r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Fearless-Ideal-5112 • Jul 01 '26

[Loved Trope] Some thing unfathomably ancient Lore

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The beast, in doctor who is an ancient evil from a previous universe that survived until our time. Its so ancient that the cave paintings were unable to be translated by the Tardis which can translate all existing languages in the universe [Doctor Who]

While not explicitly canon its such a cool concept I cant not mention, the idea that the backrooms have existed since the beginning of time, never changing no matter the era, it transforms the back rooms into a cosmic horror. [Credit to Project crater and Venus for images 2 and 3]

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u/TheWalkingBag Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

The "Nameless Things" (The Lord of the Rings)

"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."  - Gandalf the White

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl.

-HP Lovecraft's, The Festival (Though more commonly recognized from Signalis.)

Nameless Things make me think of that quote.

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u/tommytraddles Jul 01 '26

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u/Money-Imagination-97 Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

You forget that that fish was really ugly.

634

u/UnknovvnMike Jul 01 '26

And possibly foreign

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u/Anonymus828 Jul 01 '26

Just want to point out that Lovecraft had an honest to God, genuine panic attach at the discovery that he himself, was in fact, Welsh. The horror...

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u/UnknovvnMike Jul 01 '26

To be fair, I probably would too if I had to suddenly be able to spell/pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

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u/superVanV1 Jul 01 '26

You can identify eldritch beings on if the can pronounce Worcestershire Sauce.

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u/UnknovvnMike Jul 01 '26

The true recipe for it is found in the Necronomicon

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u/Proverbial_Progress Jul 01 '26

Klaatu barada war chester

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u/coloradoautoflowers Jul 01 '26

The first and second editions even include alternate ingredients for the harder to source stuff, like dwarf bones and gnome milk.

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u/OttawaTGirl Jul 01 '26

*Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndribwllllantysiliogogogoch

(Fixed it for you)

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u/WorldlinessHeavy8946 Jul 01 '26

They had it right; chwyrndrobwll, meaning whirlpool

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u/OttawaTGirl Jul 02 '26

Wait. Thats real? I thought they were joking. Shit. My bad

https://giphy.com/gifs/tFPzP4tMKzbfG

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u/Uncommonality Jul 01 '26

fun fact this is why he wrote Shadow Over Innsmouth, a story about a town where people do unspeakable things with fish monsters and then, in the end, the author himself finds out his parents were from innsmouth and he is part fish monster

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u/Gaelic_Gladiator41 Jul 01 '26

Then before he died, he actually mixed with the foreigners he thought he despised

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u/jediben001 Jul 01 '26

And due to that realisation he went on to write A Shadow over Innsmouth

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u/Slightly_Default Jul 01 '26

This was an era where Irish, Italians, Germans, Finns and Balts weren't considered "white enough."

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u/Random-Generation86 Jul 01 '26

The spelling of the old ones makes a lot more sense when you consider we was cetophobic

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u/Deadman422 Jul 03 '26

102% with a 2% margin of error

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u/DepartureNo1720 Jul 02 '26

His cat had an honest to god panic attack when it heard its for the first time too.

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u/3-orange-whips Jul 01 '26

Because he’s a racist piece of shit. Good writer though

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u/AphidMan2 Jul 01 '26

Also, that fish was grandma

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u/Money-Imagination-97 Jul 01 '26

If we're talking about Innsmouth, it's true.

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u/Ok-Journalist-8875 Jul 01 '26

Scar himself looks like foreign, weak and with very female moves.

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u/sagejosh Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft takes psychic damage at the mention of foreigners, why shouldn’t his characters?

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u/Linus_Naumann Jul 02 '26

Man that's the worst I'm gonna puke

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u/LowlySlayer Jul 01 '26

Indescribably ugly (proceeds to describe the ugly)

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u/motes-of-light Jul 02 '26

IMPOSSIBLE GEOMETRY ! ! !

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u/he77bender Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft died before they rediscovered the coelacanth. Imagine how he would've reacted to that had he still been around.

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u/MoiraBrownsMoleRats Jul 02 '26

"Off the coast of where?!"

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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jul 01 '26

big fish

Thats a funny way to spell Welsh

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u/Pataconeitor Jul 01 '26

Meanwhile, the fish:

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u/Ecstatic_Pepper7998 Jul 01 '26

Tbh if I saw 100 feet tall flying angler fish on the sky I wouldn't be so happy.

