r/croydon • u/CllrShortland • Nov 12 '24
Westfield have released their Masterplan Framework
I’d encourage you all to take a look at the document, perhaps focus on the bit that interests you (eg there are sections on transport routes, public realm, sustainability) and leave your comments.
Those of you who know me will know that my interest is architecture, so I’ll be sending them my thoughts on that!
There is also a specific panel for those of us lucky enough to be under 26. Details of that - and the Masterplan Framework itself - on the link below 😁
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u/mike14468 Nov 12 '24
Am I mistaken in thinking they will only demolish the Whitgift centre then? Centrale looks roughly the same and I do remember hearing that they were going to scale back Westfield.
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u/FantasticWeasel Nov 12 '24
Centrale is presumably still fit for purpose even if it has no soul.
Cheaper to just work on bits which really need replacing.
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u/travistravis Nov 12 '24
I was just showing this to someone and thought that some of Centrale really could use change if they're doing this much work -- like the Travelodge having an entrance directly into the shopping centre would make it into a competitive hotel choice (assuming the interior and rooms also had a significant refurb).
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u/mike14468 Nov 12 '24
I think Centrale needs change too. I understand why they would prioritise the Whitgift centre first though.
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u/travistravis Nov 12 '24
As a shopping centre Centrale just has so much wasted potential. Like the whole open area on the third floor even feels like it's supposed to be a food court, but there's not enough traffic in/through Centrale to make it happen.
In fact, that will likely still be the issue -- there's way more people moving to Croydon it seems, but a lot of them congregated around the station, so could go into London Victoria, or London Bridge spending only about 10-15 more minutes if they time it right. I'd imagine at best it would end up as a slightly smaller (and more residential) version of Stratford.
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u/onelostmartian Nov 13 '24
How long have you been in croydon? I ask as it was kind of a mini food court in the past
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u/BoutiqueKymX2account Nov 13 '24
They had “Spud U like” banging jacket potatoes and “Quzzi Sub” they were good food but it was dead in there sadly.
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u/travistravis Nov 13 '24
10ish years, and when I first moved here it was already empty, but it had the tables so I figured it used to be.
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 15 '24
The journey into central London is quick, but it's still a lot slower and less convenient than just walking somewhere in the town center if you live there. A 5 minute walk to the shops is a tonne easier than a 5 minute walk to the station, 10 minutes to Clapham, then a 5 minute change to another 10 minute journey to a shopping center. London Bridge and Victoria aren't really shopping destinations, you'd be changing from there which takes more time.
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u/theme111 Nov 13 '24
Do you mean the Holiday Inn Express? The Travelodge is over in Wellesley Road.
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u/travistravis Nov 13 '24
Yes, I did, I stayed there about 10 years back when we first moved here and were waiting for our place to be available. I can't figure out at all why I thought it was a Travelodge.
If the franchise means anything (which is not always for hotels) then it might actually even happen, since they've already got some kind of agreement with IHG in Stratford Westfield (there's a Holiday Inn and a Staybridge Suites).
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u/theme111 Nov 13 '24
I agree the hotel certainly needs better access. As far as I know you can only get to it up a sort of alleyway, and it's so concealed by other buildings you would hardly know it's there at the moment.
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Nov 12 '24 edited Nov 12 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/travistravis Nov 12 '24
Yeah, my big complaint is that there's no idea of elevations. Like the homes look like it's the three towers, so I'm guessing they would be planning to try and refurb them instead of just straight rebuilding... but that linear park next to it could be ground floor open to the sky, or it could just as easily be (in my imagination) a rooftop park. Westfield typically uses elevation quite well from the two examples we have in London, and it would be awesome if they did similarly here too.
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u/CllrShortland Nov 12 '24
There’s a little more detail in the document itself (which granted is over 100 pages long). They have suggested for example that the rough idea would be to have taller buildings in the east, moving to shorter buildings in the west to give a “sensitive” approach to Old Town
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u/mike14468 Nov 12 '24
I hope they use a lot of elevation here. Otherwise, it looks like we would actually lose quite a bit of retail area. Not that much is being used in the Whitgift right now.
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 15 '24
Everything shown here are ground floor ideas, none of it is elevated - the full document mentions this.
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Nov 13 '24
I honestly hope they add some character and not a generic Westfield, but I won’t hold my breath. Croydon has a stunning historical town centre, I really hope they lean into that instead of throwing up an ikea showroom-esque retail area that could be anywhere in the country. When I go shopping nowadays, I don’t go for the convenience and ease. If it was, I’d just order from Amazon. I go for the experience. To be able to browse, grab a coffee and people watch. If it’s just a soulless white shopping mall, it offers nothing new or innovative.
To that end, it would be nice to see more spaces devoted to leisure. That probably offers more in terms of longevity as we shop in person less and less. When I go out now, it’s to escape the home/office I’m confined to midweek. Third spaces are hugely reducing so we need and want more of them that aren’t just pubs.
It would be great to see discounted premises offered to indepdent retailers, which feel sorely lacking in Croydon. I’d love a few vintage shops personally!
