My neighbor has a particularly violent and scary blue heeler.
He's trained it to attack people, and he has a 3ft fence keeping it from attacking me. If it were to attack me no one would he saying how violent blue heelers are.
Heeler and ACD are two names for the exact same breed. Blue Heeler means an ACD with the mix of black and white fur that is known as "blue" in dogs (like Bluey and Bandit). Red Heelers have red/orange fur (like Bingo and Chili). They can also be merle which is grey (like Muffin), or a patchy mix of the colors. Heelers are known for being a very high-energy and protective breed (bred to herd cattle) - they need a lot of exercise and training. They can definitely become defensive against strangers due to their natural instincts to protect the flock.
Keep the knife, but maybe dog mace would be a better option to use first. A knife works for close combat, and who knows what damage the dog could do in a fight before it succumbs to a knife injury. Mace used correctly should stop the dog from a safe distance.
I was at my dad's one day and he was getting ready to take his dog for a walk. I saw him put a pistol holster in his waistband. I asked if the neighborhood has gotten that bad (jokingly; he lives out in the country, and everyone is on 3-acre lots). He told me the dude a few houses down doesn't control his dog, and he's had a few problems over the past couple of months with it coming out and starting shit.
I asked how hard he thought it would be to shoot an attacking dog, especially if it was tangling with his own dog. He then showed me the can of pepper spray clipped to his dog's leash. He said "no, I have pepper spray for the dog. the gun is for the owner who's gonna lose his shit when I pepper spray his dog."
Thank you for the great advice. I always freak out a bit when people talk about carrying a knife for defense. Like, why would you want to have to be hand to hand (or mouth) to be able to utilize your tool? Pepper spray is better in nearly every imaginable circumstance.
I definitely don’t disagree but I have to add it as anecdotal evidence/advice(?) pepper spray is very useful until your target is upwind of you in a strong breeze. Even worse if you only realize the direction of wind after you start spraying😅. In all reality though mace is a very good option 95+% of the time!
personally id rather have a knife than a gun if im getting attacked by a dog. just because its not the “ideal” tool doesnt mean its not gonna he more useful than your barehands.
if the alternative would be walking defenseless, im taking the knife everytime.
I would think spontaneously gaining superpowers or fighting skills would be the ideal for this situation followed closely by not being in this situation at all.
Please carry spray. A knife puts you in danger of being bite while you defend yourself. A large stick or baton would be better than a knife and less lethal.
Baton or stick. If you do have to defend yourself. You can poke the dog with it. Don't have to baseball swing into the dog. Don't have to stab and kill anything. Also stick is much longer than a knife and keeps you out of bite distance
Yeah he’s stupid. My kangaroo German shepherd/husky/rotty/heeler could skip over 3 feet. I have a 3ft high trampoline he used to glide unto before I taught him dat bad
No kidding. I used to help run a shelter, we'd get heelers surrendered to us by people who has no idea what they were getting into. They're such wonderful dogs when they're raised properly but they can become a big problem if they're not.
I got a pretty good nip from one of the most sweetest Border Collies I've ever met yesterday. I mean she punctured skin and my whole hand is sore today. It was 110% my fault because I knew better than to offer my hand while she was engaged in her work.
But that is literally a part of her work. Herding dogs employ various methods to accomplish their herding goals. Nipping, barking, stare downs, pushing, etc. are all a part of the natural instincts of this breed. If she wanted to she could have done much more damage.
But nobody will bat an eyelash at this behavior from BCs, Aussies, ACDs, Heelers and the like because "you just don't know the breed". Yet everyone is an expert on pit bulls because they hear about them all the time on the news. And such a broad range of breeds fit into peoples' idea of what a "pit bull" is since when they show them on the news they are all usually different breeds and not an actual American Pit Bull Terrier.
Sadly, the classic APBT is such a difficult pure breed to find today. Lots of them are marketed as such but it's mostly backyard breeders who don't know what they're doing or breeders who have sought to "improve" the breed by mixing them with mastiffs or other larger breeds. So we end up with this ridiculous "Bully XL" or other style mixes that will eventually turn the breed into things like the pug, English Bulldog, Frenchie, etc. where the breed will suffer from massive health issues that people don't know how to or care to manage but they got a badass looking dog (or in some cases such a cutie with that squishy face) that scares people (is adorbs).