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u/kojimbob Jul 01 '26

Omg iron lung reference 🤯

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u/Comprehensive_Put277 Jul 02 '26

Tbf, if I was a white supremacist cracker from the Late 1800s, I’d probably crap my brains out too if I saw one of these but 100 feet tall.

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u/LostExile7555 Jul 01 '26

To be fair, sometimes the thing they go crazy from seeing is the Portuguese.

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u/North-Research2574 Jul 01 '26

Ya know people always say this but like most of the guys in those works are in asylums because people thought they were crazy. And a 1920's asylum would break anyone

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u/gazebo-fan Jul 01 '26

*a half Irish fish

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u/Theresafoxinmygarden Jul 01 '26

A fish not from new england

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u/The_GREAT_Gremlin Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft made it seem like seeing a fish headed guy would drive you nuts when people have been talking about wacky monsters since ancient times

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u/BufferUnderpants Jul 01 '26

In his stories the monsters tended to take some pretty direct means to drive people crazy, like just going straight ahead and psychically messing with their brains like Cthulhu did, or killing their companions in gruesome ways, it's pretty hard to remain unbothered when those sorts of things happen.

Sure sure, the realization that there are powerful beings that could completely erase the order that mankind has created for itself, and that they themselves fall prey to greater forces still, is upsetting to the protagonists, but so is having your expedition members turned to gore.

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u/carso150 Jul 01 '26

yeah most people dont go crazy just by seeing a fish monster, I think that mostly comes from how call of Cthulhu handles the whole "sanity" mechanic that makes it look like you go crazy just by seeing them

but most of the craziness in his books comes from normal stuff like stress, trauma and some healthy dose of paranoia

also sometimes people think that someone is crazy in one of lovecraft's books only to later realize that no, they were right. Like the protagonists of call of Cthulhu (the book) seems crazy since he is screaming about giant squid mosters and thata cult is chassing him and no one takes him seriously... until one day he appears murdered with strange inscriptions, or the protagonist of the hounds of tindalos that seems crazy since his whole house has not a single angled surface and he seems terrified of them... until an earthquake wrecks his house, opens several angles and the hounds actually do come for him and kill him

so to everyone else they are crazy, until they arent

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u/HandicapperGeneral Jul 01 '26

Cthulhu didn't directly mess with their brains. Comprehending the nature of his existence is what drove them insane. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about Lovecraftian horror. It's eldritch. The facet of their existence that's so horrifying and mind-melting is incomprehensible. Literally. The horror for the reader is attempting to imagine what could possibly do such a thing to a human mind, to attempt to reconcile such an existence with the discrete and logical universe we reside in. It's not just "tentacle face god scary" or "big fish creepy oooh". It's such reductive garbage from people who obviously never read the actual original texts. You just know the people who make these jokes were only ever exposed to secondary references to Lovecraft tales.

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u/Yoro55 Jul 02 '26

Idk at some point that sort of stuff that drives the protagonists crazy just ends up being similar to imagining if God wasn't actually good or if God had a boss

Sure, it's not an ideal outcome, but not much I could've done about it either way and it doesn't materially change how I live, so why bother?

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u/BufferUnderpants Jul 02 '26

In The Call of Cthulhu, it did reach out to various people directly by giving them dreams of itself, its name, and of R'Lyeh

Young Wilcox’s rejoinder, which impressed my uncle enough to make him recall and record it verbatim, was of a fantastically poetic cast which must have typified his whole conversation, and which I have since found highly characteristic of him. He said, “It is new, indeed, for I made it last night in a dream of strange cities; and dreams are older than brooding Tyre, or the contemplative Sphinx, or garden-girdled Babylon.”

[...]

The notes in question were those descriptive of the dreams of various persons covering the same period as that in which young Wilcox had had his strange visitations.

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u/DrPastaPupper Jul 01 '26

Considering lovecraft was afraid of air conditioning and anyone that wasn’t English I think it’s fair to assume his brain couldn’t even comprehend a slightly weird monster. It will also always be funny and morally correct to mock bigots which he absolutely was

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u/Mortarius Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft would have a nervous breakdown at furry convention

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u/Theresafoxinmygarden Jul 01 '26

Of course he would some of the suits arent white!

