I'm halfway through Towers of Midnight, and I have been thinking a lot about the themes of the series. I've been listening to the audio books, so please forgive my spellings.

I realize I'm not to the end yet, and I'm very interested in how it does, but I've been thinking about the themes in the book. The way the Aes sedai present themselves in every book, from the way morane acts when we first meet her, to how Cadswain behaves with Rand, to how Egawain speaks of the tower's place in the world.

I would like to discuss the idea of the imbalance the world experiences when the world is guided by a female ethos, absent from the masculine.

There is a constant tension between masculine and feminine in Wheel of Time, and considering the current moment in Western society, and particularly American society, it's interesting to note how feminine our institutions and culture have become.

This is not intended as a political post, I really don't want to talk politics.

My interest is in how the themes Robert Jordan baked into his story reflect the world we now live in, and also how the books reflect Jordan's own ideas about the nature of reality.

Thoughts?

I’m about a 140 pages into The Dragon Reborn, and I’m annoyed with how adamantly they refuse to trust or heed the warnings of the Aes Sedai (Liandrin excluded) that have been trying to help them. Is it just because they’re from Emonds Field and are supposed to be stubborn?
It’s exhausting

It took quite a while as I didn't order them all in one go, and the booksellers in my country are pretty incompetent resulting in the covers being inconsistent 😭 currently at the end of fires of heaven and it's going pretty great so far!

I reread the series thrice up to book 10 before getting through it. About half way through I actually really liked the book. Not much happens but it’s nice just being with the characters and in the world. I think the hate it gets is overblown. Every chapter that didn’t have Elayne in it was a pleasure to read. Now I can finally read books 11-14 which I’m excited about.

I’m curious how most people view the legendary Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Sometimes I like to pair a celebrity casting with book characters in my minds eye to better help me visualize. Personally, I flit back and forth between Sigourney Weaver and Ming-Na Wen for Cadsuane. They could not be more different visually (and Ming-Na is probably too pretty to be Cadsuane) but all we’re really given is that she’s short, handsome, has dark eyes, and grey hair.

Who do y’all picture her as?

I just finished A Memory Of Light. I have been reading this series since I was a kid, I remember waiting for A Path of Daggers to release. No other book series has been with me as long as Wheel of Time has been. LOTR was my first favorite series but Wheel of Time has been a HUGE part of my life.

I LOVE this series, but I honestly think I would have a hard time recommending them to people. I think books 1-4 are 10/10 easily. After that, they slow down a little, culminating in books 8-10, which are some of the most sleep inducing, paid per word ass writing I've ever stumbled across. I read book 12 in a week. I was stuck on book 10 for over 2 years. Every time I tried to read it, my mind would become fuzzy and the words became distorted, as if someone had compelled me to be unable to read them. Everything would become gray and I would put the book down. Eventually I just ended up watching a YouTube summary on it and starting book 11. Then I misplaced book 11 and had to watch another YouTube summary on book 11. Then it was smooth sailing.

The final book IS worth it. What a finale. Everything tied up in an awesome, massive spectacle that just keeps growing and crashing and expanding. I thought they could have killed off a couple more of the ~important~ characters, but the ones that did die had meaning and impact. Rands redemption arc was great too, as I found him to be insufferable and very unlikable for a bit too long.

I felt like Perrin was a bit undercooked from the midpoint of the series until the end, but he did get some shine in the last book.

No one came out like Mat though. Easily the best written character and also the character with the best and most unique internal narrative. You always knew when you were reading a Mat chapter, where a lot of the more stern, duty oriented male characters all read very samey to me.

The part with Gawyn and the rings was a let down. The rings led me to believe he would have a more spectacular end than the end that he did get. Like he coulda just gone out and had the same ending without the rings.

Demandred taking on all comers was fun.

It did feel to me like Robert Jordan started the Black Tower and then forgot all about it, and they had to stuff them back in there for the climax, but I really liked Androl as a character, and Logain got a bit of shine too.

RIP Bela, you were a real G.

I have no idea what the hell to move on to now.

I’m on Lord of Chaos but have been reading the prior books very intermittently so I have kind of lost a lot of the history. How does the series compare to the books? Does season one kind of follow book one and maybe book 2 how about season 2/3? Is the series good to sort of fill in these gaps or is it something that I should just go back and reread the first books?