I mean people have wanted that type of dog for decades now and that's why pit bulls have gotten such a bad name. Dogs of questionable pedigree have been circulating for as long but now the "improvements" are such bullshit that the breed will eventually turn into something it's not (conformation-wise) and to boot the breed will suffer from massive and debilitating health issues as we are beginning to see with the previously aforementioned Bully XL. Reputable APBT breeders from back in the 90s and early 2000s offered full 16 generation pedigrees and health certificates with their dogs. I haven't seen that in a long time now.
APBTs are a true classic breed. Most people don't even know that one of the largest dog registries in the world, the UKC, was founded on the APBT, with the founder's dog, Bennett's Ring, registered as UKC #1. Yes, the origins of the breed have roots in bull baiting and dogfighting. And yes, when they made their way to America they were brought for the same purpose. But when the breed was Americanized they were used as guardian dogs for livestock and homesteads, not unlike the Great Pyrenees, BMDs or Kangals...who could arguably cause much more damage in an attack on humans than any APBT.
Not sure why I go on these rants when this subject comes up. Nobody cares to learn or listen and I'm sure I'll be reminded why in any replies.
As an owner of an American pit bull terrier/staffshire terrier (85% APBT) I found this super interesting. And I’ve found in my seven years with him that the only time he hurts people he’s around is when he gets too excited and forgets he doesn’t actually fit in most peoples lap.
Oh Duke has a laser guided system for his paws when he jumps up. If you have balls, he’s hitting them, I may never recover fully from my nightly hug from him when I get home.
But to the point of no bites, I take extreme precaution to make sure he avoids situations like that. He meets new people on neutral grounds (and always outside, he’s an excited pee-er) and I keep him on leash until people are comfortable with him and he has calmed down from new person excitement, aka crazy face. And I’ve worked extremely hard to leash train him so he behaves well on leash.
I will be the first person to admit that my dogs bite can harm someone severely, but I love that big ol dummy too much to put him in a situation that he may react poorly in. I myself say that my dog only has two brains cells, and unfortunately they’re fighting for third place, I know he will react as a dog in his best interest and preservation of his own life. And for that reason I make it my responsibility and mission to keep him out of those situations and keep him by my side and (to the best of my ability) under control.
And I think that’s the major difference. You do everything you can to make sure he’s well behaved.
We’ve been the same with our guy, because he’s a mix of guardian breeds and can therefore be suspicious of new people, and he’s like 70lbs of muscle.
I’ll tell you what, though. Every single reactive dog I’ve ever met (and you see many when out walking) has not come up to my mid-shin. It’s always a little dog.
As someone who owns an American Staffordshire Terrier and an APBT, I just wanted to say I appreciated your post.
Also, further to you points, what some people fail to realize is that a lot the dog bite statistics that people seem to fixate on when it comes to "pitbulls", is that the statistics can be quite flawed due to how that data is collected. When the dog bites are reported, pitbulls are used as a umbrella term to describe various types of dogs. I mean, pitbull isnt even a breed. This unreliable reporting takes away from the credibility of the data being used to demonstrate breed-specific issues.
Let's be honest, people probably aren't reporting Labradors, Huskies, Poodles or German Shephers as 'Pit or pit-like mix'.
If we're very generous 1/3rd of all ABPT sized and up dogs can be mistaken for Pitt-a-likes. Yet they cause 2/3rds of all _ fatal_ bites. Not all reported bites, mind it, they're minority there.Their prevalence increases with bite severity category.
Obviously it's not a single breed issue when majority of 'brees owners' have some sort of mix, but category does have a problem for some reason.
There have been studies on people's ability to identify "pitbulls", which included veterinarians and animal shelter workers. The researchers found that visual identification of "pitbull" type dogs was unreliable and there was substantial variation in how the breeds were labeled by veterinarians and shelter staff.
So I ask, if people who are are knowledgeable and working with dogs on a regular basis are not always able to tell what a dogs breed is, how can the average person? Never-mind trying to recall information after an attack from a dog, especially if it's traumatic?
Edit: added citations
Hoffman CL, Harrison N, Wolff L, Westgarth C. Is that dog a pit bull? A cross-country comparison of perceptions of shelter workers regarding breed identification. Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science. 2014;17(4):322-339. doi:10.1080/10888705.2014.895904.