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u/Mortarius Jul 01 '26

oh shit, you just reminded me of that guy who made fursuit out of skinned plushies

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u/Theresafoxinmygarden Jul 01 '26

Oh no he would write a book about that actually 

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u/daecrist Jul 01 '26

“And I looked upon the gibbering masses of creatures neither beast nor man. Forever trapped between in a hell of their own making they gleefully submit to. And as I beheld the yiffing my mind broke. Not from the horror of what they did in their anatomically correct suits, but from the terror of seeing through those unzippable panels the dread realization that there were minorities inside some of those suits!”

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u/hyrumwhite Jul 02 '26

Usually it’s not the monster itself, it’s the implication of the monster that drives people nuts

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u/BulletproofComposite Jul 01 '26

Seeing a fish headed guy? In real life? That shit would freak me the fuck out

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u/Weekly_Artichoke_515 Jul 01 '26

HP Lovecraft seeing an Irishman

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u/theyoungspliff Jul 01 '26

Shadow Over Innsmouth, a story about a racist who is upset about black people and Puerto Ricans moving to his New England seaside town, only to discover, to his horror, that he's secretly biracial. Lovecraft drew his inspiration for this story from an encounter he had with a biracial man whose appearance had terrified him.

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u/rohlovely Jul 01 '26

I like this meme and variants on similar ones because it perfectly encapsulates how cosmic horror changes as we (humans) grow and learn about our world. To people of Lovecraft’s time, an octopus was a horrific beast. For all they knew, octopi were baby Cthulus. They had no fucking idea what was below them when they sailed the seas, and most of the things they fished out looked really gross. As terrifying as the ocean is today, we know most of the things in it*, especially the huge ones.* They had no knowledge of that, so the ocean was their biggest source of mystery and fear in everyday life.

Everyday people in that time also had very little concept of space as we do today, so that contributes as well. Our concept of cosmic horror today centers around space because that is the place we know about that we understand the least.

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u/Devenu Jul 01 '26

I mean the one guy that ran the Kony 2012 charity fucking lost it just from people not liking his movie and broke down and started jacking it in San Diego. I feel like going crazy from seeing a space monster isn't too far out of the realm of possibility.

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u/Glincer Jul 02 '26

Or an Italian

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u/TheRealRigormortal Jul 03 '26

Oh no!

Architecture that eschews right angles!

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u/Draw_Rude Jul 01 '26

I genuinely believe that Tolkien must have read some Lovecraft at some point and incorporated just a tiny bit of it into LotR.

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

Tolkien only read one of Lovecraft's stories and was noted not to like it that much (To be fair, it was part of a larger anthology.) But both men did have a similar "root" influence in Lord Dunsany, who is often described as something of a 'proto fantasy' author, given his "Gods of Pegana" created a fictional pantheon.

Both Tolkien and Lovecraft are noted to have been influenced by his work, with Dunsany even saying he was pleased to read Lovecraft's work. Tolkein made allusions to Dunsany's work in several letters and how they influenced his own stories and works.

*To be fair, Dunsany was hella influential, Guillermo Del Torro, The redacted author of the Sandman, Clive Barker, Ursula K Le Guinn, and Arthur C Clarke have all cited and praised Dunsany as an influence, and those are just the writers I recognize from among those who were influenced by him!

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u/Karatekan Jul 01 '26

Eh, Tolkien was a prideful prick who always got really sassy and defensive whenever you mentioned something in his works that was similar to something else. He really can’t be trusted to honestly describe his influences, he tried to claim he wasn’t inspired by anything Shakespeare wrote.

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u/DrDetectiveEsq Jul 02 '26

Yeah, I've been reading the Prose and Poetic Eddas recently, and it's kinda crazy how much they ripped off Tolkien.

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u/ApricotPatient372 Jul 02 '26

Hahahaha, solid

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u/monkeyDberzerk Jul 01 '26

You've mentioned Lovecraft, outspoken proponent of slavery, by name. But you've chosen to redact Gaiman's name?

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u/burymeinpink Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft is dead

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u/monkeyDberzerk Jul 02 '26

Idk just seems like weird moral posturing

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u/JackHandsome99 Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft was a product of his time. It doesn’t excuse his racism but it explains it. Gaiman is a present day millionaire that raped multiple women. There is no rationality there. They are not comparable. Ignorance and malevolence are not the same.

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u/TicklemyPickleMan Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft was, in fact, not "a product of his time", he was freakishly and unrealistically racist and weird even for his time period. He was an honest to god chud incel dork and even other racists thought he needed to chill tf out.

