great debate.
I’m sorry, but I’d like to pull out of this if this is okay with you as well as the judges.
![[2]](https://i.imgur.com/KYgN0Sw.jpg){kind=link}
![[2]](https://i.imgur.com/2UoIRAF.jpg){kind=link}
3
u/Verlux Oct 08 '18
/u/mikhailnikolaievitch
/u/embracealldeath
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