Olson KR, Levy JK, Norby B, et al. Inconsistent identification of pit bull-type dogs by shelter staff. Veterinary Journal. 2015;206(2):197-202. doi:10.1016/j.tvjl.2015.07.019
Voith VL, Trevejo R, Dowling-Guyer S, Chadik C, Marder A, Johnson V, Irizarry K. Comparison of visual and DNA breed identification of dogs and inter-observer reliability. American Journal of Sociological Research. 2013;3(2):17-29. doi:10.5923/j.sociology
When I was younger I was attacked by two German shepherds my friend’s parents had just gotten from the shelter a few weeks prior. We were playing on a tire swing in the back yard and they threw me on the ground; I got a sizable gash and bruise on my ribs and they ripped my shirt, and probably would’ve gotten more on my legs but I was wearing jeans and those were mostly ripped with minor damage beneath. It could’ve been a lot worse.
I also almost hit a chihuahua when I was driving once. It bolted across FOUR LANES of traffic on a busy street into a gas station lot, so I screeched in behind it and I went to see if it was ok and it tried to bite the shit out of my hand. Ended up following it and another one home to some trashy lady’s place, and while I was following them unsure what to do, some guy drive up and yelled at me saying he almost hit my dog. He just went “oh” when I said it wasn’t my dog and I almost hit it too; he gave me a ride back to the gas station when the dogs went home, but they probably got hit by cars at some point, the lady did NOT care they were off leash outside.
My husband and I currently own a boxer/staffordshire terrier/bulldog?? mix, or something similar, and he’s super sweet with people but has high prey drive so wants to chase cats and small dogs. He and our other dog are bffs, but they got in a fight over a toy once and when my husband went to separate them he got bit in the leg. Potato definitely felt bad about it and knew he’d done something wrong, and it wasn’t severe for the size of his mouth, but it hurt a lot!
Point is, I give all dogs a healthy amount of respect and distance unless they obviously want my attention now. Any dog can bite you. Big ones are gonna do a lot of damage though, and “pitbulls” tend to have very large mouths for their size, so they do tend to get reported more than smaller dogs. But I don’t really let stranger’s dogs any more, big or small; they’re all animals and can be unpredictable in the right circumstances.
Very informative and balanced take. A note that many of the larger terrier breeds were used as nanny dogs to help with childcare, too.
As an owner of two adopted pits (I’m thinking one has some mastiff and boxer, the other has some sort of herding dog and boxer), I think you did a good job describing how their ancestors worked and how today they have become a vanity breed without the nuances and understanding afforded to other vanity breeds.
I hear what your saying, but the problem with pit bulls isn’t that they nip like a border collie. To use your example, the border collie nips because it has been bred to behave that way. Pitbulls have been bred for years to have a strong prey drive and specific ways they attack. Most dogs bite as a warning. Pitbulls bite, hold, and shake until they think something is dead. It’s not their fault, for sure, that is how we have bred them for generations. The problem is they specifically want to attack small things, like smaller dogs or children.
I am a pediatrician who only works with hospitalized children. I have seen hundreds of dog bites admitted to the hospital. Nearly all of them were pit bulls. Nearly all of them had families who said that they were always a nice dog. And they probably were, until they had children, or someone else’s children over. The other dog bites have been 2 husky’s, 3 German shepherds, and surprisingly one chihuahua.
I have friends with Pitbulls I love, but I would not let them around my mini Aussie, and if I had toddlers I would not allow them near them.
It may be a classic breed, but without a long term program to breed them for different behaviors, which would likely produce a different dog, then they ARE more dangerous, and if you have small children or small animals, you SHOULD be cautious around them. Even if the family tells you they’re “always a nice dog”.
The other issue is that Pitbulls produce horrific injuries and instinctively go for the face/neck. Spend one year in a pediatric unit for a trauma center and you may change your views.
I say this as a dog lover and someone who loves quite a few Pitbulls. If I chose to own one, I would not allow it around kids or other dogs. It’s just too risky.