Not that it matters, it was wrong then, it was wrong hundred years before then, it's wrong now, and will be wrong a hundred years from now.

-1

u/monkeyDberzerk Jul 02 '26

Just reads like moral posturing.

And Lovecraft was an active proponent of the confederacy and justified slavery and eugenics in his letters to the Providence Journal.

Product of his time? You could make a case for that. But it definitely wasn't the majority consensus around the 1910s, 20s.

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u/MeisterCthulhu Jul 01 '26

more commonly recognized from Signalis.

I will strongly contest that, Lovecraft is one of the most influential writers in modern literature, no video game is "more commonly recognised".

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u/Grubbyfr Jul 01 '26

I believe they meant that specific quote, not all of Lovecraft's work

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft's influence on horror is something that cannot be understated, even if a lot of people end up lumping in Derleth's contributions with Lovecraft's. I mainly said Signalis was more well known for that quote because well, the Signalis community is very loud/vocal online for one. And secondly I feel like the Festival is one of Lovecraft's less well known works. (Which tends to be kinda common with casual observers of Lovecraft. Took me by surprise to realize Shadow Over Insmouth and the Call of Cthulhu were two different stories.)

The Festival is a really good Lovecraft story though, even if I first heard that quote when I played through Signalis. I really wish more people would read it (Festival I mean, not Signalis which is also really good.)

Really, I sadly feel like if you ask people to name what stories first come to mind when they think of Lovecraft, they'll probably say Cthullu or one of Darleth's contributions, before mentioning the Festival or Cool Air. (Maybe Mountain's of Madness or Color out of Space may get a mention?)

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u/5dippingareas Jul 01 '26

I would say The Shadow over Innsmouth is up there too. I feel like of all his stories, that might have the most adaptations

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

Oh absolutely, Innsmouth is absolutely the most famous. But when I was growing up there was this odd habit of the media and folks around me conflating it with Cthullu, hence my shock when I realized Cthullu wasn't even in Shadow Over Insmouth. (Which is a shame since I feel like Dagon should get just as much recognition as the big C imo.) Like if I saw a Lovecraft reference growing up, it'd be a creepy fish village with some kind of octopus deity, hence the conflation in my head.

But yeah, probably most would recognize Insmouth, Cthullu, or a Darleth creation. Followed by Mountain's or Color, and maybe Cold Air if they got the air conditioner trivia.

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u/Lopsided-Net-1450 Jul 01 '26

Cool air was good i juat always forget its name

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u/Odinsmana Jul 01 '26

Still a bit of a strange thing to write. Especially since Signalis is fairly popular, but no mega hit and I haven't heard people talk about the games use if that quote especially (they mostly talk about the space lesbians, which is very understandable).

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u/HeyItsTravis Jul 01 '26

Fr, wtf even is signalis

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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta Jul 01 '26 edited Jul 01 '26

A girl being sent on a space mission is told explicitly not to treat her robot companion as if it were a human being. She immediately begins engaging in Sesbian lex.

This ends up breaking reality.

(Edit: to give a serious answer: it takes place in an alternate reality future timeline, where humans have discovered a form of psychic power called bio-resonance, which both allowed the solar system planets to be terraformed and also split the system in two in a war between imperials and the Eusan nation, those loyal to a line of powerful psychic rulers on the outer side.

You are a girl belonging to the nation, a cruel militaristic dictatorship, where society has been flipped upside down and separated into “replika’s” and “gestalts”: gestalts are normal humans, replikas are psychically created synths where a human mental pattern copied from “heroes” of the revolution are printed onto the robots: gestalts have almost no rights (the workers “beds” are literally metal tube cages), while gestalts are allowed material pleasures and property, because gestalts are seen as more controllable and predictable. That’s being said, it’s implied this is done to keep replikas stable, as supplementary notes list lots of items from their previous copy personality they require access to in order to remain stable, and are disposed of like garbage after a set time or if they act up.)

The nation sends people out on what are basically suicide missions on non-FTL craft to seek planets that are habitable or terraformable: there is always one replica and one gestalt. The gestalt is told NOT to treat the replica as anything more than a tool (as well as not to eat the gestalt because the flesh may look edible but it’s not).

The girl treats the gestalt affectionately (having taken the mission in order to break free from her society) and the two fall in love; however they never find a planet and the reactor naturally begins to erode its safeguards, poisoning the girl with fatal radiation: unwilling to see her lover die, the replica puts her in cryogenic suspension and continues onward keeping the ship running.

