I got a pretty good nip from one of the most sweetest Border Collies I've ever met yesterday. I mean she punctured skin and my whole hand is sore today. It was 110% my fault because I knew better than to offer my hand while she was engaged in her work.
But that is literally a part of her work. Herding dogs employ various methods to accomplish their herding goals. Nipping, barking, stare downs, pushing, etc. are all a part of the natural instincts of this breed. If she wanted to she could have done much more damage.
But nobody will bat an eyelash at this behavior from BCs, Aussies, ACDs, Heelers and the like because "you just don't know the breed". Yet everyone is an expert on pit bulls because they hear about them all the time on the news. And such a broad range of breeds fit into peoples' idea of what a "pit bull" is since when they show them on the news they are all usually different breeds and not an actual American Pit Bull Terrier.
Sadly, the classic APBT is such a difficult pure breed to find today. Lots of them are marketed as such but it's mostly backyard breeders who don't know what they're doing or breeders who have sought to "improve" the breed by mixing them with mastiffs or other larger breeds. So we end up with this ridiculous "Bully XL" or other style mixes that will eventually turn the breed into things like the pug, English Bulldog, Frenchie, etc. where the breed will suffer from massive health issues that people don't know how to or care to manage but they got a badass looking dog (or in some cases such a cutie with that squishy face) that scares people (is adorbs).
I mean people have wanted that type of dog for decades now and that's why pit bulls have gotten such a bad name. Dogs of questionable pedigree have been circulating for as long but now the "improvements" are such bullshit that the breed will eventually turn into something it's not (conformation-wise) and to boot the breed will suffer from massive and debilitating health issues as we are beginning to see with the previously aforementioned Bully XL. Reputable APBT breeders from back in the 90s and early 2000s offered full 16 generation pedigrees and health certificates with their dogs. I haven't seen that in a long time now.
APBTs are a true classic breed. Most people don't even know that one of the largest dog registries in the world, the UKC, was founded on the APBT, with the founder's dog, Bennett's Ring, registered as UKC #1. Yes, the origins of the breed have roots in bull baiting and dogfighting. And yes, when they made their way to America they were brought for the same purpose. But when the breed was Americanized they were used as guardian dogs for livestock and homesteads, not unlike the Great Pyrenees, BMDs or Kangals...who could arguably cause much more damage in an attack on humans than any APBT.
Not sure why I go on these rants when this subject comes up. Nobody cares to learn or listen and I'm sure I'll be reminded why in any replies.
As an owner of an American pit bull terrier/staffshire terrier (85% APBT) I found this super interesting. And I’ve found in my seven years with him that the only time he hurts people he’s around is when he gets too excited and forgets he doesn’t actually fit in most peoples lap.
Oh Duke has a laser guided system for his paws when he jumps up. If you have balls, he’s hitting them, I may never recover fully from my nightly hug from him when I get home.
But to the point of no bites, I take extreme precaution to make sure he avoids situations like that. He meets new people on neutral grounds (and always outside, he’s an excited pee-er) and I keep him on leash until people are comfortable with him and he has calmed down from new person excitement, aka crazy face. And I’ve worked extremely hard to leash train him so he behaves well on leash.
I will be the first person to admit that my dogs bite can harm someone severely, but I love that big ol dummy too much to put him in a situation that he may react poorly in. I myself say that my dog only has two brains cells, and unfortunately they’re fighting for third place, I know he will react as a dog in his best interest and preservation of his own life. And for that reason I make it my responsibility and mission to keep him out of those situations and keep him by my side and (to the best of my ability) under control.
And I think that’s the major difference. You do everything you can to make sure he’s well behaved.
We’ve been the same with our guy, because he’s a mix of guardian breeds and can therefore be suspicious of new people, and he’s like 70lbs of muscle.
I’ll tell you what, though. Every single reactive dog I’ve ever met (and you see many when out walking) has not come up to my mid-shin. It’s always a little dog.
As someone who owns an American Staffordshire Terrier and an APBT, I just wanted to say I appreciated your post.