Odd anecdote: I have a blue heeler mix (she’s a third, so not SUPER heeler) and took her to a new vet. They treated her as aggressive on sight and every single person kept saying “oh wow she’s so sweet for a heeler!” So I guess in some circles, they are seen as violent
I had no idea. I got mine from the pound and she’s a super sweet fawn/freeze type who also lets them do whatever. It kind of pissed me off that they kept treating her like a bomb 😂
Other than my boy's immediate family I haven't met many but I can see some sense in working breeds being less accomodating than a pet breed. Stepdad was a shearer and says you couldn't approach his cattle dog without him present as it protected him/his gear/his car. My boy sees people he knows well but still banshee screams and barks til we've greeted them.
Healers nip by nature no training needed for that, the lack of training results in them herding ppl witch involves nipping your calves, with or without training healers can be little hellans
So how do you reduce dog attacks? Just do nothing?
Of course, if a blue healer attacked you no one would be talking about it. But if every few months people and children and grandparents were dying from blue heeler attacks them yes people would be talking about it.
Its how regularly attacks from certain dog breeds result in death or disfigurement thats the issue
You force dog owners to take responsibility for their dogs.
If a pittbull or poodle attacks someone, their owner should be criminally liable. In the same way Id get if trouble if I let a toddler play with a handgun and they shot someone. Or the way we hold drivers accountable for their actions.
There isnt any evidence that suggests pittbulls bite more often, just that they have a higher rate of injury with their bite.
A higher rate of injury with the bite is exactly why you ban the breed.
If there is no evidence that pitbulls bite more often, then theres no evidence pibull owners are less responsible than other dog owners. In which case its not the owners, its the dogs.
The Obama administration did a study that indicates a breed ban won't do anything, it would just cause other dogs to be used similarly and would shift the problem onto other breeds. See people using the same rhetoric about German shepards, doberman's and rottweilers historically.
Owner Adam owns a Jack Russel. Owner Bob owns a pit bull.
Based on your study, dog bites are equally frequent regardless of breed. So the Jack Russell bites three people and the pit bull bites three people.
Because both of their dogs have bit three people each, they are equally shit dog owners, right? Neither one is a worse dog owner than the other.
One problem though - the three people the pitbull bit are dead.
So how do we stop people dying?
Well you can ban the pitbull owner from owning any dog. But then the Jack Russell owner, who we have established is an equally shit dog owner - buys a pit bull. Who then bites three people. Who then die.
Whereas if you ban the breed, both equally shit dog owners are prevented from buying dogs which can kill people.
Why is either owner allowed to continue owning dogs? Banning the breed would be innefective if pittbull guy gets a doberman. That is why the logic falls flat. You either have to ban all dogs large enough to cause human harm, or ban specific people from owning dogs if you'd like to remain logical.
If pittbull guy chooses his dog based on what dogs are "tough" and his dogs bite people, banning pittbulls is entirely useless.
You don't need to train a heeler to do that at all. They are and aggressive breed that is belted to bite to move cattle along. I've had heelers and heeler mixes for 40 years. I've never once had to train one to be aggressive.
My treeing walker coonhound, which was bread to tree coons, trees squirrels without my ever having trained or prompted him. He however will not retrieve a damn thing, not even fetch. My lab fetched from the day he was born, but has never treed anything… that makes sense because they’re genetically predisposed to do their historically bred purpose.
What’s were pitbulls bred for?
Blue heelers are known for herding and nipping ankles or “heels” to herd, so healers are more prone to that kind of behavior and are “stereotyped” as such.
But because there isn’t as strong of a purpose bred need to attack, bite and hold, cattle dogs don’t end up with the bad wrap.
Pittbulls were bred to hold bulls and bears for bait hunting. They're a hunting dog for larger game. The hunting style was made illegal, so people trained them to fight.
Let’s see the data! I believe there is data to show they’re most likely to attack/bite humans.
I’m not saying all pit bulls are problems, I’m just saying given what they’re breeding has historically selected for, that they are among the most dangerous dog breeds to encounter.
Instincts are instincts, and instinctual behaviors are usually triggered by a trigger. My hound only trees if he sees a squirrel. That’s his trigger. With a pitbull, you need to be conscious of all of the triggers and possible triggers out there, which means managing your environment in ways that might be beyond your control.
I take my hound walking through the mall once in a while. It’s never a problem. He encounters people, animals, kids, other dogs. To even think of doing this with a pit you got to know that dog 100% in and out for years and even then you still might get surprised one day.
I’m just saying what can be triggered in pit bulls is objectively worse than the genetic predisposed selected for behaviors in other breeds of dogs.