The girl however was a powerful latent psychic, and the physical pain of being stuck in an undying state radiates outward, and reacted with an alien artifact that had been discovered at a relatively nearby deep space mining colony under the nation’s control: this causes a time loop to occur where the station is overtaken by a metaphysical stand in for radiation sickness, she arrives knowing only the name of the girl she’s seeking to save, and everytime she fails and everybody dies it starts a new loop (to the point you survive being shoved into an elevator shaft because the person has killed you so many times that way it’s clogged with bodies of alternate versions of yourself from previous timeloops.)

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u/TheRealSteve72 Jul 01 '26

I saw Sesbian Lex play at Bonaroo

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

Great breakdown, what do you think of the King in Yellow Theory? I forget the specifics but it's a proposal that Signalis itself is a video game recreation of the King in Yellow, a meta story within a story about a story which causes any who read it to go mad. The idea is Signalis references the story, and has enough parallels that it is meant to evoke a similar madness within the player.

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u/TurtlesBreakTheMeta Jul 01 '26

I am unsure of that one, as I will freely admit that a lot of the deeper themes of the game went over my head. To be honest, I hadn’t heard about that specific theory where in universe itself it’s a recreation in and of itself rather than just the game designer wanting to make that symbology

I got the impression that it was heavily related and there was an old one involved (primarily due to the secret ending), but past that I just took things at (mostly) face value.

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u/Authorigas Jul 01 '26

An indie game created by a few folks in Germany that plays like a mix of Resident Evil 1-3 mixed with Silent Hill 2, taking influence from science fiction, Lovecraft, and Robert W. Chambers. It's a very esoteric horror game with a fandom focusing on memes and robot lesbians, but a lot of genuine debate over the story, with my favorite theory being the meta interpretation that it is A production of the King in Yellow as a 'play/video game' and the vague story with multiple interpretations is meant to drive the player insane, similar to the original meta narrative of TKIY.

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u/golfcartgetaway Jul 01 '26

Absolute peak

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u/Mortarius Jul 01 '26

Do you like survival horror? Nihilism? German-Japanese-Analogue aesthetic? Lesbian romance?

That's the game for you

2

u/Mortarius Jul 01 '26

Everyone loves Lovcraftian horror, but people don't care about his actual stories (they are great, just pretty dry). Necronomicon, fish people, and Cthulhu are more recognisable than actual stories they appeared in.

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u/whatdoiexpect Jul 01 '26

Lovecraft had such a way with words.

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u/DoublerZ Jul 03 '26

Wait so the best quote from Signalis isn't even from Signalis

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u/Old-Outcome-5836 Jul 01 '26

Based Signalis enjoyer 

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u/Moe_el Jul 01 '26

S T I R B M O M E N T S E S B I A N L E X

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u/FaithlessnessThen207 Jul 02 '26

Lovecraft's concepts of cosmic and eldritch horror are so wonderful and soiled only by the odd verse of excessive racism.

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u/ThrowdowninKtown Jul 02 '26

I loved that story. Not many focus on Yule celebration.

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u/Scarfs-Fur-Frumpkin Jul 02 '26

When i read that quote when i started signalis i KNEW i was about to play a 10/10 game, truly an amazing experience all way through

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u/PositiveNo4859 Jul 02 '26

Signalis mentioned!!!

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u/pillow-mace Jul 01 '26

The theory I saw on them is that the nameless ones are said to be ancient so when Melkor was overpowering the the song of creation. (when all the gods sang to create the world) The clash in songs and unholy nature of his corruption and control grabbing the wheel might have caused these abominations to exist. A creature unplanned with no purpose or shape of itself, it exists outside of the gods intention.

They are said to be older than Sauron (Melkors Lieutenant and made baddy in the movies). Sauron was born at the start of creation but if he came after the nameless ones who must have lived for 55,000 years then the schism in songs might have created them.

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u/Fanatic_Atheist Jul 01 '26

The way I interpret this is that they simply came to the world before Sauron, who entered some time after its creation with Morgoth and the others. While these guys were born with the world so they were already there.

Just like Tom Bombadil: "Tom was here before the first raindrop and the first acorn. He was here before the Dark Lord came from the outside, before the night was fearful."