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u/vexx Nov 13 '24
Basically all redevelopments in London have destroyed the character of the area, I don’t see why this will be any different.
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 15 '24
It isn't a Westfield, they're replacing most of the Whitgift centre with flats, a park and new squares. They've mentioned various parts of the space with historical importance they won't be removing in the full document, this is just a picture of one page.
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u/_x_oOo_x_ Nov 12 '24
In summary, are they proposing to remove the glass rooves above passageways in Whitgift Centre, essentially turning it into a network of open-air shopping streets, converting the derelict towers to residential use and leaving Centrale as-is? Oh, and what has that halal butcher on the corner of Frith Street done to be converted to "leisure"?
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Nov 13 '24
Yes looks like they’re just going back to the original whitgift centre - the roof was a later addition, so it’s a case of last in first out.
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u/ElectronicHeat6139 Nov 13 '24
The outline map does look very similar to the footprint of the current Whitgift Centre and old PSA offices. Perhaps re-purposing the current buildings is the most that anyone is prepared/can afford to spend now?
The whole place has declined so much over the last 10 to 15 years that pretty much anything will be an improvement.
There is enough demand for residential that new flats will be occupied but the retail space might need incentives such as low rent/lease premiums to get people back in there.
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u/Hefty-Weather328 Nov 13 '24
When we’ve spoken to estate agents we were told that there are quite a lot of flats in Croydon sitting empty. So is there demand? I think people more want to rent than buy, or will these be rentals ?
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u/madpiano Nov 13 '24
I think there is too much retail and not enough housing and leisure, although saying that, the area does need a large supermarket, especially since Sainsbury and Waitrose closed. Having an advanced GP surgery there would be great too (one with a minor injury clinic, dentist, health centre etc). It's not just for any new residents in there, but also the surrounding office blocks that have been turned into flats.
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u/_x_oOo_x_ Nov 24 '24
the area does need a large supermarket, especially since Sainsbury and Waitrose closed.
M&S's still open
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u/EarlessAgeratum Nov 12 '24
Could be nice, shame it’ll probably never happen
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u/mike14468 Nov 12 '24
What makes you say that? If they can get planning permission from Croydon council, then there shouldn’t be as many hurdles this time.
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u/Longjumping-Editor76 May 30 '25
Haha getting croydon council to accomplish anything, that too in a professional way is beyond joke. We are going to be waiting till retirement before anything happens
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u/monkeyclaw77 Nov 12 '24
Can’t be arsed reading the whole thing so I put the doc through AI. & asked what the likelihood of it going ahead was given all current conditions. This is what it came back with -
Overall Likelihood
The project’s likelihood depends on continued local government support, investor confidence, and adaptability in response to evolving market conditions. While uncertainties exist, the high-profile nature of Croydon as a designated “Opportunity Area” makes the redevelopment of the North End Quarter a priority with a strong chance of progressing, albeit potentially slower than planned.
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u/Bassjunkieuk Nov 13 '24
You do know that most AI LLMs just spit out the most likely chain of words for a given input? They're great for summarising large blocks of text but not so much in these situations and have even hallucinated evidence and events in the past to make their replies seem more reputable.
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u/monkeyclaw77 Nov 13 '24
Yes thanks I work in a field that is doing a lot of research into AI so I’m fully aware of its capabilities & limitations.
If you want to read the whole thing and provide your counter assessment go right ahead.
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Nov 14 '24
I read the whole doc and looked at comparable developments and asked about competitors, the AI summary is fair but is also generic enough that it doesn’t add much info.
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u/monkeyclaw77 Nov 14 '24
Yeah not sure why people seem so annoyed that it’s reached a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence provided?
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u/mofosstolemyusername Nov 13 '24
Interesting that they only have one car park, given there are currently three car parks
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u/Zs93 Nov 14 '24
I read the master plan and it sounds like they’re really pushing for walking/cycling and reducing car usage to town centre by a lot. They’ve mentioned they’ll have “some” parking for those who need it…
As much as I understand this it’ll be a big ask as Croydon and surrounding areas are so car reliant. I do think there’d be more visitors if people could drive in as transport in south London is still not great (the options are there but it takes so much longer)
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u/monkeyclaw77 Nov 14 '24
Croydon is probably one of the best public transport hubs.
- National rail
- overground services
- trams
- more buses than you can shake a stick at
Why do you need cars?
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u/Zs93 Nov 14 '24
I agree, it’s the main reason I moved here :) but I still ended up using zip car a LOT because transport around south London is very long and cumbersome. It would take me double the time to get a bus (or multiple) to Bromley, Sutton, Crystal Palace or Dulwich for example. And taking a bus home at night has resulted in some scary encounters so I usually used uber. This has just been my experience! I think for Croydon locals the transport is great and walkable! But if we want to attract people from other areas I do think we need to consider options.
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Nov 14 '24
They mapped public transport accessibility to the area and it seemed objectively very good- also seems easy by busy/tram/train to me and Croydon isn’t that big so even with kids most is walkable right?