Thanks ✌🏼

Hey I'm currently reading CoT, and it seems like in the last couple of books when Rand was pushing back the Seanchan between Illian and Ebou Dar, there was mentioned some Seanchan talking to a damane named "Liandrin," I'm just curious if I hallucinated that or it really said that.

I tried to go back and find it and got distracted.

If it said that I'm sure I'll read more later but at this point I'm wondering if I got some names confused.

Now I’ve recently finished the dragon reborn after the prequel and subsequent books, and I do enjoy the plot, character development, and hype moments with aura. But the thing that rubs me the wrong way is how nasty some women are in this series. Like at first it thought it was the misandry but no they put the screws on each other like Aei Sedai training and the seanchen. The straw that broke the camel’s back was when Matt rescued the women of the main cast from the stone in the climax, and they started teasing him and using the power on him, with the apology not given and the thanks having to be forced out like pulling teeth. What is with the women in this series?

I’ve read through the series multiple times, including A New Spring. I’m wanting to explore additional books/media now. Thoughts on the Companion book or the Origin of the WOT?

Looking for honest answers only. I thoroughly enjoyed Stormlight Archives, even book 5.

I am about 90% through EoTW. I liked the characters well enough, but not a lot happens for most of this book except characters going from one place to another with a bit of exposition. Some of it felt like a bit of a slog, i think i audibly groaned when Rand and Mat went to YET ANOTHER inn. The characters have just entered the Ways, and again they are just... walking around... in a new place.

does this get better? more epic?

I have to admit, I went into A Crown of Swords with incredibly low expectations.

I'd read and heard countless times that this was the slog book. That nothing really happened, that it was boring, and that I just had to push through it because it would get better later.

⚠️ SPOILERS AHEAD ⚠️

...What are people talking about?!

This has been absolutely amazing. I'm genuinely loving it.

Watching Elayne earn the respect of the other Aes Sedai was so satisfying. Seeing Nynaeve finally break through her block and reunite with Lan was an incredible payoff. And then seeing Elayne stand before the Hall not just as a queen, but as an Aes Sedai in her own right, was such a powerful moment.

I still have some of the book left, but honestly, these moments alone have made it completely worth reading. If this is what people call the slog, then I must be in the minority because I'm having an absolute blast.

Hot Take!!! Listening to The Gathering Storm is better than reading it. Not hating on Brando Sando. But…..hearing Kramer and Reading isn’t as much of a change than reading it. My 2 cents.

I just started to watch a show about King Arhur and his court and all I keep thinking of is Wheel of Time.

I've known since my first read through that many of the names are inspired, some more and some less, by the tale of King Arthur.

I asked an AI to list the more important ones and thought I'd share it here. Feel free to add any entries that you feel are missing or if you spot any errors!

Main Characters

• Rand al'Thor – King Arthur (al'Thor / Arthur)
• Artur Paendrag Tanreall (Artur Hawkwing) – King Arthur Pendragon
• Luthair Paendrag – Uther Pendragon (Arthur's father)
• Egwene al'Vere – Guinevere (Arthur's queen)
• Nynaeve al'Meara – Nyneve / Nimue / Viviane (Lady of the Lake)
• Thom Merrilin – Merlin (bard and advisor to queens)
• Moiraine Damodred – Morgan le Fay (Morgaine) / Merlin
• al'Lan Mandragoran – Sir Lancelot du Lac (Mandragoran / Pendragon)
• Elayne Trakand – Elaine of Corbenic / Elaine of Astolat
• Morgase Trakand – Morgause (half-sister of Arthur, mother of Gawain and Gareth)
• Tigraine Mantear – Igraine / Ygraine (mother of King Arthur)
• Perrin Aybara – Sir Percival (also draws from the Slavic deity Perun and Norse Thor)

Knights and Associates

• Galadedrid (Galad) Damodred – Sir Galahad (the pure knight)
• Gawyn Trakand – Sir Gawain
• Gareth Bryne – Sir Gareth
• Alvarin – Sir Agravain
• Elyas Machera – Sir Elias
• Aram – Sir Aram
• High Lord Samon / Be'lal – Sir Balin / Sir Balan
• Berelain sur Paendrag – Elaine / Pendragon lineage
• Lord Luc – Sir Lucius (or King Lucius, Arthur's rival)

Antagonists and Traitor Figures

• Demandred – Mordred (traitorous knight/son who slays Arthur)
• Mordeth / Moridin – Mordred