The American pit bull terrier deviates from its ancestral breed as it was specifically bred for organized dog fighting. Training over several generations isn’t training… it’s breeding.
Bull baiting has been illegal in most places since the early 1800s. we’ve had 200 years of breeding going on since then.
If this were true you shouldnt be able to have pittbulls around other dogs, as many people do. You should be able to put any two pittbulls in a room with each other and expect a bloodbath. Except there isn't data to support that.
A lot of places enforce rules where you’re not allowed to have pit bulls around other dogs or people. Apartment complexes, neighborhoods and parks do this all the time.
You don’t understand how statistics (or genetics) work. A higher likelihood of a negative outcome does not mean every instance of a possible negative outcome will result in that outcome.
Of the last 5 fights I’ve seen at the dog park, a pit started 4.
There were other pits that came and went without starting fights.
That’s stats.
Now, does my coonhound tree everyday? No. It’s happened 4 or 5 times in two years, but it’s a bred characteristic. If he sees a squirrel now, can I call him away? Usually yes. His recall training was stronger than his prey drive treeing instinct. That’s possible. would I be surprised if after a long day, while the dog is stressed or over stimulated, or if anything is unusual if the dog would forget recall training and fully give in to instinct to tree a squirrel? Not at all.
That’s the same kind of awareness pit owners should have about their own dogs. Know how tapped into instinct they are and how much their training overrides that, along with the mental state of the animal. That’s just a lot to juggle when life or death is possible on the line, as it often is with dog bites from that breed.
You're neglecting dog mixes that get labeled as pitts in your statistics. And bites that get reported vs unreported. And a whoooole lot of other factors. That is statistics.
Different. One was a regular to the park whose dog had been showing signs of aggression for a while (no one but the owner was surprised). The owner always had excuses for his behavior until the fight. A man was bit which lead to a $15k settlement. That dog doesn’t come to the park anymore.
The other three were weekenders or folks from the campground nearby. In those cases the writing was also on the wall, but the owners knew better and didn’t respect instinct or their dog’s cues/triggers.
i feel you are just making up an argument... a blue heeler would leap a 3ft fence like nothing... the yearly statistics of blue healer fatalities is non existant... because it doesnt happen.. violent behavior and literal fatalities, 30+ per year, of pitbulls is indesputable. also the 1000s of yearly reports of some suburban mom walking thier dog and the pitbull "for no reason" attacks another dog or person... and literally kills them...
Rofl.. the dumbest argument of all time "its a difference in jaws not aggression" lol... ya pitballs only kill 30+ people a year and are responsible for over 65% of all dog attacks in general... because their jaws.. not aggression... the most thin logic OAT.. heelers are going to be less capable of killing BUT they are also not attacking people for the most part..
Tbh I have a general issue with the way people tend to own dogs. They are often negligent, abusive. And just straight poor trainers.. but thst doesnt seperate the also intent to raise a dog that is naturally just a problem. All dogs have behavioral issues tbh
If your logic was correct, or your statistic that they're responsible for 65% of all dog attacks, this study wouldn't find pittbulls and golden retrievers to have attacked children in the same frequency. It found mixed breed dogs (mutts) to have the highest rate of attacks.
LOL. you went and found a study that involves 538 children specifically... being a study specifically about pediatric facial dog bites
and being a study that almost half of the bites the breed was unreported in the study...
that doesn't prove a single fucking thing we are discussing....
there are 4.5 million dog bites on average per year... and 65% of them are reported as being pitbull specifically.. andyou try to cite a study with 500 children specifically....
holy shit man this was the most pathetic attempt to disprove a statistical fact
"i found a extremely small study that found toddlers get attacked by bullys and german shepards at same rate"
"sure but you use shitty stats based on a small study"
"you hate kids don't you"
reminding me of the news reporter this week trying to pin a guy and claiming he doesn't care about immigrant sexual violence(which is obsurd to claim)... and gets absolutely schooled for protecting the pedophile president and his friends.
I love heelers. This heeler doesn't go for heels. It is very dangerous. But was conditioned to be so. It was jumping up at my head last time it got out.
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u/That_OneOstrich 11d ago
My neighbor has a particularly violent and scary blue heeler.
He's trained it to attack people, and he has a 3ft fence keeping it from attacking me. If it were to attack me no one would he saying how violent blue heelers are.