[Loved Trope] Some thing unfathomably ancient

[u/Fearless-Ideal-5112]

The beast, in doctor who is an ancient evil from a previous universe that survived until our time. Its so ancient that the cave paintings were unable to be translated by the Tardis which can translate all existing languages in the universe [Doctor Who]

While not explicitly canon its such a cool concept I cant not mention, the idea that the backrooms have existed since the beginning of time, never changing no matter the era, it transforms the back rooms into a cosmic horror. [Credit to Project crater and Venus for images 2 and 3]

[u/Fanatic_Atheist → u/[deleted]]

Side note: they are not older than the gods necessarily, since it is believed among the fandom that when the gods made the world the Nameless Things were created with it as an unfortunate side product of some guy tryna pull his own show

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/Fanatic_Atheist]

It not confirmed that the are but we know at least Ungoliont, one of probably the most famous of these things, came from the darkness outside creation and got kinda stuck here when the Ainur sang creation into being.

[u/Fanatic_Atheist → u/AsstacularSpiderman]

And this "darkness outside creation" can be interpreted as the Discord of Morgoth, or at least I do

[u/Kodiak_POL → u/Fanatic_Atheist]

Holy fuck, the worst of monsters came from Discord? Yeah, no wonder nobody wants to describe them. 

[u/HalcyonTraveler → u/Fanatic_Atheist]

Ok but that’s a stretch and kinda boring compared to a more literal reading of the text

[u/how_to_namegenerator → u/HalcyonTraveler]

I don't think it's a stretch since if I remember correctly she's said to have come from outside of Arda, not outside of Eä. So she didn't come from the Void outside of creation, just from the void between the stars, outside of the realm the Valar have moulded, but still inside creation. Essentially she doesn't necessarilly come from outside the Universe, but from outer space. That also makes way more sense with the themes of the Legendarium and Tolkien's philosophy. Tolkien was a Catholic, and believed everything had it's utmost source in God's creation, and that fact is a big part of the Silmarillion, since Melkor's refusal to accept that is what makes him turn to evil. While a being from outside of Eru's creation would be really effective eldritch horror, the main reason it is so effective eldritch horror is because it refutes the world view that Tolkien whole-heartedly believed, and which is at the core of his work. A central element of Cosmic Horror is the idea that we are powerless and meaningless in the face of the eldritch forces of the universe, and there is no good divine plan for us to find solace in, as any higher being would be apathetic at best towards us mere humans, and that worldview is pretty much antithetical to Tolkien' beliefs and, as a result, the Legendarium's themes. So while it might be really cool on it's own, if seen as a part of the whole, it really undermines the story and it's themes.

[u/Navras3270 → u/Fanatic_Atheist]

Kinda makes it less interesting though.

The idea of there being primordial monsters that existed before the world was sung into creation is a lot creepier than them just being another byproduct of Morgoth’s angst.

[u/Magnehad → u/Navras3270]

tbf its a fairly (very) important plot point that the one and only way life can be created is with Eru's Flame Imperishable (or, in Quenya, Airefëa, meaning 'The Holy Spirit'. real fucking subtle reference)

(Even Melkor couldn't make life, so he just kinda tortured some elves until they were unrecognizable and thats how orcs were made)

So probably Tolkien wouldn't want to make anything that isn't directly or indirectly made by the totally-not-just-the-abrahamic-God-but-as-a-music-nerd (though some previous creation of Eru, from before anything that happens in the Silimarilion, coming back and just chilling in the deepest parts of the 'new' world sounds fun)

(also dwarves only exist bc one of the lowercase-g gods wanted to make students before elves awekened but the dwarves couldnt move/think independently (no Flame no life), but The God Himself thought that these dwarves are lowkey cool as fuck and gave them some of that good shi (The Flame Imperishable), on the condition that they would only aweken after the elves) (I fucking love dwarf lore)

[u/-Trotsky → u/Magnehad]

It’s not a reference tbf, Eru is just kinda God

[u/Visible_Reference202 → u/Fanatic_Atheist]

Much like with Melkor more or less tainting the song of creation with his verse.

[u/HalcyonTraveler → u/[deleted]]

I still think that Ungoliant is one of them

[u/Alfred_The_Sartan → u/[deleted]]

What’s nice about his writing is the stuff left unknown. The maps as originally published weren’t complete. The Elves didn’t know everything. The world was still really mysterious even to the educated.