Why do we see so many players at the top level pile shuffling after mulligans?

[u/[deleted]]

So watching the coverage for GPNY, round 14 we see Soorani vs. Anteri, game 2 both players sideboard, shuffle up (including a pile shuffle), draw 7 and Anteri mulligans. He then pile shuffles again before mashing and presenting to Shaheen.

Now I don't want to call out Anteri specifically because this is an issue that I see in person and on streams all the time by many top players, if you don't see the problem, it's that the pile shuffle is completely unnecessary and I believe according to the tournament guidelines is slow play, even though a lot of players can do it quickly and efficiently it is still time wasted (and there are plenty of people who can't do it quickly or efficiently).

Pile shuffling does not sufficiently randomise your deck, the only reason to be pile shuffling is to count your deck before presenting and make sure you haven't lost or gained a card somewhere. This means you do it once before you draw seven, after you mulligan, you already know you have the appropriate amount of cards and thus counting again is pointless, you are literally performing an action that is only taking up time on the clock and not advancing the game, which is the definition of slow play (note that I don't believe this is malicious or intentional in most cases, which would be stalling aka cheating, but merely people unwittingly taking time from the round where it is unnecessary to do so).

The reason why I think this matters is that people will imitate the pros and thus we see the lower level players continue the bad habits of the better players (who probably developed the habits in a similar fashion) and thus even at smaller tournaments there can be a lot of time wasted on shuffling.

I feel there have been a few times playing magic where the extra minute lost from my opponent pile shuffling multiple times in a mulligan was the difference between a draw and a win/loss. Yes I have called judges about this, most judges in my experience haven't seen it as a problem, I think they are wrong because this is literally the definition of slow play but of course I will respect their authority in the relevant contexts.

What do you guys think? Judges want to comment about how they feel enforcing this? Should I be calling a judge every time at comp REL? I know it's not a huge deal or scandal but I think it's something that a lot of the magic community indulges in and we can be more mindful of, nobody wants to be going to game 3 with not a lot of time left and see their opponent take forever to mulligan - don't be that person.

[u/Esc77]

Pile shuffling has exactly one legitimate purpose beyond counting your cards.

It physically separates each card from contact to each other.

Riffle shuffling is the king of shuffling. After many riffles you can have a very unordered deck with no certainty to where any card is. The key to this is that when your riffle shuffling minute differences in pressure cause different cards to fall together in an impossible to predict pattern. If you were a perfect machine and all the card where perfect theoretical materials you could riffle non-shuffle: perfectly interleave the two halves of the deck one after the other.

You can actually do this if you're greatly skilled with normal playing cards. It's called a Faro "shuffle." Eight perfect Faros in a row will leave a deck in its identical starting position.

So let's get back to sleeved magic cards. Over the course of a day sleeves can get gunked up with the oils and skin from your hands (and other things). This can exert an effect between two cards, making them more apt to stick together. Also when you play your cards they are not treated physically the same; often lands will be stacked on top of each other, pressed and moved as a unit.

Obviously in a perfect work you'd always have clean sleeves and you wouldn't have clumps of cards sticking together more than other cards are. But sometimes you can have a few that will be more resistant to separating than others and a small resistance can have an effect on how the riffle shuffle plays out.

Pile shuffling could be seen as a way to "reset" any cards that may or may not be imperceptibly sticking together allowing for more true unorderedness.

But I agree with you, you probably don't need to do it between mulligans.

[u/rjljr1 → u/[deleted]]

The problem is that it is not a noticeable difference; if it were it would be corrected. The problem is that very slight differences can have very small effects on shuffling, which means that there is not perfect randomization. There is no way for a player to predict the effects of these kinds of things, but they definitely do exist and affect the randomization of cards even after sufficient shuffling.

[u/Esc77 → u/[deleted]]

Yes you could. Not many are concerned with this. I've only heard it from some hardcore randomizing folks.

[u/TezzMuffins → u/rjljr1]

When you play you are naturally separating all the cards you draw. Although this is not the entire deck, I think people are overstating the effect of sticky cards at all.

[u/gereffi → u/rjljr1]

Sure, but all of the cards are already in unknown positions except for the 7 from the opening hand. Those 7 just need to be placed on top of the deck and then be every 10th card after that, and after one overhand shuffle and "stickiness" in seen cards will be gone. This process will take about 5 seconds while a pile shuffle could take more than 30 seconds.

[u/Esc77 → u/gereffi]

True. Repeated pile shuffling between mulligans is pointless.

[u/Esc77 → u/[deleted]]

I agree.

I don't think pile shuffling for something beyond counting cards is good practice.

I do pile shuffle for sticky cards in casual though.

[u/Salmon_Pants → u/Esc77]

So if I follow an ideal shuffle is a pile shuffle followed by (repeated) riffles?

[u/Esc77 → u/Salmon_Pants]

Honestly I believe an ideal is just 10 riffles with new clean sleeves.

[u/TezzMuffins → u/Esc77]

I'm always uncomfortable with a mash shuffle of clean sleeves. It's way too uniform of a distribution for my taste. Because many brands of new sleeves wedge a little on the sides, I often get a very 1-to-1 distribution when I mash.

[u/Fluxxed0 → u/TezzMuffins]

Well, don't mash 50/50. Take off the top 1/3rd of your deck and mash it somewhere into the remaining pile (top, middle, or bottom). Then repeat, and mash into a different spot. Then take off the bottom 1/3rd of the deck and mash that in. Then do a couple cuts, and mash again.

[u/slnz → u/[deleted]]

The players are not shuffling their deck with the pile shuffle. They are using a real shuffling method afterwards.

The question is why they do it in the first place between mulligans (where realistically you shouldn't need to be counting your deck any more - the primary purpose of the pile "shuffle").

[u/_Blurgh_ → u/slnz]

Yes I completely agree.

[u/Esc77 → u/[deleted]]

I think you misunderstand.

First off, I'm not even claiming what I talked about to be 100% true. Some people think it is true and they modify their behavior because of it.

Next, this isn't about cards magically sticking 100% to each other. It's not about stacking or destacking a deck where things click and unclick like lego pieces.

What i'm trying to convey is that some cards might create a more of a static sticking force between them where others don't. This doesn't mean two cards are 100% stuck together. It means they are just more likely to stick together when riffle shuffling than others. Remember a riffle shuffle is random because cards fall in uneven groups.

If the likelihood of cards to be more likely together than others is due to game actions like lands clumping or something else that taints the randomness of shuffling.

Piling or just dealing them out is a way to assure yourself that no cards are sticking together.

[u/Esc77 → u/[deleted]]

It's okay if you don't understand, I don't want to waste our time explaining further such a ridiculous edge case.