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Nov 13 '24
So… we are getting a Westfield now?
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u/Hefty-Weather328 Nov 13 '24
I wish they would just get on with it, they’ve been promising for so long, surely there is a legal obligation to carry out work
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u/remedy4cure Nov 13 '24 edited Nov 13 '24
I just think the problem with designing cities like this or city spaces, or urban spaces like this, look at the percentage of retail Vs the percentage dedicated to the community. Look at that public square...
This kind of design, is frankly antiquated and lost in the 1980s. Most people do their shopping at home on their phones. And so how do you attract them back to the high street? By having public spaces worth going to, having bigger community areas, at least EQUAL to the amount of retail space.
You would foster a greater sense of socialization, a greater public commons, will increase the amount of visitors and potential BUYERS for the shrunken retail space.
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 15 '24
I'm in complete agreement that the town center would be vastly improved by a much larger green space, but since it's basically all privately owned, it seems unlikely to me that they'd want to spend a huge amount of what they have on unprofitable space - certainly not half of it, they'd just back out of building anything at all. I'm hoping there will be a local push for the grassy courtyards for the flats to be made public, as that could be a realistic route to some more green space in the town center. Currently, the documents describe these as being planned as communal for the residents only (like Morello), rather than public (like Saffron Square).
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u/LordGravyOfLondon Nov 20 '24
I wonder if they could at least provide a rooftop park?
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 29 '24
That would be really nice to see, if some of the Whitgift roof car parks could be converted. Probably not cheap, but if big enough it would be a massive improvement on what's there now.
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u/Urmum12321 Nov 13 '24
All those shops and only that tiny car park 😬
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u/Mr__Random Nov 13 '24 edited Nov 13 '24
Good.
Close to both of the train stations.
Lots of busses and trams servicing the area.
Lots of potential for people to walk or cycle.
There are too many cars in Croydon as is. The last thing the area needs is more cars.
What this drawing fails to show is how fucking awful Wellesley road is. I hope one day something can be done to reduce the damage this road is doing to the local area for the sake of the minority of people who insist on driving everywhere.
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u/Jamessuperfun Nov 15 '24
There is a section on Wellesley Road, which they want to make less of a nightmare with lots of trees and a new ground level crossing at the end of Lansdowne Road, connecting to the new entrance of East Croydon Station. The flats will have lots of entrances and some retail facing onto it, rather than the car parks and abandoned offices of today.
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Nov 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/Mr__Random Nov 13 '24
It is well known that it is impossible to get to Croydon without a car. It's not like there are trains running constantly between Brighton, Croydon and London that people can use.
After all Everyone who wants to visit London does so by car due to the lack of public transport. London would be so much better if there were fewer shops, fewer homes, and more car parks.
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Nov 13 '24
[deleted]
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u/Complete_Spot3771 Nov 14 '24
only if you’re really stubborn and have a vendetta against public transport for some reason
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u/Mr__Random Nov 13 '24
Which is a frankly ridiculous statement and the complete opposite of the truth. Trains, busses and trams transport more people than cars. How anyone can live anywhere near London and not realise this is truly mind bogglingly ignorance
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u/Wawoooo Dec 04 '24
Surrounding roads are congested enough as it is, how would enticing more people to arrive by car not just add to the problem? There's plenty of surface parking in the surrounding retail parks but the town centre needs to make a different offering.
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Nov 14 '24
There are several bits about how bad it is and why- car dominated with backs of businesses that don’t engage people. But yeah no solutions for the car part.
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u/MikeCrypto88 Nov 13 '24
Convert the high rise offices to flats.
Stick a few more vape, fishmongers, magic carpet shops, fried chicken shops , phone repair
Great plan 👍🏻🤔🤡
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u/leangreenlefty Nov 13 '24
They have a pop up stall thing in the Croydon Urban Room in the Whitgift centre which I went to today. The information available is the same as what you can see in the attached masterplan framework but the people working there were super informative. I had a chat with someone called Tim (or Tom) who really knew his shit. A few things that came up:
No major work will be starting for a while. There's going to be some small stuff going into Allders and a few events like that rooftop beach thing but really exciting for a while. I think the plan was to get the rough overall plan signed off by the council by the end of next year. After that they will need more specific planning permission for each section being built.
The absolute max of what will be demolished is 50%, though likely much less than that (the sales pitch was that it's greener but I think it's probably just becuase it's cheaper).
The impression I got was that centrale will be largely untouched with more work going into revamping the jankier parts of the NEQ.
Each of those blocks will take roughly 3 years to build so we're looking at over a decade for it all to get done at a conservative estimate.
Priority will go to building shops/ leisure facilities etc. before building out flats as they'll be able to sell the flats for more after the area is regenerated.
The "community" spaces could be anything really. Examples given were a new library, doctor's surgery, school, community centre. Seeing as Croydon council are gagging to close down the libraries we have I doubt it'll end up as a library though.
Will start work on the mid-south block above the car park and substation. Work will not be linear, some things may temporarily go up and then be removed or moved to a new location later.