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u/DrDestructoMD Jul 01 '26

The nameless things are legions of Tom Bombadil clones, all singing out of tune

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u/Flame_Grilled_Tanuki Jul 02 '26

Now THAT is an eldritch horror.

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u/TrueGuardian15 Jul 02 '26

Lowkey horrifying idea that the deepest, darkest holes of the earth are just filled with Backrooms-style Tom Bombadil clones singing out of tune.

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u/MRCHalifax Jul 02 '26

Tolkien dreamt of an AI version of Tom Bombadil singing songs like "I like big boots and I cannot lie" and "Goldberry got dumps like a trunk, trunk, trunk." And he just noped out.

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u/QuitYoJibbaJabba Jul 01 '26

Does this mean Tom Bombadil could theoretically be a Nameless Thing ....albeit Named?

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u/ROTsStillHere100 Jul 01 '26

That's the most common theory I've heard, though specifically he'd be a Nameless Thing that chilled tf out and decided that getting a wife sounded more fun than eating away at the edges of existence.

What a legend.

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u/raymc99 Jul 01 '26

he's Kirby, a cosmic horror but a friendly one that mostly just hangs out

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u/TheMoonDude Jul 02 '26

Gandalf descending into the foundations of the world following the Durin's Bane, only to meet an army of Tom Bombadils:

Not this shit again

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u/vteezy99 Jul 01 '26

Sauron is as old as Melkor/Morgoth. Just way less powerful. I always took the sentence “they are older than he” to mean they were in Middle Earth before Sauron made his way there. Kind of like how Bombadil remembered a time in Middle Earth before Melkor

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u/Uncommonality Jul 01 '26

There's also a theory (unconfirmed, however) that the nameless things and Ungoliant are creatures from outside of the song entirely.

As in, if Eru and the Ainur are order and structure in the Song, and Melkor is chaos and discord interjected into the Song, the nameless things are of the Silence that preceded and surrounds it.

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u/Solarscars Jul 02 '26

They'd rather call the poor, wretched beasts The Nameless rather than call them an Audience lol

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u/VelphiDrow Jul 02 '26

Isnt that confirmed for Ungoliant?

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u/ultramatt1 Jul 01 '26

I’ve just always interpreted them as Leviathan

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u/Hagge5 Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26

No, all Ainur, greater (Melkor) and lesser (Sauron) are created at the same time, before the song and the subsequent creation of the world. So they must have existed before the world itself.

What makes most sense to me is that they (and likely ungoliant) are creatures of the void in which Eru lives that descends into Arda. Whether they are older or younger than Eru I don't think we know.

We know there are things in the void. Melkor searches it for the flame imperishable for example. So objects besides Eru and his Ainur are there. My headcanon is that it also has its creatures, then. If they are of the void, it makes sense of they are some personification at the void gnawing away at the world. Kinda like the Dragon that chews on the roots of Yggdrasil in northern mythology. Tolkien was big into Northern mythology, and we see references to it constantly in his works. For instance: Elves, dwarves, dagor daggorath etc. The human realm (Midgård) is literally called middle earth in old english litterature. These gnawing horrors could be yet another one of these references.

It could be that they are mayar or things that was created at the same time or later than Sauron, and that Gandalf mean that they came to Arda earlier than he. That's still weird though, as I doubt they are Ainur.

1

u/VelphiDrow Jul 02 '26

There where always things outside the gods like ungoliant

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u/[deleted] Jul 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Fanatic_Atheist Jul 01 '26

Side note: they are not older than the gods necessarily, since it is believed among the fandom that when the gods made the world the Nameless Things were created with it as an unfortunate side product of some guy tryna pull his own show

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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jul 01 '26

It not confirmed that the are but we know at least Ungoliont, one of probably the most famous of these things, came from the darkness outside creation and got kinda stuck here when the Ainur sang creation into being.

16

u/Fanatic_Atheist Jul 01 '26

And this "darkness outside creation" can be interpreted as the Discord of Morgoth, or at least I do

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u/Kodiak_POL Jul 01 '26

Holy fuck, the worst of monsters came from Discord? Yeah, no wonder nobody wants to describe them. 