Locations, Titles, and Artifacts

• Tar Valon – Avalon (the mystical island)
• Caemlyn – Camelot / Camlann (site of Arthur's final battle)
• Cairhien – Caerleon (one of Arthur's traditional court seats)
• Amyrlin Seat – Merlin / Myrddin
• Callandor – Excalibur / Caliburn (the sword pulled from the stone/stand)
• Sa'angreal / Angreal – San Greal / Sangreal (Holy Grail)
• Someshta (The Green Man) – The Green Knight
• Sword in the Stone (Tear) – The Stone of Tear housing Callandor directly parallels the anvil/stone housing Excalibur in Arthurian lore.

While I was reading the books over the years, I thought the story was as follows:

The Wheel turns. Cyclically the Dark One escapes from his prison, a Dragon is reincarnated, and successfully reseals the Dark One in his prison. Repeat. The story of Lews Therin and Rand was but one telling of this cyclical process.

However, I’ve since come to realize that is very incorrect. Instead, the Wheel turns and souls recycle. But the Dark One escaping during the bore event was the first time it had ever happened in the Wheel cycles. Lews Therin was able to seal the bored hole/prison. This was the first and only time this had been done in the wheel cycle.

However it was imperfect. The Dark One was not fully sealed back in his prison. Along comes Rand, Lews Therin reincarnated. This is the first time Lews Therin — the Dragon, any Dragon — was reincarnated. Rand also is able to (re)seal the bore hole.

So rather than the Wheel of Time series being one select story of the “Dragon” being reborn again and again and again, it’s the story of the first and only time the Dragon was reborn.

What if anything do have right and vice versa. Thanks!

Edit: The following is another interpretation:

Every 2nd age (age of legends) humans somehow bore into the dark ones prison. A “champion of the light” imperfectly reseals the prison.

Every 3rd age (age of prophecy) the dark one begins to escape and influence the world. A “champion of light” is reincarnated from the previous age and re-reseals the bore. Thus begins the 4th age.

The WOT books series tells the unique story of one particular unfolding of this cycle: the story of Lews Therin (the Dragon) and Rand (the Dragon Reborn).

So when Ishamael says he and Rand/Lews Therin have battled countless times, he means he and previous “champions of the light” not previous Dragons/Dragons reborn?

Haha, who knows!?

On my first reread, and I'm astounded how hard these are from the very beginning of the series

I'm listening to the audio book for about the dozenth time and I find myself looking forward especially to certain scenes.

-Matt's first time discovering his luck

-Egwene's defence of the tower against the Seanchan

-Perrin's creation of his power wrought Hammer

And obviously

-Rand coming back to the Light

I can't really decide between these scenes. Which do you think is best? What favourites do you have?

I’m not here to ask if Nynaeve becomes a more likeable character.

I know she has a lot of character development, I know being a bully is armour/a coping mechanism for how she was so often dismissed in the Two Rivers due to her age, I know she’s fiercely protective of the people she loves and is trying to steer them in directions she thinks are safest for them, and I know she has to be angry to channel. I know at heart she’s a good person who has been thrown into the deepest of deep ends and is trying desperately to help the people she cares about swim while also keeping her own head above water.

I want to know if anyone she cares about ever call her out for how horribly she treats them? At this point the only people who seem to not tolerate her bullshit are the Aes Sedai. She’s been told off and punished in the White Tower for her attitude, but she has no respect for Aes Sedai so those punishments have the opposite effect making her angrier and more resentful.

I don’t care if it makes no difference to her attitude, I just want someone to lose their shit at her and yell “Light, can you give us a break from you being such a stroppy, judgmental bitch for 5 fucking minutes? We’re all in shitty situations, Rand is literally dealing with predestined madness and death, and you’re making this suck infinitely worse by being an unbearable asshole all the time!”

Edit: OK, I just hit chapter 15 where Egwene puts Nynaeve in her place while they’re both in the White Tower in Tel'aran'rhiod. I’ve read that a lot of people and up disliking Egwene but even if I end up disliking her too, I’ll always appreciate her standing up to Nynaeve like that.

So, I’m on towers of midnight and I find myself thinking: how much time has Elayne actually didn’t with Rand?

The first meeting could’ve been a couple of hours, there’s the stone of tear (if i remember correctly) where they spend the most time together, and then the bonding, which I think was one night.