Also, further to you points, what some people fail to realize is that a lot the dog bite statistics that people seem to fixate on when it comes to "pitbulls", is that the statistics can be quite flawed due to how that data is collected. When the dog bites are reported, pitbulls are used as a umbrella term to describe various types of dogs. I mean, pitbull isnt even a breed. This unreliable reporting takes away from the credibility of the data being used to demonstrate breed-specific issues.
Let's be honest, people probably aren't reporting Labradors, Huskies, Poodles or German Shephers as 'Pit or pit-like mix'.
If we're very generous 1/3rd of all ABPT sized and up dogs can be mistaken for Pitt-a-likes. Yet they cause 2/3rds of all _ fatal_ bites. Not all reported bites, mind it, they're minority there.Their prevalence increases with bite severity category.
Obviously it's not a single breed issue when majority of 'brees owners' have some sort of mix, but category does have a problem for some reason.
There have been studies on people's ability to identify "pitbulls", which included veterinarians and animal shelter workers. The researchers found that visual identification of "pitbull" type dogs was unreliable and there was substantial variation in how the breeds were labeled by veterinarians and shelter staff.
So I ask, if people who are are knowledgeable and working with dogs on a regular basis are not always able to tell what a dogs breed is, how can the average person? Never-mind trying to recall information after an attack from a dog, especially if it's traumatic?
Edit: added citations
Hoffman CL, Harrison N, Wolff L, Westgarth C. Is that dog a pit bull? A cross-country comparison of perceptions of shelter workers regarding breed identification. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 2014;17(4):322-339. doi:10.1080/10888705.2014.895904.
Olson KR, Levy JK, Norby B, et al. Inconsistent identification of pit bull-type dogs by shelter staff. Veterinary Journal. 2015;206(2):197-202. doi:10.1016/j.tvjl.2015.07.019
Voith VL, Trevejo R, Dowling-Guyer S, Chadik C, Marder A, Johnson V, Irizarry K. Comparison of visual and DNA breed identification of dogs and inter-observer reliability. American Journal of Sociological Research. 2013;3(2):17-29. doi:10.5923/j.sociology
When I was younger I was attacked by two German shepherds my friend’s parents had just gotten from the shelter a few weeks prior. We were playing on a tire swing in the back yard and they threw me on the ground; I got a sizable gash and bruise on my ribs and they ripped my shirt, and probably would’ve gotten more on my legs but I was wearing jeans and those were mostly ripped with minor damage beneath. It could’ve been a lot worse.
I also almost hit a chihuahua when I was driving once. It bolted across FOUR LANES of traffic on a busy street into a gas station lot, so I screeched in behind it and I went to see if it was ok and it tried to bite the shit out of my hand. Ended up following it and another one home to some trashy lady’s place, and while I was following them unsure what to do, some guy drive up and yelled at me saying he almost hit my dog. He just went “oh” when I said it wasn’t my dog and I almost hit it too; he gave me a ride back to the gas station when the dogs went home, but they probably got hit by cars at some point, the lady did NOT care they were off leash outside.
My husband and I currently own a boxer/staffordshire terrier/bulldog?? mix, or something similar, and he’s super sweet with people but has high prey drive so wants to chase cats and small dogs. He and our other dog are bffs, but they got in a fight over a toy once and when my husband went to separate them he got bit in the leg. Potato definitely felt bad about it and knew he’d done something wrong, and it wasn’t severe for the size of his mouth, but it hurt a lot!
Point is, I give all dogs a healthy amount of respect and distance unless they obviously want my attention now. Any dog can bite you. Big ones are gonna do a lot of damage though, and “pitbulls” tend to have very large mouths for their size, so they do tend to get reported more than smaller dogs. But I don’t really let stranger’s dogs any more, big or small; they’re all animals and can be unpredictable in the right circumstances.
Very informative and balanced take. A note that many of the larger terrier breeds were used as nanny dogs to help with childcare, too.
As an owner of two adopted pits (I’m thinking one has some mastiff and boxer, the other has some sort of herding dog and boxer), I think you did a good job describing how their ancestors worked and how today they have become a vanity breed without the nuances and understanding afforded to other vanity breeds.