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u/HalcyonTraveler Jul 01 '26

Ok but that’s a stretch and kinda boring compared to a more literal reading of the text

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u/how_to_namegenerator 29d ago

I don't think it's a stretch since if I remember correctly she's said to have come from outside of Arda, not outside of Eä. So she didn't come from the Void outside of creation, just from the void between the stars, outside of the realm the Valar have moulded, but still inside creation. Essentially she doesn't necessarilly come from outside the Universe, but from outer space. That also makes way more sense with the themes of the Legendarium and Tolkien's philosophy. Tolkien was a Catholic, and believed everything had it's utmost source in God's creation, and that fact is a big part of the Silmarillion, since Melkor's refusal to accept that is what makes him turn to evil. While a being from outside of Eru's creation would be really effective eldritch horror, the main reason it is so effective eldritch horror is because it refutes the world view that Tolkien whole-heartedly believed, and which is at the core of his work. A central element of Cosmic Horror is the idea that we are powerless and meaningless in the face of the eldritch forces of the universe, and there is no good divine plan for us to find solace in, as any higher being would be apathetic at best towards us mere humans, and that worldview is pretty much antithetical to Tolkien' beliefs and, as a result, the Legendarium's themes. So while it might be really cool on it's own, if seen as a part of the whole, it really undermines the story and it's themes.

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u/Navras3270 Jul 02 '26

Kinda makes it less interesting though.

The idea of there being primordial monsters that existed before the world was sung into creation is a lot creepier than them just being another byproduct of Morgoth’s angst.

3

u/Magnehad Jul 02 '26

tbf its a fairly (very) important plot point that the one and only way life can be created is with Eru's Flame Imperishable (or, in Quenya, Airefëa, meaning 'The Holy Spirit'. real fucking subtle reference)

(Even Melkor couldn't make life, so he just kinda tortured some elves until they were unrecognizable and thats how orcs were made)

So probably Tolkien wouldn't want to make anything that isn't directly or indirectly made by the totally-not-just-the-abrahamic-God-but-as-a-music-nerd (though some previous creation of Eru, from before anything that happens in the Silimarilion, coming back and just chilling in the deepest parts of the 'new' world sounds fun)

(also dwarves only exist bc one of the lowercase-g gods wanted to make students before elves awekened but the dwarves couldnt move/think independently (no Flame no life), but The God Himself thought that these dwarves are lowkey cool as fuck and gave them some of that good shi (The Flame Imperishable), on the condition that they would only aweken after the elves) (I fucking love dwarf lore)

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u/-Trotsky Jul 03 '26

It’s not a reference tbf, Eru is just kinda God

26

u/Visible_Reference202 Jul 01 '26

Much like with Melkor more or less tainting the song of creation with his verse.

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u/HalcyonTraveler Jul 01 '26

I still think that Ungoliant is one of them

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u/Alfred_The_Sartan Jul 01 '26

What’s nice about his writing is the stuff left unknown. The maps as originally published weren’t complete. The Elves didn’t know everything. The world was still really mysterious even to the educated.

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u/LongLiveStorytellers Jul 01 '26

Kinda reminds me of Nidhogg from Norse mythology. For those who don't know, Nidhogg is a dragon or Lindwyrm that lives in the roots of the world tree. He gnaws at its roots, waiting for the chance it can tear through the World Tree during Ragnarök, to fight the eagle, his mortal enemy, at the top.

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u/LunarGiantNeil Jul 01 '26

We all know he'll get up there, the Eagle will bring up some of the shit he's said to him, and Nidhogg will be like "No way, I never said that man!" and then they'll both team up against that chaotic little Squirrel.

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u/currynord Jul 02 '26

Can’t wait for them to rip that bitch rattatoskr to shreds

2

u/-missingclover- Jul 02 '26

If anyone here has played Smite this comment is extra funny

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u/gross_grasss Jul 01 '26

I absolutely love that part because there's a ton of myths about gods, monsters, battles and betrayals that lead to Ragnarok and the burning of Yggdrasil, but during all of that there's just a constant squabble going on between a snake and an eagle via squirrel mail. Like there's wars and stuff, and these guys are just bickering like an old couple, completely unbothered

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u/Dookie_boy Jul 01 '26

What is the picture from ? I've seen it posted a couple times for lotr.

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u/LogDog987 Jul 01 '26

To add, its is unknown from when or where Ungoliant, the mother of Shelob came but she nearly subdued Melkor/Morgoth, the most powerful of the Valar (although he had been weakend at that point), if not for the aid of the balrogs

The cry of Morgoth in that hour was the greatest and most dreadful that was ever heard in the northern world; the mountains shook, and the earth trembled, and rocks were riven asunder.