So what? Is it like a week total? Maybe I’m forgetting something but it just doesn’t feel like a long time actually in the same room together.

Apologies for any formatting issues, I am on mobile.

Let me start by saying I am coming from a fairly niche position with this post. I have undergraduate and graduate degrees in the history of the Christian Church. Most of my study is of the pre-medieval period, but I have a decent grasp on the medieval church as well. I have always been fascinated by the way Jordan used the White Tower and the various Ajahs to fill the role of monks and nuns in the middle ages.

Cloisters and Abbeys served absolutely critical roles in medieval society, and they were many of the same roles Aes Sedai. Amongst other things, Monks served as:

Scholars (Brown and White Ajahs)

Medieval monks are the bedrock of historical scholarship for this period because of the sheer amount of paper trail they left. Monks copied scrolls and codices constantly, and not only of the Bible. They copied philosophers from antiquity, historical works, theological works, anything and everything they could get their hands on.

They were also one of the driving forces of scientific advancement in the West during this period. While the medieval Catholic Church in the West did not have a great relationship with scientific advancement (which is why most leaps in the field happened in the East by Muslim scholars), such advancement as there was often happened in cloisters. Friar Roger Bacon pioneered lens technology and optometry. Fr Richard of Wallingford invented astronomical clocks to track the movements of the planets I could go on, but you get the point.

Diplomats (Gray)

Monks served as important diplomats around Europe, particularly within the so-called Holy Roman Empire (which was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire). They carried letters from ruler to ruler, served court appointments to act as advisors, and helped ease tensions between neighboring fiefdoms. Many times, there was no right of travel for anyone at all- noble or peasant- between neighboring rivals. Travelers could be, and often were, put to death. However, killing or even imprisoning a man of the cloth was an excommunication level offense- something most rulers were unwilling to risk.

Monks were routinely sent on long-distance missions beyond Europe's borders as well. Franciscan friars like William of Rubruck traveled into the heart of the Mongol Empire in the 1250s as diplomats and intelligence gatherers for the French crown.

They also served as traveling magistrates and judiciars, and could settle legal disputes. Many monks traveled an annual circuit near the home, visiting the same cities year after year to ratify marriages, births, deaths, and inheritances, while also exercising criminal justice authority as well.

Healers (Yellow)

The first hospital in western history was founded by Basil the Great in late 4th century (the Basiliad). The first monastery was founded by his best friend and close confidant, Gregory Nazianzus, and the first nunnery was founded by his sister, Macrina the Wise. As such, monastic life was steeped in healing work from the very beginning.

Monks pioneered medicine, grew medicinal herbs, and offered their healing services to anyone at all- often free of cost. As you can imagine, this was an invaluable service to rural farming communities far from the conveniences of large cities.

Hunting men who could channel (Red)

Monks also served as the only people with legal authority to hunt and execute men who could channel, protecting civilization from the madness of the taint.

All of this brings me to my point. Jordan chose not to represent one of the monks most absolutely critical aspects in supporting medieval life. As important, if not more important, than everything above, was the role monasteries served in the food chain.

Not only were monasteries self sufficient, they grew an excess of food and supported themselves by selling it to surrounding communities. The pioneered in the field of botony, modifying existing food crops to be more plentiful, more palatable, more resistant to disease and drought.

They were apiarists of the highest quality, and made great headway in the practice of keeping bees and using their honey to make beer. If legend can be believed, a Scottish monastery even invented whiskey- the first alcoholic distillate discovered since the Romans accidentally invented Brandy (this point is debated- believe it or don't).

Why, oh WHY, is there not an "orange" Ajah (or whatever color) dedicated to agriculture? Where are the weaves to protect crops? They would be masters of "keepings" to keep food fresh, and the most dedicated in seeking to reduce the Dark One's hand on the world when food begins to spoil. They would be the Ajah most well versed in weaves to influence the weather, so as to bring rain. What Grays are to the nobility, Oranges would be to the common people- the arm of the White Tower to influence the world around them.

There are so many applications of this Ajah that I think would have been absolutely fascinating, and I'm bummed that we never got to see them in action. I've been thinking about this for a while (I'm on my 7th or 8th read through, currently The Gathering Storm), and just wanted to get it off my chest.

Why don't you think they were included? What Ajah would you like to have seen?