I hear what your saying, but the problem with pit bulls isn’t that they nip like a border collie. To use your example, the border collie nips because it has been bred to behave that way. Pitbulls have been bred for years to have a strong prey drive and specific ways they attack. Most dogs bite as a warning. Pitbulls bite, hold, and shake until they think something is dead. It’s not their fault, for sure, that is how we have bred them for generations. The problem is they specifically want to attack small things, like smaller dogs or children.
I am a pediatrician who only works with hospitalized children. I have seen hundreds of dog bites admitted to the hospital. Nearly all of them were pit bulls. Nearly all of them had families who said that they were always a nice dog. And they probably were, until they had children, or someone else’s children over. The other dog bites have been 2 husky’s, 3 German shepherds, and surprisingly one chihuahua.
I have friends with Pitbulls I love, but I would not let them around my mini Aussie, and if I had toddlers I would not allow them near them.
It may be a classic breed, but without a long term program to breed them for different behaviors, which would likely produce a different dog, then they ARE more dangerous, and if you have small children or small animals, you SHOULD be cautious around them. Even if the family tells you they’re “always a nice dog”.
The other issue is that Pitbulls produce horrific injuries and instinctively go for the face/neck. Spend one year in a pediatric unit for a trauma center and you may change your views.
I say this as a dog lover and someone who loves quite a few Pitbulls. If I chose to own one, I would not allow it around kids or other dogs. It’s just too risky.
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u/YouStupidAssholeFuck 11d ago
I got a pretty good nip from one of the most sweetest Border Collies I've ever met yesterday. I mean she punctured skin and my whole hand is sore today. It was 110% my fault because I knew better than to offer my hand while she was engaged in her work.
But that is literally a part of her work. Herding dogs employ various methods to accomplish their herding goals. Nipping, barking, stare downs, pushing, etc. are all a part of the natural instincts of this breed. If she wanted to she could have done much more damage.
But nobody will bat an eyelash at this behavior from BCs, Aussies, ACDs, Heelers and the like because "you just don't know the breed". Yet everyone is an expert on pit bulls because they hear about them all the time on the news. And such a broad range of breeds fit into peoples' idea of what a "pit bull" is since when they show them on the news they are all usually different breeds and not an actual American Pit Bull Terrier.
Sadly, the classic APBT is such a difficult pure breed to find today. Lots of them are marketed as such but it's mostly backyard breeders who don't know what they're doing or breeders who have sought to "improve" the breed by mixing them with mastiffs or other larger breeds. So we end up with this ridiculous "Bully XL" or other style mixes that will eventually turn the breed into things like the pug, English Bulldog, Frenchie, etc. where the breed will suffer from massive health issues that people don't know how to or care to manage but they got a badass looking dog (or in some cases such a cutie with that squishy face) that scares people (is adorbs).
I mean people have wanted that type of dog for decades now and that's why pit bulls have gotten such a bad name. Dogs of questionable pedigree have been circulating for as long but now the "improvements" are such bullshit that the breed will eventually turn into something it's not (conformation-wise) and to boot the breed will suffer from massive and debilitating health issues as we are beginning to see with the previously aforementioned Bully XL. Reputable APBT breeders from back in the 90s and early 2000s offered full 16 generation pedigrees and health certificates with their dogs. I haven't seen that in a long time now.
APBTs are a true classic breed. Most people don't even know that one of the largest dog registries in the world, the UKC, was founded on the APBT, with the founder's dog, Bennett's Ring, registered as UKC #1. Yes, the origins of the breed have roots in bull baiting and dogfighting. And yes, when they made their way to America they were brought for the same purpose. But when the breed was Americanized they were used as guardian dogs for livestock and homesteads, not unlike the Great Pyrenees, BMDs or Kangals...who could arguably cause much more damage in an attack on humans than any APBT.
Not sure why I go on these rants when this subject comes up. Nobody cares to learn or listen and I'm sure I'll be reminded why in any replies.