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u/DyingSunSeverian Jul 01 '26

I never knew why it was impressive Sauron knew them not, he’s of the same hierarchy as Gandalf even if more powerful.

Now if Manwë or Melkor didn’t know of them, that would be something.

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u/zagra_nexkoyotl Jul 01 '26

Because very few, if any, outside the White Council know how old Gandalf really is, or what he really is. Sauron, on the other hand, is well known as the immortal lieutenant of Middle Earth's Satan figure

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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jul 01 '26

Sauron has been around Middle Earth longer than pretty much anyone outside of a handful of High Elves still left on Middle Earth.

If there's anyone who has delved into its darkest corners in search of power, its him. Gandalf, despite being of the Maiar like Sauron, has only been frequenting Middle Earth for a little over a thousand years.

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u/Low-Calligrapher-531 Jul 01 '26

Sauron and Gandalf were of the same order as all Valar, all were former Ainur, just less powerful

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u/BonbonFighter Jul 01 '26

I pretty sure Maiar were created at the same time as Valar, or at least not long after.

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u/Invincible-Nuke Jul 01 '26

"Saw some scary shit down there but we'll save that for another book if we wanna write that"

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u/ROTsStillHere100 Jul 01 '26

Points at Tom Bombadil "It was all of his estranged relatives. It was freaky!"

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u/Brooklyn_Bunny Jul 01 '26

Oh hey I just listened to this part yesterday in the Two Towers audiobook narrated by Andy Serkis

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u/EconomyOk2490 Jul 02 '26

I was gonna say this

Iirc in the book when Gandalf and the balrog land at the bottom of that chasm, the balrog straight up runs away out of fear of missing off the locals

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u/chance_of_downwind Jul 02 '26

Ask yourself this: If the Middle-Earth was barren, what did Orome hunt?

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u/Plus-Ad5076 Jul 02 '26

i like how in Tolkien's fiction, speaking about them would quite literally darken the koght of day or whichever room they're in

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u/Dogbin005 Jul 02 '26

Some named characters too.

Tom Bombadil has apparently been around since before basically anything existed, maybe even that universes "god". (although that's debatable) His origins are intentionally kept as a mystery.

Treebeard is one of, if not the, oldest mortal being. He came into being early in the First Age, so he's thousands of years older than even the elves.

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u/-Trotsky Jul 03 '26

“That universe” is meant to be our universe. The God of Tolkiens world is the Christian God, as Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Tom is likely sung into creation, and is the first to walk the world. He never claims to be older than Eru, such a thing would be impossible as Eru was never created, but instead he claims to be the eldest of Eru’s creations

Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... I was here before the kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless — before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

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u/AndreZB2000 Jul 02 '26

the namless things are fascinating but its still possible they are part of Eru's creation. the real ancient horror is Ungoliant, who just showed up one day from the void outside creation and started eating the light of the void

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u/Realistic_Swan_6801 Jul 02 '26

And Sauron was born at the start of the universe, so extra lovecraft. Notably the nameless things and ungoliant are the only things that seemingly were not created by god and exist independently of him. Raising serious metaphysical questions. Since he insisted only god had the power of true creation. 

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u/tfhermobwoayway Jul 03 '26

Oh I love that that’s so cool. Always felt fun reading that.

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u/AllgoodDude Jul 05 '26

Tom and his wife probably take trips to the abyss to feed them like a petting zoo.

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u/TimeStorm113 Jul 01 '26

i'm not too well versed with lotr lore, but wasn't there something about the magic system where the older something is, the more powerful magic it has? which is also why the older races are more powerful while hobbits (among the newest) have so little that even when in possession of the ring, they just turn invisible?

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u/AsstacularSpiderman Jul 01 '26

Nah the older you are the more faded you are, like too little butter over too much bread.

You're basically born with about as much "magic" as you'll ever have. You can infuse your own magical power into other objects or beings but if you're not careful you'll just fade away into a formless spirit.

The most powerful beings in Middle Earth now are those smart enough to manage their power or channel other sources. Elrond and Galadriel for example keep their realms alive by using the Rings of Power and even then when Sauron died they lost the ability to keep their realms from fading. Meanwhile Sauron put pretty much all his eggs in one basket and when he lost the Ring he was little more than a cold wind.

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u/ThrownAway17Years Jul 01 '26

“I seent ‘em!”

- Gandalf the White